Toews Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 4 minutes ago, WhoseTruckWasIt said: Well, that's a fair point, but the poster did say that "true fans" will want their team to lose. Some fans see it that way, and I think they are really wrong. They also don't fit my definition of fans - but I didn't bring that into it. I wasn't responding to the other poster though. I responded to the poster that said it was a "travesty". But why is it a travesty when the NHL has given the fans a reason to cheer against their team. The Devils-Penguins game that decided the fate of Lemieux, are you going to say that the Pittsburgh fans that rooted for the Devils that day aren't really fans? Losing meant picking a generational talent, winning meant picking a significantly lesser talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Toews said: Not everyone is content with mediocrity though. I don't see why that is such a "travesty". Yeah, and apparently losing is what makes others content. Imagine your kid's soccer team is playing its last game of the season, and if they lose they will get extra $ or new uniforms next season due to a league sympathy rule. Do you cheer for them to lose? Or do you be a two-faced fraud and pretend to cheer for them but under your breath hope your kid and his team fail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoseTruckWasIt Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 7 minutes ago, Gooseberries said: The cap was introduced in 2005. Pens won their fist in cap Era in 2009. Chicago in 2010. Regardless. Of the past 18 first overall picks. only 3 have helped their team to a cup. Crosby Kane Fleury (lol) Once you remove fleury it's really only 2. So 2 or 3 in almost 20 years... Thanks for the history lesson. Yeah, they won in the cap era, but what I mean is that they did their supposed tanking in the pre-cap era - and of course, it wasn't tanking as they were trying to be as competitive as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 1 minute ago, Toews said: I wasn't responding to the other poster though. I responded to the poster that said it was a "travesty". But why is it a travesty when the NHL has given the fans a reason to cheer against their team. The Devils-Penguins game that decided the fate of Lemieux, are you going to say that the Pittsburgh fans that rooted for the Devils that day aren't really fans? Losing meant picking a generational talent, winning meant picking a significantly lesser talent. Fallacious and irrelevant. First off, the lottery precludes any real purpose in losing now. Second, there are no generational talents in this draft nor others in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Just now, Hutton Wink said: Yeah, and apparently losing is what makes others content. Imagine your kid's soccer team is playing its last game of the season, and if they lose they will get extra $ or new uniforms next season due to a league sympathy rule. Do you cheer for them to lose? Or do you be a two-faced fraud and pretend to cheer for them but under your breath hope your kid and his team fail? Don't have kids, and no interest in raising any. Come up with another scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoseTruckWasIt Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 4 minutes ago, Toews said: I wasn't responding to the other poster though. I responded to the poster that said it was a "travesty". But why is it a travesty when the NHL has given the fans a reason to cheer against their team. The Devils-Penguins game that decided the fate of Lemieux, are you going to say that the Pittsburgh fans that rooted for the Devils that day aren't really fans? Losing meant picking a generational talent, winning meant picking a significantly lesser talent. Well here I agree. The league needs to change the rule. I think it should be an even draw among teams that miss the playoffs, even if it means that LA could land Laine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB5 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 2 hours ago, hlinkas wrister said: The real travesty is "fans" who hope for their own team to lose. I'd give this comment 200 +'s if I could. Since this team is not going to get the number 1 or number 2 draft pick no matter what then I would rather see some good hockey be played and count on the management of the team to find a good player in the draft. This draft is a bit of a crap shoot anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, Toews said: Don't have kids, and no interest in raising any. Come up with another scenario. I don't either, that's not the point. Make it your friend's team, nephew's, whoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoseTruckWasIt Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, Toews said: Don't have kids, and no interest in raising any. Come up with another scenario. Have you seen Major League? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo fan Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Excited to see Reid play - hope he can make an impact. I always cheer for this time - I don't always expect them to win - but I do want to see them leave everything on the ice. I think the Jackets are gonna come out hard and we never seem to get our feet moving in the first period - I wonder why that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Just now, Hutton Wink said: Fallacious and irrelevant. First off, the lottery precludes any real purpose in losing now. Second, there are no generational talents in this draft nor others in the near future. You should read the entire conversation. My point is that there is nothing wrong with cheering against your team when there is an incentive provided to lose. Some others think it makes you less of a fan. The Penguins fans cheering against their own team so that they could draft Lemieux were still fans. They recognized that the best chance for their team to improve was to draft Mario Lemieux. The prize may not be the same but you have to recognize that the draft is an incentive and some fans seem to prefer this avenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, Toews said: You should read the entire conversation. And you completely ignored the facts and context. Quote there is nothing wrong with cheering against your team That's enough right there, regardless of any so-called "qualifiers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 4 minutes ago, WhoseTruckWasIt said: Well here I agree. The league needs to change the rule. I think it should be an even draw among teams that miss the playoffs, even if it means that LA could land Laine. My point in this whole thread has simply been if you incentivize losing then you cannot blame fans for cheering for losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB5 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, Toews said: You should read the entire conversation. My point is that there is nothing wrong with cheering against your team when there is an incentive provided to lose. Some others think it makes you less of a fan. The Penguins fans cheering against their own team so that they could draft Lemieux were still fans. They recognized that the best chance for their team to improve was to draft Mario Lemieux. The prize may not be the same but you have to recognize that the draft is an incentive and some fans seem to prefer this avenue. Ottawa tanked so badly and so obviously to draft first overall many years ago that the league was prompted to introduce v 1.0 of a lottery. Joke was on them though, they got Daigle. Remember "Fail for Nail"? Should be "Fail with Nail".. Point is that this draft is not overly strong, we may end up just as well off with any of Patrick, Tippet Vesalainen, Comtois etc. etc. The Canucks scouting will certainly find their diamond in the mix somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoseTruckWasIt Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 1 minute ago, Toews said: My point in this whole thread has simply been if you incentivize losing then you cannot blame fans for cheering for losses. I find it pretty easy to blame them, because I don't think that they are into it for the right reasons. Also, it has been shown to be fallacious as losing guarantees nothing. Players taken outside of the top ten dominate the league. But yes, I totally see your point and yes it is logical. It may be a bunt, but it is a fair ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 1 minute ago, Hutton Wink said: And you completely ignored the facts and context. That's enough right there, regardless of any so-called "qualifiers". No actually you have failed to grasp the context because you did not read the entire conversation. The OP said that cheering against your team is a "travesty". My opinion was that you cannot blame fans for cheering for losses when there is an incentive to lose. I picked the Lemieux example specifically to illustrate what providing an incentive to lose can do to fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoseTruckWasIt Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 12 minutes ago, Bo fan said: Excited to see Reid play - hope he can make an impact. I always cheer for this time - I don't always expect them to win - but I do want to see them leave everything on the ice. I think the Jackets are gonna come out hard and we never seem to get our feet moving in the first period - I wonder why that is. I'm excited to see all the complaints about his ice time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 1 minute ago, GarthButcher5 said: Ottawa tanked so badly and so obviously to draft first overall many years ago that the league was prompted to introduce v 1.0 of a lottery. Joke was on them though, they got Daigle. Remember "Fail for Nail"? Should be "Fail with Nail".. Point is that this draft is not overly strong, we may end up just as well off with any of Patrick, Tippet Vesalainen, Comtois etc. etc. The Canucks scouting will certainly find their diamond in the mix somewhere. I am not advocating for a tank this year either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaBamba Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 These integrity police are driving me nuts. If a guy figures the season is a wash and he would sooner finish lower in the standings for a higher draft pick then so be it. If you are so stunned that you cannot see the logic in that, that's your problem. Just because someone has a different view doesn't make you awesome and the other guy a piece of garbage. I personally don't care. Stubborn Jim already told the media on multiple occasions that he isn't trading any of his vets with NTC/ expired contracts. The draft also sucks. But I'm smart enough to see the logic behind wanting your team to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoseTruckWasIt Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 1 minute ago, LaBamba said: These integrity police are driving me nuts. If a guy figures the season is a wash and he would sooner finish lower in the standings for a higher draft pick then so be it. If you are so stunned that you cannot see the logic in that, that's your problem. Just because someone has a different view doesn't make you awesome and the other guy a piece of garbage. I personally don't care. Stubborn Jim already told the media on multiple occasions that he isn't trading any of his vets with NTC/ expired contracts. The draft also sucks. But I'm smart enough to see the logic behind wanting your team to lose. It may be logical, but it has no heart. Think Soviet communism. And what's wrong with thinking that you're awesome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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