Building a team capable of winning the SC

[48MPHSlapShot]

I think what we're seeing is that anything can happen with regards to regular season performance. At this point it's hard to predict. So I question things like 'the Sedins will for sure see this be a playoff team until retirement' when that wasn't the case so recently. That being said, it's irrelevant. I'm seeing beyond the Sedins and into the inevitable future without them. It's that future that needs to be addressed, and the time to address it is now. I'll leave the how to Benning and Linden. It's their job.

I see nothing to hold onto here in the meantime. A winning culture? Huh? Vets who want to stay, but are ultimately going to leave either by trade or free agency? I mean c'mon. We're well on this track now, so let's just get it done and over with.

Our prospects are fine, getting better, but not there yet.

How we're 'throwing away a year of prospect development' in this inevitable scenario (oh, it's going to happen. The Sedins aren't eternal), is a strange thought. Do you think Chicago was concerned about Keith and Seabrook's development while losing for Toews and Kane? No, I think that these players will actually turn out to be just fine.

That's not what I said. I said that this team wouldn't be a lottery team until the Sedins retired.

Never put words in my mouth.

[DefCon1]

Building a powerhouse team in the cap era cannot be done in the same way as in the past. With the cap playing such a prominent part in teams makeup, it is difficult to hold on to players over the years (unless you overpay or offer NTC's and years)necessary to assemble all the necessary players and have them come together and peak at the same time.

With that, I look at Calgary as an example of what did go wrong when they tried to retool on the fly with Iginla in the lineup. There were mini trades and signings as management tried desperately to assemble a winning team before Iginla declined further. They were not good enough to make a run and not bad enough to get the quality young guns that they boast in their lineup today.

They took a giant leap of faith and let Iginla go as well as trading away other vets and designating themselves to being non contenders for the necessary draft years in order to draft high end talent. It was not too long ago that Vancouver fans were making fun of the lowly Lames as they were called. I am not talking about 5-6 years ago, I am talking about 3 years ago.

Edmonton has done the same and drafted some gems....they are not that far removed from being a powerhouse team again, especially after they draft McDavid this year. They need to add depth to their defense, a sure fire goalie and they will be in the hunt. They have not had the same success as Calgary because it took them longer but they have enough high end talent to get those ingredients through trade.

Vancouver fans are ecstatic at the way Horvat came in and played this year. We drafted him with the #10 pick....unless we are unbelievably lucky this year we won't be getting that type of player at #23. We might get a project who can be that type of player but he will need a few years in the AHL to develop. We have Virtanen at #6 who could very well make the team next year. This is the year when we should be trading vets for picks and stocking the cupboard. While the prospects are developing, fill in the roster spots with FAs' and get those picks 1-5 for a couple of years. At the very least, Vancouver should be packaging our 1st and a vet to move up to grab a sure thing versus a project.

We have had a couple of trips to the final round with the Sedins' but that only happened because Vancouver was bad enough to get those picks. If we had drafted a couple of players at our usual 10th spot as we did for so many years, we would not in all likelihood have enjoyed the success that we all enjoyed.

I have been a fan of the Canucks since day 1 so we are talking about 40 plus years of waiting for a Cup. The times have changed and Vancouver has to adapt to the reality that you are hard pressed to sip from the Cup unless you can get a Crosby, Gaudreau, Hall, McDavid, Webber or S Jones or two. All the whining about us needing a Webber or Doughty on the blueline won't happen with #23 picks. There is a longshot chance that we could get lucky and out think the other 29 teams scouting and GMs and draft a superstar in the 2nd or third round but that is not something that should even be part of a plan to build a winner.

If we were in the position to draft McDavid right now, do you think Vancouver fans would be more excited about that or would they rather be looking forward to getting a 1st round playoff next year? Based upon all our 1st round exits the last few years, I would bet on it being drafting McDavid.

Thats not how you build a cup contender...Do you think the hawks and Kings won by just drafting? You must be delusional because Edmonton should be a dynasty right now with that logic. You need vets, you need good trades, you need good coaches and development and you are right about drafting high for a couple of years. But a team like the Rangers didn't go to the finals by being like Edmonton, they didn't get their best player like McDonagh by tanking and they didn't acquire Nash by using a draft pick. A contender team is built by having a smart and savvy manager up top. If it was all about picks, any idiot off the street could become a manager in the NHL. A prime example of what you suggest is the Oilers and they've been lucky for so many years to draft 1st overall 4 times, yet they are still in the bottom of the standings. You build a winning team through a winning attitude, and instilling that winning mentality to younger players trying to crack our roster. Yes, we lost the first round, but the playoff experience that players like Horvat, Kennins, Bartschi and Lack gained is invaluable.

[DefCon1]

I absolutely agree with your thoughts, but the fans do not own or run the Canucks organization.

The owner wants to make money on his investment, and the only way to do that is to have a competitive team every year or the arena will be empty and the Owner will not make his money.

It may be a sport, but it is definitely driven by the dollars.

End of story.

People who want to get rid of all the vets on the team and bring in a junior A team must be blind or haven't heard of the Oilers. You will never win, if you don't know how to win. Ex. Oilers

I am in favour of how Benning is developing this team and making it younger but still signing vets like Dorsett, Vrbata and Miller to teach the young kids how to win. There is just no point in trading all the vets.

[DefCon1]

Sure the owners would have to bite the bullet for a couple of seasons but I seriously doubt that the building would be empty in the Vancouver hockey crazed city.

If you draft just one player with the talent of Pavel Bure, you would be hard pressed to find game day tickets.

Or put another way, if we didn't make the playoffs this year and were fortunate enough to be drafting McDavid, do you really think the fans would stay away? One thing for sure, another couple of 1st round exits and the fans just might become disinterested.

Playing just to make the playoffs is not a winning environment, it is just treading water to get the gate.

If Edmonton gets the players to fill out their talented team and Calgary continues to shine you might be hard pressed to even make the playoffs especially when you can almost guarantee that LA will be back next year. If you wait too long, your vets will walk as UFAs or retire and then you are back on 1st base looking to steal.

how do you think we got Bure? Hint: he wasn't even a 1st overall pick, neither were Lidstrom, Yzerman, Hasek, etc. etc.

Also if the fans become disinterested with a 1st round exit, you think they would be excited with missing the playoffs for 10 years? This is a city that had its sold out streak ended by missing a playoff season, the team would probably be in Seattle or Quebec with a 10 year drought and bad Canadian dollar.

[TOMapleLaughs]

I'll ask again how do you suppose we accelerate? Throwing NTC asside do You really think trading bieska, hammer or Higgins makes this team worse?

Also are the Hawks the same team had the drafted Johnson and turris instead of Kane and toews. The very fact that they pick both players in just plain luck. Without that luck (if they truly) did purposely tank yes they would have just wasted years. The already wasted the year prior drafting barker 3rd overall.

Not only would Canucks have to suck (by playing there ahl club) they have to get lucky that the player they draft turns out to be the RUGHT player. Something you just can't understand. Yes there's are lots of good players in the top five. But there is a big difference between good and they type that win championships. I've already showed you the that the stats are not in your favour. For every one toews type player picked 3rd overall there 6 turris or barkers type players picked.

The right player will only be made available under certain conditions. Those conditions aren't met by twiddling your fingers on a rebuild or pretending that patchwork trades and signings are the answer. So I propose NOT assembling a team with the patchwork trades and signings we've seen in the Benning era so far and instead focus on bringing in the youth, fully accepting the rebuild process like we should be doing. But really, it doesn't matter what you or I want, does it? Benning and Linden are making the calls.

You hear a lot of the 'Detroit method' on here. That we should be emulating them. Well, what are they doing? They're not going out of their way to make trades and signings, but they're holding onto key vets and bringing in youth. One thing's clear, we're not Detroit. We have to find our own way. We have to remember that our best players ever were brought to us via the draft, with those oh noes high picks.

That's not what I said. I said that this team wouldn't be a lottery team until the Sedins retired.

Never put words in my mouth.

Considering changes to the lottery system put in place, this belief is likely false. But we will see.

[DefCon1]

Yup Calgary sure tainted their young guys by tanking.

Don't forget that Calgary also brought in guys like Hiller, Hudler, Engelland and avoided trading Giordano while getting a coach like Bob Hartly who knows how to win. They never tried to tank like buffalo and Edmonton and they will be better off for it in the future. If Edmonton ever becomes good, it would be because they eventually lucked out not because they did anything right and they probably still won't win a cup.

[48MPHSlapShot]

how do you think we got Bure? Hint: he wasn't even a 1st overall pick, neither were Lidstrom, Yzerman, Hasek, etc. etc.

Also if the fans become disinterested with a 1st round exit, you think they would be excited with missing the playoffs for 10 years? This is a city that had its sold out streak ended by missing a playoff season, the team would probably be in Seattle or Quebec with a 10 year drought and bad Canadian dollar.

Absolutely true. The unfortunate truth is that, unlike TO or Montreal, this fanbase is fickle, and won't support the team through a full on rebuild. This franchise has to be able to sustain itself while we build a contender, and that means putting a competitive product on the ice each and every year. If we were to go through even a few years of being a cellar dweller, it could do irreparable harm to the franchise.

[DefCon1]

There is only a two year window before the Sedins' contracts are up. If you don't have players of that calibre by then, you won't have to worry about calling it tanking. Throw in the fact that Bieksa and/or Hamhuis, Burrows and Higgins will probably have moved on by then, you better count on your #23 picks being ready. That is not wishful thinking, that is reality.

#23 pick? Don't worry, by that time we would already have the likes of Virtanen, Cassels, McCann, Baertschi, Subban, Trymakin, Clendenning, Demko and Markstrom in the lineup with youngsters like Horvat, Kennins, Tanev and Edler showing them the ropes. Plus we would have a big room under the cap to add great UFA players like how we signed Vrbata and Hamhuis. Afterall, Minessota didn't draft Suter or Parise.

Also, we didn't need to tank to get a player like Horvat or even Kesler. If you have a good scouting team and a good development system, you can make players like Datsyuk or Zetterberg. Teams that tank and try to get the #1 overall picks are the teams that take the easy route of managing the team while smart teams like Detroit take their time to develop their players and their team. Which model do you like to follow? Edmonton's model of team building or Detroit's model?

[48MPHSlapShot]

Again, all of this discussion is a moot point. Benning isn't tanking.

[DefCon1]

LuckyLager, look up Mario Lemieux, Crosby and now McDavid. Are you telling me that Pittsburgh didn't build a winning team through tanking? Are you trying to tell me that Vancouver has a better chance at winning the Cup than Edmonton over the next 4 years? Are you trying to tell me that tanking has hurt Calgary's chances of winning a Cup?

Those are generational players and a team like Edmonton wasn't even the 1st or 2nd worst team that got him, they were the 3rd worst team and lucked out for crying out loud. Pittsburgh and Edmonton got lucky in the lottery to get generational players, so tell me how Vancouver could create a formula for lucky drafts? Also Calgary never tried to tank and they never drafted 1st overall but they seem to be light years ahead of a team like Edmonton even thought they only had a few bad seasons.

Now tell me how Pittsburgh is doing once their luck ran out? They won a cup and disappeared while teams like the Hawks are still in the playoffs. So I guess tanking and drafting 1st overall isn't the only thing to make a team successful, is it?

[DefCon1]

Again, all of this discussion is a moot point. Benning isn't tanking.

Thank god he seems to have a brain unlike most of the posters here who think tanking is the formula to winning ever since Oilers lucked out in the lottery. So many shortsighted people that would probably jump off the bandwagon and root for another team if this team ever became like Edmonton.

[DefCon1]

Calgary drafts 15th Canucks draft 23. Most scouts feel there is a drop off after 16-20

Calgary has 2 seconds and 2 thirds. Canucks don't have a pick in either round.

That can change if Benning decides to go to the trade route and get another first round pick.

[48MPHSlapShot]

Thank god he seems to have a brain unlike most of the posters here who think tanking is the formula to winning ever since Oilers lucked out in the lottery. So many shortsighted people that would probably jump off the bandwagon and root for another team if this team ever became like Edmonton.

To be honest, I would probably leap off of the bandwagon myself. I would never support a tank, and I wouldn't put another cent into Aquilinis bank account either.

Hell, I would probably dissuade others from supporting the team as well if they were to go into full on tank mode.

[DefCon1]

Did they really in the big picture?

Good regular season yes but the same thing for 4 years now...manhandled and ineffective in the first round of the playoffs.

There is a message in there somewhere.

I should also make a point which is just a personal one for me but there might be some in agreement. Knowing that this core is past is prime and knowing they simply cant get it done in the playoffs while also getting pushed around....from an entertainment value I am just tired of the same old same old. same players, same soft team that needs more size and speed year after year now. The growing empty seats at Rogers seem to indicate others feel the same way.

In the big picture, some of our younger players like Horvat and Lack got to experience what playoff pressure is. Yes, we still have old veterans on this team, but what you don't get is that we are slowly adding young players and slowly teaching them how to play in the NHL. Now whether we choose to go this route or Edmonton/Buffalo route, both will take a long time in order to build a cup contender again. Also, the growing empty seats at Rogers arena indicates that we have a lot of bandwagon and casual fans that only attend when the team is making a push for a cup run, it doesn't indicate entertainment value, team building philosophy or something else.

[DefCon1]

To be honest, I would probably leap off of the bandwagon myself. I would never support a tank, and I wouldn't put another cent into Aquilinis bank account either.

Hell, I would probably dissuade others from supporting the team as well if they were to go into full on tank mode.

I have to agree with you and I would be the same way. I don't support any team tanking and that is why I hate Edmonton and Buffalo. I hope Edmonton never wins a cup with McDavid on their roster because I hate the ideology of tanking. I really hope NHL introduces a relegation system that relegates the NHL team with the worst record to the AHL in order to discourage tanking. Imagine how Oilers management would change their strategy if that type of system was implemented.

[48MPHSlapShot]

I have to agree with you and I would be the same way. I don't support any team tanking and that is why I hate Edmonton and Buffalo. I hope Edmonton never wins a cup with McDavid on their roster because I hate the ideology of tanking. I really hope NHL introduces a relegation system that relegates the NHL team with the worst record to the AHL in order to discourage tanking. Imagine how Oilers management would change their strategy if that type of system was implemented.

That would be great! It's probably not a tangible option, but if something like that were implemented I would support it 100%. Just the idea of purposely putting a bad product onto the ice with the intention of being one of the worst teams in the league is sickening IMHO. Selling assets at the deadline is one thing, but entering a season with the intention of tanking is going too far and goes against every fiber of my being.

I give Buffalo more of a pass because they have at least attempted to put a decent product on the ice fairly recently. I wouldn't lose any sleep if Edmonton lost their franchise though. The way they've gone about business makes me absolutely sick to my stomach. It would make me happy beyond belief if McDavid pulled a Lindros and refused to play for the Oilers.

[Mathew Barzal]

https://m.reddit.com/r/canucks/comments/3405bp/jim_benning_is_a_bad_gm_and_heres_why/

We won't win a cup until Benning is fired.

This right here speaks to me.

The "Meat and Potatoes" philosophy

It's very discouraging to see that we have a GM who is still living in the 1970's. Wake up Jim, skill and speed is what wins games in today's NHL, not size.

There's nothing wrong with wanting size on your team, but to actively seek it out and disregard skill and speed is just plain stupid.

Benning has demonstrated (through his drafting of Virtanen over Ehlers/Nylander, all of the draft picks he made on the second day of the draft, his targeting of Sbisa in the Kesler deal, and his overpayments of Sbisa and Dorsett) that he only has eyes for size, and everything else has very little value to him.

This "Meat and Potatoes" throwback philosophy doesn't stop there though. In a league where advanced stats and analytics are increasingly becoming more important, Benning was quick to denounce their use, dismissing them for "not being able to measure heart and character."

His inability to comprehend advanced stats explains why he signed Sbisa to that ridiculous extension, considering that advanced stats peg Sbisa as one of the worst five defenceman in the NHL over the past few seasons.

I'm not completely convinced yet, but it does look 'so far' like Benning has a fetish for bigger players. He wants that LA/ Boston model where the team bullies the others into submission.

What I only guess is running through his head, is that he's drafting NHL ready 'size' to help our current core compete, and when they start falling off he'll draft the talent to come through for the next generation.

What I can only hope ISN'T running through his head is that our current pool of prospects is sufficient to replace the current core. If that's the case, we're indefinitely &^@#ed.

[bluesman60]

CupLess44 I stand corrected, you are absolutely right....Calgary has 15th and Vancouver 23rd.

[bluesman60]

I am quite aware that Bure was not a 1st round pick. His pick in the 6th round resulted in claims that he was not an eligible player for the draft but Vancouver won the day.

You mention Lidstrom etc.....what about Mario Lemieux, Lindros, Crosby, Malkin etc.

Your odds of winning a Cup are a lot better with those types of players on your team than without.

It is probably a lot harder to find gold like Pavel Bure with late round picks too. Teams have bigger scouting teams than in the past and have instant access to stats on a player compared to the past. It is a lot tougher to hoodwink the other 29 GMs now and throw in the cap and the high tech draft becomes more complicated than ever before.

In the 70s,80's and 90's, big money teams like the Rangers just threw money around and outbid everyone else in order to buy a winner. That can't happen now that there is a cap so dealing with what happened in the past becomes less relevant moving forward.

Those teams that adapt will contend and those that stick to yesterdays plan will fade.

[bluesman60]

maybe someday, the NHL will make the draft lottery apply to the 2nd round onwards and every team will have an equal shot at the 1st overall pick. That would make tanking redundant to get the 1st overall pick.