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Ontario teachers going on Strike November 25 because of Bill 115


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#31 Dazzle

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:29 PM

So students are misguided whether they side with the teachers or the government? Again, given that they have no recourse that won't impact kids, I wonder why you would be so surprised when the actions they take impact kids. Even if it is things, like said above they don't even get paid to do.


Students should really be allowed to be at the bargaining table - that is my opinion. Both sides have their vested interests to claim that they support students. I feel it is 100 percent pandering.

It is money or future precedent that is more important than what students learn.

Edited by Dazzle, 17 November 2012 - 06:29 PM.

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#32 inane

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:31 PM

Students should really be allowed to be at the bargaining table - that is my opinion. Both sides have their vested interests to claim that they support students. I feel it is 100 percent pandering.

It is money or future precedent that is more important than what students learn.


You want elementary students at a bargaining table? To what end?

Of course both sides are pandering, does that even need to be said?
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#33 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:39 PM

You want elementary students at a bargaining table? To what end?

Of course both sides are pandering, does that even need to be said?

Voicing their opinion, what else?
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#34 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:42 PM

What proof do you have that teachers actually support students? There is no slander in this thread. Go read up what it actually means.

Having a negative opinion of Government/union members isn't slander. Saying that Stephen Harper is a war profiteer IS slander though.

Can you see the difference?

You do realize that the thread is regarding Ontario teachers right? I wasn't talking about BCTF.

Why is it a bad thing to hold a negative opinion of both Government AND union members? People bash Conservatives/Liberals/NDPers all the time and according to you, they would all be slandering.


You said teachers that care about students are few and far between. I take great offense to this statement. You didn't say Ontario teachers. I know your MO around here and I don't like it or you. Slander was an apt description.
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#35 inane

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:43 PM

Voicing their opinion, what else?


What does a grade 2 student know about any of this? Why would you even want to expose them to it..
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#36 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:47 PM

What does a grade 2 student know about any of this? Why would you even want to expose them to it..

Well, firstly, a grade 2 student isn't so dumb as to not have an opinion, especially about something that this greatly affects themselves.

Secondly, in court relating to custody matters, children's opinions are heard there as well and do have an impact.. for a reason.

Children are not these dumb naive creatures that need to be coddled and ignored because they have no idea what they might need. They are indeed quite smart and able to voice their opinion about matters which should have some clout.

Edited by zaibatsu, 17 November 2012 - 06:50 PM.

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#37 Common sense

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:49 PM

What does a grade 2 student know about any of this? Why would you even want to expose them to it..


Because when both sides are spouting rhetoric about how students are supposed to be at the forefront, and yet they're not at the discussions, how exactly is that working in the students' best interests?

This isn't like the NHL, where we're buying into the NHL/PA system...this is a mandatory system that a very large majority of 5-17 y.o kids go through.
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#38 Dazzle

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:55 PM

You said teachers that care about students are few and far between. I take great offense to this statement. You didn't say Ontario teachers. I know your MO around here and I don't like it or you. Slander was an apt description.


That's not slander at all.

Knowing someone's MO or thinking you know someone's MO does not mean your "assessment" of me is valid.

Percentage wise, teachers that care ARE the minority, not the majority. This is no different than any other profession. There's always the GOOD ones. The AVERAGE ones and the bad ones. Good cops, average cops, bad cops. Good customer service, average customer service, bad customer service. It's always a similar type of percentage. It's human nature.

Why do you assume that ALL teachers all care about students? I know why, it's in your MO apparently. (See what I did there?)

Anyway to get back to discussion, students should be at the bargaining table, and they should be represented.

If kids want a new playground, for example, they NEED to have their voices heard and therefore need to be at the bargaining table. Otherwise, their interests are just going to be squashed.

If kids are old enough to be involved in protests, they SHOULD be allowed to be at the bargaining table so they can see what both sides talk about behind closed doors.

Edited by Dazzle, 17 November 2012 - 06:57 PM.

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#39 Dazzle

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:01 PM

What does a grade 2 student know about any of this? Why would you even want to expose them to it..


Because those students could be preconditioned to support a side without actually knowing what is at stake. Having an opinion is not something that has a legal age requirement. But opinions need to be fully informed, and thus should be at the bargaining table.

Students of all ages can review what is at the table and offer their perspectives, instead of being vulnerable to the pandering of both sides.

Edited by Dazzle, 17 November 2012 - 07:02 PM.

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#40 inane

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:08 PM

Kids are 'vulnerable to pandering' all the time, everywhere. That's what parents and teachers are for--teaching kids to learn, think for themselves and be productive people.

Opinions need to be fully informed---good luck fully informing a 6 year old of all the intricacies and details in the collective bargaining process.

But sure guys, good luck with that. I would not want my child exposed to this, weird that you would.
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#41 Dazzle

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:08 PM

Well, firstly, a grade 2 student isn't so dumb as to not have an opinion, especially about something that this greatly affects themselves.

Secondly, in court relating to custody matters, children's opinions are heard there as well and do have an impact.. for a reason.

Children are not these dumb naive creatures that need to be coddled and ignored because they have no idea what they might need. They are indeed quite smart and able to voice their opinion about matters which should have some clout.

Because when both sides are spouting rhetoric about how students are supposed to be at the forefront, and yet they're not at the discussions, how exactly is that working in the students' best interests?

This isn't like the NHL, where we're buying into the NHL/PA system...this is a mandatory system that a very large majority of 5-17 y.o kids go through.


Yes. Both of these posts are written much better than what I could have expressed.

Besides, children/young adults being at the bargaining table will further enhance their education. They can see what society really is like.
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#42 Dazzle

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:14 PM

Kids are 'vulnerable to pandering' all the time, everywhere. That's what parents and teachers are for--teaching kids to learn, think for themselves and be productive people.

Opinions need to be fully informed---good luck fully informing a 6 year old of all the intricacies and details in the collective bargaining process.

But sure guys, good luck with that. I would not want my child exposed to this, weird that you would.


Teachers that simultaneously teach kids how to form an opinion while also representing themselves at the bargaining table is a blatant conflict of interest.

Now that you've mentioned it, maybe parents should be at the bargaining table too. Their opinions must have some merit, yes?

I still think the young adults need to be allowed to discuss it. Perhaps they can nominate a candidate who can speak on behalf of the 6 year old?

Edited by Dazzle, 17 November 2012 - 07:15 PM.

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#43 inane

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:26 PM

Teachers that simultaneously teach kids how to form an opinion while also representing themselves at the bargaining table is a blatant conflict of interest.

Now that you've mentioned it, maybe parents should be at the bargaining table too. Their opinions must have some merit, yes?

I still think the young adults need to be allowed to discuss it. Perhaps they can nominate a candidate who can speak on behalf of the 6 year old?


Teachers aren't teaching about their own union issues in the classroom. You're not one of these conspiracy 'teachers are brainwashing kids into leftist yadda yadda' people are you? Teachers have no time to do that lol, they're too busy dealing with the 800 other things they have to do...
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#44 Dazzle

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:31 PM

Teachers aren't teaching about their own union issues in the classroom. You're not one of these conspiracy 'teachers are brainwashing kids into leftist yadda yadda' people are you? Teachers have no time to do that lol, they're too busy dealing with the 800 other things they have to do...


Stuff like this is what makes me concerned.

http://news.national...hing-materials/

B.C. teachers’ union defends anti-pipeline teaching materials


Kathryn Blaze Carlson | Oct 3, 2012 7:27 PM ET
More from Kathryn Blaze Carlson | @KBlazeCarlson



Calling itself a “social justice union,” the B.C. Teachers’ Federation defended its promotion of anti-pipeline teaching resources on Wednesday, fueling a national debate about whether teachers should tout their own views in the classroom.
The poster features wildlife — a soaring eagle, a bear, seals and killer whales — enjoying a pristine ocean scene, but the bottom-right corner shows a wide-eyed fish lying dead amid black oily sludge along with the faint image of a skull and crossbones. The headline for the poster, published on the federation’s website as part of its “social justice” resources for teachers, is this: “What we stand to lose with pipelines and oil tankers.”
As the controversy percolated on Twitter, Canada’s Natural Resources minister, Joe Oliver, told reporters Wednesday he is concerned that B.C. youth are being subjected to just one side of a critical public issue.
“My understanding is [the education resource is] somewhat unbalanced and I think that’s regrettable,” he said.
Vancouver School Board trustee Ken Denicke likened the poster, which comes amid debate over the Northern Gateway Pipeline, to propaganda; he called it “very much one-sided” and deemed it “totally inappropriate to present to young kids.”
RelatedThe teachers’ union sought to clarify the poster is not part of a lesson plan — as was initially reported and discussed on Twitter — but the teachers’ federation’s website appears murkier on that question: The site has a page dedicated to “‘What We Stand to Lose’ poster resources,’” and among them is a downloadable document containing links to a dozen lesson plans that teachers can choose to use in their classrooms. That document, called “‘What We Stand to Lose’ Poster Lesson Plans,’” lists plans that hinge on the importance of protecting ocean ecosystems, the impacts of a pipeline, information about the 2010 Gulf Coast oil spill and an exercise described as a “short lesson” that “illustrates the effects of mixing oil, water and bird feathers.”
“We have to start thinking about the environment, and that means that you have to start thinking about the consequences,” federation president Susan Lambert said Wednesday, adding that the resources are optional, promote critical thinking and can be paired with any number of other lesson plans at a teacher’s behest.
“There’s a probability of an oil spill if you increase tanker traffic. That’s a question that these students, and very shortly as adults, will be grappling with. It’s our responsibility in schools to give them the tools they need to grapple with that issue.”
She said the teaching resources include a link to the official Enbridge Northern Gateway Pipeline website, but that link is not listed in the “‘What We Stand to Lose’ Poster Lesson Plans” and is instead found in an entirely separate document called “Quick Facts” — a one-page explainer that highlights Enbridges “60 spills a year” and says “a spill could cause irreversible harm to the livelihoods of many coastal and aboriginal communities and the area’s unique marine ecosystems.”
Jordan Bateman, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation’s B.C. director, took to Twitter to square off against the teachers’ union, accusing it of promoting anti-pipeline materials without similarly promoting pro-pipeline materials.
“A web link isn’t balance,” Mr. Bateman tweeted in response to a union tweet pointing to the Enbridge link.




In a telephone interview, Mr. Bateman said “pipeline education is not a curriculum target” set by the province’s education ministry, and said the federation is “flexing its muscles in individual classrooms, trying to get its point of view across.”
The federation did not craft the actual lessons plans, but the union’s Environmental Justice Action Group — comprised of teachers — determined which plans would be listed as part of its social justice resources. It also decided to promote the poster on its website and on the federation’s Facebook page.
“I ordered one for my classroom and it was delivered in 2 days,” Sue Brown, who according to her Facebook page is a Greater Victoria School District teacher, commented beneath the image of the poster. “The kids like looking at it.”
Annie Kidder, executive director of Ontario’s People for Education, said if teachers portray only one side of a debate in the classroom, they risk leaving students with the impression that a different perspective is erroneous.
“I don’t think it’s wrong for teachers to tell kids what their views are, but the danger comes when those views are presented as fact,” she said.
National Post, with files from Postmedia News


Once again, the recurring theme is that kids/young adults are subject to pandering.

I don't have vested interests in the Enbridge line, but influencing kids to take a particular stance on a social issue is wrong. Kids/young adults are supporting a side for the wrong reasons.

Kids should be allowed both sides of information (not just TV ads or fear-mongering)

Edited by Dazzle, 17 November 2012 - 07:33 PM.

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#45 inane

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:44 PM

Stuff like this is what makes me concerned.

http://news.national...hing-materials/



Once again, the recurring theme is that kids/young adults are subject to pandering.

I don't have vested interests in the Enbridge line, but influencing kids to take a particular stance on a social issue is wrong. Kids/young adults are supporting a side for the wrong reasons.

Kids should be allowed both sides of information (not just TV ads or fear-mongering)


Like I said, kids (and everyone else) are subject to pandering everywhere. Having a teacher teach about enbridge is not the same as advocating for the teacher union in the classroom, that doesn't happen. If that happens, that's bad.
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#46 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:47 PM

Percentage wise, teachers that care ARE the minority, not the majority. This is no different than any other profession. There's always the GOOD ones. The AVERAGE ones and the bad ones. Good cops, average cops, bad cops. Good customer service, average customer service, bad customer service. It's always a similar type of percentage. It's human nature.

Why do you assume that ALL teachers all care about students? I know why, it's in your MO apparently. (See what I did there?)


What's your source? Would you prefer I call them baseless accusations? The fact that extracurricular activities actually exist is tangible proof that they do care. I know many teachers and I know how hard they work. I assure you my knowledge in these matters vastly outweigh anything you have to offer. Your statements are hurtful and offensive and cannot be substantiated. There are bad teachers, but unlike your assumptions, they are most certainly in the minority.

Anti teacher rhetoric is your MO and it became tiresome many threads ago.
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#47 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:51 PM

Stuff like this is what makes me concerned.

http://news.national...hing-materials/



Once again, the recurring theme is that kids/young adults are subject to pandering.

I don't have vested interests in the Enbridge line, but influencing kids to take a particular stance on a social issue is wrong. Kids/young adults are supporting a side for the wrong reasons.

Kids should be allowed both sides of information (not just TV ads or fear-mongering)


I thought you said we were talking about Ontario teachers? My suspicion has been confimed. Same old agenda.
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#48 Heretic

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 08:02 PM

Teachers should be classified as an "Essential Service" and therefore be not legally able to strike.


NHL players should be classified as an "Essential Service" and therefore be not legally able to strike.
NHL owners should be classified as an "Essential Service" and therefore be not legally able to lock out players.


As far as teachers go - I'm married to one and she does care for her students.

My point is, don't generalize and say "teachers don't care for students" because they are going on strike.
Yes, some probably don't care - but some do.


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Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#49 Remy

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 08:09 PM

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I'm sick and tired of how union members claim that they support students. The truth is that teachers that really care are few and far between.

Just like there are good cops, average cops and bad cops.


Teacher here. So, I guess you work with a lot of teachers as well? Otherwise, I'm curious how you formed your opinion on this. Perhaps as a student? How long ago was that, and what kind of student were you. Details make some difference here, not that I'm questioning your perceived expertise.

I know a lot of teachers. And I know a lot of good teachers. They aren't nearly as rare as you make them seem, and for good reason. The benefits of the job have their appeal, sure, but you won't ever get rich on a teacher's salary. The hours involved with planning and marking are almost certainly a lot more than you'd think. Any teacher that participates in extra curriculars still has to find time after school for that part of the job as well.

Of course there are some bad teachers, I won't try to deny that. But I can't think of any other profession that requires so much time, effort, and training but receives so little respect. That said, shouldn't it speak volumes that we have student support? They are the people in the classrooms. And not just that, but we're grading these students - consider for a second how much we can influence their lives, for good or bad. That we have their support means more than anything else.
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#50 Dazzle

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:42 PM

I thought you said we were talking about Ontario teachers? My suspicion has been confimed. Same old agenda.


That news article was far too easy to pass up. It was also relevant considering the controversy. ALL (keyword ALL) teachers can do no bad?

Unfortunately, your relentless biasness has been long observed by me. You have always sided with teachers, which is fine as long as you can recognize that teachers are not one person. They are a collection of many many different people of all backgrounds.

Seems like talking bad about teachers is a no-no for you. It is sad that you feel all teachers all are good people, despite statistics suggest that people of all professions fit under different 'performance' categories.

Your 'pack' mentality is the culprit behind your inability to see the difference of right from wrong. This thread shall shine your true colours.
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#51 Dazzle

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:54 PM

What's your source? Would you prefer I call them baseless accusations? The fact that extracurricular activities actually exist is tangible proof that they do care. I know many teachers and I know how hard they work. I assure you my knowledge in these matters vastly outweigh anything you have to offer. Your statements are hurtful and offensive and cannot be substantiated. There are bad teachers, but unlike your assumptions, they are most certainly in the minority.

Anti teacher rhetoric is your MO and it became tiresome many threads ago.


Unless you have canvassed all over the world to see all (that is, every single teacher in existence in action - which I openly admit I haven't done - even you can't make the assumption that bad teachers are in the minority. It works both ways. If I'm wrong, you're just as wrong to make your statement.

Honestly, I don't know why you're taking this so personal. I am not directing comments regarding your performance as a teacher. I am well-aware that not all teachers are painted with the same brush. It is absurd that you think all teachers are do-gooders

Let's get things straightened out: I didn't say that all teachers are BAD people or bad teachers.

You are seemingly unable to distinguish the difference. It seems that any sniff of negative opinion is considered slander to you. There is a difference between the intent to cause damage to one's reputation and holding an opinion that is unflattering of teachers in general.

I don't have anything against teachers per se on strikes, but I do have a problem when a side tries to pander to an audience, much like the Government/teachers have both tried to do on TV ads.

I still believe that kids/young adults deserve to be part of the discussion. Maybe I'll try to put in a private member's bill.
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#52 Dazzle

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 10:06 PM

Teacher here. So, I guess you work with a lot of teachers as well? Otherwise, I'm curious how you formed your opinion on this. Perhaps as a student? How long ago was that, and what kind of student were you. Details make some difference here, not that I'm questioning your perceived expertise.

I know a lot of teachers. And I know a lot of good teachers. They aren't nearly as rare as you make them seem, and for good reason. The benefits of the job have their appeal, sure, but you won't ever get rich on a teacher's salary. The hours involved with planning and marking are almost certainly a lot more than you'd think. Any teacher that participates in extra curriculars still has to find time after school for that part of the job as well.

Of course there are some bad teachers, I won't try to deny that. But I can't think of any other profession that requires so much time, effort, and training but receives so little respect. That said, shouldn't it speak volumes that we have student support? They are the people in the classrooms. And not just that, but we're grading these students - consider for a second how much we can influence their lives, for good or bad. That we have their support means more than anything else.


Honestly, your post is a much better avenue for discussion.

No, I don't work with teachers.

I am a student and have been a student all my life, just like anyone else. I have been through numerous strikes - and engaged in a misguided walkout supposedly in support of teachers.

I remember York students being out of classes because of the strike in 07-08 and more than a few of them complained about it.

This thread wasn't meant to be an anti-teacher thread. It was meant to be a thread which bashes how the Government and the union members treat the students that have no voice at the table. Both sides seem to be the "good guy"; both try to pander to students (pander - a word that seems overused now).

In most cases, students join the teachers' side without actually being part of that discussion. They support a side because they "feel bad" about how one side is being treated. The 'victimization' aspect is far easier to comprehend and relate to regarding teachers, considering students see teachers every single day. When do students get representation when they get shafted time after time during this negotiation process?

Some teachers' union groups have demanded its members stop grading student report cards - a part of their job function.

Governments have locked out teachers from buildings. Teachers cannot do their jobs.

Both of these actions, as an example, show that both sides are willing to do what it takes to get their point across. Yet both sides say that they 'support students' or the like. It is hard to come to terms that both sides actually care about students. It's about politics but students do not formally participate in this political arena.

I brought up an article where the author has trouble picking a side because it's not as easy as black and white.

This doesn't have to do with JoeyJoeJoeJr (the poster) in particular or any one teacher in mind. It's nothing personal.

Edited by Dazzle, 17 November 2012 - 10:10 PM.

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#53 Remy

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 11:58 PM

Honestly, your post is a much better avenue for discussion.

No, I don't work with teachers.

I am a student and have been a student all my life, just like anyone else. I have been through numerous strikes - and engaged in a misguided walkout supposedly in support of teachers.

I remember York students being out of classes because of the strike in 07-08 and more than a few of them complained about it.

This thread wasn't meant to be an anti-teacher thread. It was meant to be a thread which bashes how the Government and the union members treat the students that have no voice at the table. Both sides seem to be the "good guy"; both try to pander to students (pander - a word that seems overused now).

In most cases, students join the teachers' side without actually being part of that discussion. They support a side because they "feel bad" about how one side is being treated. The 'victimization' aspect is far easier to comprehend and relate to regarding teachers, considering students see teachers every single day. When do students get representation when they get shafted time after time during this negotiation process?

Some teachers' union groups have demanded its members stop grading student report cards - a part of their job function.

Governments have locked out teachers from buildings. Teachers cannot do their jobs.

Both of these actions, as an example, show that both sides are willing to do what it takes to get their point across. Yet both sides say that they 'support students' or the like. It is hard to come to terms that both sides actually care about students. It's about politics but students do not formally participate in this political arena.

I brought up an article where the author has trouble picking a side because it's not as easy as black and white.

This doesn't have to do with JoeyJoeJoeJr (the poster) in particular or any one teacher in mind. It's nothing personal.


Well, I can tell by the above post that you're not trolling. Whatever your point of view, I do appreciate knowing that it's genuine.

And just to start, I can assure that even though I am now a teacher, I spent far more of my life as a student. I'd like to think that I'm early-on enough in my career that I can still clearly see "the other side". In fact, I became a teacher largely because I felt that students were misrepresented. There is a lot about schools that I would change, but that's probably a separate discussion. Even still, I can see that, by and large, the real problems with schools are not generated by teachers. If that requires clarification, by all means, let me know.

I also think that students are more astute than you give them credit for. I really doubt that it's a matter of the old Florence Nightingale symptom. In fact, just consider what it must take to overcome the natural apathy of most people in supporting a cause, let alone during the teenage years. I believe, from my experiences, that students genuinely care. When I was a student, I certainly had my share of frustration, but I found that, by and large, it was with the system, and not the teachers. I think that sentiment is still echoed by most students. And again, I realize that there are some bad teachers out there - I've had them, and I've worked with them - but I really don't believe that it's the type of profession that lends itself to the selfish or lazy, even if a few examples do exist. I'm sure you could say the same, or worse, of lawyers (wish I had their pay scale!).

As for the report cards, I understand where you're coming from, but there are a few details missing. Primarily, it was established that students in grade 12 would absolutely not be denied their grades, especially as it pertained to transcripts for university. Beyond that, students were still given feedback, just not in grade-form. You can appreciate the lengths to which teachers have gone to "stick it to the man" while still supporting students. And a point about extra-curricular activities that I missed earlier, many teachers made sure that those same extra-curriculars were supported by community members. In other words, the activities themselves were not removed whole scale, but transferred to non-teachers. And even though it's non-contractual, and therefore not in direct disagreement with the government, it's purpose was primarily to raise awareness.

It's hard, of course, for me to see this as anything but black and white. The government has many areas of concern, schools are not first and foremost in their minds. They have to consider re-elections, taxes, and any number of other societal concerns. But for teachers, schools are everything. When you look at which side has the more vested interest in student well-being, it's teachers, hands down.

I'm going to add this personal note to it, which may easily be dismissed as anecdotal, but it's something I find important nonetheless. My career is teaching. It will be my legacy, for better or worse. The time for me to be a space-pirate-ninja-astronaut has passed. Whatever meaning I derive in my life, through my career, comes from being the best possible teacher that I can be. And that has very little to do with English grammar (English teacher here) or Shakespeare. It is 90% about the relationships I build with students. Believe me when I say that I take that seriously. Benefits and pay aside, if you want any satisfaction in your career as a teacher, students absolutely DO come first.

Edited by Remy, 18 November 2012 - 12:03 AM.

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#54 Dazzle

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:22 AM

Well, I can tell by the above post that you're not trolling. Whatever your point of view, I do appreciate knowing that it's genuine.

And just to start, I can assure that even though I am now a teacher, I spent far more of my life as a student. I'd like to think that I'm early-on enough in my career that I can still clearly see "the other side". In fact, I became a teacher largely because I felt that students were misrepresented. There is a lot about schools that I would change, but that's probably a separate discussion. Even still, I can see that, by and large, the real problems with schools are not generated by teachers. If that requires clarification, by all means, let me know.

I also think that students are more astute than you give them credit for. I really doubt that it's a matter of the old Florence Nightingale symptom. In fact, just consider what it must take to overcome the natural apathy of most people in supporting a cause, let alone during the teenage years. I believe, from my experiences, that students genuinely care. When I was a student, I certainly had my share of frustration, but I found that, by and large, it was with the system, and not the teachers. I think that sentiment is still echoed my most students. And again, I realize that there are some bad teachers out there - I've had them, and I've worked with them - but I really don't believe that it's the type of profession that lends itself to the selfish or lazy, even if a few examples do exist. I'm sure you could say the same, or worse, of lawyers (wish I had their pay scale!).

As for the report cards, I understand where you're coming from, but there are a few details missing. Primarily, it was established that students in grade 12 would absolutely not be denied their grades, especially as it pertained to transcripts for university. Beyond that, students were still given feedback, just not in grade-form. You can appreciate the lengths to which teachers have gone to "stick it to the man" while still supporting students. And a point about extra-curricular activities that I missed earlier, many teachers made sure that those same extra-curriculars were supported by community members. In other words, the activities themselves were removed whole scale, but transferred to non-teachers. And even though it's non-contractual, and therefore not in direct disagreement with the government, it's purpose was primarily to raise awareness.

It's hard, of course, for me to see this as anything but black and white. The government has many areas of concern, schools are not first and foremost in their minds. They have to consider re-elections, taxes, and any number of other societal concerns. But for teachers, schools are everything. When you look at which side has the more vested interest in student well-being, it's teachers, hands down.

I'm going to add this personal note to it, which may easily be dismissed as anecdotal, but it's something I find important nonetheless. My career is teaching. It will be my legacy, for better or worse. The time for me to be a space-pirate-ninja-astronaut has passed. Whatever meaning I derive in my life, through my career, comes from being the best possible teacher that I can be. And that has very little to do with English grammar (English teacher here) or Shakespeare. It is 90% about the relationships I build with students. Believe me when I say that I take that seriously. Benefits and pay aside, if you want any satisfaction in your career as a teacher, students absolutely DO come first.


This was a great, great post. I sure learned a lot from it. Thank you for understanding where I was coming from - flawed or not - and thank you for being genuine. It is obvious that you wrote this with your heart and it is very personal. I deeply appreciate this.

And yes, I am absolutely not trolling. When I made this thread, I felt like something went off in my head when I saw that picket sign in that picture.

After reading your post a couple of times, I honestly feel like I have a less cloudy understanding of how the process works.

It is true that some details have been left out that have prevented me from seeing the full picture. There were most certainly parts where I read something brand new.

I'm not sure if students are astute or not - I guess I'll take your word for it - but I guess I still hope that they are able to participate during the talks behind closed doors so that others, including myself, can really learn more, instead of feeling frustrated about the talks that seemingly go nowhere, potentially leading to a strike of some sort.

If in fact it is the Government that is pulling/cutting the strings, an open negotiation table could allow bargaining talks to be transparent and it could force the Government not to flip-flop on promises.

Thank you for sharing your perspective(s) on the matter, Remy. I am open to hearing more from you, or from other posters on their take.

Edited by Dazzle, 18 November 2012 - 12:23 AM.

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Posted Image --> THANKS EGATTI.

I have to say Dazzle's was the coolest. ROTFLOL


#55 Hugemanskost

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:16 AM

Another teacher, here. I say good on the Ontario Teachers for taking a stand.

A fine post above, by Remy, states my feelings almost perfectly. Well stated, my colleague.

I must say that I care deeply about my students. Each and every one of them. It is our job, as educators and as a part of the community, to foster the development of good, solid human beings through the building of relationships. A large majority of teachers work hard to do this. A community raises children, not just parents.
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