Scottish⑦Canuck Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 I always feel sad when a major tournament ends... I'll be stuck for things to watch all Summer. Can't wait until WC 2014. When Scotland enter the World stage again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefCon1 Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 WOOHOO VIVA ESPANA!! The best team in the world and it seems no team can match them. Euro 2008 winner, World cup 2010 winner and Euro 2012 winner and probably will be 2014 World cup winner. I really did feel bad for Pirlo and Di Natalie along with Bonucci. Italy did pretty well in the tourney and I was actually scared that we would lose to them. I predicted this final before the tourney even started and thank god Spain won. The depth that Spain has is unmatched. Fernando Torres, David Villa, Puyol, David Silva, Cesc Fabregas, Sergio Ramos, Pique, Xavi Hernandez, Iniesta, Alonso, Casillas, Jordi Alba (young phenom going to Barcelona), Pedro ect. I can't see any team beating them in World cup 2014, since they've got the taste of winning and have kept rolling. Vincente is a brilliant coach and tactician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefCon1 Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Do any of these pansies get fined for any of these ridiculous dives? I know soccer fans will say "it's part of the game". I can't accept that. It's a disgrace. Perfect example is dude from Italy today, I think his name was Cassano maybe? 42nd minute or so, he went down like he was shot in the leg by a 44 magnum and was hardly grazed. How can you fans just look past this crap? Just like those pansy hockey players who dive? IF you don't like to look past diving and whining, then don't watch soccer, basketball and hockey. Go watch golf, maybe it will be more up your alley. Seriously am so sick of people who keep complaining about diving whether its in soccer or hockey. Let it go man, do you watch the games to see if anyone dives or do you just watch it for the entertainment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InTo ThE WiLD Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Just like those pansy hockey players who dive? IF you don't like to look past diving and whining, then don't watch soccer, basketball and hockey. Go watch golf, maybe it will be more up your alley. Seriously am so sick of people who keep complaining about diving whether its in soccer or hockey. Let it go man, do you watch the games to see if anyone dives or do you just watch it for the entertainment? C'mon let's not compare soccer to men sports :D sorry couldn't resist, that was my trolling of the day have fun guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BuckFoston Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Spain's reign as champions are over. Italia are winning the Euro. THAT IS ALL called it. p.s. italy will win vs. spain Neener neener neener Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AV. Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Well Euros have come and gone. Transfers and domestic play in about another month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefCon1 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 C'mon let's not compare soccer to men sports :D sorry couldn't resist, that was my trolling of the day have fun guys C. Ronaldo is tougher than Alexander Semin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imuzi Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Looking forward to the coming Liverpool season. Especially if they snag Gaston Ramirez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topbananas Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Looking forward to the coming Liverpool season. Me too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InTo ThE WiLD Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) C. Ronaldo is tougher than Alexander Semin not at all , even though Semin is ridiculous , he still plays hockey and takes hits on a regular basis , unlike C. Ronaldo who keeps throwing himself on the ground and fakes injuries to try to get whistles .... Edited July 2, 2012 by InTo ThE WiLD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topbananas Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Another interesting read re Rangers: http://www.thefootballlife.co.uk/post/21870580357/the-hidden-cost-of-rangers The hidden cost of Rangers I’ve been thinking this week. Thinking about a tweet, about a court case. The case is about Fenerbahce suing UEFA and the Turkish FA following their expulsion from the Champions League this season. If they win, they could be in line for up to £39m in compensation. If they win, then the exact same could happen to Rangers. After years of endemic cheating that has fixed the Scottish game, every club in Scotland now knows that Rangers have swindled them out of money. First of all, we need to look at trophies since EBTs started. Fortunately, someone has already done this for me. On the basis that every Rangers side since the probable start of EBTs from the early Murray years has contained ineligible players and that everyone would go up a place, the titles would go to the following (Changes from the Rangers wins are in white text): What this doesn’t take into account is the clubs who qualified for Europe via the league. This is particularly important as, of course, Rangers cheating doesn’t just affect titles, it affects European Qualification as well. Unfortunately, no-one has compiled one of these for me so please forgive any slight inaccuracies as I compile this myself. Teams in bold are those who would either a) have moved to a “better” Cup or got into Europe at all only at the expense of Rangers So, firstly, in 88-89, Aberdeen would have qualified for the European Cup (as it was), Celtic would still have been in the Cup Winner’s Cup and Dundee United, Hibs and Hearts would have been in the UEFA Cup. In 89-90, Aberdeen would have been in the European Cup, Celtic would have been in the Cup Winners Cup and the UEFA Cup places would have gone (as they did) to Dundee United and Hearts. In 90-91, Aberdeen would have been in the European Cup, Celtic and Dundee United in the UEFA Cup and Motherwell in the Cup Winners Cup 91-92 would be Hearts in the European Cup, Airdrie in the Cup Winners Cup and Celtic and Hibs in the UEFA Cup. 92-93 would bring Aberdeen back into the European Cup, Celtic and Dundee United in the UEFA Cup. The Cup Winners Cup would be really interesting, as Aberdeen would have actually won the treble that year without Rangers but, as they won the league, the Cup Winners Cup place would have gone to Hearts, beaten by Rangers in the Semi. 93-94? Motherwell in the Champions League. Dundee United would still be in the Cup Winners Cup. Now, the UEFA cup is a bit more complicated as Celtic won the cup but weren’t in the CWC, which I assume is something to do with us being nearly bankrupt, but as I was only 8 at the time, perhaps someone more experienced could give me an idea of what happened. On that basis, I’m going to exclude Celtic from the UEFA Cup, meaning Aberdeen and Hibs would take those places. 94-95 would have Motherwell in the Champions League once more, Celtic in the Cup Winners Cup and Hibs and Raith in the UEFA Cup. 95-96 would have Celtic in the Champions League, Hearts in the Cup Winners Cup and Aberdeen and Hibs in the UEFA cup. 96-97 - Celtic in the Champions League again, Dundee United and Hearts in the UEFA cup and Killie in the Cup Winners Cup 97-98, the last season before the SPL, would keep Celtic in the Champions League, Hearts in the Cup Winners Cup and Killie and St Johnstone in the UEFA Cup 98-99 was the first season of the SPL and the first season without the Cup Winners Cup. Celtic would be in the Champions League with St Johnstone, Killie and Dundee in the UEFA Cup 99-00 would ring in the millennium with Celtic in the Champions League and Hearts and Motherwell in the UEFA Cup 00-01 was Celtic’s treble winning year, with them in the Champions League once more joined in that competition by Hibs. Killie and Hearts would be in the UEFA Cup. 01-02 would have Celtic in the Champions League once more, with Livingston, Aberdeen and Hearts in the UEFA Cup. 02-03 would have Celtic and Hearts in the Champions League, with Killie and Dundee in the UEFA Cup 03-04 would have Celtic and Hearts in the Champions League again, Dunfermline and Dundee United in the Uefa Cup. 04-05 would give Celtic and Hibs the chance in the Champions League and Aberdeen and Dundee United in the UEFA Cup. 05-06 would be almost unchanged with Celtic and Hearts in the Champions League. Hibs would be promoted from the Intertoto cup to join Gretna in the UEFA Cup 06-07 would get Celtic and Aberdeen in the Champions League, with Hearts and Dunfermline in the UEFA Cup. 07-08 gave Celtic and Motherwell their chance in the Champions League, with Aberdeen and Queen of the South in the UEFA Cup The 08-09 season would have resulted in Celtic and Hearts in the Champions League with Aberdeen, Dundee United, Motherwell and Falkirk in the Europa League - due to fair play, Scotland gained places in the Europa League for this season. 09-10 would have Celtic and Dundee United in the Champions League. Hibs, Motherwell and Hearts would be in the Europa League. Finally, to bring us up to date, the 10-11 season would have resulted in Celtic in the Champions League and Hearts, Dundee United and Killie in the Europa League. Right, in the league of the shafted, this means that Celtic would benefit in 5 seasons, Aberdeen and Dundee United in 6 seasons, Hibs in 7 seasons, Hearts in a staggering 11 seasons, Killie twice, Dundee and St Johnstone once and Motherwell thrice. To be clear, this does not take into account instances in which teams were moved to a more advanced round of a competition because of Rangers being omitted. That would result in Celtic’s standing being far higher owing to the amount of times they would have entered the Champions League later - this would add another 2 seasons of Champions League football. Now to the more important numbers. All of these figures are educated guesses, some with more education than others! To be clear, in all the below calculations I am not counting domestic prize money. For the most educated, we have Celtic. They would have benefitted to the tune of 1 Cup Winners Cup run and 7 Champions League runs. The easiest guess that can be made is on ticket money which, over the years, would probably equate to £2m per home game. Assuming Celtic would have 3 home games in Europe each season (or an average of being in the group stages of the CL each season), we are talking about an extra £48million in revenue straight away. This, I must point out, is the bare minimum of Celtic’s achievement possibility. Considering their consistent acheivement of getting past Xmas in Europe in the first decade of this century, we can safely assume that Celtic’s average achievement would be an extra home game on top of that, making an extra £16million for the club. The second element is Champions League prize money. This has stayed fairly static for a while now at about £4million a season for group qualification alone. This would add an extra £28million to the clubs coffers based on their minimum achievement possibility. The last European element is that of Champions League TV money. This is very difficult to calculate as it is split in some cases and is dependent on progress. However, if we work on the assumption that, in most seasons, Celtic would be the only Scottish representative in the group stages, we can work from Rangers’ last accounts to get a figure of £14.6million per season in revenue. Of course, as time has gone on, this figure has risen over the years, as such £14.6 million is probably the upper limit of TV revenue. However, using it as a guide, we can fairly safely say that Celtic would have earned £10 million a season extra and still be on the low side. That, in itself, is £70 million. Finally, we would have increased sponsorship revenue, merchandise revenue and match-day revenue to take into account. This is a bit beyond me to work out I’m afraid, but £250,000 per home game seems reasonable, so let’s say this gives us £7million. Again, this is probably on the low side of things. All in all, for Celtic, before increased domestic revenues are taken into account (from higher placed prize money and additional cup games), we are left with a figure of £169 million of revenue that Celtic have lost as a direct result of Rangers’ EBT scam. To put that into perspective, that is an entire £35 million more than Rangers’ entire debt currently. Winners of the SPL (Shafted Premier League) were Hearts, who missed out on 4 Champions League shots and 7 UEFA cup shots. Calculating Hearts’ losses is very difficult because of one important variable - if they had qualified for the Champions League groups Hearts likely would have used Murrayfield as their home ground, particularly for larger games. Giving Hearts 4 chances in the preliminary rounds would lead me to believe a minimum performance potential of 1 Champions League group stage run is a viable prospect and this would also be their realistic performance potential. Even not selling out Murrayfield would earn Hearts £1m a game in ticket sales. Based on the prize money from Celtic’s figures, we can give them £4million in group prize money and, for being in the qualifying rounds thrice, an extra £2million. TV revenue would likely bring them an extra £5million, meaning that we have a figure of £14million before accounting for ticket sales at Tynecastle which, based even on only 1 home game a season, would likely net £500k per game, giving them an extra £5 million. As they would likely not be knocked out in the first round on every occasion, we can add another £6million to that even as minimum performance potential. We are, therefore, at £25 million prior to additonal match day, merch, sponsors and domestic revenues. As Hearts have been disadvantaged by Rangers so much, we could potentially be taking about this figure being above £10 million. 2 clubs in, and Rangers debt to other Scottish clubs has already topped the enormous figure of £200 million. If anyone else would like to take over this project, or make the figures slightly more accurate, I, and I’m sure many other football fans would be very grateful to you. However, based even on this less than complete piece, I am afraid to say that I imagine this bill will hit well over a £250 million. The worst thing about all of this is that the Scottish clubs in administration, those who no longer exist such as Gretna and Clydebank could have been saved many times over by these revenues that they have missed out upon. If anyone does take this into the courts, then there is a hell of a lot of money to be made and it will be interesting to see what happens if someone does. EDIT - I will try to finish this off bit by bit: Aberdeen were massively impaired by missing out on 5 potential Champions League/European Cup runs and 1 Europa League run. There are 2 things to take into account with their figures, though. The first is that their European Cup runs are almost exclusively before the European cup became the cash cow it is today. Their prize money and TV revenue will be vastly below that Celtic or Hearts could hope to achieve. The second is that, as a quirk of the times, this would have meant Aberdeen would probably have been more successful in Europe due to the knockout only process. For TV revenue and prize money, that would probably only total about £1 million per season together based on Aberdeen getting knocked out straight away, with about £300k per game earned from tickets. So the bare minimum Aberdeen could get would be a total of around £6.5million. The realistic performance potential is far different. While Aberdeen probably would have been knocked out straight away in their only potential modern era Champions League run, they would probably have gotten through at least 2 rounds on each occasion back in the day. This would give them about £1m in ticket sales (on 3 homes games, with prices increasing for each one as they progress) and £1.5million a season in ticket sales, making £10million, before counting their modern era run which, even if it were only one game long, would have netted the Dons an extra £1.5 million in total. For their one UEFA cup run, we can add another £500k to the total even if it was only 1 match long. This leaves Aberdeen’s realistic performance potential based on European prize money, ticketing and prize money alone at about £12million. We can safely add another £4m to this figure for domestic prize money (this is very much on the low side of things, though), another £2m for additional match day revenues, sponsorship and merchandising. Crucially, and unlike Hearts and Celtic, the residual impact to Aberdeen’s success would have had the greatest impact. Half a decade of dominating the SPL in the early 90’s would have probably put an extra 1,000 on top of their average attendance. Even at a paltry £15 per ticket, this would add somewhere in the region of £5 million to Aberdeen’s revenues (assuming a gradual rise in attendance and for slight variance) over the 2 decade span in question. The reason this would apply less to Hearts and Celtic is that Celtic, as the dominant team in the latter part of this period, have a very high attendance anyway that is unlikely to be that influenced by a special period of success, and Hearts, by missing out on so many places, have clearly been competitive enough to be certain that even with qualification for Europe on 11 additional seasons, their average gate wouldn’t rise that much. In total, this leaves Aberdeen £23 million out. Dundee Utd are the reverse Aberdeen, missing out on 1 Champions League shot and 5 UEFA Cup/Europa League shots. The Champions League shot is modern era, which would give them the same as Aberdeen at £1.5 million in Prizes & TV money even if it were 1 game long. Their UEFA cup shots came at a time when their realistic performance is easy to predict. Unfortunately, it’s easy to predict as they almost invariably would get knocked out at the first opportunity! I’m going to be a bit kinder than that and let them get through 1 tie and base that as both the minimum and realistic achievement probability. UEFA Cup Prize Money and TV revenue would not top £1.5 million for the entirety of the 5 goes, which means that the real revenue gain would be in ticketing, if Tannadice weren’t considerably smaller than the stadia of the clubs previously covered only making them about £300k per game, only getting 7 games out of their missed shots, making £2.1m in additional ticketing and additional match day revenues, sponsorships and merchandise would total only in the region of £500k. Giving them the same domestic total for prize money as the Dons of £4million would mean that, in total, Dundee Untied are out of pocket to the tune of £9.6million. Motherwell would have 1 modern era CL run, a total of £1.8million for the reasons as above, 1 old era CL run giving about £1m and 1 UEFA cup run, making about £500k. Additional Match-day revenue, merchandise and sponsorship would be about £250k and then there would be the domestic prize money at, once more, about £4m, giving them a total of about £7.5million. For Hibs, read Dundee United. The only difference would be 1 modern era Champions League shot extra, giving an extra £1.8 million in TV money, Prize money and ticketing - their total losses from EBTs are therefore £11.4million Finally, and to rattle them off in short order, Kilmarnock, Dundee and St Johnstone, all of whom would have benefitted solely to UEFA cup runs. Based on each only getting one home game in the competition on each attempt, we can give them a total of £1m between then in ticketing, TV and prize money for Europe - 1/2 to Killie and 1/4 to St Johnstone and Dundee. This is before domestic prize money which I will come on to after the totaliser. That’s Celtic at £169m, Hearts at £35m and Aberdeen at £23m, Hibs at £11.4m, Dundee United at £9.6m and Motherwell at £7.5m and £1m between Killie, St Johnstone and Dundee giving a total of £256.5m. Appendix 1 Domestic Prize money You’ll note that some teams above have it, some don’t. The fact is that every team in the league was disadvantaged in this sense - including clubs such as Falkirk, Partick, Gretna, Hamilton, Dundee and Livingston who have been relegated. The SPL rules state the following: “Fee payments to Clubs, after making deduction and/or adequate provision in accordance with Rule C4.2.2, shall be made as follows:- C4.3.1 The remaining amount of the Commercial Revenues (“the Net Commercial Revenues”) referable to any one Season shall be divided into two tranches as described and paid to the Clubs as set out in the table in Rule C4.3.2; C4.3.2 The tranches referred to in C4.3.1 are: “The Basic Facility Fee Pool”, 48% of the Net Commercial Revenues, which shall be shared equally amongst the Clubs participating in the League during the Season in question; and “The Supplementary Facility Fee Pool”, 52% of the Net Commercial Revenues, which shall be paid to the Clubs participating in the League during the Season in question in accordance with their respective league positions at the end of that Season. League Position vs % Revenue (Basic + Supplementary = Total) 1 4.0% 13.0% 17.0% 2 4.0% 11.0% 15.0% 3 4.0% 5.5% 9.5% 4 4.0% 4.5% 8.5% 5 4.0% 4.0% 8.0% 6 4.0% 3.5% 7.5% 7 4.0% 3.0% 7.0% 8 4.0% 2.5% 6.5% 9 4.0% 2.0% 6.0% 10 4.0% 1.5% 5.5% 11 4.0% 1.0% 5.0% 12 4.0% 0.5% 4.5%” Good luck understanding all that! I am not going to calculate exact figure of what this all means, but basically there is a 13% gap between the top earners and the bottom earners in SPL Revenues, with a special gulf between second and third (or the OF and the rest!). Currently, 100% of this is about £13m per season, so £130k per percentile. Considering the total span of the league is 13%, I’m prepared to accept that the raising of one position is worth about £130k to each team to average things out - some benefit less, some benefit vastly more. The current TV deal is actually a reduction in monies from the last Setanta deal and the deal before that so even considering that TV revenue as a whole is much higher than it was in ‘89, the £130k can be used as a fair average for the entire duration of this. This means that any team who has spent all 23 seasons in the SPL would have been out of pocket to the tune of £3million. For teams such as Hearts who would have found themselves propelled to second, that figure is much higher, and I have tried to include those figures in the calculations above so that they can be counted when they are exceptionally high. Appendix 2 The methodology of removing Rangers As some astute readers have already pointed out, the table above doesn’t calculate based on Rangers fixtures being forfeits, they simply move Rangers out and everyone else up a place, therefore there are at least 2 occasions where the difference in methodology would actually change the winner of the league. I have edited above to clarify what method I am using - that Rangers are ignored and everyone simply goes up a place. If someone has the time to compare and contrast the methods and the results please be my guest. Appendix 3 UEFA Coefficients This isn’t something that’s been pointed out yet but the European places I’m basing things on would be drastically affected were Rangers not in the equation. After all, UEFA cup finals tend to skew the coefficient a bit! My calculations are based on the Scottish UEFA coefficient remaining the same as they actually were, irrespective of the amended performance of Scottish clubs. If anyone can think of any further edits required, please let me know, but for now, after about 6 hours in total of calculations and permutations, I’m off to have a glass of wine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AV. Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_KW4e-CGkE8 Respect + 1 for Casillas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azzy Mahmood Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Dude that's far too much info What gets me is that the newco were allowed to purchase the assets of the 'oldco', rather than said assets defaulting to creditors (basically, HMRC should have taken Ibrox). What a sham. Kudos to Spain too - what a performance. That Jordi Alba is going to push Barca to another level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottish⑦Canuck Posted July 4, 2012 Author Share Posted July 4, 2012 Really FIFA? Really? England are the 4th best team in the world?! What have you been smoking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AV. Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 At least Italy improved on their 12th ranking. Sigh...no Euro, no transfers(yet), football is killing me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azzy Mahmood Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Really FIFA? Really? England are the 4th best team in the world?! What have you been smoking? The only surprise is that Guatemala aren't in the top 10. What a shambolic rankings system Unbelieveable news from Van Persie. Citeh and Juve will be rubbing their hands with anticipation right about now. Also shocked that Sigurdsson signed for Spurs -I thought he had ambition! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugemanskost Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Too much bad news! England is world #4? Van Persie leaving Gunners? Sigurdson to Spurs rather than signing with Reds? Modric to Man U? Barton to Pompey? I hope the 'Caps get Bocanegra now that Rangers are done and banished to Scottish league 3! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topbananas Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Sorry to see Park Ji leave United for QPR. A great servant for the club, always did his job well and never moaned when dropped, sorry, rotated or played out of position. Also one of my favorite United chants too: Park Park, wherever you may be, You eat dogs in your own country, It could be worse, you could be Scouse, Eating a rat in your council house Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topbananas Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Speaking of chants, here is the latest for the Stretford End next season (to the tune of happy and you know it) Have you ever won the double? have you f**k Have you ever won the European Cup? Have you ever won the treble? like Phil and Gary Neville Have you ever won the treble? have you f**k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I R Baboon Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I'm really excited to see what Kagawa can bring to the Man U midfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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