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The Gay Debate: The Bible and Homosexuality


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#211 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 08:31 PM

on his quoting Matt. 7 and saying that being anti-homosexual marriage produces bad fruit: he's taking "good" and "bad" in human (his own) terms, and placing the human (his) standard of what is good and bad over Christ's. Furthermore, his perception of fruit is that it should be based purely upon a person's well-being emotionally, rather than the blessings that come from being submissive to God.

It was made clear in Romans 1:

men abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.” (Romans 1:27)

God already made it clear that it's wrong to abandon these natural relations with the opposite gender and lust for the same.

There is to be a penalty associated with this, since it's considered sin (not right in God's eyes)

and, in Gen. 22 (not quoted by him):

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh

a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife! It isn't good for man to be alone, but this is not to be done by sinning and violating what God said was wrong already.

That's like saying, "it's not good for man to be alone" so he'll go cheat with someone else's wife because he loves them. It's not right.

He also grossly, GROSSLY misinterprets the meaning of "the new covenant"-- the Law (the Abrahamic Law) was the way for people to be saved by God through living up to His standards. The new covenant works by the Christian believing in (having faith in) His promise to be saved through believing that He, being God's own son, died for us as a sinless man to save us from our sin and rose again on the third day, then confessing of our sin and accepting Him as your personal savior.

Romans 8:1-4 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

That is not to say that the person is exempted from living according to His rules, though.

Romans 6: 1-4 "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." We are supposed to live differently, apart from the sinful life, when we have been saved by Christ's grace.

Paul, in Romans 3:24-25, tells what the New Covenant is well: "[we] are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood."

1 Cor. 7:2-- "But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband".

I pray for this speaker, he knows so much about Christianity and can quote snippets of it so well, yet so blatantly twists it and lives against it for his own desires... God never said that you will be alone because you are homosexual. He is willing to love you and accept you back, if you are willing to turn back and follow His ways. If Matthew loves God, he would know that to love God he would live according to His commands.



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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#212 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 09:20 PM

Intelligence Quotient

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I hope that no one is angered by the contents of this web page.
In this compilation of texts we'll address the coorelation between the beliefs in the existance of deity constructs and the intelligence quotient of the believer. We'll also provide suitable references for further investigation into the subject.
I'll add that any negative connotations or remarks which I've ecountered during the compilation of relevant text has been discarded out-of-hand and I've only retained text which maintains some level of professional decorum. Since the truth might easilly anger the theists who might run across this web page, I would not deliberately increase their anger by including unkind remarks and references.

Paraphrased and summarized from The Effect of Intelligence on Religious Faith, Burnham P. Beckwith, Free Inquiry, Spring 1986:
1. Thomas Howells, 1927
Study of 461 students showed religiously conversative students "are, in general, relatively inferior in intellectual ability."

2. Hilding Carlsojn, 1933
Study of 215 students showed that "there is a tendency for the more intelligent undergraduate to be sympathetic toward ... atheism."

3. Abraham Franzblau, 1934
Confirming Howells and Carlson, tested 354 Jewish children, 10-16. Negative correlation between religiosity and Terman intelligence test.

4. Thomas Symington, 1935
Tested 400 young people in colleges and church groups. He reported, "there is a constant positive relation in all the groups between liberal religious thinking and mental ability...There is also a constant positive relation between liberal scores and intelligence..."

5. Vernon Jones, 1938
Tested 381 stydents, concluding "a slight tendency for intelligence and liberal attitudes to go together."

6. A. R. Gilliland, 1940
At variance with all other studies, found "little or no relationship between intelligence and attitude toward god."

7. Donald Gragg, 1942
Reported an inverse correlation between 100 ACE freshman test scores and Thurstone "reality of god" scores.

8. Brown and Love, 1951
At U. of Denver, tested 613 male and female students. Mean test scores of non-believers = 119, believers = 100. Percentile NBs = 80, BBs = 50. Their findings "strongly corroborate those of Howells."

9. Michael Argyle, 1958
Concluded that "although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs."

10. Jeffrey Hadden, 1963
Found no correlation between intelligence and grades. This was an anomalous finding, since GPA corresponds closely with intelligence. Other factors may have influenced the results at the U. of Wisconsin.

11. Young, Dustin and Holtzman, 1966
Average religiosity decreased as GPA rose.

12. James Trent, 1967
Polled 1400 college seniors. Found little difference, but high-ability students in his sample group were over-represented.

13. C. Plant and E. Minium, 1967
The more intelligent students were less religious, both before entering college and after 2 years of college.

14. Robert Wuthnow, 1978
Of 532 students, 37% of christians, 58% of apostates, and 53 percent of non-religious scored above average on SATs.

15. Hastings and Hoge, 1967, 1974
Polled 200 college students and found no significant correlations.

16. Norman Poythress, 1975
Mean SATs for strongly antireligious (1148), moderately anti-religious (1119), slightly antireligious (1108), and religious (1022).

17. Wiebe and Fleck, 1980
Studied 158 male and female Canadian university students. The reported "nonreligious S's tended to be strongly intelligent" and "more intelligent than religious S's.

Student Body Comparisons-
1. Rose Goldsen, Student belief in a divine god, percentages 1952.
Harvard 30; UCLA 32; Dartmouth 35; Yale 36; Cornell 42; Wayne 43; Weslyan 43; Michigan 45; Fisk 60; Texas 62; N. Carolina 68.

2. National Review Study, 1970 Students Belief in Spirit or Divine
God. Percentages: Reed 15; Brandeis 25; Sarah Lawrence 28; Williams 36; Stanford 41; Boston U. 41; Yale 42; Howard 47; Indiana 57; Davidson 59; S. Carolina 65; Marquette 77.

3. Caplovitz and Sherrow, 1977
Apostasy rates rose continuously from 5% in "low" ranked schools to 17% in "high" ranked schools.

Niemi, Ross, and Alexander, 1978
In elite schools, organized religion was judged important by only 26%, compared with 44% of all students.

Studies of Very-High-IQ groups.
1. Terman, 1959
Studied group with IQ > 140. Of men, 10% held strong religious belief, of women 18%. 62% of men and 57% if women claimed "little religious inclination" while 28% men and 23% of women claimed it was "not at all important."

2. Warren and Heist, 1960
Found no differences among National Merit Scholars. Results may have been affected by the fact that NM scholars are not selected on the basis of intelligence or grades alone, but also on "leadership" and such like.

3. Southern and Plant, 1968
42 male and 30 female members of Mensa. Mensa members were much less religious in belief than the typical American college alumnus or adult.

1. William S. Ament, 1927
C. C. Little, president U. of Michigan, checked persons listed in Who's Who in America: "Unitarians, Episcopalians, Congregationalists, Universalists, and Presbyterians are ... far more numerous in Who's Who than would be expercted on the basis of the population which they form. Baptists, Methodists, and Catholics are distinctly less numberous."

Ament confirmed Little's conclusion. He noted that Unitarians, the least religious, were more than 40 times as numerous in Who's Who as in the U.S. population.
2. Lehman and Witty, 1931
Identified 1189 scientists found in both _Who's Who_ (1927) and American Men of Science (1927). Only 25% in AM of S and 50% of those listed in Who's Who reported their religious denomination despite the specific requests to do so, "religious denomination (if any)." Well over 90% of the general population claims religious affiliation. The figure of 25% suggest far less religiosity among scientists.

Unitarians were 81.4 times as numerous among eminent scientists as non-Unitarians.
3. Kelley and Fisk, 1951
Found a negative (-.39) correlation between the strength of religious values and research competence. [How these were measured I have no idea.]

4. Ann Roe, 1953
Interviewed 64 "eminent scientists, nearly all members of the prestigious National Academy of Sciences or the American Philosophical Society. She reported that, while nearly all of them had religious parents and had attended Sunday school, 'now only three of these men are seriously active in church. A few others attend upon occasion, or even give some financial support to a church which they do not attend... All the otheres have long since dismissed religion as any guide to them, and the church plays no part in their lives...A few are militantly atheistic, but most are just not interested.'"

5. Francis Bello, 1954
Questionnaired or interviewed 107 young (<= 40) nonindustrial scientists judged by senior colleagues to be outstanding. 87 responded. 45% claimed to be "agnostic or atheistic" and an additional 22% claimed no religious affiliation. For 20 most eminent, "the proportion who are now a-religious is considerably higher than in the entire survey group."

6. Jack Chambers, 1964
Questionnaired 740 US psychologists and chemists. He reported, "the highly creative men [jft- assume no women included] ... significantly more often show either no preference for a particular religion or little or no interest in religion." Found that the most eminent psychologists showed 40% no preference, 16% for the most eminent chemists.

7. Vaughan, Smith, and Sjoberg, 1965
Polled 850 US physicists, zoologists, chemical engineers, and geologists listed in American Men of Science_(1955) on church membership, and attendance patterns, and belief in afterlife. 642 replies.

38.5% did not believe in afterlife, 31.8% did. Belief in immortality was less common among major university staff than among those employed by business, government, or minor universities. The contemporaneous Gallup poll showed 2/3 of US population believed in afterlife, so scientists were far less religious than typical adult.
From Beckwith's concluding remarks:

Conclusions
In this essay I have reviewed: (1)sixteen studies of the correlation between individual measures of student intelligence and religiosity, all but three of which reported an inverse correlation. (2) five studies reporting that student bodies with high average IQ and/or SAT scores are much less religious than inferior student bodies; (3) three studies reporting that geniuses (IQ 150+) are much less religious than the general public (Average IQ, 100), and one dubious study, (4) seven studies reporting that highly successful persons are much less religious in belief than are others; and (5) eight old and four new Gallup polls revealing that college alumni (average IQ about 115) are much less religious in belief than are grade-school pollees.

I have also noted that many studies have shown that students become less religious as they proceed through college, probably in part because average IQ rises.
All but four of the forty-three polls I have reviewed support the conclusion that native intelligence varies inversely with degree of religious faith; i.e., that, other factors being equal, the more intelligent a person is, the less religious he is. It is easy to find fault with the studies I have reviewed, for all were imperfect. But the fact that all but four of them supported the general conclusion provides overwhelming evidence that, among American students and adults, the amount of religious faith tends to vary inversely and appreciably with intelligence.

There are no entirely satisfactory measures of intelligence, nor even satisfactory definitions of what is to be measured. Intelligence seems be something, though, and every tack we take in trying to catch the elusive winds of thought carries us further toward workable definitions. Is intelligence a good memory, the ability to sculpt, make a diving catch in center field, play blindfold chess, construct sentences of "learned length and thundering sound", or time a punchline?
SAT tests, IQ tests, success in life, measures of fame and esteem in peer groups all fail to give that satisfying, final readout of how smart or stupid any given person is. The evidence we have indicates that the more we know about the real world, the less likely we are to believe in an imaginary one.
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#213 DarthNinja

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 09:30 PM

I know this is a bit off topic but i think this is something that everyone should know


Video: Taliban shoot woman 9 times in public execution as men cheer


AFGHANISTAN

July 08, 2012|By the CNN Wire Staff
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A shot rings out, but the burqa-clad woman sitting on the rocky ground does not respond.
The man pointing a rifle at her from a few feet away lets loose another round, but still there is no reaction.
He fires a third shot, and finally the woman slumps backwards.
But the man fires another shot.
And another. And another.
Nine shots in all.
Around him, dozens of men on a hillside cheer: "God is great!"
Officials in Afghanistan, where the amateur video was filmed, believe the woman was executed because two Taliban commanders had a dispute over her, according to the governor of the province where the killing took place.
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Both apparently had some kind of relationship with the woman, said Parwan province governor Abdul Basir Salangi.
"In order to save face," they accused her of adultery, Salangi said.
Then they "faked a court to decide about the fate of this woman and in one hour, they executed the woman," he added.
Both Taliban commanders were subsequently killed by a third Taliban commander, Salangi said.
"We went there to investigate and we are still looking for people who were involved in this brutal act," he said.
It is not clear from the video when it was filmed.
The killing took place in the village of Qimchok, not far north of the capital Kabul.
Lawmaker Fawzia Koofi called it a huge backward step for women's issues in Afghanistan.
"I think we will have to do something serious about this, we will have to do something as women, but also as human beings," she said. "She didn't even say one word to defend herself."
Koofi wept on Saturday as she watched the video of the execution.
The United States condemned the killing "in the strongest possible terms," calling it a "cold-blooded murder."
"The protection of women's rights is critical around the world, but especially in Afghanistan, where such rights were ignored, attacked and eroded under Taliban rule," the American embassy said in a statement on Sunday.
The NATO-led International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan also condemned the execution.
"Let's be clear, this wasn't justice, this was murder, and an atrocity of unspeakable cruelty," ISAF commander Gen. John Allen said in a statement Sunday. "The Taliban's continued brutality toward innocent civilians, particularly women, must be condemned in the strongest terms. There has been too much progress made by too many brave Afghans, especially on the part of women, for this kind of criminal behavior to be tolerated."

and the fire of predjudice and hatred is fuelled by religion !


They should totally invade Afghanistan and remove the Taliban from power...
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"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens & the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We (Allah) parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (Qur'an 21:30)

11477626583_2368927097.jpg     49997_b70e6ae14ce1652fa11bd1dda624afd1.g   7649118508_ce3e8a74a1_o.jpg

"Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” (David Rockefeller)


#214 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 10:53 PM

Blah blah blah gay Christians are SOL.


I just love this thread. The topic is the example of how the bible can be twisted to mean whatever one wants it to mean. Here's a post that debunks the OP and coincidentally explains in detail why Christianity is such a crappy religion. I'm loving it. It's like these guys are doing the job for us. Sometimes I'm glad this forum is full of young people, they can read these threads. ::D

Way to go boys. Next week we should do slavery or misogyny.
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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


Posted Image Hail to the King (PBUH)! Posted Image


#215 Navyblue

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 11:38 PM

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I'm getting paid to read these forums. LOVING IT.

Wait a second... frack

Edited by Navyblue, 09 July 2012 - 11:41 PM.

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#216 Heretic

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 08:07 AM

I just love this thread. The topic is the example of how the bible can be twisted to mean whatever one wants it to mean. Here's a post that debunks the OP and coincidentally explains in detail why Christianity is such a crappy religion. I'm loving it. It's like these guys are doing the job for us. Sometimes I'm glad this forum is full of young people, they can read these threads. ::D

Way to go boys. Next week we should do slavery or misogyny.


Doing the "job for us"?

Who is "us"?

I guess "us" never "twists" any part of the Bible for "their" needs do "they"?

I feel so sorry for you.
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#217 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 08:51 AM

Doing the "job for us"?

Who is "us"?

I guess "us" never "twists" any part of the Bible for "their" needs do "they"?

I feel so sorry for you.


I pity you ,
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."
-- Thomas Paine
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#218 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:04 AM

Doing the "job for us"?

Who is "us"?

I guess "us" never "twists" any part of the Bible for "their" needs do "they"?

I feel so sorry for you.


"I feel sorry for you"... you're not quoting Jebus there, are you? No, of course you're not, he would never say anything like that.

I feel sorry for you, because your hypocrisy is so transparent. A typical, self-serving, run o' the mill Christian whose beliefs only change when reality slaps him in the face. I wonder if people realize that you have a gay daughter - that wouldn't have anything to do with you suddenly being so supporting of gays, mmm? Too bad when it comes to the rest of it, you're still the same breed of conservatives that ruined the US and threatens Canada. You know the type, proud of your bibles, supportive of the army, opposed to social services. Tell me that story of the liberal grasshopper again! And when AirCare goes away, it's a good thing because it cost YOU money, but smokers pollute your environment, huh?

You feel sorry for me? That's a barrel of laughs.
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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


Posted Image Hail to the King (PBUH)! Posted Image


#219 Heretic

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:19 AM

"I feel sorry for you"... you're not quoting Jebus there, are you? No, of course you're not, he would never say anything like that.

I feel sorry for you, because your hypocrisy is so transparent. A typical, self-serving, run o' the mill Christian whose beliefs only change when reality slaps him in the face. I wonder if people realize that you have a gay daughter - that wouldn't have anything to do with you suddenly being so supporting of gays, mmm? Too bad when it comes to the rest of it, you're still the same breed of conservatives that ruined the US and threatens Canada. You know the type, proud of your bibles, supportive of the army, opposed to social services. Tell me that story of the liberal grasshopper again! And when AirCare goes away, it's a good thing because it cost YOU money, but smokers pollute your environment, huh?

You feel sorry for me? That's a barrel of laughs.


You're a waste of skin.

You're one to talk about hypocrisy - on and on and on about the hate in the Bible yet you spew out the same on a daily basis.

Suddenly supportive? Sorry - I was supporting gays long before she told me - but like your picking apart of certain scriptures or only the negative stories about Christianity - you only pick and choose what you see about other people.

I never claimed to be perfect - Of course you're like Jesus right? Perfect in every way right?
Nothing is ever your fault - I'm sad and laughing at your accusations - looking forward when you grow up and realize that it's nobody's fault but your own. I don't know how old you ar, but I've met some pretty young people with more maturity in their little fingers then you have in your whole body.

"I kept the Christians hot and bothered for ya"

This isn't a game.

This is life.
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#220 SN -Admin

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:26 AM

Tone it down guys. First and only warning - you should be used to this now.
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#221 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:30 AM

Tone it down doesn't mean 'attack the guy more'. Chill out for a bit, come back later.

Edited by SN -Admin, 10 July 2012 - 09:40 AM.

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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


Posted Image Hail to the King (PBUH)! Posted Image


#222 Niloc009

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:35 AM

This isn't a game.

This is life.


And that's exactly why, as an atheist, I don't spend my time bashing religious people just for being religious. They have every right to believe what they do. What's the point getting into arguments over it, when neither person will change based on it? I believe that this is my only life, so I'd better make it count. That's why I...
Don't waste my time with needless hate over a person's belief system, background, or anything else that makes them, them.
Don't waste my time with making other people unhappy or needlessly denying their rights.
Spend my time trying to make people happy.
Spend time trying to help other people.


I know that some Atheists do hate. Its the whole reason those people are what they are. But always remember that there's the silent majority, just trying to live their life, and let you live yours.
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STHS Hockey League - Brooklyn Beavers GM


#223 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 10:33 AM

"I feel sorry for you"... you're not quoting Jebus there, are you? No, of course you're not, he would never say anything like that.

I feel sorry for you, because your hypocrisy is so transparent. A typical, self-serving, run o' the mill Christian whose beliefs only change when reality slaps him in the face. I wonder if people realize that you have a gay daughter - that wouldn't have anything to do with you suddenly being so supporting of gays, mmm? Too bad when it comes to the rest of it, you're still the same breed of conservatives that ruined the US and threatens Canada. You know the type, proud of your bibles, supportive of the army, opposed to social services. Tell me that story of the liberal grasshopper again! And when AirCare goes away, it's a good thing because it cost YOU money, but smokers pollute your environment, huh?

You feel sorry for me? That's a barrel of laughs.


Scorp, Scorp, Scorp........

Why is it that you refuse to allow anyone the right to evolve in their thinking and beliefs? You are a great believer in evolution, are you not? Or is that belief only tied to the progression of apes to modern man a'la Darwin?

ev·o·lu·tion


noun

1. any process of formation or growth; development
2. a product of such development;
3. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, andgenetic drift.
4. a process of gradual, peaceful, progressive change or development, as in social or economic structure or institutions.
5.a motion incomplete in itself, but combining with coordinated motionstoproduce a single action, as in a machine

You have been very quick to judge others in any religion vs well, pretty much everything else debate yet despite your lobbying and perceived wish to change other's thinking, you only seem to jump all over them and accuse them of hypocrisy when they do.....change their thinking or belief. You can't have it both ways, my friend, as you only end up confirming what many believe about your posts in religion based topics..........that you participate only to hack and denigrate anyone who believes as a Christian regardless of how many concessions or admissions they may make regarding changes in their beliefs.

The pendulum swings both ways and it is possible to be a Christian and not believe 100% in the literal written word of the Bible. To be a rational, educated Christian who understands that the Bible was written for uneducated people of the times and in many ways, was a tool to control the masses. The Bible also lays out many basic truths and lessons for living a good, productive and healthy life wherein we treat others with respect, kindness and common decency.

You and other non-believers have stated many times that you don't need no damned ancient book and religion to teach you to be a better person. But when I look at the posts in this thread (and in years past, the God thread) it is only the non-Christians I see throwing stones, attacking a man's character and bringing his family into a debate on a bloody hockey board. It's beneath you, Scorp. I've always believed that you're much smarter than this. The Christian(s) in this debate have taken the high road, not resorted to name calling and have avoided stooping to the level of those who cannot seem to understand that the religious beliefs of those who believe in God that post here don't affect your life in any way, shape or form. Perhaps some lessons could be taken from this.


Unfortunately, the hypocrisy I'm seeing in this thread is not coming from Christians, it's coming from the 'anything but religion' crowd.

I congratulate Heretic on his love for his daughter regardless of sexual orientation, for not allowing others who want to throw bricks or allowing religion to dictate the entirety, the complete reality of his life........after all, isn't this what anyone, regardless of religion or non-religion should aspire to? Non-judgmental love for a child, for others, acceptance, common respect, treating others as you would like to be treated yourself?


Some in this thread may not think they need some damned ancient book to show them how to behave, that a belief in Christianity is all or nothing but that is simply not the case. It's more than obvious by the posts in this thread alone, that the lessons of common respect and acceptance of differences in others don't seem to have been found much in the life of some non-believers. Smart Christians, intelligent Christians, knowledgeable Christians are not sheep despite what a good number of non-believers (some of them in this thread) believe.

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 10 July 2012 - 10:41 AM.

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#224 Snake Doctor

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 11:17 AM

Tone it down guys. First and only warning - you should be used to this now.


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#225 Seifer86

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 11:40 AM

I congratulate Heretic on his love for his daughter regardless of sexual orientation, for not allowing others who want to throw bricks or allowing religion to dictate the entirety, the complete reality of his life........after all, isn't this what anyone, regardless of religion or non-religion should aspire to? Non-judgmental love for a child, for others, acceptance, common respect, treating others as you would like to be treated yourself?


Some in this thread may not think they need some damned ancient book to show them how to behave, that a belief in Christianity is all or nothing but that is simply not the case. It's more than obvious by the posts in this thread alone, that the lessons of common respect and acceptance of differences in others don't seem to have been found much in the life of some non-believers. Smart Christians, intelligent Christians, knowledgeable Christians are not sheep despite what a good number of non-believers (some of them in this thread) believe.

I liked everything you said in this post save for that one line. People shouldn't be congratulated for loving their children. Way to go for not casting down your own child! High five!

People don't tell their parent that they're gay as a form of rebellion or disrespect. Many are terrified to come out to their parents, and the fact that some parents respond with disappointment, fear, and hate is disgusting. Parents should be the FIRST people a child can talk to about something of that nature.

If someone came on these boards and said "my daughter is a redhead, but I love her despite the fact that she's a ginger", would you slap them on the back and say congratulations on not being an ignorant ass?

Edited by Seifer86, 10 July 2012 - 11:41 AM.

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#226 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 11:44 AM

I liked everything you said in this post save for that one line. People shouldn't be congratulated for loving their children. Way to go for not casting down your own child! High five!

People don't tell their parent that they're gay as a form of rebellion or disrespect. Many are terrified to come out to their parents, and the fact that some parents respond with disappointment, fear, and hate is disgusting. Parents should be the FIRST people a child can talk to about something of that nature.

If someone came on these boards and said "my daughter is a redhead, but I love her despite the fact that she's a ginger", would you slap them on the back and say congratulations on not being an ignorant ass.


In the context of the discussion going on here (and in other religious threads that have come and gone on this board), that comment is not as redundant and facetious as it may seem. I am well aware of the bigger picture here. Perhaps if you'd been reading this back and forth between Heretic and ScorpioEgo as long as I have (years worth), you'd see that the comment isn't as completely worthy of your comment as it may appear at first glance. :)

What's really sad......I once had a friend, completely non-religious, husband a lapsed Catholic, who raised their two sons with no religious instruction whatsoever. Yet, the parents both made no bones about the fact that if one of their sons came out and told them he was gay, he'd be written out of their lives forthwith. I was shocked, flabbergasted and dumbfounded that two supposedly intelligent human beings who professed to love their children could be so *&^^$ing narrow-minded and would be willing to sacrifice their love for their child over such a minimal and just downright stupid reason. That kind of ignorance is just beyond my capability to understand. Needless to say, we are friends no longer.

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 10 July 2012 - 12:08 PM.

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#227 Seifer86

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:03 PM

In the context of the discussion going on here (and in other religious threads that have come and gone on this board), that comment is not as redundant and facetious as it may seem. I am well aware of the bigger picture here. Perhaps if you'd been reading this back and forth between Heretic and ScorpioEgo as long as I have (years worth), you'd see that the comment isn't as completely worthy of your comment as it may appear at first glance. :)

My comment wasn't directed specifically at you but rather at anyone who uses that statement. I simply meant that no one should be congratulated for loving their child, especially if it is "in spite of" an uncontrollable fact. I understand the context and have been reading for many years myself. I'm well aware of Heretic's and ScorpioEgo's stance on this topic. Their "discussions" have been entertaining, if not a little over-the-top at times.
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#228 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:17 PM

Scorp, Scorp, Scorp........

Why is it that you refuse to allow anyone the right to evolve in their thinking and beliefs? You are a great believer in evolution, are you not? Or is that belief only tied to the progression of apes to modern man a'la Darwin?

ev·o·lu·tion


noun

1. any process of formation or growth; development
2. a product of such development;
3. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, andgenetic drift.
4. a process of gradual, peaceful, progressive change or development, as in social or economic structure or institutions.
5.a motion incomplete in itself, but combining with coordinated motionstoproduce a single action, as in a machine

You have been very quick to judge others in any religion vs well, pretty much everything else debate yet despite your lobbying and perceived wish to change other's thinking, you only seem to jump all over them and accuse them of hypocrisy when they do.....change their thinking or belief. You can't have it both ways, my friend, as you only end up confirming what many believe about your posts in religion based topics..........that you participate only to hack and denigrate anyone who believes as a Christian regardless of how many concessions or admissions they may make regarding changes in their beliefs.

The pendulum swings both ways and it is possible to be a Christian and not believe 100% in the literal written word of the Bible. To be a rational, educated Christian who understands that the Bible was written for uneducated people of the times and in many ways, was a tool to control the masses. The Bible also lays out many basic truths and lessons for living a good, productive and healthy life wherein we treat others with respect, kindness and common decency.

You and other non-believers have stated many times that you don't need no damned ancient book and religion to teach you to be a better person. But when I look at the posts in this thread (and in years past, the God thread) it is only the non-Christians I see throwing stones, attacking a man's character and bringing his family into a debate on a bloody hockey board. It's beneath you, Scorp. I've always believed that you're much smarter than this. The Christian(s) in this debate have taken the high road, not resorted to name calling and have avoided stooping to the level of those who cannot seem to understand that the religious beliefs of those who believe in God that post here don't affect your life in any way, shape or form. Perhaps some lessons could be taken from this.


Unfortunately, the hypocrisy I'm seeing in this thread is not coming from Christians, it's coming from the 'anything but religion' crowd.

I congratulate Heretic on his love for his daughter regardless of sexual orientation, for not allowing others who want to throw bricks or allowing religion to dictate the entirety, the complete reality of his life........after all, isn't this what anyone, regardless of religion or non-religion should aspire to? Non-judgmental love for a child, for others, acceptance, common respect, treating others as you would like to be treated yourself?


Some in this thread may not think they need some damned ancient book to show them how to behave, that a belief in Christianity is all or nothing but that is simply not the case. It's more than obvious by the posts in this thread alone, that the lessons of common respect and acceptance of differences in others don't seem to have been found much in the life of some non-believers. Smart Christians, intelligent Christians, knowledgeable Christians are not sheep despite what a good number of non-believers (some of them in this thread) believe.


No, I'm not a "great believer in evolution", I acknowledge its effect. I'm not a believer in gravity, either.

Do you credit Bev Oda with growing as a person after she paid back tax payer's money for her extravagances? Attack a person's character? I didn't make up a single word in my post. "Wah wah, leave Heretic alone!" He's a grown man and this forum has an ignore function. I suggest you both use it if my posts touch a spot.

Sure, we throw stones, but we don't have a holy book telling us to turn another cheek instead. You're not making a good case for why I'm a hypocrite and he's not, you're just making a case for why I'm a dick and he's a hypocrite. Well, I agree.

Christianity is a pick your own adventure book, eh? Well I wonder what a billion and a half of Christians have to say about that.
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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


Posted Image Hail to the King (PBUH)! Posted Image


#229 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:19 PM

No, I'm not a "great believer in evolution", I acknowledge its effect. I'm not a believer in gravity, either.

Do you credit Bev Oda with growing as a person after she paid back tax payer's money for her extravagances? Attack a person's character? I didn't make up a single word in my post. "Wah wah, leave Heretic alone!" He's a grown man and this forum has an ignore function. I suggest you both use it if my posts touch a spot.

Sure, we throw stones, but we don't have a holy book telling us to turn another cheek instead. You're not making a good case for why I'm a hypocrite and he's not, you're just making a case for why I'm a dick and he's a hypocrite. Well, I agree.

Christianity is a pick your own adventure book, eh? Well I wonder what a billion and a half of Christians have to say about that.


I am disappointed, Scorp. I expected much better, truly I did.

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 10 July 2012 - 12:21 PM.

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#230 Stefan

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:20 PM

Doing the "job for us"?

Who is "us"?

I guess "us" never "twists" any part of the Bible for "their" needs do "they"?

I feel so sorry for you.

Don't feel sorry for atheists. We're free.
I haven't watched the video. Can you explain how it manipulates the bibles evident hate for homosexuals, and turns it into something else?
I'm not easily persuaded (hence why I'm not in any cults), so it's going to take some serious magic to get me convinced.
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#231 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:25 PM

I am disappointed, Scorp. I expected much better, truly I did.


Well I hope you can find it in you to forgive me. I know Heretic will. Or not, I don't know if that's one of the chapters he believes.
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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#232 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:27 PM

No, I'm not a "great believer in evolution", I acknowledge its effect. I'm not a believer in gravity, either.

Do you credit Bev Oda with growing as a person after she paid back tax payer's money for her extravagances? Attack a person's character? I didn't make up a single word in my post. "Wah wah, leave Heretic alone!" He's a grown man and this forum has an ignore function. I suggest you both use it if my posts touch a spot.

Sure, we throw stones, but we don't have a holy book telling us to turn another cheek instead. You're not making a good case for why I'm a hypocrite and he's not, you're just making a case for why I'm a dick and he's a hypocrite. Well, I agree.

Christianity is a pick your own adventure book, eh? Well I wonder what a billion and a half of Christians have to say about that.

I think she made a pretty good case actually you just don't seem to want to acknowledge it.
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#233 Stefan

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:28 PM

Well I hope you can find it in you to forgive me. I know Heretic will. Or not, I don't know if that's one of the chapters he believes.

Depends what version you got.
There's like, fifteen thousand revisions. That way you can never be "officially wrong".
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#234 JLumme

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:55 PM

I am disappointed, Scorp. I expected much better, truly I did.


If it's a battle of wits between you and Scorpio, you're essentially unarmed Bertuzzi Babe.
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#235 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:56 PM

If it's a battle of wits between you and Scorpio, you're essentially unarmed Bertuzzi Babe.


You've obviously not read some of the battles Scorp and I have had in past years. B) :lol:

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 10 July 2012 - 12:57 PM.

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#236 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 01:01 PM

I think she made a pretty good case actually you just don't seem to want to acknowledge it.


Oh I hate when you do that!

Scorp, Scorp, Scorp........

Why is it that you refuse to allow anyone the right to evolve in their thinking and beliefs? You are a great believer in evolution, are you not? Or is that belief only tied to the progression of apes to modern man a'la Darwin?

ev·o·lu·tion


noun

1. any process of formation or growth; development
2. a product of such development;
3. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, andgenetic drift.
4. a process of gradual, peaceful, progressive change or development, as in social or economic structure or institutions.
5.a motion incomplete in itself, but combining with coordinated motionstoproduce a single action, as in a machine

You have been very quick to judge others in any religion vs well, pretty much everything else debate yet despite your lobbying and perceived wish to change other's thinking, you only seem to jump all over them and accuse them of hypocrisy when they do.....change their thinking or belief. You can't have it both ways, my friend, as you only end up confirming what many believe about your posts in religion based topics..........that you participate only to hack and denigrate anyone who believes as a Christian regardless of how many concessions or admissions they may make regarding changes in their beliefs.

The pendulum swings both ways and it is possible to be a Christian and not believe 100% in the literal written word of the Bible. To be a rational, educated Christian who understands that the Bible was written for uneducated people of the times and in many ways, was a tool to control the masses. The Bible also lays out many basic truths and lessons for living a good, productive and healthy life wherein we treat others with respect, kindness and common decency.

You and other non-believers have stated many times that you don't need no damned ancient book and religion to teach you to be a better person. But when I look at the posts in this thread (and in years past, the God thread) it is only the non-Christians I see throwing stones, attacking a man's character and bringing his family into a debate on a bloody hockey board. It's beneath you, Scorp. I've always believed that you're much smarter than this. The Christian(s) in this debate have taken the high road, not resorted to name calling and have avoided stooping to the level of those who cannot seem to understand that the religious beliefs of those who believe in God that post here don't affect your life in any way, shape or form. Perhaps some lessons could be taken from this.


Unfortunately, the hypocrisy I'm seeing in this thread is not coming from Christians, it's coming from the 'anything but religion' crowd.

I congratulate Heretic on his love for his daughter regardless of sexual orientation, for not allowing others who want to throw bricks or allowing religion to dictate the entirety, the complete reality of his life........after all, isn't this what anyone, regardless of religion or non-religion should aspire to? Non-judgmental love for a child, for others, acceptance, common respect, treating others as you would like to be treated yourself?


Some in this thread may not think they need some damned ancient book to show them how to behave, that a belief in Christianity is all or nothing but that is simply not the case. It's more than obvious by the posts in this thread alone, that the lessons of common respect and acceptance of differences in others don't seem to have been found much in the life of some non-believers. Smart Christians, intelligent Christians, knowledgeable Christians are not sheep despite what a good number of non-believers (some of them in this thread) believe.


I'm not refusing to acknowledge Heretic's growth, the evolution of his beliefs, because I simply don't think he is to be credited for this. I may be wrong, but here we have a guy who thought gays chose to be that way and were against what god wants (you know, what the other guy couple of pages back explained), and yet because he has a gay daughter (and I am convinced he found out not too long ago, because we'd have certainly heard about it plenty by now, but this is the second time in the last two months I read about it), his views have recently changed dramatically. Well I'll be a monkey's uncle. And maybe if he was poor he'd be a liberal advocating for social spending instead of being the opposite.. /gasp

Remember this post?

Two Versions:


The ANT AND THE GRASSHOPPER

This one is a little different....
Two Different Versions ....
Two Different Morals





OLD VERSION

The ant works
Hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper
Thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the ant is warm
And well fed.

The grasshopper has
No food or shelter, so he
Dies out in the cold.



MORAL OF THE OLD STORY:


Be responsible for yourself!





NEW VERSION

The ant works hard
In the withering heat and the rain all summer long, building his house
And laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks the ant
Is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the shivering grasshopper
Calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be
Allowed to be warm and well fed while he is cold and starving.

CBS, NBC, PBS, CNN,
And ABC show up to
Provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper
Next to a video of the ant
In his comfortable home with a table filled with food.
America is stunned by the sharp contrast.

How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper
Is allowed to suffer so?

Kermit the Frog appears
On Oprah
With the grasshopper
And everybody cries when they sing, 'It's Not EasyBeing Green...'

Occupy the Anthill stages
A demonstration in front of the ant's
House where the news stations film the SEIU group singing, We shall overcome.

Then Rev. Jeremiah Wright
Has the group kneel down to pray for the grasshopper's sake,

While he damns the ants.


President Obama condems the ant
And blames
President Bush 43, President Bush 41, President Reagan, Christopher Columbus, and the
Pope
For the grasshopper's
Plight..

Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid
Exclaim in an interview with Larry
King that the ant has
Gotten rich off the back of the
Grasshopper,
And both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share.

Finally, the EEOC drafts
The Economic Equity &
Anti-Grasshopper Act
Retroactive to the beginning of
The summer.

The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number
Of green bugs and,
Having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the Government GreenCzar
And given to the grasshopper.

The story ends as we see the grasshopper
And his free-loading friends finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he is in, which, as you recall, just happens to be the ant's old house,
Crumbles around them because the grasshopper doesn't maintain it.

The ant has disappeared in the snow, never to be seen again.

The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident, and the house, now abandoned, is taken
Over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the ramshackle, once prosperous and peaceful, neighborhood.

The entire Nation collapses
Bringing the rest
Of the free world with it.


MORAL OF THE STORY:


Be careful how you vote in 2012.


So you see, poor people danced the summer away and when the winter came, they should have died, but because of OBAMA the entire nation collapsed.

For you to say that I jump all over them all constantly you'd have to show me a post where one changed his mind first. In my recollection this is the first post of its kind. Super19 has been commended before for understanding certain things, for growing as a person; surely you aren't suggesting that I apply the same brush to everyone regardless of their actions. Much respect was shared between myself and Glen, but no... I'm a prick who hates people who disagree with him! I don't like people because they as people give me reason not to. Although I'll admit to making mean comments occasionally that are not deserved, I think the fact I've apologized to you and others publicly indicates that I can be a big person when I'm wrong.

No, the pendulum doesn't swing both ways, religion isn't (presumably) a deck of cards where you pick the ones you want. There are people who study the bible who come to very different conclusions than Heretic, who hopefully finished reading it finally. And sure, there are educated, rational Christians who see right through it... I bet Canuckerbird is one... they puzzle the hell out of me, especially because my mom is smart, educated-a civil engineer, fashion designer, and poetry writer who said to me, "Did you know most actors in Hollywood are Satanists? They wear red bracelets to show it. And have you seen them do the devil horns?" Just because people are able to get educated doesn't mean their critical thinking skills are where they should be. Heretic is a programmer. My friends think I'm a genius because I can install Windows on a computer. What does that tell you about the average person? In other words, to be a programmer one must possess some brainy qualities. Just maybe not critical thinking?

For me to be a hypocrite I'd have to first claim to be against rock throwing, or that I'm a better person, or any other list of nonsense that I don't. I don't have beliefs I have to adhere to in order to rightly call myself "atheist". But I can point out when people say dumb things. There's a guy in this thread making longer posts than this talking about atheists hating religious people, for crying out loud. Well at least we can agree that he's not throwing a rock, more like tripping over himself head first into the glass.

EotM, do I have to continue this? I defended my take on Heretic and my behavior in general before. This is a waste of time. I don't say things I can't explain. Hell, I check the spelling of certain words just to make sure I don't read like most of CDC.

No I don't like some people yes I have good reasons, no I don't really care. I just don't have anything better to do yet.
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Posted Image


Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


Posted Image Hail to the King (PBUH)! Posted Image


#237 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 01:45 PM

Damn, you quoted the original post, now I have to put it back in! :P


But yet you hammer away relentlessly anyway, and the perception is being given that you are trying to change other people beliefs and then won't acknowledge that someone may have changed their perceptions of some things. I've never thought of you as being the guy who keeps notches on his wall next to the computer whenever they best someone in a religious debate on some anonymous message board.......

Have you never changed your thoughts or beliefs about something, Scorp? I'm sure you have. And would you want it constantly thrown back in your face that you used to believe those things? Have you not changed, grown past the times you believed in/of something that has since been changed? Do you expect and accept that the person you used to be then should be repeatedly brought up, thrown in your face, rubbed in repeatedly and as often as possible? Is that fair? Is it right? Unfortunately it just shows something about character........or lack thereof. And in your first paragraph alone, you go for the personal shot against Heretic instead of sticking to the topic at hand. I know an apology for that, and the personal comments about character will not be coming.....I believe your issue with Heretic is a personal one as is evidenced by your many nasty posts with him over the years.......but straying from the discussion at hand and going after his family, his character and his personal life is beneath you.

I don't know about you, but I've known for a hell of a lot longer than a couple of months that Heretic has a gay family member. And what I see, is a father's love for his child trumping his belief in oddly translated, fundamental scriptures..........just as it should be. Why is that wrong? Why is it hypocrisy? Surely, (yes, I called you Shirley :P) growth is possible with Christians too, you know. Why can't you just let it go at that?

Any number of people can read any book and you will come up with a myriad of different interpretations of that one book. That is what has happened with the Bible. It's how old? Been translated how many times? But there are some essential truths in it that have not changed regardless of how many times it's been translated. Or by whom.

You take my comment about intelligent, knowledgeable Christians and attempt to trivialize it. People, Christians and non-Christians alike, have spent their whole lives studying the bible and Christianity, people who have degrees in such fields, critical thinkers. And they all agree that there are some basic truths in the Bible. Even the Christian scholars in the field acknowledge that there is much in the Bible that is contradictory, foolish, and given the context of the times it was written, is about control of an uneducated populace who relied on their church leaders to not lead them astray but instead to keep them on a righteous, controllable path. (Until Jesus showed up, that is :P) The benefit of 2000 and some odd years of hindsight makes our vision regarding this subject 20/20.

What does it matter to you if Heretic or any other Christan on this board chooses to believe what they do? It's a personal choice, you know, those personal choices you have the right to make also. Which you have. What does it matter if it's growth in one's belief system or their personal life, what does it really matter to you? Are you afraid some fundamentalist 'Christian' group will show up on your front lawn and juggle rattle snakes? Some bible thumping Christian is going to tie you to a chair and recite all the 'begats' from Exodus at you for the next 48 hours? That some Christian is going to sneak into your house and put a snore-rigged device under your pillow to turn on and send you subliminal Christian brainwashing messages while you sleep? What?

Hey, isn't it nice outside? Go for a walk, have a cup of coffee........write your next response to me in your head while you smell the roses! :P



.

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 10 July 2012 - 02:04 PM.

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#238 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:02 PM

But yet you hammer away relentlessly anyway, and the perception is being given that you are trying to change other people beliefs and then won't acknowledge that someone may have changed their perceptions of some things. I've never thought of you as being the guy who keeps notches on his wall next to the computer whenever they best someone in a religious debate on some anonymous message board.......

Have you never changed your thoughts or beliefs about something, Scorp? I'm sure you have. And would you want it constantly thrown back in your face that you used to believe those things? Have you not changed, grown past the times you believed in/of something that has since been changed? Do you expect and accept that the person you used to be then should be repeatedly brought up, thrown in your face, rubbed in repeatedly and as often as possible? Is that fair? Is it right? Unfortunately it just shows something about character........or lack thereof. And in your first paragraph alone, you go for the personal shot against Heretic instead of sticking to the topic at hand. I know an apology for that, and the personal comments about character will not be coming.....I believe your issue with Heretic is a personal one as is evidenced by your many nasty posts with him over the years.......but straying from the discussion at hand and going after his family, his character and his personal life is beneath you.

I don't know about you, but I've known for a hell of a lot longer than a couple of months that Heretic has a gay family member. And what I see, is a father's love for his child trumping his belief in oddly translated, fundamental scriptures..........just as it should be. Why is that wrong? Why is it hypocrisy? Surely, (yes, I called you Shirley :P) growth is possible with Christians too, you know. Why can't you just let it go at that?

Any number of people can read any book and you will come up with a myriad of different interpretations of that one book. That is what has happened with the Bible. It's how old? Been translated how many times? But there are some essential truths in it that have not changed regardless of how many times it's been translated. Or by whom.

You take my comment about intelligent, knowledgeable Christians and attempt to trivialize it. People, Christians and non-Christians alike, have spent their whole lives studying the bible and Christianity, people who have degrees in such fields, critical thinkers. And they all agree that there are some basic truths in the Bible. Even the Christian scholars in the field acknowledge that there is much in the Bible that is contradictory, foolish, and given the context of the times it was written, is about control of an uneducated populace who relied on their church leaders to not lead them astray but instead to keep them on a righteous, controllable path. (Until Jesus showed up, that is :P) The benefit of 2000 and some odd years of hindsight makes our vision regarding this subject 20/20.

What does it matter to you if Heretic or any other Christan on this board chooses to believe what they do? It's a personal choice, you know, those personal choices you have the right to make also. Which you have. What does it matter if it's growth in one's belief system or their personal life, what does it really matter to you? Are you afraid some fundamentalist 'Christian' group will show up on your front lawn and juggle rattle snakes? Some bible thumping Christian is going to tie you to a chair and recite all the 'begats' from Exodus at you for the next 48 hours? That some Christian is going to sneak into your house and put a snore-rigged device under your pillow to turn on and send you subliminal Christian brainwashing messages while you sleep? What?

Hey, isn't it nice outside? Go for a walk, have a cup of coffee........write your next response to me in your head while you smell the roses! :P


I agree that I should really be happy that the change took place than focus on why it did. And I am, I just go for the bad stuff when I post. I'm bad like that. And now that you mention it, I do recall reading something about that. Damn, I guess I'm a monkey's uncle. The peculiar thing about me is that religion is really inconsequential in my life. While my friends are religious for the most part, that never stops them from not acting so. They don't really care - they are my kinda religious folk. This topic is so uncommon in my circle of friends that I only recently (2-3 months ago) found out that a few of my friends are atheists. It blew my mind. Yeah, the bible's an old book that's been rewritten many times. Toss it in the trash and we wouldn't have these discussions, because nobody would have to accept their children or justify their sexuality.

I was outside. It's hot and my paleness felt threatened. I like it here, where it's dark and moist.

Finally, he started it. Nobody feels sorry for me! <_<

Edited by Scorpio Ego, 10 July 2012 - 02:09 PM.

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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#239 D-Money

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:37 PM

First off, grand sweeping statements, basically saying, "if you don't believe/disbelieve exactly what I do, you're an idiot", are the essence of ignorance.

Secondly, since the topic directly references the bible, there's no reason to beat around the bush. The Bible is very much against the practice of homosexuality. Just as it is against sex-before-marriage, drunkenness, use of idols, etc., etc. It's right there in black-and-white - arguing against that is a dead-end street.

How does the bible indicate Christians react to those who practice these things? 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 mentions many of them, but then in verse 11 it states "that is what some of you were". The Christians in the bible didn't hate/attack people that didn't live according to Christianity. They told people about "the good news", why it was beneficial to change, and then let them choose what to do with their lives. Some listened, but most rejected it and continued doing things differently.

The bible is quite clear on most things. It doesn't need fanciful "interpretations" to transform and twist it into whatever fits what you want to do (exactly what was foretold at 2 Timothy 4:3-4). If you don't want to live by what it says, then don't. And if you do, then do - just don't hate or look down on others that chose differently. Denying someone their freedom of choice is as unchristian as anything else, and no one likes a hypocrite.

So why would anyone voluntary change their lives to conform to a 2,000 year-old book? Personally, I am a Christian, and try to live my life by what's in the bible. I do this because I see the benefits firsthand - I am happier and more fulfilled this way. I am healthier, more productive, and kinder to others. I have found truly kind, caring, and loving friends who I can completely trust. I also don't sit around pondering the questions many have raised in this thread ("Why does God allow cancer/earthquakes/etc."), because I have found real, fulfilling answers to these in the bible. So to put it simply, I do it because it works.

But it's not just me - I have also seen many others' lives improve greatly by studying the bible and adopting the Christian lifestyle. Not only are their own lives better, but they become better family members and neighbours too, so others have benefited as well. On the flip-side I have also known others who once lived by the bible decide to reject it, sometimes with terrible consequences (broken families, estranged children, drug addiction, prison, dying from AIDS...). Both of these groups have included homosexuals.

There are real benefits and real answers to be found in the bible, no matter what your current lifestyle or beliefs. If you have looked into the bible (note: not religion, just the bible) and disagree, then fine. If you don't even care to look, that's fine too. It's completely up to you, as it was to me.

Edited by D-Money, 10 July 2012 - 02:48 PM.

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#240 Sharpshooter

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:53 PM

Being the usual voice of peace, acceptance and reason that I naturally am.....i'd like to just say/add this if I can, for whatever it's worth.

*ahem*

Once I was blind...but now I see.

Once you were blind, but perhaps now you see.

In perhaps one small area of his perception of homosexuality, gay marriage, gay-dom, same-sexuality, there were some who for whatever brainwashed dogmatic reason, were also blind or oblivious until they were blind-sided by something that hit home and resonated and forced them to see with a perhaps evolved sense of acceptance, sight, perception, understanding, etc.

Point being, and again, for whatever it's worth to whom-so-ever chooses to heed my words without taking umbrage, people, even the most strident and looniest of cracker eaters can change when something inside them, their brains, their understanding, their 'hearts', their loved ones, their world around them changes.

Some of us.....well, we choose to fight the fight against the ignorant whenever and wherever we are able to. Lord Vishnu knows that by Odin's beard, i've fought a'plenty myself. The one thing I tried to do when the opportunity arose, which wasn't often round these parts, was to give the occasional terrorist fist bump to those who stepped out of their comfort zone to acknowledge a new perspective or view on something they long believed or railed against, a page, a thread, or some time previously. It should be ok to have epiphanies. It should also be ok to acknowledge and give a fella a pat on the back, even if briefly or for a one narrow specific change of heart, tune, or perception. We should celebrate growth.....before we go back to the trenches.....if indeed that's where you end back up.

If someone has changed their minds on homosexuality or homosexuals, or their civil rights, even in the face of their religious dogmatic beliefs, church teachings and peer pressure not to....then I say well done, and hope that particular opening in their cemented and demented religious wall of nonsense allows them, when they're ready, to take another step forward in accepting homosexuals, or perhaps remove another brick down the road in order to see them not as something to be despised or felt sorry for, but as equal to themselves, even in their sexual preferential differences. No need to mock or deride those who have come to the same conclusion I have. I'm just glad that someone or anyone has arrived there as well. It took me a little while to get here, I shamefully but truthfully admit, and i recognize that it may take others longer or shorter periods of time perhaps to as well. The most important part, is that they get here and come to see 'the light'.
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