Jump to content

Welcome to canucks.com Vancouver Canucks homepage

Photo
* * - - - 3 votes

*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
6226 replies to this topic

#2461 The Bookie

The Bookie

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,966 posts
  • Joined: 10-May 10

Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:50 AM

Again, all those internal problems ie. team revenue sharing, players contracts need to be resolved internally by the league and by the team itself...all the players need to be concerned about is that their contracts are honored and their percentage of HRR. As an employee all I know is I get paid a steady cheque, the company is not going to place the burden/responsibility of their financial problems and contract issues on me because it's not my responsibility, it's the company's.


They're not employees in the sense that you mean. The amount they get paid is tied to revenue. The NHL in a sense is more like a Co-Op than a Corporation.
  • 0

#2462 Mauii

Mauii

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,156 posts
  • Joined: 28-January 06

Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:11 AM

They're not employees in the sense that you mean. The amount they get paid is tied to revenue. The NHL in a sense is more like a Co-Op than a Corporation.


Yes, that's why I said that all that the players need to be concerned about is their contracts being honored and the HRR, as it will affect their salary. The players do not and should not be made responsible for the poor business practices/decisions of the NHL or team. Those matters should be resolved internally by the league/team.

Edited by Mauii, 09 November 2012 - 01:11 AM.

  • 0
"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil."

#2463 Edler's Mind Tricks

Edler's Mind Tricks

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,890 posts
  • Joined: 05-March 10

Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:14 AM

Except that they haven't and the rich owners will never agree to giving up their bottom line.
  • 0

Hockey Management Intern for UBC Thunderbirds.
Associate Editor for Dobber Sports Network.
Designing a UBC Hockey Management Degree.


#2464 The Bookie

The Bookie

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,966 posts
  • Joined: 10-May 10

Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:19 AM

Mauii - then why include your employee metaphor? Irrelevant.

Neither sides are giving up their bottom line, hence the situation we're in right now.
  • 0

#2465 The Bookie

The Bookie

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,966 posts
  • Joined: 10-May 10

Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:21 AM

Here's a succinct article from Gary Lawless at the Winnipeg Free Press:


NHL talks: Easier said than done


NEW YORK -- They are pushing the boulder up the hill, be it ever so slowly. They may get to the top, but there is still a chance they slip and the rock rolls right over them on its way back to the bottom.
The NHL and NHLPA met for the third consecutive day on Thursday and continued to hammer away at each other in an attempt to end the 54-day-old lockout and get the players back on the ice.
The two sides have sat across from one another in meeting rooms for over 20 hours this week in the first substantial stretch of bargaining since last season.
"I don't really have much to say. We met with the players' association the last three days and we're planning on meeting again (today)," said NHL commissioner Gary Bettman. "But I'm not going to discuss the negotiations or the substance of what we're talking about. I really don't think that would be helpful for the process."
NHLPA executive director Don Fehr stayed on the same page as Bettman in terms of revealing any details.
"I'm not going to comment on the substance of the discussions at this stage," said Fehr. "I'm not going to characterize it except to say, as I have before, that it's always better when you're meeting than when you're not."
A source said late Thursday a deal was several days away -- if one was to be had at all. Progress has been slow and at times the talks have been halting. There has been no conclusion on any of the main sticking points; revenue sharing, contracting rights and the process of guaranteeing the players the full value of already-signed contracts despite a drop in their revenue share from 57 per cent to 50.
The bottom line is the two parties are still far apart in a number of areas. Yes, they are talking, but still not always in the same language.
"We have work to do and my hope is we can achieve getting a long-term fair agreement in place as quickly as possible so we can play hockey," said Bettman. "Every day that passes I think is critical for the game and our fans."
The union made two offers to the league on Wednesday, one on revenue sharing and another on the "make-whole" provision.
The league made counter-offers on both issues Thursday. A source said Thursday there is still "significant divide on major issues."
The union wants to increase the revenue sharing pot from the current $140 million to $250 million and it also wants to alter the qualifying criteria.
The NHLPA introduced a make-whole proposal based on a gradual reduction of the players' hockey related revenue from 57 per cent to 50 per cent over a three-year period, likely beginning at 54 per cent in Year 1 and sliding down to 50 in Year 3.
The NHL had asked the union to keep the time and place of meetings this week secret to prevent adding fuel to an already hot subject among the hockey media.
For two days the two sides met without the prying eyes of reporters. But on Thursday, frustrated with the slow flow of information, the media uncovered the location and descended upon it late in the afternoon.
The union, upon being alerted that the media were waiting outside, quickly agreed to make Fehr available. Once he spoke the league determined they would make Bettman available.
Both men greeted the media with jokes. Fehr suggested to the shivering group of about 10 reporters from New York, Winnipeg and Toronto, that they get different jobs.
Bettman wanted to know how his hidden lair was uncovered.
"How did you find us? You followed the players? Oooohhh. Who did you follow? You won't give up your sources?" said Bettman with a smile on his face.
The commissioner would not offer up a characterization of how far along the process had gone and whether it would soon result in the consummation of a deal.
"Collective bargaining is a process and it has peaks and valleys and ebbs and flows and it's very tough to handicap," said Bettman. "I don't know what Don said but the fact is we have a lot of work to do and we're working hard. We're in a series of meetings and we'll meet again (today) and hopefully it will lead us to the right place."
Fehr said evaluating the day's discussions wouldn't be responsible or accurate immediately following the session.
"There's a couple of reasons. But from my end -- anybody from the NHL can speak for themselves -- sometimes when you get into discussions, first of all you've got obligations to report to your constituency first," said the well-tenured labour leader. "The second thing is that you hear some things and you need to think about it and you need to work on it and you need to formulate an appropriate response. And sometimes that becomes more difficult if you've talked publicly about it before you've gone through the work."


My personal thought is he's right on with the 'few days away' quote. I think they'd like to have a deal reached by Monday, but they've given themselves next week as a fall-back period if they hit stumbling blocks. Nov. 23 was supposed to be the start of the season from NBC's perspective, but with games cancelled until December, I think the idea is to have made the announcement and have training camps starting then with games starting Dec. 1st - most likely a 60 game season.

I wonder, if they have to draw up a new schedule for the season, if they'll put some other big game in place for Jan. 1st, or just schedule a series of iconic rivalry style matchups.
  • 0

#2466 Boudrias

Boudrias

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,197 posts
  • Joined: 14-January 04

Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:59 AM

Now you're an economist? The economy is improving and will for quite a while. Not that it matters. The NHL grew irrespective of the recession.

I don't have to be an economist to see what is happening on the street. I have enough business background to understand how fragile the economy is the USA and contrary to popular Canadian myth how fragile it is in Canada as well. The NHL predictions at + 5% and the NHLPA at + 7% revenue growth over the term of a new CBA are pie in the sky. GDP growth at 2.5% is massively discounted by non-political observers.

You can take comfort in NHL growth predictions but my caution is that expensive entertainment like the NHL are the first victims of recession. Since the NHL is still greatly impacted by gate receipts I have to suspect their growth forecasts.
  • 0

#2467 Shift-4

Shift-4

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,452 posts
  • Joined: 11-August 06

Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:03 AM

I wonder, if they have to draw up a new schedule for the season, if they'll put some other big game in place for Jan. 1st, or just schedule a series of iconic rivalry style matchups.


I have always felt that the scheduling wizards already have backup schedules in place should the season start at different dates.
  • 1
Hockey is the only sport, the rest are just games.

#2468 Shift-4

Shift-4

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,452 posts
  • Joined: 11-August 06

Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:15 AM

Didn't see this posted http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409136

NHLPA'S FEHR SENDS MEMO TO PLAYERS; WORK NEEDED TO BE DONE


NHL Players' Association executive director Donald Fehr sent a memo to the players following Thursday's meeting with the league:
Today, we met with the NHL off and on over several hours. A number of matters were discussed, including our proposal for a new pension plan, revenue sharing, the players' share and salary cap issues, and the owners' "make whole" concept. Present today were Chris Campoli, Mathieu Darche, Ron Hainsey, Johan Hedberg, Manny Malhotra, and Kevin Westgarth (David Backes was present for part of the day), as well as Mathieu Schneider, Joe Reekie, Steve Webb and Rob Zamuner.
No new proposals were exchanged on pension issues, but we will discuss this issue again tomorrow (Friday). We did receive a proposal on revenue sharing in response to the proposal we made this week, but this subject still needs considerable work.

In addition, we received a revamped proposal covering players' share and cap issues, their so-called "make whole", and player contracting issues. The owners finally did formally give us their "make whole" idea, which in dollar terms is similar to the discussions Bill Daly had with Steve Fehr a few days ago. While a step forward, a significant gap remains. Moreover, at the same time we were told that the owners want an "immediate reset" to 50/50 (which would significantly reduce the salary cap) and that their proposals to restrict crucial individual contracting rights must be agreed to. As you know, these include - among other things - losing a year of salary arbitration eligibility, allowing the team to file for salary arbitration in any year that the player can file, extending UFA eligibility to age 28 or 8 seasons, limiting contracts to 5 years, and permitting only 5% year to year variability in player contracts. Individually each is bad for players; taken together they would significantly reduce a player's bargaining power and give the owner much more leverage over a player for most if not all of his career.
In short, the concessions on future salary we have offered (at least $948 Million to $1.25 Billion over five years, depending on HRR growth) are not enough. We are still being told that more salaries must be conceded, and that very valuable player contracting rights must be surrendered. So, while we are meeting again, and while some steps are being taken, there is still a lot of work to be done and bridges to be crossed before an agreement can be made.
We will review today's discussions over night and tomorrow morning before meeting again with the owners. Following our meeting tomorrow with the league, we will be able to provide a broader update.
As always, please contact us if you have any questions or comments.
Best regards.
Don
On Wednesday night, the NHLPA tabled new offers regarding revenue sharing and the league's "make whole" provision, with the union suggesting a system where the players' share in revenue reaches 50-50 in the third year of the deal.
The NHL and the NHLPA gathered for a fourth straight day of collective bargaining talks on Friday -- the longest run of meetings they've had during these negotiations.



After reading it my optimism remains non-existent.
  • 1
Hockey is the only sport, the rest are just games.

#2469 playboi19

playboi19

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,412 posts
  • Joined: 15-August 08

Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:02 AM

The NHL doesn't want to lose another year. Fehr just wants to get the best deal possible, whether that be now or in the summer.

I think the NHL will cave, that's what Fehr is banking on.
  • 0

Subbancopy.jpg


#2470 -Vintage Canuck-

-Vintage Canuck-

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 70,471 posts
  • Joined: 24-May 10

Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:34 AM

@SNChrisSimpson: Bobby Orr says he feels more positive about a deal being done. Says shame on them if they don't. Listening Gary & Don?
  • 0

307mg00.jpg


#2471 DeNiro

DeNiro

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,026 posts
  • Joined: 22-April 08

Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:47 PM

So they're back to using the media to sway public opinion...

There's no way that letter should have ever been released. No doubt that it's a way for the NHLPA to get the facts out to the fans so that they can see that it's the NHL's fault.
  • 0

Posted Image


"Dream until the dream come true"


#2472 Boudrias

Boudrias

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,197 posts
  • Joined: 14-January 04

Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:37 PM

Didn't see this posted http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409136

NHLPA'S FEHR SENDS MEMO TO PLAYERS; WORK NEEDED TO BE DONE


NHL Players' Association executive director Donald Fehr sent a memo to the players following Thursday's meeting with the league:
Today, we met with the NHL off and on over several hours. A number of matters were discussed, including our proposal for a new pension plan, revenue sharing, the players' share and salary cap issues, and the owners' "make whole" concept. Present today were Chris Campoli, Mathieu Darche, Ron Hainsey, Johan Hedberg, Manny Malhotra, and Kevin Westgarth (David Backes was present for part of the day), as well as Mathieu Schneider, Joe Reekie, Steve Webb and Rob Zamuner.
No new proposals were exchanged on pension issues, but we will discuss this issue again tomorrow (Friday). We did receive a proposal on revenue sharing in response to the proposal we made this week, but this subject still needs considerable work.

In addition, we received a revamped proposal covering players' share and cap issues, their so-called "make whole", and player contracting issues. The owners finally did formally give us their "make whole" idea, which in dollar terms is similar to the discussions Bill Daly had with Steve Fehr a few days ago. While a step forward, a significant gap remains. Moreover, at the same time we were told that the owners want an "immediate reset" to 50/50 (which would significantly reduce the salary cap) and that their proposals to restrict crucial individual contracting rights must be agreed to. As you know, these include - among other things - losing a year of salary arbitration eligibility, allowing the team to file for salary arbitration in any year that the player can file, extending UFA eligibility to age 28 or 8 seasons, limiting contracts to 5 years, and permitting only 5% year to year variability in player contracts. Individually each is bad for players; taken together they would significantly reduce a player's bargaining power and give the owner much more leverage over a player for most if not all of his career.
In short, the concessions on future salary we have offered (at least $948 Million to $1.25 Billion over five years, depending on HRR growth) are not enough. We are still being told that more salaries must be conceded, and that very valuable player contracting rights must be surrendered. So, while we are meeting again, and while some steps are being taken, there is still a lot of work to be done and bridges to be crossed before an agreement can be made.
We will review today's discussions over night and tomorrow morning before meeting again with the owners. Following our meeting tomorrow with the league, we will be able to provide a broader update.
As always, please contact us if you have any questions or comments.
Best regards.
Don
On Wednesday night, the NHLPA tabled new offers regarding revenue sharing and the league's "make whole" provision, with the union suggesting a system where the players' share in revenue reaches 50-50 in the third year of the deal.
The NHL and the NHLPA gathered for a fourth straight day of collective bargaining talks on Friday -- the longest run of meetings they've had during these negotiations.



After reading it my optimism remains non-existent.

The fact they are talking doesn't really mean much. After all, that is what they are paid to do. The NHL is facing another round of canceled games coming up and the NHLPA has to reassure membership that there is still a chance for a season. Another player payday will be missed. As another week melts away my level of interest ebbs. I can wait until next year until they sort it out.

I have been accused of being in the owners pocket and will admit leaning to the ownership's perspective. That said I can agree they should have got it right in 2004 but didn't. Since neither of these two are particularly interested in the fans but very interested in the $s involved I suggest they do not play hockey again until they have a formula that works.
  • 0

#2473 DeNiro

DeNiro

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,026 posts
  • Joined: 22-April 08

Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:49 PM

Don't expect a deal to be reached anytime soon, if at all. All these meetings are doing is giving fans a false sense of hope.

The reality is both sides are still not willing to budge any further on the main issues. So eventually they'll reach a stalemate just like before.

These meetings are nothing more than a ploy to keep the NHL in the news.
  • 0

Posted Image


"Dream until the dream come true"


#2474 Shift-4

Shift-4

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,452 posts
  • Joined: 11-August 06

Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:57 PM

The reality is both sides are still not willing to budge any further on the main issues.


This is the way I see it too. It is like they are getting together to discuss what they don't agree on :rolleyes:
  • 1
Hockey is the only sport, the rest are just games.

#2475 goalie13

goalie13

    Osgoodian One

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,098 posts
  • Joined: 30-April 07

Posted 09 November 2012 - 04:08 PM

This is the way I see it too. It is like they are getting together to discuss what they don't agree on :rolleyes:


Another theory though...

I heard on the radio a couple of days ago that Fehr once got screwed in baseball negotiations by his players leaking information. The way I understand it, some of the players were getting excited about what MLB was offering. MLB got word of this and used that information to tighten their offer for the players.

The likelihood of a secret getting out is the square of how many people know it. Fehr is very careful about what he lets get out there. I am sure that what we see in the media has little to do with what is actually happening in the room.
  • 0
Posted Image

#2476 Shift-4

Shift-4

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,452 posts
  • Joined: 11-August 06

Posted 09 November 2012 - 04:14 PM

Another theory though...

I heard on the radio a couple of days ago that Fehr once got screwed in baseball negotiations by his players leaking information. The way I understand it, some of the players were getting excited about what MLB was offering. MLB got word of this and used that information to tighten their offer for the players.

The likelihood of a secret getting out is the square of how many people know it. Fehr is very careful about what he lets get out there. I am sure that what we see in the media has little to do with what is actually happening in the room.


But what if that memo wasn't supposed to get to the media?

I was surprised it was released after all the 'secret meeting places' and 'hush-hush' tone going on.
  • 1
Hockey is the only sport, the rest are just games.

#2477 goalie13

goalie13

    Osgoodian One

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,098 posts
  • Joined: 30-April 07

Posted 09 November 2012 - 04:31 PM

But what if that memo wasn't supposed to get to the media?

I was surprised it was released after all the 'secret meeting places' and 'hush-hush' tone going on.


I don't think it was supposed to. But at the same time I think Fehr knows that if you send something to nearly 1,000 people, it's bound to get out there. So my theory is that there is nothing in that memo that Fehr wasn't willing to let the media and the NHL see.
  • 0
Posted Image

#2478 WHL rocks

WHL rocks

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,615 posts
  • Joined: 09-May 10

Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:01 PM

Very interesting article.
http://www.startribu.../178216921.html

Talks between the NHL and NHL Players' Association broke up very quickly this afternoon after a fourth consecutive day of meeting.
The league is waiting for the NHLPA to have a conference call with its executive board and negotiating committee before letting them know when they'll reconvene.
But talks did not end well today, I am told.
The NHL was perplexed by a memo that NHLPA Executive Director Don Fehr sent his 725 constituents on Thursday night that stated there’s a “significant gap” between the two sides, according to multiple NHL sources close to the negotiations.

The league feels the memo isn't a fair portrayal of what the owners offered.

The memo was obtained by NBC Sports’ Pro Hockey Talk and TSN, and has since been authenticated by the Star Tribune. It can be read below or at the above hyperlinks.

The league has been under the impression that the majority of players are ready to get back onto the ice if revenues are split 50/50 and all contracts are honored in full. Several players have told the Star Tribune that in recent days.

That’s exactly what the owners have offered the players, the sources say, something Fehr did not spell out in his memo. I have an email into the NHLPA asking if I can talk with Fehr or confirm what I'm about to report below.

The league has promised to honor all existing contracts and guarantee players their $1.883 billion share – or 57 percent of last year’s revenue, the sources say.

In exchange for going to 50/50 immediately, players would have the reduced part of their salaries (12.3 percent) deferred one or two years, “and the owners will pay them back, plus interest, and it would not go against their share and the league is guaranteeing it no matter where the revenue of the league goes,” said one of the sources.

In Year 1, players’ salaries would be reduced about $150 million. The players who have their salaries reduced would get every cent back in a lump payment in Year 2, the source says, plus interest. In Year 2, the players’ salaries would be reduced $61 million. Those players would get that money back plus interest in a lump payment in Year 3, the source says.

By Year 3, they'd be "equal" as long as revenues go up by 5 percent.

The league also feels "we're there" on revenue sharing, with a source saying that the league is basically willing to go with the NHLPA’s proposal other than a couple issues that need to be talked about.

The sources also say it’s untrue that the NHLPA must agree to all the league contract demands. That is negotiable, with the one area the league feels must be stopped are the back-diving contracts.

Theoretically though, this should be a somewhat simple bridge to gap because a player would still get his money; he just would no longer get contracts like, "$9 million, $9 million, $9 million, $8 million, .... $1 million," an intent to artifically lower the salary-cap hit.

Year by year salaries would be spread out with slight variances if the NHL gets its wish.

I'm told one of the NHLPA's demands that the league is not willing to do is pay 100% of the salaries this season no matter how many games are played. If there's a shortended season, the league will want to prorate that, not pay players in full.

But it's clear the league is getting very concerned that the players have not been told the nuts and bolts of their 50/50 proposal. And from the players I've talked to, they feel 50/50 plus honoring all contracts is fair once the other contractual issues are negotiated as well.

We are at a critical juncture even though many want to point out games started Jan. 20 in 1994-95 and the season wasn't canceled in 2005 until Feb. 16.

This is (was actually) a $3.3 billion business. If Fehr is not willing to go to 50/50 at $3.3B, think he will when it's $2.2B, $1.8B? He has spent his entire career fighting the salary cap. There comes a point where revenues become so damaged, it makes it awfully difficult to proceed with a cap. And if that becomes the end game, we're in for a long, long hiatus with no hockey

As for pensions, NHL and NHLPA lawyers met for much of the day on that issue, but the league was left waiting for the Fehr Bros. and a handful of players until 4 p.m. ET after originally expecting to meet at 10 a.m.

Here is Fehr’s memo to his players Thursday night:

Today, we met with the NHL off and on over several hours. A number of matters were discussed, including our proposal for a new pension plan, revenue sharing, the players’ share and salary cap issues, and the owners’ “make whole” concept. Present today were Chris Campoli, Mathieu Darche, Ron Hainsey, Johan Hedberg, Manny Malhotra, and Kevin Westgarth (David Backes was present for part of the day), as well as Mathieu Schneider, Joe Reekie, Steve Webb and Rob Zamuner.
No new proposals were exchanged on pension issues, but we will discuss this issue again tomorrow (Friday). We did receive a proposal on revenue sharing in response to the proposal we made this week, but this subject still needs considerable work.
In addition, we received a revamped proposal covering players’ share and cap issues, their so-called “make whole”, and player contracting issues. The owners finally did formally give us their “make whole” idea, which in dollar terms is similar to the discussions Bill Daly had with Steve Fehr a few days ago. While a step forward, a significant gap remains. Moreover, at the same time we were told that the owners want an “immediate reset” to 50/50 (which would significantly reduce the salary cap) and that their proposals to restrict crucial individual contracting rights must be agreed to. As you know, these include – among other things – losing a year of salary arbitration eligibility, allowing the team to file for salary arbitration in any year that the player can file, extending UFA eligibility to age 28 or 8 seasons, limiting contracts to 5 years, and permitting only 5% year to year variability in player contracts. Individually each is bad for players; taken together they would significantly reduce a player’s bargaining power and give the owner much more leverage over a player for most if not all of his career.
In short, the concessions on future salary we have offered (at least $948 Million to $1.25 Billion over five years, depending on HRR growth) are not enough. We are still being told that more salaries must be conceded, and that very valuable player contracting rights must be surrendered. So, while we are meeting again, and while some steps are being taken, there is still a lot of work to be done and bridges to be crossed before an agreement can be made.
We will review today’s discussions over night and tomorrow morning before meeting again with the owners. Following our meeting tomorrow with the league, we will be able to provide a broader update.
As always, please contact us if you have any questions or comments.
Best regards.
Don

Edited by WHL rocks, 09 November 2012 - 05:01 PM.

  • 0

#2479 -Vintage Canuck-

-Vintage Canuck-

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 70,471 posts
  • Joined: 24-May 10

Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:25 PM

@RenLavoieRDS
The NHL is putting 211 million in the make whole. Will be interesting to see how the NHLPA will react.
  • 0

307mg00.jpg


#2480 Ossi Vaananen

Ossi Vaananen

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,876 posts
  • Joined: 25-April 12

Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:29 PM

So the PA asked for 250 mil, which is what they expect the loss in contracts to be, and the NHL is offering 211 mil? Is this difference seriously what's holing the deal up? This has to be a joke, 39 mil between 30 owners is nothing, they lose more than that for every game that's cancelled.
  • 0

2d7ye0p.jpg

 

Credit to -Vintage Canuck-


#2481 playboi19

playboi19

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,412 posts
  • Joined: 15-August 08

Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:38 PM

Make the Boston Owner come up with the rest for employing a team full of assholes.

Rat Bastard.
  • 3

Subbancopy.jpg


#2482 Canucks_fo_life

Canucks_fo_life

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,583 posts
  • Joined: 07-September 06

Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:41 PM

Theyre that close to a deal, cant believe theyre gonna fight and claw to get every little thing they can out of the deal, my prediction in September was a mid November start, gonna push that back to last week of November now
  • 0
I rather lose with the Canucks, than win with any other team

This is OUR year

GO CANUCKS GOOOOOO!!!!!!!

#2483 stexx

stexx

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,238 posts
  • Joined: 19-April 08

Posted 09 November 2012 - 06:12 PM

@RenLavoieRDS
The NHL is putting 211 million in the make whole. Will be interesting to see how the NHLPA will react.

i think the nhlpa wanted 250mil in the revenue sharing? i dont think they ever gave a number of $ they wanted for the makewhole besides 100%.
  • 0

#2484 Canucks_4_Cup

Canucks_4_Cup

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 673 posts
  • Joined: 24-September 05

Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:05 PM

So the PA asked for 250 mil, which is what they expect the loss in contracts to be, and the NHL is offering 211 mil? Is this difference seriously what's holing the deal up? This has to be a joke, 39 mil between 30 owners is nothing, they lose more than that for every game that's cancelled.


It's not as simple as that. Read this part of the article two posts above yours:

Moreover, at the same time we were told that the owners want an “immediate reset” to 50/50 (which would significantly reduce the salary cap) and that their proposals to restrict crucial individual contracting rights must be agreed to. As you know, these include – among other things – losing a year of salary arbitration eligibility, allowing the team to file for salary arbitration in any year that the player can file, extending UFA eligibility to age 28 or 8 seasons, limiting contracts to 5 years, and permitting only 5% year to year variability in player contracts. Individually each is bad for players; taken together they would significantly reduce a player’s bargaining power and give the owner much more leverage over a player for most if not all of his career.


  • 0

#2485 Ossi Vaananen

Ossi Vaananen

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,876 posts
  • Joined: 25-April 12

Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:19 PM

It's not as simple as that. Read this part of the article two posts above yours:


I'm well aware of the discrepancy between the PA and the NHL as to how to get to 50%. I read the article before posting, and have been kept informed about the entire process. The section you quoted talks extensively about contractual freedoms, something in which I think should be preserved for the players. Now how exactly does this relate to the 211m towards the make-whole provision?

With the make whole provision, the CBA could reduce to 50% immediately, while honouring previously signed contracts with the 211m put aside (from the owner's side). Perhaps you should reread the article, as both sides have stated endlessly that division of HHR and honouring signed contracts are the biggest obstacles towards a deal being broken.
  • 0

2d7ye0p.jpg

 

Credit to -Vintage Canuck-


#2486 WHL rocks

WHL rocks

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,615 posts
  • Joined: 09-May 10

Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:29 PM

LP
  • 0

#2487 -Vintage Canuck-

-Vintage Canuck-

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 70,471 posts
  • Joined: 24-May 10

Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:33 PM

Flyers owner Ed Snider 'awfully disappointed' with NHL labour situation:

On the 55th day of the NHL lockout, Philadelphia Flyers owner Ed Snider finally had a good reason to hit the rink.


Snider attended the grand opening of the fourth refurbished city rink as part of his youth hockey foundation, which provides free skating programs, ice hockey instruction, equipment and academic services to inner-city children.


The neglected, open-air rinks have been transformed as part of a $13 million US restoration project into reconstructed, closed rinks worthy of an NHL practice facility.


Snider, the Flyers' founder and chairman, has often said he wants the project to become his true legacy. The foundation's services are targeted for inner-city boys and girls who otherwise would not have the opportunity to learn to skate or to play ice hockey. The program has rapidly grown to include over 3,000 students.


"When I see what we've accomplished with these four magnificent, beautiful rinks, I have a great deal of pride seeing this happen," Snider said Friday night. "It's become a very big part of my life."


'I'm awfully disappointed that we're not playing hockey, but there's not a thing I can do about it except just keep my fingers crossed and hope somehow it can come together.'—Flyers owner Ed Snider


But nothing is as big as running the Flyers. The Flyers, who won the Stanley Cup in 1974 and 1975, would have been off Friday night with a date against Carolina on Saturday at the Wells Fargo Center. Instead, the 55-day lockout has forced the cancellation of 327 regular-season games, including the New Year's Day Winter Classic in Michigan, and ensured that a full season won't be played.


"I'm awfully disappointed that we're not playing hockey, but there's not a thing I can do about it except just keep my fingers crossed and hope somehow it can come together," Snider said.


He declined to otherwise discuss the labour strife.


Mayor Michael Nutter joined Snider and hundreds of kids at the dedication of the Tarken Ice Rink in northeast Philadelphia. Snider founded his organization in 2005 and jumped into action when budget cuts were set to close three city ice rinks unless private funding could be found. Snider contributed $6.5 million to match a grant from the Commonwealth's Redevelopment Assistance Capital Program. Early last year, Snider Hockey reached a 20-year agreement with the city and the Philadelphia Industrial Development Corporation to extend its partnership through 2030.


The rinks include classrooms and learning labs that provide year-round afterschool programming. Snider would like to expand the program into areas outside of Philadelphia like Chester and Allentown.


"I think through the years, you're going to see it become a much bigger program. Our goal is 10,000 kids," Snider said. "This is nothing to do with my profession. This has to do with my desire to help inner-city kids. I get such satisfaction when I get letters from kids and their parents and how much they've accomplished. I can't think of any other way that I could be more satisfied, except maybe another Cup."


It's hard to say if the Flyers, or any other team, will get a chance this season to play for the Stanley Cup.


"I sure hope so," Snider said.


Nutter said the city needs the Flyers to start playing again.


"Of course they do, they provide jobs and economic vitality," he said.


http://www.cbc.ca/sp...hl-lockout.html
  • 0

307mg00.jpg


#2488 Remy

Remy

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,171 posts
  • Joined: 17-December 08

Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:32 PM

LP
  • 0

#2489 -Vintage Canuck-

-Vintage Canuck-

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 70,471 posts
  • Joined: 24-May 10

Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:40 PM

A great article on today's CBA talks from Michael Grange:

New York -- Remember when the negotiations between the NHL and the players association were being held in a secret place?


Remember when there was little discussion or leaks or even speculation about what the substance of the talks covered?


If you're a hockey fan, remember those days earlier this week - otherwise known as Tuesday and Wednesday, with a faint hint of Thursday - fondly.


Because Friday blew them all to hell. Let's just hope that the prospect of an NHL season - or at least a meaningful one that starts before Christmas didn't go down in flames with it.


It's hard to summarize where the spin starts and ends, but simply put: nearly five months since negotiations on a new CBA began and entering Day 56 of the lockout there is no trust, there is very little common ground and rather than two sides inching ever closer together, they seem to be digging in.


There were multiple items on the agenda of three separate meetings at the NHL' s law offices near Times Square, but the only one that mattered was the final session involving how to split league revenues and what the future of the contracts rights between the players and the owners might be.


For just a sample of how things are going, consider NHLPA executive Don Fehr's explanation of how one line of discussion went:


"At one point the question was asked [of the owners]: If the players were to agree - which they're not prepared to do - to everything in your financial proposal, what you're saying is you still won't make an agreement unless we give up everything in all the player contracting rights in your proposal. The answer was yes, that's what we want.


"Now that's not a direct quote, but one wonders if that's the case how you get there from here."


Great question.


That meeting broke up at about 6:00 p.m. and a flustered seeming NHLPA executive director made no comment other than he had "some things to consider" before rushing off to a scheduled conference call with his negotiation committee and team player reps, a group of about 60.


NHL commissioner Gary Bettman soon emerged and also had little say, other than they were prepared to meet through the weekend and he would even refrain from attending the Hockey Hall of Fame induction ceremonies in Toronto on Monday if CBA talks required it. "Whatever it takes," he said.


The commissioner may have looked calm but he belied the furious paddling going on underneath the surface.


First came a report from the Minnesota Tribune's Michael Russo that the owners were angry that the substance of their offer to the players on Thursday hadn't been properly communicated to the players in a memo from Fehr that surfaced Friday morning.


In it Fehr emphasized the owner’s determination to immediately reset players' share of HRR to 50-50 in the first year of a deal but offered no detail on the owners so-called 'make whole provision'.


Details later emerged the owners did want the players to take a 50 per cent share of HRR immediately (down from their 57 per cent share last year) but were willing to guarantee $211 million in deferred money that would be paid out in years two and years three, with interest.


Meanwhile reports - inaccurate it turns out - began circulating that the players were seeking a deal that started at what their share was last year ($1.883-billion) and increased in guaranteed increments of five per cent annually.


Not surprisingly Don Fehr was eager to address this. If there was one issue that struck closer to the bone than the rest it was the implication that he's been less than transparent with his members.


"First of all, understand [the players'] proposal is made in front of players, in the room, here," Fehr said. "It's made in front of staff, it's made in front of former players who hear it. They're on the phone, talking about it … owners can't come to the meetings and hear for themselves, but every single player can at the union's expense.


"It is accurate to say if you write a memo and it's a quick one, you necessarily have to summarize," he said. "But everything we do in terms of communications ends with 'if you have a question, contact us.' We let them know if they want to come to a meeting contact us and they will have a plane ticket and a hotel room."


As for the substance of the owners' 'make whole' proposal, Fehr wasn't all that enthused either: "If the notion is they're honouring all the contracts and everyone is getting paid what they're supposed to be paid according to the letter of the contracts that's not true and never has been," he said. "I don't know where that notion came from."


And finally he clarified the players' proposal, acknowledging that the players do want to use the $1.883-billion they earned in aggregate last year as a starting point, but that the increases through the life of the agreement would be 1.75 per cent of HRR.


Those that have been following the lockout closely would recognize the problem there however: the owners only want to play the players about $1.65 billion next year.


How to bridge the gap between the roughly $1.91 billion the players want to be paid next year and what the owners are willing to pay them remains a massive issue in a labour negotiation that is going nowhere at the moment.


And here's another bit of sunshine for you: in the midst of the back-and-forth Friday emerged another new front in a battle in which both sides are bleeding, the only question being how badly.


The players have indicated that they expect to be paid their full share for the 2012-13 season, regardless of how many games are played. The owners, in other words, should pay every cent of the costs incurred by the lockout.


If you don't think things have gotten contentious yet, wait till they start trying to hash that one out.


http://www.sportsnet...st_no_progress/
  • 0

307mg00.jpg


#2490 Smashian Kassian

Smashian Kassian

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,217 posts
  • Joined: 10-June 10

Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:52 PM

I'm well aware of the discrepancy between the PA and the NHL as to how to get to 50%. I read the article before posting, and have been kept informed about the entire process. The section you quoted talks extensively about contractual freedoms, something in which I think should be preserved for the players. Now how exactly does this relate to the 211m towards the make-whole provision?

With the make whole provision, the CBA could reduce to 50% immediately, while honouring previously signed contracts with the 211m put aside (from the owner's side). Perhaps you should reread the article, as both sides have stated endlessly that division of HHR and honouring signed contracts are the biggest obstacles towards a deal being broken.


No Canucks_4_Cup's point in replying was that there was more than just what you said about the make whole provision that separates them.

So he just used that article to show some of the other issue's the two sides are stuck on.
  • 0

zackass.png





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Canucks.com is the official Web site of The Vancouver Canucks. The Vancouver Canucks and Canucks.com are trademarks of The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership.  NHL and the word mark and image of the Stanley Cup are registered trademarks and the NHL Shield and NHL Conference logos are trademarks of the National Hockey League. All NHL logos and marks and NHL team logos and marks as well as all other proprietary materials depicted herein are the property of the NHL and the respective NHL teams and may not be reproduced without the prior written consent of NHL Enterprises, L.P.  Copyright © 2009 The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership and the National Hockey League.  All Rights Reserved.