The Lock Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Just now, canuckistani said: Most of them picked it up in their late teens/early 20s, especially the musicians i am thinking of. Well that is a first world entitlement issue. One does not have to be miserable if they don't truly enjoy their line of work for what it is, beyond taking joys at being good at what they do. This makes no sense. If there is more money in science than arts- which there is, and if there are way more failed artists ( from the professional sense), which also there are, then it'd make sense for the failed artists to pick up science and segway into greater paying jobs. But this hardly ever happens, because science and math skills are far harder to be self taught in, learn later in life, etc. Well you've spent most of this afternoon arguing on why math is relevant if it is not required for work. I am simply pointing out by that rationale, art is even less relevant and so is history. It isn't end-all, be-all, but it is a far more important subject for teens and young adults than music , painting, sculpting or history. Late teens can be in school partially. Keep that in mind. Also, if you are talking about bands or something along those lines, that doesn't take as much time to master as some other arts. You don't even have to be a good musician to make good music. In fact, music is math. It's all based on hertz values and fractions believe it or not. Other arts however really depend. Some can take a long time to master, many years even, just like math. I think you are underestimating art in all of this. How does this not make sense when you just described how it makes sense? There are more jobs in science. There are failed jobs in art. Both math and art can be equally just as hard to learn later on and art can require teachers to help. Curious, tell me, what do you know about art? What experience do you have in it? If none, then stop talking, because there's no way I'd even consider you to be a credible source. Not that I care for an ego trip, but I'm in both math and art. I can tell you from first hand experience both have their required skills. They are equals and, if you don't believe, me, try some art. I love both math and art and I see where both are important in this world. You haven't mentioned a thing in this argument until now about the relationship of art and rational. You really like to shift those goal-posts when backed into a corner don't you? lol Just now, canuckistani said: elitism because i said ability to do math is more important life skill than ability to paint ?!? Is that why in struggling nations where education budget is an issue, people learn math way more than splashing around colors ?!? Perhaps consider that many people are telling you this. You know the saying: if one person says something, take it with a grain of salt. If a lot of people say it, it's probably true. Honest feedback here: Do I consider you intelligent? Yes. Do I consider you to have an ego? Yes. Do I think that ego gets in the way of your intelligence? Also yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, wiseupsucker said: No, because the way you come off with your arguments are kinda nonsensical, and black and white.. 1.Feel free to point out what is nonsensical. 2. some things ARE black and white. Math is a superior life skill than ability to draw for specie homo sapiens. 4 minutes ago, wiseupsucker said: What if somebody was just sorta good at math and art at the same time? All the power to them. 4 minutes ago, wiseupsucker said: What if there was a spectrum where most people fit on this? And what if they did all right on it? In your worl they don't have a place on this but the real world says otherwise. I never said anything about place in the world, i am simply talking about what should be taught in schools as skills to improve the education of a person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MystifyNCrucify Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Bark bark my chihuahua pet! Fetch. Good boy. Youll get treats if you do your wall of text act. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, The Lock said: Late teens can be in school partially. Keep that in mind. Also, if you are talking about bands or something along those lines, that doesn't take as much time to master as some other arts. You don't even have to be a good musician to make good music. In fact, music is math. It's all based on hertz values and fractions believe it or not. i know music is based on math but being good at music doesn't make one good at math. 2 minutes ago, The Lock said: Other arts however really depend. Some can take a long time to master, many years even, just like math. I think you are underestimating art in all of this. Nothing is being under-estimated here, they are simply not of equal value in the workplace and they are also not equal in terms of difficulty of learning at a given age. 2 minutes ago, The Lock said: How does this not make sense when you just described how it makes sense? Your conclusion does not make sense to the observations i pointed out ( which does). If math was as easy as art to learn, we'd have just as many 40-something first time engineers as musicians. More so, especially since its easier to get a job as an engineer than a musician. 2 minutes ago, The Lock said: There are more jobs in science. There are failed jobs in art. Both math and art can be equally just as hard to learn later on and art can require teachers to help. Disagree. Objective data shows us that there are hardly any late lifer people in science & math compared to in arts. Ergo art is easier to learn later in life. 2 minutes ago, The Lock said: Curious, tell me, what do you know about art? What experience do you have in it? If none, then stop talking, because there's no way I'd even consider you to be a credible source. I am a fairly competent musician in my instrument of choice. 2 minutes ago, The Lock said: Not that I care for an ego trip, but I'm in both math and art. I can tell you from first hand experience both have their required skills. They are equals and, if you don't believe, me, try some art. I love both math and art and I see where both are important in this world. I have tried many art, especially 'modern art' painting, they are NOT equal in skills required as science & math. 2 minutes ago, The Lock said: You haven't mentioned a thing in this argument until now about the relationship of art and rational. You really like to shift those goal-posts when backed into a corner don't you? lol Except i don't believe i am being backed into a corner just because you believe the nonsense that all subjects are equally hard as each other. They are not. 2 minutes ago, The Lock said: Perhaps consider that many people are telling you this. You know the saying: if one person says something, take it with a grain of salt. If a lot of people say it, it's probably true. Honest feedback here: Do I consider you intelligent? Yes. Do I consider you to have an ego? Yes. Do I think that ego gets in the way of your intelligence? Also yes. Well i can find plenty of people too who do not believe in equality of difficulty in all subjects of intellectual and artistic persuit. I certainly do not ascribe to the belief system that all subjects are equally easy to learn or master for the average populace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiseupsucker Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, canuckistani said: 1.Feel free to point out what is nonsensical. this 6 minutes ago, canuckistani said: Math is a superior life skill than ability to draw for specie homo sapiens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, wiseupsucker said: this prove that it is nonsensical. I can prove that the ability to do math is far more relevant to day to day life - of even hunter gatherers- than to splash around paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MystifyNCrucify Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 The ability to add one and one, doesnt mean sheet unless you can apply it to something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Just now, canuckistani said: i know music is based on math but being good at music doesn't make one good at math. Nothing is being under-estimated here, they are simply not of equal value in the workplace and they are also not equal in terms of difficulty of learning at a given age. Your conclusion does not make sense to the observations i pointed out ( which does). If math was as easy as art to learn, we'd have just as many 40-something first time engineers as musicians. More so, especially since its easier to get a job as an engineer than a musician. Disagree. Objective data shows us that there are hardly any late lifer people in science & math compared to in arts. Ergo art is easier to learn later in life. I am a fairly competent musician in my instrument of choice. I have tried many art, especially 'modern art' painting, they are NOT equal in skills required as science & math. Except i don't believe i am being backed into a corner just because you believe the nonsense that all subjects are equally hard as each other. They are not. Well i can find plenty of people too who do not believe in equality of difficulty in all subjects of intellectual and artistic persuit. I certainly do not ascribe to the belief system that all subjects are equally easy to learn or master for the average populace. Actually, studies have shown that people who do music while in school do better in math so you're quite wrong with that point. You clearly love math more than art. That's at least what I'm understanding in all of this (correct me if I'm wrong). However, just because you love something more than the other doesn't mean it's more important outside of what you do. There are professions out there that require more art than math. There are professions that require both! What I am getting out of all of this: it it of my understanding that,, perhaps because you grew up a certain way, or perhaps because you have done well in school, you think the world should be like you. Perhaps this is not what you intend. but it's certainly how you come across as. If you are a fairly competent musician and have tried art (I question that a bit but whatever, I'm not going to judge because anyone can be anything on the internetz), modern art's kind of anything you want it to be, and competency in music: I've seen people who called themselves competent and couldn't even play a basic song. Hey, if you like math more, than great, but that doesn't make you right or wrong in any case. It's our differing opinions in the end and I grow weary of these circular arguments where nothing is really won or lost (aside from my wasted time on this forum...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 8 minutes ago, canuckistani said: prove that it is nonsensical. I can prove that the ability to do math is far more relevant to day to day life - of even hunter gatherers- than to splash around paint. Why should he do that when you don't even believe him to begin with? It's not like you're going to believe him even if he came up with the greatest argument of all time. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiseupsucker Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Just now, canuckistani said: prove that it is nonsensical. I can prove that the ability to do math is far more relevant to day to day life - of even hunter gatherers- than to splash around paint. No. I can prove that a mix is not really a bad thing. I'm a pipe fitter. We use math for measurements, we have to calculate angles and offsets. We also use advanced math for weird angles and offsets. Stringlines, levels, measuring off of different things to make things square and plumb. But... We also use our imagination to work routes that make sense. That work within a system and the materials you have. We have the ability to draw out isometric drawings, with the ability to use math and make material takeoffs. Take it a step further...I'm now an instrumentation mechanic apprentice. We also use a ton of math to bending tube to square rooting flow controls. But we also use our imaginations to troubleshoot and figure out whats going on. What flashes to gas at this temperature type of thing. That is art and imagination. So prove to me that the ability to do just straight math is far more relevant 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Just now, wiseupsucker said: No. I can prove that a mix is not really a bad thing. I'm a pipe fitter. We use math for measurements, we have to calculate angles and offsets. We also use advanced math for weird angles and offsets. Stringlines, levels, measuring off of different things to make things square and plumb. But... We also use our imagination to work routes that make sense. That work within a system and the materials you have. We have the ability to draw out isometric drawings, with the ability to use math and make material takeoffs. Take it a step further...I'm now an instrumentation mechanic apprentice. We also use a ton of math to bending tube to square rooting flow controls. But we also use our imaginations to troubleshoot and figure out whats going on. What flashes to gas at this temperature type of thing. That is art and imagination. So prove to me that the ability to do just straight math is far more relevant This is all very true. I am in computer science. I need math to do certain tasks, but the programming part in itself is actually pretty artistic. Math won't teach you how to program. You need a knowledge of your tools and the paths you can take to create that program and problem solving skills are really the biggest asset in all of it. You could probably even get away with not having to solve a math equation in some programs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Just now, The Lock said: Actually, studies have shown that people who do music while in school do better in math so you're quite wrong with that point. Sure. That is irrelevant to my point. THat music can augument math skills passively is true. However, it is not required. I picked up music in my 20s and given that I can do most music pieces on my chosen instrument, is a testament to the fact that music can be learnt later in life. My point is simple - it is easier to learn science, math & language at a younger age than as adults compared to arts. The objective evidence of that, is there are plenty of professional musicians who picked up music later in life and succeeded but hardly anyone picks up science & math later on in life and succeed professionally. Just now, The Lock said: You clearly love math more than art. That's at least what I'm understanding in all of this (correct me if I'm wrong). I don't love math at all. its boring & dry. I am good at it, because it is an objectively greater life skill to be good at than art. Being able to do quick tally on my head and compare prices based on weight objectively helps me shop every single time for food, my ability to play a musical instrument does nothing of that sort, except please me. Its a luxury, not a requirement. Just now, The Lock said: What I am getting out of all of this: it it of my understanding that,, perhaps because you grew up a certain way, or perhaps because you have done well in school, you think the world should be like you. Perhaps this is not what you intend. but it's certainly how you come across as. 'Like me' is how curriculums in Japan, India, China, Korea, Singapore are run and they out-number the soft high school education systems of the western world. If you think that I think poorly of western education system to be soft in high school level, you are 100% correct. Just now, The Lock said: If you are a fairly competent musician and have tried art (I question that a bit but whatever, I'm not going to judge because anyone can be anything on the internetz), modern art's kind of anything you want it to be, and competency in music: I've seen people who called themselves competent and couldn't even play a basic song. Well if its anything you want it to be, then objectively it lacks qualitative standard and is easier than something that has qualitative standard. This makes realist paintings harder than modern art painting, it makes ballet tougher than modern dancing, etc. Just now, The Lock said: Hey, if you like math more, than great, but that doesn't make you right or wrong in any case. It does make me right in the simple statement that learning more math helps develop rational skills more than any other subject known to mankind and therefore, should be an object of focus in educating our children. Just now, The Lock said: It's our differing opinions in the end and I grow weary of these circular arguments where nothing is really won or lost (aside from my wasted time on this forum...) Ok. Well, your opinion seems to be that all subjects are perfectly equal in its difficulty level, mine is, they most definitely are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, The Lock said: Why should he do that when you don't even believe him to begin with? It's not like you're going to believe him even if he came up with the greatest argument of all time. lol Hello, scientific rationalism 101: i don't believe what you are saying and if you can prove it, then i will believe you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiseupsucker Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 HAHAHA, he doesn't get it. Without the ability to problem solve, math wouldn't be around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, wiseupsucker said: No. I can prove that a mix is not really a bad thing. Having a mix does not make it that there is a lack of priority or heirarchy, either. Things can be optimal in a mix and that mix can still have more/less important members to it. 6 minutes ago, wiseupsucker said: So prove to me that the ability to do just straight math is far more relevant There is nothing to prove, because the discussion is not about imaginative problem solving vs memorizing X amount of pre-planned solutions. I said that math is far more important a life skill than art. Your example does nothing whatsoever to contrast the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 1 minute ago, wiseupsucker said: HAHAHA, he doesn't get it. Without the ability to problem solve, math wouldn't be around sure. Math is just a notational form of problem solving. Just like how music notation didn't exist before music itself but massively improved music, same applies for problem solving and math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Just now, canuckistani said: Sure. That is irrelevant to my point. THat music can augument math skills passively is true. However, it is not required. I picked up music in my 20s and given that I can do most music pieces on my chosen instrument, is a testament to the fact that music can be learnt later in life. My point is simple - it is easier to learn science, math & language at a younger age than as adults compared to arts. The objective evidence of that, is there are plenty of professional musicians who picked up music later in life and succeeded but hardly anyone picks up science & math later on in life and succeed professionally. I don't love math at all. its boring & dry. I am good at it, because it is an objectively greater life skill to be good at than art. Being able to do quick tally on my head and compare prices based on weight objectively helps me shop every single time for food, my ability to play a musical instrument does nothing of that sort, except please me. Its a luxury, not a requirement. 'Like me' is how curriculums in Japan, India, China, Korea, Singapore are run and they out-number the soft high school education systems of the western world. If you think that I think poorly of western education system to be soft in high school level, you are 100% correct. Well if its anything you want it to be, then objectively it lacks qualitative standard and is easier than something that has qualitative standard. This makes realist paintings harder than modern art painting, it makes ballet tougher than modern dancing, etc. It does make me right in the simple statement that learning more math helps develop rational skills more than any other subject known to mankind and therefore, should be an object of focus in educating our children. Ok. Well, your opinion seems to be that all subjects are perfectly equal in its difficulty level, mine is, they most definitely are not. Wow, you really do have a big ego.... Okay then..... The only statement I care to respond to anymore is the bolded. Again, you never said this in our argument so you're just giving yourself a random statement and calling yourself "right". If that's what you believe than fine, but you are lying to yourself, as you probably are about a lot of things. lol I bid you a farewell and good luck in your future endeavours. You'll need some soft skills after school. Start learning them because you don't have them based on what I've seen here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, The Lock said: This is all very true. I am in computer science. I need math to do certain tasks, but the programming part in itself is actually pretty artistic. Math won't teach you how to program. You need a knowledge of your tools and the paths you can take to create that program and problem solving skills are really the biggest asset in all of it. You could probably even get away with not having to solve a math equation in some programs. I too am a programmer and i completely disagree. The fundamental to programming is mathematical logic in all aspects and the 'art' in programming is simply figuring out the logical/mathematical pathways. That, unless you are literally a front end designer playing around with CSS and photoshop. The problem solving ability in programming is massively enhanced by mathematical skill, which is perhaps why i advanced much quicker in this field than i should've given my actual experience programming. Edited June 2, 2019 by canuckistani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, canuckistani said: Hello, scientific rationalism 101: i don't believe what you are saying and if you can prove it, then i will believe you. So everything is scientific with you. I get it now. Smart in one area but can't comprehend outside of science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 1 minute ago, The Lock said: Wow, you really do have a big ego.... Okay then..... Saying i am right about something that can be objectively measured, is not ego, its a statement of fact. Someone who says the sun appears orange-ish yellow isnt being egotistic either. 1 minute ago, The Lock said: The only statement I care to respond to anymore is the bolded. Again, you never said this in our argument so you're just giving yourself a random statement and calling yourself "right". If that's what you believe than fine, but you are lying to yourself, as you probably are about a lot of things. lol We got this far off topic solely because i noted how math education is superior outside the western world at high school level and you started saying its professionally unnecessary.. 1 minute ago, The Lock said: I bid you a farewell and good luck in your future endeavours. You'll need some soft skills after school. Start learning them because you don't have them based on what I've seen here. LOL. Funnily enough i've spent almost as much time in the soft-skills of people management as hard science skills in my career. you are talking to a 40-something man, not a young adult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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