Best All-Time Defenseman Round 8

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, Petey_BOI said:

im just saying the elite of the past had different level of competition as compared the competition of now, especially when it comes to defense. its also said you cant teach a man offensive prowess, which is why these players were so good.

 

it wont take me very long to prove my case, ill start with this. you can obviously see goalies had a harder time keeping the puck out of the net in the past, it largely due to the equipment. but comparing a guys point totals in the 70's - 80's point totals is a little disengenous. 

 

2019-20	NHL	1082	3.02	0.60	2.97	20.03	79.97	31.3	28.4	.910	2.82
2	2018-19	NHL	1271	3.01	0.58	2.92	19.78	80.22	31.3	28.5	.910	2.81
3	2017-18	NHL	1271	2.97	0.61	3.04	20.18	79.82	31.8	29.0	.912	2.78
4	2016-17	NHL	1230	2.77	0.57	2.99	19.10	80.90	30.1	27.5	.913	2.59
5	2015-16	NHL	1230	2.71	0.58	3.11	18.66	81.34	29.6	27.1	.915	2.51
6	2014-15	NHL	1230	2.73	0.57	3.06	18.66	81.34	29.8	27.3	.915	2.52
7	2013-14	NHL	1230	2.74	0.59	3.27	17.89	82.11	30.0	27.4	.914	2.56
8	2012-13	NHL	720	2.72	0.61	3.32	18.22	81.78	29.0	26.5	.912	2.54
9	2011-12	NHL	1230	2.73	0.57	3.31	17.31	82.69	29.7	27.1	.914	2.54
10	2010-11	NHL	1230	2.79	0.64	3.54	18.02	81.98	30.3	27.7	.913	2.61
11	2009-10	NHL	1230	2.84	0.68	3.71	18.23	81.77	30.2	27.5	.911	2.66
12	2008-09	NHL	1230	2.91	0.79	4.16	18.95	81.05	30.1	27.4	.908	2.73
13	2007-08	NHL	1230	2.78	0.76	4.28	17.75	82.25	29.0	26.3	.909	2.61
14	2006-07	NHL	1230	2.95	0.85	4.85	17.58	82.42	29.5	26.7	.905	2.77
15	2005-06	NHL	1230	3.08	1.03	5.85	17.68	82.32	29.9	27.0	.901	2.92
16	2003-04	NHL	1230	2.57	0.70	4.24	16.46	83.54	28.0	25.5	.911	2.46
17	2002-03	NHL	1230	2.65	0.73	4.42	16.43	83.57	28.3	25.7	.909	2.54
18	2001-02	NHL	1230	2.62	0.65	4.13	15.77	84.23	27.5	25.0	.908	2.51
19	2000-01	NHL	1230	2.76	0.76	4.59	16.64	83.36	27.6	25.0	.903	2.65
20	1999-00	NHL	1148	2.75	0.65	4.03	16.15	83.85	27.9	25.2	.904	2.64
Rk	Season	Lg	GP	G	PP	PPO	PP%	PK%	SA	SV	SV%	GAA
21	1998-99	NHL	1107	2.63	0.69	4.38	15.81	84.19	27.8	25.2	.908	2.56
22	1997-98	NHL	1066	2.64	0.70	4.64	15.08	84.92	27.3	24.7	.906	2.53
23	1996-97	NHL	1066	2.92	0.67	4.10	16.27	83.73	29.7	26.9	.905	2.80
24	1995-96	NHL	1066	3.14	0.90	5.04	17.93	82.07	30.2	27.1	.898	3.04
25	1994-95	NHL	624	2.99	0.77	4.36	17.73	82.27	29.3	26.4	.901	2.89
26	1993-94	NHL	1092	3.24	0.90	4.85	18.64	81.36	30.2	27.1	.895	3.14
27	1992-93	NHL	1008	3.63	1.03	5.28	19.57	80.43	30.9	27.4	.885	3.53
28	1991-92	NHL	880	3.48	0.97	5.02	19.24	80.76	30.4	27.0	.888	3.37
29	1990-91	NHL	840	3.46	0.89	4.57	19.44	80.56	29.7	26.4	.886	3.35
30	1989-90	NHL	840	3.68	0.95	4.58	20.77	79.23	30.2	26.6	.881	3.56
31	1988-89	NHL	840	3.74	1.06	5.04	20.99	79.01	30.3	26.6	.879	3.63
32	1987-88	NHL	840	3.71	1.11	5.46	20.29	79.71	30.4	26.8	.880	3.62
33	1986-87	NHL	840	3.67	0.90	4.30	20.98	79.02	29.9	26.3	.880	3.56
34	1985-86	NHL	840	3.97	1.02	4.62	22.08	77.92	31.0	27.1	.874	3.87
35	1984-85	NHL	840	3.89	0.89	4.01	22.20	77.80	30.5	26.7	.875	3.79
36	1983-84	NHL	840	3.94	0.92	4.20	21.91	78.09	30.5	26.7	.873	3.84
37	1982-83	NHL	840	3.86	0.89	3.87	22.92	77.08	30.5	26.7	.875	3.80
38	1981-82	NHL	840	4.01	0.91	4.00	22.85	77.15	31.1	27.1	.873	3.95
39	1980-81	NHL	840	3.84	0.96	4.25	22.53	77.47	30.4	26.7	.876	3.78
40	1979-80	NHL	840	3.51	0.77	3.50	21.86	78.14	29.3	25.9	.882	3.46
Rk	Season	Lg	GP	G	PP	PPO	PP%	PK%	SA	SV	SV%	GAA
41	1978-79	NHL	680	3.50	0.77	3.38	22.72	77.28	29.3	25.9	.883	3.45
42	1977-78	NHL	720	3.30	0.67	3.19	21.15	78.85	29.2	26.0	.889	3.26
43	1976-77	NHL	720	3.32	0.66	3.31	19.83	80.17	30.0	26.7	.891	3.28
44	1975-76	NHL	720	3.41	0.82	4.01	20.54	79.46	30.6	27.2	.890	3.37
45	1974-75	NHL	720	3.43	0.80	3.95	20.33	79.67	30.7	27.4	.890	3.38
46	1973-74	NHL	624	3.20	0.63	3.30	19.09	80.91	30.3	27.2	.896	3.16
47	1972-73	NHL	624	3.28	0.63	3.34	18.71	81.29	31.1	27.8	.896	3.24
48	1971-72	NHL	546	3.07	0.67	3.45	19.38	80.62	30.9	27.9	.903	3.02
49

.888 and .906 is about 2% difference in SP...

 

Yes the average fan is aware of what Roy did to the game (9 out of ten goals were scored along the ice at the time - drop down every time a person gets the puck and stop .900 shots).   It’s not hard to go back from today to Lidstrom’s time, and before that Coffey’s/Bourque’s.  Nobody is saying Lidstrom isn’t up to today’s standards.   And it’s ridiculous to say those guys weren’t too.   Even without the redline and clutching and grabbing etc...I’m sure one day another Orr, Gretzky, Mario level guy will appear again.    Players today have it pretty easy compared to how they had it during the dead puck era for sure.   

[Bad_BOI_pete]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

.888 and .906 is about 2% difference in SP...

 

Yes the average fan is aware of what Roy did to the game (9 out of ten goals were scored along the ice at the time - drop down every time a person gets the puck and stop .900 shots).   It’s not hard to go back from today to Lidstrom’s time, and before that Coffey’s/Bourque’s.  Nobody is saying Lidstrom isn’t up to today’s standards.   And it’s ridiculous to say those guys weren’t too.   Even without the redline and clutching and grabbing etc...I’m sure one day another Orr, Gretzky, Mario level guy will appear again.    Players today have it pretty easy compared to how they had it during the dead puck era for sure.   

haha you can look at the stats, and you can see how shooting percentage dropped from top players in the 80 at about 25-30% down to 15% -20%.

name any player that played in 95-96 who scored more points the very next year. for everyone you name, (i know them all) i will give you three that had drastic point reductions.

 

i have watched the highlights and the efforts of the defenders are no where near of the current era. players in the 80's had it way easier, gretzky said it. gretzky has even said many players of the current era are better than him.

 

if i have to show you how bad they defended it will be pretty easy, all the best highlights are from the current era

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Petey_BOI said:

haha you can look at the stats, and you can see how shooting percentage dropped from top players in the 80 at about 25-30% down to 15% -20%.

name any player that played in 95-96 who scored more points the very next year. for everyone you name, (i know them all) i will give you three that had drastic point reductions.

 

i have watched the highlights and the efforts of the defenders are no where near of the current era. players in the 80's had it way easier, gretzky said it. gretzky has even said many players of the current era are better than him.

 

if i have to show you how bad they defended it will be pretty easy, all the best highlights are from the current era

Agree to disagree.   Watching highlights is just that.  If you weren’t actually there to watch it then how can you objectively make those sort of assumptions? The flip side of stats is even equalizing save percentage’s with today’s numbers,  the point totals of the 80-mid 90’s would still far surpass any other era.   Maybe they just had better shots and were better players. 

 

  The dead puck era started in 95... I remember it well.   As do I the 87 Canada Cup which is still regarded as the best collection of hockey players ever - and an epic tournament.  But you don’t have take my word for it.  I’m sure someone 20 years ago will make the same comments and you can switch positions ha ha and defend Ovi, Crosby and McDavid.   The biggest difference now is guys don’t get away with much at all comparatively,  no redline (one less pass), super sized  goalies and better equipment, fourth lines have changed and speed is king (not a league for Hatcher’s and Ludwig’s and Murzyn’s).  
 

Plenty of Uber talented guys in the 90’s still got it done in the 2000’s ... Selanne, Sundin, Kariya, Zubov, Niedermayer, Lidstrom, and our very own Naslund, Jovo and Bertuzzi plus a lot more.   But I suppose those guys were chumps by today’s standards too.  Or how about Iginla, or Jagr, or Stevens, Broduer and on and on.    For years before 95 the clutching and grabbing was already in the game - and was complained about often by Mario, Hull, Gretzky and other of the leagues stars - add the trap to the game as well and that’s why the rules changed.   Can give you quotes from magazines from back then that read the same way it did in 2003.   Choked the life out of the offense for a decade.   Funny thing is the older gaurd, nearing the end of their careers, did just fine against the next crop of stars that played well into the 2010’s...how do you explain that?  
 

  Didn’t help that half the all-time best players aged out within a few years of each other either.   Yzerman on one knee and almost done was still better then most centers... Sakic, Forsberg, Blake ... all did just fine even with the trap.   Bure would score 70 goals a season easy in today’s game, and Gretzky would still put up gaudy numbers too.   It’s a little naive to think the average player would be a star in the 80’s and that an average player in the 80’s wouldn’t make it today.  32 teams vs 18-21...

 

Edit:  And on Gretzky... he’s the same kid that joined the league and idolized Howe.  Modest to a fault.   Never called himself the greatest despite it being so incredibly obvious, his entire book isn’t about him but the history of the game and other players, not personal accomplishments.   He’s been saying there have been better players his whole life, which includes those before him, because he’s a wise one too.   Who knows if he actually believes it though.   And finally you have to take WG and Mario’s shooting percentage out of the equation and look at the rest of best,  Bossy’s too.   They didn’t rely on shot volume, rather picking corners and masterful moves. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by IBatch

[Bad_BOI_pete]

16 hours ago, IBatch said:

Agree to disagree.   Watching highlights is just that.  If you weren’t actually there to watch it then how can you objectively make those sort of assumptions? The flip side of stats is even equalizing save percentage’s with today’s numbers,  the point totals of the 80-mid 90’s would still far surpass any other era.   Maybe they just had better shots and were better players. 

 

  The dead puck era started in 95... I remember it well.   As do I the 87 Canada Cup which is still regarded as the best collection of hockey players ever - and an epic tournament.  But you don’t have take my word for it.  I’m sure someone 20 years ago will make the same comments and you can switch positions ha ha and defend Ovi, Crosby and McDavid.   The biggest difference now is guys don’t get away with much at all comparatively,  no redline (one less pass), super sized  goalies and better equipment, fourth lines have changed and speed is king (not a league for Hatcher’s and Ludwig’s and Murzyn’s).  
 

Plenty of Uber talented guys in the 90’s still got it done in the 2000’s ... Selanne, Sundin, Kariya, Zubov, Niedermayer, Lidstrom, and our very own Naslund, Jovo and Bertuzzi plus a lot more.   But I suppose those guys were chumps by today’s standards too.  Or how about Iginla, or Jagr, or Stevens, Broduer and on and on.    For years before 95 the clutching and grabbing was already in the game - and was complained about often by Mario, Hull, Gretzky and other of the leagues stars - add the trap to the game as well and that’s why the rules changed.   Can give you quotes from magazines from back then that read the same way it did in 2003.   Choked the life out of the offense for a decade.   Funny thing is the older gaurd, nearing the end of their careers, did just fine against the next crop of stars that played well into the 2010’s...how do you explain that?  
 

  Didn’t help that half the all-time best players aged out within a few years of each other either.   Yzerman on one knee and almost done was still better then most centers... Sakic, Forsberg, Blake ... all did just fine even with the trap.   Bure would score 70 goals a season easy in today’s game, and Gretzky would still put up gaudy numbers too.   It’s a little naive to think the average player would be a star in the 80’s and that an average player in the 80’s wouldn’t make it today.  32 teams vs 18-21...

 

Edit:  And on Gretzky... he’s the same kid that joined the league and idolized Howe.  Modest to a fault.   Never called himself the greatest despite it being so incredibly obvious, his entire book isn’t about him but the history of the game and other players, not personal accomplishments.   He’s been saying there have been better players his whole life, which includes those before him, because he’s a wise one too.   Who knows if he actually believes it though.   And finally you have to take WG and Mario’s shooting percentage out of the equation and look at the rest of best,  Bossy’s too.   They didn’t rely on shot volume, rather picking corners and masterful moves. 

but the didnt have to pick corners, they just had to throw it on net. and add in the fact there was no such thing as defense

[Gurn]

smaller goalies, different styles like "stand up goalie", heavy water soaked goalie gear etc.

All make a difference.

[Bad_BOI_pete]

2 minutes ago, gurn said:

smaller goalies, different styles like "stand up goalie", heavy water soaked goalie gear etc.

All make a difference.

totall agree, this guy just thinks todays players wouldnt be able to put up numbers if they played in the 80's. like bro, you for real?

[Bad_BOI_pete]

here's a good article why the 80's had so much scoring

 

https://grantland.com/the-triangle/why-were-the-80s-so-insane-in-the-nhl/

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Petey_BOI said:

totall agree, this guy just thinks todays players wouldnt be able to put up numbers if they played in the 80's. like bro, you for real?

If you weren’t there then don’t comment.   The stars of the 80’s did just fine in the 90’s, and the stars of the 90’s did just fine in the 2000’s.   Are you for real?  It’s a lot faster now after the obstruction and redline was taken out of the game - and for sure it would have been faster back then too without it.   Yes the goalies stood up.   And for sure it wasn’t as easy on them either.  Doesn’t mean they weren’t terrific athletes- of course they were.   Mankind hasn’t evolved that much good grief.  Go watch some Mario highlights and see how half the other team was draping over him at the time ... 

Edited November 30, 2020 by IBatch

[Bad_BOI_pete]

3 minutes ago, IBatch said:

If you weren’t there then don’t comment.   The stars of the 80’s did just fine in the 90’s, and the stars of the 90’s did just fine in the 2000’s.   Are you for real?  It’s a lot faster now after the obstruction and redline was taken out of the game - and for sure it would have been faster back then too without it.   Yes the goalies stood up.   And for sure it wasn’t as easy on them either.  Doesn’t mean they weren’t terrific athletes- of course they were.   Mankind hasn’t evolved that much good grief. 

you have rose colored glasses my friend, im done posting here, ive made enough of a case

Edited November 30, 2020 by Petey_BOI

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Petey_BOI said:

you have rose colored glasses my friend, im done posting here, ive made enough of a case

Nah.  That’s ok.  I’m sorry you weren’t born and privy to the “golden era” of hockey, and that the “you tube” generation has taken some shine off.   And this might rub you some, but the 94 final is still considered the greatest finals since expansion by hockey experts, plus aside from Crosby, Thornton, Ovi and perhaps a few select others will end up on any lists that truly matter.    Hockey was different back then.   EP falls over with the slightest bump.   But somehow he’s going to be Jesus back then right?  Sundin is considered a Demi-god on here by some yet did all his work in the 90’s and early 2000’s.    Gretzky’s worst season was his last.   What a chump only putting up 100 points or so near the end of his career after all those games in the dead puck era.  But carry on.   Your wrong.   There are a few guys on our team that would have done well back then.   Horvat, Miller, Edler, Myers, maybe BB.  Who really knows.   I suppose Mike Tyson would have ate up Ali too, and whomever is at or near the top is the best athlete the world has ever seen.   Even if save percentage’s were 10% better it doesn’t matter (and they were at best 3.5% at their peak)....it’s not hard to trace.  Jagr getting 68 points as a 45 year old matters.   As does Thornton playing the past 20 years and how he did against the best of the best when they are almost done.  
 

Edit:  Do your self a favour and go watch some Lindros highlights while your at it.   If you want to see players learn how to “fly” you won’t be disappointed. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by IBatch

[Bad_BOI_pete]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

Nah.  That’s ok.  I’m sorry you weren’t born and privy to the “golden era” of hockey, and that the “you tube” generation has taken some shine off.   And this might rub you some, but the 94 final is still considered the greatest finals since expansion by hockey experts, plus aside from Crosby, Thornton, Ovi and perhaps a few select others will end up on any lists that truly matter.    Hockey was different back then.   EP falls over with the slightest bump.   But somehow he’s going to be Jesus back then right?  Sundin is considered a Demi-god on here by some yet did all his work in the 90’s and early 2000’s.    Gretzky’s worst season was his last.   What a chump only putting up 100 points or so near the end of his career after all those games in the dead puck era.  But carry on.   Your wrong.   There are a few guys on our team that would have done well back then.   Horvat, Miller, Edler, Myers, maybe BB.  Who really knows.   I suppose Mike Tyson would have ate up Ali too, and whomever is at or near the top is the best athlete the world has ever seen.   Even if save percentage’s were 10% better it doesn’t matter (and they were at best 3.5% at their peak)....it’s not hard to trace.  Jagr getting 68 points as a 45 year old matters.   As does Thornton playing the past 20 years and how he did against the best of the best when they are almost done.  

you are only 8.5 years older than me.  that puts you at 9 years old in 82. im not taking a 9 years old opinion into the matter

[IBatch]

1 minute ago, Petey_BOI said:

you are only 8.5 years older than me.  that puts you at 9 years old in 82. im not taking a 9 years old opinion into the matter

Says who? 

[Bad_BOI_pete]

says your page my friend

[IBatch]

19 minutes ago, Petey_BOI said:

says your page my friend

Which exactly why I won’t comment too much about the 70’s, other then the fact I loved Bobby Clark’s hair.   If you we’re not around for the decade - why put it down?   And if you don’t like what I have to say then go and see what the hockey historians have to say.   The information is available. 
 

It’s also why I’ve started with Orr, of course I don’t remember him I was a kid, had to learn about him from my elders... and why my favourite D ever is Coffey - because he was incredible. His 15th season he was 2nd in Hart voting and won the Norris.   Playing with Lidstrom.   At the same age he’d already scored 100 points.  But you seem to have a button on it - sorry to here.   Too bad, because your missing out.  

Edited November 30, 2020 by IBatch

[Bad_BOI_pete]

i dont want to post here anymore, because of that. yet somehow you think your posts are relevant and mine are not. you do you bud