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Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences


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#1501 Heretic

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:02 PM

may we and the planet we live on would be better off if this was the case .


or maybe we'd be extinct - like the neanderthal....
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
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#1502 J.R.

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:04 PM

And try to "convert" more people to join their groups!!!


I could care less if you or anybody else becomes an Atheist. I think it's a tad foolish and un-evolved to believe in fairy tales but so long as they do, what I would prefer, is that they keep them to their damn selves. Keep them out of our education system, government or anything else that negatively effects the general public.

You can believe whatever backwards, demented, fantasy you like but if you want the right to impact other people you MUST be able to provide ACTUAL EVIDENCE that supports your crackpot horse manure before inflicting it on the public as some sort of "truth".
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"Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you."
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#1503 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:06 PM

What is with all the insults? You can't argue a point like a mature person? You might disagree with something, fine but don't insult people and call them idiots. Just make your point to answer their questions, no need for the extra crap added in at the end. This is why CDC has a crap reputation. No one can discuss something without getting insulted.


Don't start fires if you can't take the heat. You know, sorta like you're doing now by replying to a post that wasn't directed at you.

Nevlanch responded for himself, very capably.

If you're still smarting from the previous smack I gave you, perhaps you should go cry in the corner for a bit and come back when your bottom is less sore.

I'll say it again, if you come into a discussion behaving like an ignoramous, don't be surprised if you're called out as being an ignoramous.

You can continue down this tangent if you'd like.
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#1504 Nevlach

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:09 PM

I could care less if you or anybody else becomes an Atheist. I think it's a tad foolish and un-evolved to believe in fairy tales but so long as they do, what I would prefer, is that they keep them to their damn selves. Keep them out of our education system, government or anything else that negatively effects the general public.

You can believe whatever backwards, demented, fantasy you like but if you want the right to impact other people you MUST be able to provide ACTUAL EVIDENCE that supports your crackpot horse manure before inflicting it on the public as some sort of "truth".

Yeah man I too don't care if someone is an atheist, theist or whatever, when it comes to religion keep it out of political decisions and decisions that effect us and the public at large. I don't care if someone 2000 years ago said men shouldn't have sex with men...wake up and smell 2012 grandma and give them their dam* rights already.
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#1505 Pouria

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:13 PM

Don't start fires if you can't take the heat. You know, sorta like you're doing now by replying to a post that wasn't directed at you.

Nevlanch responded for himself, very capably.

If you're still smarting from the previous smack I gave you, perhaps you should go cry in the corner for a bit and come back when your bottom is less sore.

I'll say it again, if you come into a discussion behaving like an ignoramous, don't be surprised if you're called out as being an ignoramous.

You can continue down this tangent if you'd like.


Oh..am sure you never criticize my post when it is directed at someone else but when I criticize your post, its "don't start fires if you can't take the heat". I don't care who your post is directed at but calling people "ignoramous" takes away the credibility of your post.

But..."You can continue down this tangent if you'd like."
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#1506 J.R.

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:23 PM

Oh..am sure you never criticize my post when it is directed at someone else but when I criticize your post, its "don't start fires if you can't take the heat". I don't care who your post is directed at but calling people "ignoramous" takes away the credibility of your post.

But..."You can continue down this tangent if you'd like."


No offense (and Sharp is foolishly doing his part to contribute, so don't feel like I'm picking sides here) but if all you're going to do is come in here and "cheer-lead", bicker and derail....you're not being a part of the solution.

He has, on the other hand, actually contributed content to the discussion. Perhaps you can both veer back in THAT direction rather than continue the pointless, digital pissing contest?

Edited by J.R., 25 September 2012 - 04:24 PM.

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#1507 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:26 PM

You'd probably get through to more people if you weren't such a dick my friend haha.

In anycase I would say your problem is trying to put words in my mouth. My only point is that both groups share similarities. They tend to group by like minded associations and common beliefs (and by beliefs I don't mean a belief in God, I mean naturalism, materialism, secularism, humanism etc).

I never said it made them the same thing, though regardless of whether one believes, lacks a belief, or does not believe they have made a stand with regards to the supernatural.

Again I never was claiming atheism and theism were the same. I never was even talking about atheism and religion (as concepts, I was talking about associations where atheism and theism are a common belief trait within). (There is a difference between atheism, theism, deism and religions...as I've said many times).

You can say I'm making a complete logic fail some more if you'd like. People say lots of things that =\= the truth. Every time today I've read one of your responses to what I write I question whether you bothered to read it at all or whether you just don't like the idea that someone could see similarities between two groups when one of those groups you want to be a distant from as possible.

Of course if you want to say I'm equating atheism and religion or belief one more time I'm sure there's plenty of straw left in the hayfield.


It's not my job to get through to anyone, or to mollycoddle them either. If I get through to people who are willing to listen to my arguments, great, if not, great. I generally have a low tolerance for b.s., even if it's coming from a friend or someone I respect.

And I didn't put any words in your mouth, because I addressed the fact that you were trying to use the similarities angle between Atheists and the religious as a way of insinuating that they were similar. Do you need me to go quote mining in your previous posts to show you where you say that Atheism sure seems to be like a religion. These kinds of dog-whistles don't fall on only deaf ears. I recognized what you were saying and why you were saying it.

Again, there may be similarities between people who are Atheist and people who are religious, but the similarities of the people, which is what I figured you meant and stated so, does not mean that Atheism and Theism are actually similar.

The logic fail was a failure of syllogism. You attempted to say in essence that apple eaters eat fruit, orange is a fruit, therefor apple-eaters eat oranges....which is a logical fallacy, as is saying that in essence that Atheists are similar to (Christians) the religious. The religious have a set of beliefs. Atheists have a set of beliefs, therefore Atheism is similar to a religion.

You can feign like you didn't say anything like that and that you're perplexed at how 'this' all started, that's your call.

There no straw being pulled here...only a bunch of fertilizer that JR and I have been pointing to, that you and TOML have been been sprinkling as you walk.

Anyways, this is a complete tangent. If you want to continue on it, go ahead, i'm kinda bored with the semantics game.
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#1508 J.R.

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:30 PM

Yeah man I too don't care if someone is an atheist, theist or whatever, when it comes to religion keep it out of political decisions and decisions that effect us and the public at large. I don't care if someone 2000 years ago said men shouldn't have sex with men...wake up and smell 2012 grandma and give them their dam* rights already.


That's not the current system we live under though is it? Sure we have a "technical" separation of church and state but the reality is much different and religion currently has this free pass, why exactly?

I would like to see that pass revoked.

Edited by J.R., 25 September 2012 - 04:33 PM.

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- Neil deGrasse Tyson

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#1509 Nevlach

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:42 PM

It's not my job to get through to anyone, or to mollycoddle them either. If I get through to people who are willing to listen to my arguments, great, if not, great. I generally have a low tolerance for b.s., even if it's coming from a friend or someone I respect.

And I didn't put any words in your mouth, because I addressed the fact that you were trying to use the similarities angle between Atheists and the religious as a way of insinuating that they were similar. Do you need me to go quote mining in your previous posts to show you where you say that Atheism sure seems to be like a religion. These kinds of dog-whistles don't fall on only deaf ears. I recognized what you were saying and why you were saying it.

Again, there may be similarities between people who are Atheist and people who are religious, but the similarities of the people, which is what I figured you meant and stated so, does not mean that Atheism and Theism are actually similar.

The logic fail was a failure of syllogism. You attempted to say in essence that apple eaters eat fruit, orange is a fruit, therefor apple-eaters eat oranges....which is a logical fallacy, as is saying that in essence that Atheists are similar to (Christians) the religious. The religious have a set of beliefs. Atheists have a set of beliefs, therefore Atheism is similar to a religion.

You can feign like you didn't say anything like that and that you're perplexed at how 'this' all started, that's your call.

There no straw being pulled here...only a bunch of fertilizer that JR and I have been pointing to, that you and TOML have been been sprinkling as you walk.

Anyways, this is a complete tangent. If you want to continue on it, go ahead, i'm kinda bored with the semantics game.

"Seems to be like ___" does not equate to "Is definitely a ___"
Thus, I never said atheism is a religion. I only wanted people to realize the similarities between the groups. Both promoting certain beliefs and values trying to convince others that they are good beliefs and values and that they have the truth (as opposed to those other guys!). It's not just religious groups trying to convert/convince others that they are right.

I think where people really misunderstood me was that it seemed like I was implying both groups push unsupported fanciful ideas on others. If that's how I came across then my bad. I certainly wasn't expecting it to turn into a huge deal. I thought the similarities in my first check list were fairly obvious (point at the time was I could understand how some might confuse atheism as a religion).

And I know you like to be blunt, to the point, and throw in witty remarks - it's all good.

But yeah have we gone around the merry-go-round enough for one day? haha
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#1510 Nevlach

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:44 PM

That's not the current system we live under though is it? Sure we have a "technical" separation of church and state but the reality is much different and religion currently has this free pass, why exactly?

I would like to see that pass revoked.

That's a good question. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it.
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#1511 Heretic

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:48 PM

I could care less if you or anybody else becomes an Atheist. I think it's a tad foolish and un-evolved to believe in fairy tales but so long as they do, what I would prefer, is that they keep them to their damn selves. Keep them out of our education system, government or anything else that negatively effects the general public.

You can believe whatever backwards, demented, fantasy you like but if you want the right to impact other people you MUST be able to provide ACTUAL EVIDENCE that supports your crackpot horse manure before inflicting it on the public as some sort of "truth".


See, that's what TML's is saying - you're not an atheist - you're an anti-theist.

My dad (and some of my friends) are atheists.

Even when I was an atheist, I didn't go out of my way to slam/belittle/make fun of/etc those who believe in God and neither do they.

Edited by Heretic, 25 September 2012 - 04:49 PM.

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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#1512 Kass9

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:50 PM

I've been reading this thread for a long time, but this is my first time posting.

What I can conclude:
People throwing insults at each other just because they can't prove their point.

Carry on!
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#1513 J.R.

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:54 PM

See, that's what TML's is saying - you're not an atheist - you're an anti-theist.

My dad (and some of my friends) are atheists.

Even when I was an atheist, I didn't go out of my way to slam/belittle/make fun of/etc those who believe in God and neither do they.


I'm not anti-theist I'm anti-crackpot horse manure shoved down my throat and in to public systems. Show me actual credible evidence for a supreme being and I will gladly be responsive to it.

Edited by J.R., 25 September 2012 - 04:55 PM.

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#1514 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:55 PM

I've been reading this thread for a long time, but this is my first time posting.

What I can conclude:
People throwing insults at each other just because they can't prove their point.

Carry on!


Incorrect, some of us can throw insults while proving our points. We're veterans of the God Thread. B)
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#1515 J.R.

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:56 PM

That's a good question. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it.


No. It does not.
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#1516 SkeeterHansen

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:58 PM

Every day I see this thread, I'm going to post a religious joke. Lighten the mood a bit...you guys are so hostile about something so (dare I say) trivial.

Anyways....Day #1, Joke #1

One bright, beautiful Sunday morning, everyone in tiny Jonestown wakes up early and goes to their local church. Before the service starts, the townspeople sit in their pews and talk about their lives and their families.

Suddenly, at the altar, Satan appears!! Everyone starts screaming and running for the front entrance, trampling each other in their determined efforts to get away from Evil Incarnate. Soon, everyone is evacuated from the church except for one man, who sit calmly in his pew, seemingly oblivious to the fact that God's ultimate enemy is in his presence. This confuses Satan a bit. Satan walks up to the man and says, "Hey, don't you know who I am?" The man says, "Yep, sure do."

Satan says, "Well, aren't you afraid of me?" The man says, "Nope, sure ain't."

Satan, perturbed, says, "And why aren't you afraid of me?" The man says, "Well, I've been married to your sister for 25 years."

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#1517 Heretic

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 05:03 PM

I'm not anti-theist I'm anti-crackpot horse manure shoved down my throat and in to public systems. Show me actual credible evidence for a supreme being and I will gladly be responsive to it.


^^^ is proof that J.R. is an anti theist.
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#1518 Nevlach

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 05:09 PM

^^^ is proof that J.R. is an anti theist.

But you're not saying theism = crackpot horse manure right Heretic :)
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#1519 Jägermeister

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 07:05 PM

^^^ is proof that J.R. is an anti theist.


Being anti-organized religion, and being anti-theist are 2 seperate things.
I don't deny the fact that their could be some sort of deity out there, there very well could be who knows, but I still think that organized religion is not a good thing for the human race.

Edited by Jagermeister, 25 September 2012 - 07:05 PM.

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#1520 Pouria

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 07:27 PM

Another one of religion's fallacious arguments.

"Science cannot prove that god does not exist, therefore he exists."

The whole point, is that at least science makes an effort to explain things in our world. Religion simply makes claims that have no foundation in anything real, and make no effort to back those claims. It's the methodology and mind-set behind religion that makes it so backward.

"Believe it or suffer eternal damnation!"


Another argument would be that if science cannot prove something exist, then it does not exist? So science cannot prove that there are living beings outside of our planet that might be 1 million light years away from our solar system. So does that mean there are no living beings outside of our planet with 100% certainty because humans still don't have the ability to discover what is 1 million light years away from our planet? How can you say with certainty something exist or not exist when you can't even examine it just like my scenario? Now forget about what religious people say or religion for that matter and tell me if am wrong or right? Am not religious, but am just looking at this situation from a neutral point of view and questioning it.
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#1521 Pouria

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 07:36 PM

Incorrect,some of us can throw insults while proving our points. We're veterans of the God Thread. B)


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#1522 Tom-The-Great

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:27 PM

Another argument would be that if science cannot prove something exist, then it does not exist? So science cannot prove that there are living beings outside of our planet that might be 1 million light years away from our solar system. So does that mean there are no living beings outside of our planet with 100% certainty because humans still don't have the ability to discover what is 1 million light years away from our planet? How can you say with certainty something exist or not exist when you can't even examine it just like my scenario? Now forget about what religious people say or religion for that matter and tell me if am wrong or right? Am not religious, but am just looking at this situation from a neutral point of view and questioning it.


you are right, there probably is life outside the solar system.. no way for us to prove there is or isnt right now.. HOWEVER.. there's a HUGE difference in saying "we cant prove there is or isnt LIFE elsewhere" and "we cant prove if there is or isnt some random magical all seeing all knowing sky babysitter who created everything"
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#1523 Fathoms

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:52 PM

According to Joseph Campell myths are the dramatic projection and personification of energies which exist inside the human being. This begs the question of course, is the self nothing more than a personification of this same energy?

Is identity a tangible thing? or is it a metaphor or a story?


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wordings...

#1524 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 09:06 PM

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Edited by Sharpshooter, 25 September 2012 - 09:07 PM.

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#1525 Mr.DirtyDangles

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 09:20 PM

So you started with the first one...and then ended with the first one. Even if I gave you the first one, which I don't, the argument can still be made that atheism resembles a religious organization pretty darn close.

Buddhists don't typically believe in a God either...or sorry "lack a belief in a god" but yet they're still a religion.

If you want to pretend that lacking a belief in god automatically exempts atheism from potentially someday being classified as it's own religion then by all means go ahead. It doesn't change the fact that it does resemble a religious organization or that there are groups of atheists who not only lack a belief but also do not believe. We can't make the mistake of generalizing all atheists as simply people who lack belief, though doubtless there are many.

Just because you don't like the similarities doesn't mean you can just throw em out the window.

edit
Notice I never said atheism was a religion - similar to how deism or theism is not a religion - but atheism is certainly starting to resemble a religious organization based on how (I would say anyway) the majority of atheists carry themselves.


Siddartha Gautama says hi ! aka BUDDHA( the awakened one) the names sake for their RELIGION. That being said you are correct sir religion does not require a God to exist.

The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system; however, in the words of Émile Durkheim, religion differs from private belief in that it is "something eminently social".[3] A global 2012 poll reports that 59% of the world's population is religious, 23% are not religious, and 13% are atheists.[4]


Many religions may have organized behaviors, clergy, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, holy places, and scriptures. The practice of a religion may also include rituals, sermons, commemoration or veneration a god or gods, sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trance, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, prayer, music, art, dance, public service or other aspects of human culture. Religions may also contain mythology.[2]


The only real difference between Buddhism and every other religion is that in Buddhism anyone can attain Buddha hood, meaning we are all gods in training. I do not believe that A God exists but rather that extremely intelligent beings (from this planet or maybe another?) with vast amounts of learned knowledge were trying to enlighten mankind. Thus perceived as God or Gods.

Buddhist legend holds that during his lifetime Buddha FLEW ? Yes Flew to Sri Lanka and left his footprint on Adam's Peak to indicate the importance of Sri Lanka as the perpetuator of his teachings, and also left footprints in all lands where his teachings would be acknowledged.


....but when you really break this down all religions are claiming supernatural powers or abilities of their perceived God's etc. I dont know about you but I see no X men running around in the real world. Society can believe in what they want for all I care but everyone needs to acquire true knowledge based on rational empirical EVIDENCE to support their belief system. Without this (and there can be no argument here) we have no clear proof of anything.

Edited by vanfan73, 25 September 2012 - 11:17 PM.

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#1526 Mr.DirtyDangles

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 11:12 PM

What is with all the insults? You can't argue a point like a mature person? You might disagree with something, fine but don't insult people and call them idiots. Just make your point to answer their questions, no need for the extra crap added in at the end. This is why CDC has a crap reputation. No one can discuss something without getting insulted.


Sharps delivery definitely is not the most subtle but after missing his clear and logical points time and time again I cannot blame him. I imagine others who share similar views backed by scientific evidence are deeply insulted and infuriated by the fables of religious sheep who have no real proof to back up their claims of supernatural deities and their supposed creation of the universe. We live in an age of gathered information, tests and results. Show us some valid science, axioms if you will on the matter and maybe the response wont be so harsh. It is like telling me to my face while outside staring at the blue sky and you say it is green.

Edited by vanfan73, 25 September 2012 - 11:16 PM.

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#1527 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:12 AM

or maybe we'd be extinct - like the neanderthal....


I have already pointed out before that the neanderthal is not extinct

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I am not joking when i say this person is living proof neanderthal mated with homosapiens .
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#1528 Wolfman Jack

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 04:42 AM

There is no reason religion and science can't co-exist, religion is like Philosophy, problem I see is too many people feel they have to pick one side and reject the other. Religious people often tend to decide on an answer and reject anything that contradicts it, anti-theists sometimes don't like the answer they found and go looking for ways to disprove it. I have my spiritual side, but don't really practice any belief system, I try to learn from many different beliefs as well as scientific research and accept what makes sense and reject or put aside what doesn't.

Knowledge, Intelligence, and Wisdom are three totally different things, many of the posters I have seen on this thread have plenty of knowledge but seem to be short on the other two. Knowledge is useless without the intelligence to apply it, intelligence can be outright dangerous without the wisdom to apply (or not apply) it responsibly.
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#1529 Heretic

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 07:13 AM

you are right, there probably is life outside the solar system.. no way for us to prove there is or isnt right now.. HOWEVER.. there's a HUGE difference in saying "we cant prove there is or isnt LIFE elsewhere" and "we cant prove if there is or isnt some random magical all seeing all knowing sky babysitter who created everything"


See? That's the point.

Why can't you (and others) just say:

"we cant prove there is or isn't LIFE elsewhere" and "we cant prove if there is or isn't LIFE outside the universe"

Instead you have to have your little slam against religion or the Bible or whatever.

Does it make you feel better? Is that why you do it?
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#1530 Nevlach

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 07:36 AM

There is no reason religion and science can't co-exist, religion is like Philosophy, problem I see is too many people feel they have to pick one side and reject the other. Religious people often tend to decide on an answer and reject anything that contradicts it, anti-theists sometimes don't like the answer they found and go looking for ways to disprove it. I have my spiritual side, but don't really practice any belief system, I try to learn from many different beliefs as well as scientific research and accept what makes sense and reject or put aside what doesn't.

Knowledge, Intelligence, and Wisdom are three totally different things, many of the posters I have seen on this thread have plenty of knowledge but seem to be short on the other two. Knowledge is useless without the intelligence to apply it, intelligence can be outright dangerous without the wisdom to apply (or not apply) it responsibly.

Yeah I tend agree with your post. There's actually some really good books I've just read in the last few months about the co-existence of science and religion. It definitely doesn't have to be one or the other unless your a fundie and feel the need to think of the Bible as a "perfect infallible must take literally everything inside book."
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