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For 30 Pieces of Silver St. Johns County, FL School Board Denies Student Led Prayer. Citizens Speak Out!


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#1 Heretic

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:20 PM

Freedom From Religion Foundation sounds more and more like a "religion" to me...

"The St. Johns County School Board is going to hide behind the recommendation of their Attorney Frank Upchurch and deny students their First Amendment Right to Pray. And what great threat is cause the School Board to quake and quiver with fear? Apparently Freedom From Religion, an out of town atheist organization has threatened the SJC Schools with a lawsuit. However, Liberty Counsel has offered SJC Schools a pro bono defense against any lawsuit that would seek to deny students their first amendment rights. And what if SJC Schools lost? The answer is SJC schools should mount an appeal. Should SJC really worry about 30 pieces of silver when our First Amendment Rights are at stake? What sort of example does this teach our kids? They will learn that when adversity comes, one should just cave in."

http://education-cur...zens-speak-out/

Another link:

http://staugustine.c...rayer-test-case

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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#2 Harbinger

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:25 PM

If it is a public funded school then religion must stay out of the class room unless they cater to all the religions and have Jewish muslim hindu, buddhist etc.............. prayers as well. If it is a private school and it is not funded at all by the government. Then have at it Hoss. Pray your guts out.

Edited by Harbinger, 23 April 2013 - 03:27 PM.

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#3 inane

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:26 PM

*
POPULAR

religion... :picard:
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#4 Heretic

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:29 PM

If it is a public funded school then religion must stay out of the class room unless they cater to all the religions and have Jewish muslim hindu, buddhist etc.............. prayers as well. If it is a private school and it is not funded at all by the government. Then have at it Hoss. Pray your guts out.


I agree.
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#5 Heretic

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:29 PM

religion... :picard:


I disagree.
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#6 J.R.

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:33 PM

I disagree.


You're right. The problem is ignorance...it just happens to be in the form of the religious.
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#7 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:52 PM

Ok so just one question...what about the constitutional freedoms of the other students...those of different faiths...those of no faith...does their constitutional freedom not mean as much as the freedom of the Christians who insist on foisting their religion on other people against their will? Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and fine to be proud of it but DON'T whip it out in public and DON'T shove it down kids' throats.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#8 J.R.

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:55 PM

Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and fine to be proud of it but DON'T whip it out in public and DON'T shove it down kids' throats.


Haha..love that!
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"Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you."
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#9 Please Call 911

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:52 PM

I disagree.


What bet did you lose causing you to have a paper bag over the witch in your profile picture?
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Please Call 911

Thanks Mash!


#10 Wetcoaster

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:56 PM

The prohibition on school prayer and other religious observances flow from the US Constitution.

The legal basis for this prohibition is the First Amendment to the United States Constitution which consists firstly of the Establishment Clause and secondly the Free Exercise Clause, which requires that

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...


Per the US Supreme Court in setting very strict standards regarding religion in the public schools:

The promulgation of an official state-school prayer stood in violation of the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause - Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962)

Bible readings and other (state) school-sponsored religious activities are prohibited - Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963)

In Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971), the Lemon test for religious activities within schools was enunciated . The Lemon test states that in order to be constitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment any practice sponsored within state run schools (or other public, state sponsored activities) must adhere to the following three criteria:
  • The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
  • The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
  • The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
If any one of these criteria are not met, then the action or conduct is unconstitutional.

Following Lemon the controversies became over prayer or religious observances at prayer at school-sponsored extracurricular activities.

Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577 (1992) ~ public prayers at graduation ceremonies led by religious authority figures were ruled unconstitutional.

Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290 (2000) ~ a policy permitting student-led, student-initiated prayer at high school football games violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

In a recent case (March 2012) in Rhode Island a prayer mural from 1963 was ordered removed on the application of a teenage student who was an atheist.

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It’s official. The prayer mural that caused so much controversy among atheists and people of faith has been taken down from the auditorium at Cranston High School West in Cranston, Rhode Island. In January, U.S. District Court Judge Ronald Lagueux sided with 16-year-old Jessica Ahlquist, an atheist, in agreeing that the banner should be removed.


Causing local and national controversy, Ahlquist claimed that its presence was offensive to non-Christians and that it violated her civil rights. The lawsuit she initiated has led to intense sparring over the separation of church and state. Additionally, the young woman has been on the receiving end of threats and unpleasant communications for months.


Citing excessive costs and a potentially long legal battle, the local school district decided not to appeal the jude’s removal decision. Thus, the historic mural, which was a gift to the school from the class of 1963, was officially taken down on Saturday and the auditorium was closed on Monday for repairs.


“We are very pleased that the school district has come into compliance with the court order and also in accordance with the school committee’s decision from a couple weeks ago and now we are hopeful we will be able to resolve the last issue that is out there concerning the awarding of attorney fees,” commented Steven Brown of the Rhode Island ACLU.


Ahlquist, too, took to Twitter to commemorate the removal of the prayer banner, writing, “The prayer has officially been removed.”


Brown’s organization represented Ahlquist in her case against the district. Now, another battle looms over the $173,000 in legal fees that the ACLU claims the city of Cranston owes for the atheist student’s representation. While the organization plans to give the district until March 19 to make a decision on the funds, the city of Cranston is still deciding if it will contest the fees.


On Tuesday afternoon, district officials will host a press conference during which the banner’s future will be discussed. According to RI NPR, several religious and secular groups have offered to provide the contentious mural with a new home.

http://www.theblaze....eist-concludes/
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#11 Wetcoaster

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:01 PM

If it is a public funded school then religion must stay out of the class room unless they cater to all the religions and have Jewish muslim hindu, buddhist etc.............. prayers as well. If it is a private school and it is not funded at all by the government. Then have at it Hoss. Pray your guts out.

That is incorrect. No religion in a public school even if granting "equal time".
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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#12 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:02 PM

What a great victory. Thanks for posting that. People are going to figure out really quickly in this country that the freedom of religion also encompasses the freedom from religion and if you presume to step on others constitutional rights by insisting that these offensive murals and prayers continue...then be prepared to pay for it. I personally can't WAIT for the ACLU to take the people here in NC to the cleaners over their submitted unconstitutional measure..which many of us view as a vehicle to institute a state religion. That ain't happening as long as I'm here, cousin...I'll guarantee you that.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#13 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:10 PM

Reminds me of the creation battle in science class. Some Christians want creation taught in science. Of course they mean their creation story only. Not the literally the hundreds of other creation stories from all cultures and religions.
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#14 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:16 PM

Reminds me of the creation battle in science class. Some Christians want creation taught in science. Of course they mean their creation story only. Not the literally the hundreds of other creation stories from all cultures and religions.


They only give a crap about religious tolerance when it's THEIR intolerance that needs to be tolerated, man.

Edited by Scott Hartnell's Mane, 23 April 2013 - 05:16 PM.

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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#15 Stefan

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:34 PM

Freedom From Religion Foundation doesn't sound like a religion. It sounds like a group protecting people from being forced to pray in school, that's what it sounds like.
If there are to be prayers in class, I would like to see the Pastafarian religion be practised as well. It's just as believable as any other religion.
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(1 Peter 2:18)

Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse.



 

#16 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:35 PM

Freedom From Religion Foundation doesn't sound like a religion. It sounds like a group protecting people from being forced to pray in school, that's what it sounds like.
If there are to be prayers in class, I would like to see the Pastafarian religion be practised as well. It's just as believable as any other religion.


R'amen! B)
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#17 Heretic

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:50 PM

Freedom From Religion Foundation doesn't sound like a religion. It sounds like a group protecting people from being forced to pray in school, that's what it sounds like.
If there are to be prayers in class, I would like to see the Pastafarian religion be practised as well. It's just as believable as any other religion.


Wrong - no one is being forced to pray - but everyone is being forced to not pray.

Again - it's a public school - and it should be free - free from both sides.
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
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#18 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:54 PM

Wrong - no one is being forced to pray - but everyone is being forced to not pray.

Again - it's a public school - and it should be free - free from both sides.


Public school. Funded by the state. The state abides by the US Constitution which prohibits school prayer and public prayer. End of discussion.

Edited by Scott Hartnell's Mane, 23 April 2013 - 05:54 PM.

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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#19 Heretic

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:58 PM

What bet did you lose causing you to have a paper bag over the witch in your profile picture?


It's not a witch - the actual title of that picture (which a friend's daughter has let me use) is called "Devil's Servent" he's a drow/dark elf/...

The paper bag was my idea after the Canucks fell out of first in the division because they were playing so poorly...and being a superstitious Canucks fan...I don't want to change it as they have been playing quite well since I did it. ;)
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#20 Heretic

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:59 PM

Public school. Funded by the state. The state abides by the US Constitution which prohibits school prayer and public prayer. End of discussion.


I agree but....does the US Constitution really prohibit school and public prayer?
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
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#21 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:13 PM

I might be generalizing and combining recent thread developments, but It should be fairly easy to defend against a lawsuit conjured up by a group of autistics.
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#22 Wetcoaster

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:20 PM

I agree but....does the US Constitution really prohibit school and public prayer?

Yes, if such activities are not in accordance with the case law established by the US Supreme Court.
http://forum.canucks.../#entry11326242
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#23 Heretic

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:21 PM

This is the part that I don't understand:

"Ahlquist claimed that its presence was offensive to non-Christians and that it violated her civil rights.".
Offensive? Okay. I find it offensive when people use Jesus Christ as a swear word or God.
I find vulgar language of any kind offensive.
I'm sure many other people are the same.
Yet you never see anyone asking to have it "removed" from public schools.
What about the rights of children to go to a public school free from vulgarity?
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#24 Heretic

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:23 PM

Yes, if such activities are not in accordance with the case law established by the US Supreme Court.
http://forum.canucks.../#entry11326242


Yes, I read that - it didn't say it was in the constitution.
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
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#25 Wetcoaster

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:25 PM

Yes, I read that - it didn't say it was in the constitution.

Yes it does. Article 1.
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#26 Heretic

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:27 PM

Yes it does. Article 1.


Article 1?

Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
http://www.usconstit...net/xconst.html
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
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#27 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:33 PM

This is the part that I don't understand:

"Ahlquist claimed that its presence was offensive to non-Christians and that it violated her civil rights.".
Offensive? Okay. I find it offensive when people use Jesus Christ as a swear word or God.
I find vulgar language of any kind offensive.
I'm sure many other people are the same.
Yet you never see anyone asking to have it "removed" from public schools.
What about the rights of children to go to a public school free from vulgarity?


A: Get your knickers out of a twist...you like George Carlin right? You remember the one he did about how there's no bad language? No words that have ever been uttered were bad all on their own...if you remember he said it's the context in which the words are being used that makes them good or bad. And I 100% disagree with you on that...because as long as I can remember all the public schools here in NC have prohibited any swear words being worn on t-shirts in school. I know because I was suspended twice for wearing a White Zombie tee that on the back read "I went to HELL and all I got was this Crummy T-shirt"...so you would be incorrect on that assumption.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#28 Heretic

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:34 PM

According to this: http://www.usconstit...sttop_reli.html

"Religion makes only one direct and obvious appearance in the original Constitution that seems to point to a desire for some degree of religious freedom. That appearance is in Article 6, at the end of the third clause:

[N]o religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.



This statement is simple and straight-forward, and applies to all offices in the entire United States, both state and federal. The clause simply means that no public position can be required to be held by any one of any religious denomination. It would be unconstitutional for there to be a requirement that the President by Lutheran, or even for the mayor of a small town to be Christian. Likewise, it would be unconstitutional for a law to forbid a Jew or Muslim from holding any office in any governmental jurisdiction in the United States. (This having been said, it should be noted that several state constitutions do have a religious test — specifically, they deny office to anyone unwilling to acknowledge God or a Supreme Being.)"

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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
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#29 Heretic

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:36 PM

A: Get your knickers out of a twist...you like George Carlin right? You remember the one he did about how there's no bad language? No words that have ever been uttered were bad all on their own...if you remember he said it's the context in which the words are being used that makes them good or bad. And I 100% disagree with you on that...because as long as I can remember all the public schools here in NC have prohibited any swear words being worn on t-shirts in school. I know because I was suspended twice for wearing a White Zombie tee that on the back read "I went to HELL and all I got was this Crummy T-shirt"...so you would be incorrect on that assumption.


Exactly!!!!!!!!

So how can an atheist teenager be "offended" by The Lords Prayer?

If you don't like George Carlin - don't watch him.
If you don't like The Lords Prayer - don't read it.

Simple solution eh?
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
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#30 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:40 PM

Exactly!!!!!!!!

So how can an atheist teenager be "offended" by The Lords Prayer?

If you don't like George Carlin - don't watch him.
If you don't like The Lords Prayer - don't read it.

Simple solution eh?


Because the Lords Prayer as it is sectarian violates that atheist student's constitutional freedom. That's just the way it is. George Carlin and unconstitutional prayer are two wildly different things. One is dealing with freedom of speech...the other is dealing with the freedom of religion...I'm certainly entitled to my freedom from religion as much as you are (hypothetical, since you don't live here..but bear with me) the freedom to practice your own religion. The problem starts when you begin proselytizing and praying in public around those that don't share your beliefs.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.





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