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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 4.0


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#2491 aliboy

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:47 AM

I hope we pull off a trade with someone other than TO.
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#2492 oldnews

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:53 AM

:shock: So u reckon Kessel of Phaneuf is potentially coming back for Lou?

Or at least for someone...?

I must admit, as unpopular as it would be for TO its probably smart. Rebuilding has a potential to have a quick turnaround.

If I'm TO I'm investigating what I can get for Kessel. Unless (and I don't watch TO enough) Phaneuf is too slow, I'm inclined to think he still needs to be part of the equation. That team will completely tank if they lose Phaneuf. Gardiner, Liles and Komisarek individually are too small or too slow. TO may be willing to rebuild, but to blow it up?


Did you miss your morning coffee Surfer?
I wasn't suggesting either of them come to Vancouver.
What I was suggesting was moving those two players for quality young NHL ready players - I gave you examples of some deals where the returns for veterans were a couple of good young players and a pick...The Leafs then wouldn't be quite as thin, they may even have a better character young core, and could also use part of that return and or a player or two from their existing roster to land Luongo (or another veteran).
That's not "blowing it up" - Holmgren didn't "blow it up" when he moved Richards and Carter - he simply created more depth in his organization by changing the makeup at the top of his roster and going younger and deeper.
I suggest the Leafs do the same with Phaneuf. To say they'd completely tank without him is a perfect example of how over-rated he is. It's not unreasonable to think they could land themselves a better young defenseman and a second piece for him. There are actually a lot of better defensemen out there, and that number will continue to rise. Kessel imo is also a good candidate for an overpayment.

Edited by oldnews, 18 January 2013 - 11:13 AM.

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#2493 Boudrias

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:59 AM

When teams like Toronto, Florida, or Philly start loosing 4, 5, or 6 goal games that is when Canucks are in a total commanding position to get the more effective deals.
It seems more logical to wait it out and not rush into any deal now until teams get desperate and you can really pile on the players, prospects, and picks.
Alternatively though this method could backfire of course. Theodore, Reimer, or Bryz could definitely turn it around and become the goalie they need. Once that happens we will no longer have the upper hand. So it might be better to act now before you lose the upper hand.

I personally think the wait and see approach is the best option and I believe that is what Mike Gillis is doing to get also.

If you think the Laffers and the Panthers will deal after losing out of the gate tyhen you have to assume they think they will make playoffs and that it is important that they do. I can believe that about Philly but not necessarily the other two. The assumption could be that they are losing because of their goaltending but the fact might be they are losing because of what is out front. The Laffers simply have to accept a rebuild and Lu doesn't really help. The Panthers are well nto a rebuild with lots of young talent. Lu might make sense but they might decide to invest the ice time in their young guy in the AHL by bringing him up. Markstrom.

Philly might get real interested in Lu as money isn't an issue corporately and making playoffs after last year is a must for them. They have some pieces they could move that would interest Van and in so doing Philly could tighten up their back end enough to be a serious contender in the East.

A Lu deal cannot be weighted to young talent. Van has to get a real top 6 back and not contenders like the Laffers are offering. Van's time line does not support any other option. The only other alternative would be moving Ballard. Dealing him is even more time sensitive because of his history in Van. His optimum price would come closer to the deadline. Another scenario for Van is their d-core shines which allows them more flexibility. I expect great things out of Garrison and also stronger play out of Ballard.
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#2494 WHL rocks

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:03 AM

Hold on to him, it's a condensed season. Any team would be lucky to have 2 #1 goalies. Keep them both for another run this year and see what happens in the summer.

If MG does move him it will pbbly be at the trade deadline when Lu's value will be highest
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#2495 Provost

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:10 AM

MG was on Team 1040 and reading between the lines it sounds like any deal to Toronto is dead. He slammed them for putting out crap out trying to negotiate in the media.

It actually sounded like nothing is on the burner close at all. He talked about "lots of things will happen in the first two weeks of the season"... presumably like injuries or goalies not living up to expectations. My bet is that barring another suitor coming into the mix we will have both goalies for a while.
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#2496 WHL rocks

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:23 AM

It's true, TOR has been trying to negotiate thru the media. Its ridiculous really. The Toronto Sports Network and SPSN do the Leaf's bidding all the time.

The end result is it never seems to help. Leafs still suck.
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#2497 oldnews

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:24 AM

MG was on Team 1040 and reading between the lines it sounds like any deal to Toronto is dead. He slammed them for putting out crap out trying to negotiate in the media.

It actually sounded like nothing is on the burner close at all. He talked about "lots of things will happen in the first two weeks of the season"... presumably like injuries or goalies not living up to expectations. My bet is that barring another suitor coming into the mix we will have both goalies for a while.


That's great news for those of us who find a potential Leafs deal to be unsavory at best.

I don't blame Gillis for slamming Toronto. They are continuing to ride a ridiculous contradiction. We want Luongo, but for free... We can't afford him. We don't have the assets. They' need to go to the Food Bank, or their local Goalie Bank for hopeless NHL franchises, and get a loan.

Making Damien Cox their lead negotiator was bound to blow up in their face. Dreger appears to have toned down his conflict-of-interest-Leafs lobbying - only to see Cox attempting to fill his role. A definite downgrade.
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#2498 elvis15

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:26 AM

I half-agree with you. Phaneuf is not a good fit on that team. And making him captain? Crazy...but can they really take it away from him now?

I still think the answer to Lu in TO could be Phaneuf. I actually think Dion would fit in just fine here. He wouldn't be in a leadership position. We'd get back our RH point-shot that we lost with Salo, and toughen up our 2nd pairing considerably. But will TO do it? Doubt it.

As for Kessel, the thing is, he's still so young. He's been scoring so many goals for so long, that people forget he's still only 25. So although TO could expect quite a package for him, he's probably more worth holding on to - depending on 2 things:

1) He wants to re-sign in Toronto when his contract is up.
2) The Leafs will be targetting players that will help them now, rather than tanking a year or two for high picks.

If either of those are not the case, then yeah, they should deal Kessel too. he'll only help them win enough to not get top picks.

I think they'll stubbornly stick with both, especially Kessel rather than admit failure on Burke's deal, unless they get an overpayment on their worth. I'm not a fan of Phaneuf personally, but he might match up well with Garrison.

To Tor: Luongo, Edler
To Van: Phaneuf, Reilly, Connelly

Lu and Phaneuf both have their supporters and detractors. Edler helps them replace that top end they lose with Phaneuf, and we get a top prospect in return while agreeing to take on Connelly since Edler's a pending UFA.

Unrealistic since there's a lot of big names and my trades are usually simpler if I can help it, but that's the only way I see us bringing back Phaneuf in a Luongo deal.

Edited by elvis15, 18 January 2013 - 11:31 AM.

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#2499 nzan

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:31 AM

MG was on Team 1040 and reading between the lines it sounds like any deal to Toronto is dead. He slammed them for putting out crap out trying to negotiate in the media.

It actually sounded like nothing is on the burner close at all. He talked about "lots of things will happen in the first two weeks of the season"... presumably like injuries or goalies not living up to expectations. My bet is that barring another suitor coming into the mix we will have both goalies for a while.


I would say that even OUR media has been negotiating for Toronto, albeit indirectly.

I think their media has created such a storm of "Luongo is worth nothing more than our spare parts" that guys like Botchford and MacIntyre have picked up on Bozak and Kadri as a potential/sufficient return.

I still don't believe that Gillis would ever have accepted that crap offer for a star goaltender; however, we've heard it so much that it's almost FACT (as reported by MacIntyre) that was the deal. Further, we've heard it so much that we've gotten used to the idea and losing perspective on what a crap offer it really is.
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#2500 nzan

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:35 AM

That's great news for those of us who find a potential Leafs deal to be unsavory at best.

I don't blame Gillis for slamming Toronto. They are continuing to ride a ridiculous contradiction. We want Luongo, but for free... We can't afford him. We don't have the assets. They' need to go to the Food Bank, or their local Goalie Bank for hopeless NHL franchises, and get a loan.

Making Damien Cox their lead negotiator was bound to blow up in their face. Dreger appears to have toned down his conflict-of-interest-Leafs lobbying - only to see Cox attempting to fill his role. A definite downgrade.


Yeah, Dreger has to tone it down, he's now the GM's cousin. He used to only be the Assistant GM's cousin so there was another layer of separation. WAYYYY too obvious now (like it wasn't before!).

Unfortunately, as you said, Cox is just absolutely intolerable (at least with anything regarding the Canucks).

Edited by nzan, 18 January 2013 - 11:36 AM.

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#2501 King of the ES

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:37 AM

You fundamentally misunderstood. I didn't say building a team through the draft doesn't work. What I said is it that is that the NHL has changed the draft to reduce the reward for tanking - what I said i that doesn't work that way anymore King - any team that misses the playoffs can now walk off with the first overall pick. Tanking for the first pick isn't much of a strategy anymore.


The new draft lottery is just like the NBAs. It's not like they take any non-playoff teams, put them in a hat, and draw 1 - 14. Not at all.

Whoever finishes last has a high probability of the 1st overall pick, with their worst case being I think either the 3rd or the 4th overall. Not much has changed and the system still definitely encourages/rewards tanking.
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#2502 oldnews

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:41 AM

I would say that even OUR media has been negotiating for Toronto, albeit indirectly.

I think their media has created such a storm of "Luongo is worth nothing more than our spare parts" that guys like Botchford and MacIntyre have picked up on Bozak and Kadri as a potential/sufficient return.

I still don't believe that Gillis would ever have accepted that crap offer for a star goaltender; however, we've heard it so much that it's almost FACT (as reported by MacIntyre) that was the deal. Further, we've heard it so much that we've gotten used to the idea and losing perspective on what a crap offer it really is.


Botchford is our version of Cox - ie the last guy we would want representing - which is likely a large part of TSN's motivation to make him their voice for the coast. It's a passive aggressive thing - which ironically has no real effect - Gillis could care less what these guys think.
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#2503 King of the ES

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:48 AM

I don't blame Gillis for slamming Toronto. They are continuing to ride a ridiculous contradiction. We want Luongo, but for free... We can't afford him. We don't have the assets. They' need to go to the Food Bank, or their local Goalie Bank for hopeless NHL franchises, and get a loan.


That's not what's happening.

The one known in all of this is that Vancouver MUST get rid of Roberto Luongo, sooner or later - but no later than the off-season, really. Knowing this, you can understand why Toronto, or anybody else, is unwilling to pay up. Mike Gillis has to get rid of Roberto Luongo, and this puts the Vancouver Canucks in a very weak bargaining position.

Deny this all you want, but this is what's happening. This is the game. The whole world knows that Gillis has to get Luongo off of his roster prior to the 2013-14 season. Luongo's price just continues to drop the longer that we hold on to him, because other teams know that Gillis has to come up with a solution prior to the 2013-14 season; meaning that if no trade is made this season, Nonis could well be able to pluck him off of waivers in the summer.
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#2504 Millerdraft

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:49 AM

I still think the answer to Lu in TO could be Phaneuf. I actually think Dion would fit in just fine here. He wouldn't be in a leadership position. We'd get back our RH point-shot that we lost with Salo, and toughen up our 2nd pairing considerably. But will TO do it? Doubt it.


Huh? Dion shoots left.
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Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#2505 Dogbyte

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:57 AM

Say what you want about Eklund, but he was the first to report the deal that ended up resolving the lockout, and earlier today he started the Luongo frenzy with an early morning warning that it was going to heat up today. Better than no rumours, I suppose. He is a valid source per the sticky.


Weren't you the guy slamming people for posting non news related stuff in the news thread? Then you go post this there?

And Edlund called the lockout ending? So he knows how to use the internet or his phone?

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#2506 oldnews

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:59 AM

The new draft lottery is just like the NBAs. It's not like they take any non-playoff teams, put them in a hat, and draw 1 - 14. Not at all.

Whoever finishes last has a high probability of the 1st overall pick, with their worst case being I think either the 3rd or the 4th overall. Not much has changed and the system still definitely encourages/rewards tanking.


All the teams that miss the playoffs will have their balls in the lottery King.

The worst team in the NBA has not won the lottery in recent history.

Last year the Hornets won while Washington was the worst team.
The year before Cleveland won while Minnesota was the worst team.
The year before that Washington won while Minnesota, New Jersey and Sacramento were worse.
The year before the Clippers won while the Kings were the worst team.
The year before that the Bulls won despite 8 teams having worse records....
The year before that Portland won despite 6 teams having worse records...
The year before the Raptors won despite 4 teams having worse records....

It doesn't work that way King. Tanking for the first pick is a losing gamble.

Edited by oldnews, 18 January 2013 - 12:01 PM.

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#2507 oldnews

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:03 PM

That's not what's happening


I agree King. It's not happening. There is no Food or Goalie bank for the Leafs to go to.
Perhaps they should opt for the goalie lottery ticket.

Edited by oldnews, 18 January 2013 - 12:05 PM.

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#2508 The-Impersonator

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:08 PM

Yeah, Dreger has to tone it down, he's now the GM's cousin. He used to only be the Assistant GM's cousin so there was another layer of separation. WAYYYY too obvious now (like it wasn't before!).

Unfortunately, as you said, Cox is just absolutely intolerable (at least with anything regarding the Canucks).


Draeger has little credibility. His sources are one sided and biased.

Lu will end up in Philly or back in Florida where he wants to go. Don't forget he holds the hammer on any potential trade with his NMC and would most likely not want to go to T.O.
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#2509 King of the ES

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:13 PM

All the teams that miss the playoffs will have their balls in the lottery King.

The worst team in the NBA has not won the lottery in recent history.

Last year the Hornets won while Washington was the worst team.
The year before Cleveland won while Minnesota was the worst team.
The year before that Washington won while Minnesota, New Jersey and Sacramento were worse.
The year before the Clippers won while the Kings were the worst team.
The year before that the Bulls won despite 8 teams having worse records....
The year before that Portland won despite 6 teams having worse records...
The year before the Raptors won despite 4 teams having worse records....


And whoever finished worst would've ended up picking 2nd or 3rd. So do you think Toronto would be crushed over having to choose Nate MacKinnon over Seth Jones, or vice versa? Hardly.

It doesn't work that way King. Tanking for the first pick is a losing gamble.


So your recommendation to them is to trade the 25 year-old 30-goal scorer and the 27 year-old cornerstone d-man for "prospect depth", then trade two of your pre-existing high-end prospects (Kadri, Biggs, Gardiner, whoever) to Vancouver for their 34 year-old backup goaltender?
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#2510 Provost

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:18 PM

That's not what's happening.

The one known in all of this is that Vancouver MUST get rid of Roberto Luongo, sooner or later - but no later than the off-season, really.


You have been saying that the Canucks are desperate for months and have to pull the trigger. You can't just keep pushing back the timeline to keep the same argument.

They will trade him at some point or they will trade Schneider at some point.
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#2511 HUFFY

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:25 PM

we can't expect another team, no matter who they are, to give any depth players when Lu is saddled with that hurrendous contract/cap hit, especially when the cap is lowered from the present 70 million to 64 Million, for the next 10 years. TO is not gonna sacrifice their future for Lu and eat that contract at the same time!!! This whole gong show is gonna keep going until Lu decides he's had enough of being a backup and demands a trade (rightfully so) or just simply pulls a Bure and quits playing for them!!! Right now the biggest negative in a possible Luongo deal is that contract. Way to go MG!!!!.......

Edited by HUFFY, 18 January 2013 - 12:26 PM.

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#2512 Skead

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:32 PM

we can't expect another team, no matter who they are, to give any depth players when Lu is saddled with that hurrendous contract/cap hit, especially when the cap is lowered from the present 70 million to 64 Million, for the next 10 years. TO is not gonna sacrifice their future for Lu and eat that contract at the same time!!! This whole gong show is gonna keep going until Lu decides he's had enough of being a backup and demands a trade (rightfully so) or just simply pulls a Bure and quits playing for them!!! Right now the biggest negative in a possible Luongo deal is that contract. Way to go MG!!!!.......


Points to refute your argument;

That contract allows a team to obtain elite level goaltending for a big discount of a normal goalie.

Rinne = 7
Lundqvist = 6.9
Price = 6.5
etc

Luongo at 5.3 allows you to stock up on other assets, perhaps a better 3rd line center/winger? Depth on defense? Especially with the 65 million cap coming up Rinne, Lundqvist, and price are commanding 10%+ of the cap for one position.

As for the long contract, yeah there is some things you have to work out or worry about. But as any team worth it's weight would have a very good team "capologist" / lawyer that surely could mitigate that burden, and if he ends up winning you a cup in 5 years, what's wrong with a 1 million dollar penalty for a few years?

So no, I disagree with you on Luongo's contract making him "worthless"

Edited by Skead, 18 January 2013 - 12:34 PM.

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#2513 Dragonfruits

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:34 PM

With the new cba cant Vancouver keep some of the cap hit to help the other team make it easier to trade Luongo
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#2514 D-Money

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:38 PM

Huh?  Dion shoots left.


Wow, you're right. All this time I thought he was a righty...

Well then, screw Dion - we don't need him. Only way there'd be room for him is if we lost Edler.
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#2515 DeNiro

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:43 PM

There will be injuries, and there will be teams who's goalies struggle.

Oher teams will come knocking a month into the season when they're desperate. I'm not too worried about it.

Edited by DeNiro, 18 January 2013 - 12:43 PM.

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#2516 oldnews

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:46 PM

And whoever finished worst would've ended up picking 2nd or 3rd. So do you think Toronto would be crushed over having to choose Nate MacKinnon over Seth Jones, or vice versa? Hardly.

So your recommendation to them is to trade the 25 year-old 30-goal scorer and the 27 year-old cornerstone d-man for "prospect depth", then trade two of your pre-existing high-end prospects (Kadri, Biggs, Gardiner, whoever) to Vancouver for their 34 year-old backup goaltender?


Again, the bottom 3 are lottery spots - and the worst team hasn't picked 1st since 2004. For the last four years the worst team has picked 4th. And losing in order to eventually win will be a very tough sell in Toronto in either event. "It only takes a minute to mosey over" to google King.

And until you manage to respond to what I've actually proposed the Leafs do, I don't see much point going yet a step further with your taking the liberty of revisions and rewrites.

Edited by oldnews, 18 January 2013 - 12:52 PM.

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#2517 J.R.

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:53 PM

From the "News" thread:

GILLIS RIPS MAPLE LEAFS, TORONTO MEDIA FOR PROPAGATING THE NOTION THAT THE CANUCKS HAVE "ASKED FOR TOO MUCH" IN A LUONGO TRADE

"Fair value is different for every team that you speak to because they have different players, they have different concerns and different contractual issues that play into what they have available that you might want. The notion that we were asking for too much was floated in the Toronto media by a team that was extremely interested in acquiring Roberto and were using every means possible to try and force us to do something that we didn't think was right. That's nothing new in this business and it's' not the type of pressure that I'm going to succumb too."

"I don't care, there's a lot of stuff that's going to happen in the first two weeks of this season. If you start giving all-star players away you'll be at the bottom of this league in a hurry. So we have two really good goalies, I don't know what's going to happen with others team - players might not play well, there may be injuries that they have at that position which may change the landscape. But as it sits today, we need to get something in return that is going to help our team and we're not in the business of just helping other teams so...
I'm comfortable with both these guys starting the season here, I'll be comfortable if we finish the season with them. If something happens and comes our way that allows us to improve, then we're going to do it. And it's all subject to Luongo wanting to go to that city. So, it is a little bit more complicated than people like to think but we feel very comfortable with where we sit today with our goalies."


I say good for Gillis. Exactly what he should be doing/saying.
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#2518 oldnews

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:55 PM

Wow, you're right. All this time I thought he was a righty...

Well then, screw Dion - we don't need him. Only way there'd be room for him is if we lost Edler.


Couldn't agree more. He'd be a 3rd pairing guy in Vancouver, at a ridiculous $6.5 million cap hit. Terrible fit here.
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#2519 King of the ES

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:56 PM

You have been saying that the Canucks are desperate for months and have to pull the trigger. You can't just keep pushing back the timeline to keep the same argument.

They will trade him at some point or they will trade Schneider at some point.


Roberto said that he's not coming back next year (through Ren Lavoie a couple of days ago), so I think the timeline has been set by him.

That notwithstanding, how do you expect us to sign Edler, or do anything else of significance, with $9.3M tied up in our goaltenders? It simply doesn't work to have both goalies, which is plain for anyone to see.
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#2520 Bingo Chili

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:56 PM

good to hear Gillis will not take crap from other teams
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