Top 50 Canucks of All-Time - #7

[Timbermen]

Voted Gradin

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[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Luongo is great.  In the Hall of Fame if it's up to me.  Ring of Honour in Vancouver at a minimum if it's up to me.

 

But at the same time, I've watched a lot of Canucks hockey, and I can say that we rarely if ever actually lost a playoff game because of Kirk McLean or Richard Brodeur.  Luongo singlehandedly made a lot of playoff games impossible to win.  That doesn't mean he sucks...inconsistency and unpredictability in huge games was just part of the package with him, and he came through more often than he didn't in big playoff games...but not that much more often.

 

Although Luongo actually was named team captain, McLean was much more like a second captain in the net.  He was a stabilizing force that just settled the team down.  With Lu, you had to watch part of the game first to see which version you were getting.

 

The difference between McLean and Luongo in the playoffs...and I think this is part of why people who saw both Cup runs feel a little more satisfied with 1994...is that McLean unquestionably played well enough to win the Stanley Cup, as did the whole team.  They basically won the Stanley Cup, but only lost it because they and the Rangers ended up in a photofinish and you couldn't award the Cup to both teams.  In 2011, the Canucks just got beat...and for half of the series they got owned, way worse than the Islanders did to Vancouver in 1982.

Entering the Boston series Luongo was one of three Canucks being debated for the Conn Smythe - with Kesler and and third place Bieksa.   The Boston series wasn't his best - but it was good enough to win IF we had any offensive support. Including game 7.    He had one blowout - but also won three games too, and two of them were 1-0 shutouts, the other a 3-2 OT win which is about as clutch as you can hope from your goalie in a series.  The biggest difference with Luongo and McLean is McLean had support from his forwards where as Luongo had to win the entire series on his own if we were to win a cup.  McLean also lost one game 5-1....but still his team scored 19 goals where as the 2011 team scored 7 ... and made it to game seven somehow (because Luongo helped them get there with 2 1-0 shutouts and one 3-2 OT win).  He also had his second shutout after his big blow out.  Think if we won game seven Thomas would still get the Conn Smythe - but if he didn't Luongo would have.   The announcers even said it was between Luongo and Thomas before the game - whomever wins it's going to a goalie. 

 

Overall his best series was against Turco (Dallas), without him we'd have been owned.

 

Statiscally neither Broduer or McLean can touch Luongo.  I get what your saying but Luongo was dynamite up until the Boston series - and even that one he was definitely our best player.  What did we score like 7 goals (or was it eight?).  

 

The 1982 series is considered the worst final in the history of the league by THN...we did make it to OT one game... and I'm a Broduer fan too - who can't like a player called King Richard.   But the seas parted for us and the lesser teams won on the way to the final making it possible - until our eventual brick wall in the NYI dynasty.    Get we all have our favourites I do too - but Luongo is definitely the best goalie we've ever had,  McLean is close - also a Vezina finalist and considered a top five goalie for a few years .. and I actually like him a lot more - but have to say that's the order with Broduer taking the third spot.   If you had to start a franchise now and could pick any goalie we've ever had who would you take?

[Baratheon]

3 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Luongo is great and belongs on the list, but people do forget that Kirk McLean still holds the record for career playoff wins, career playoff games and in fact career games altogether, playoffs and regular season, together and separately.  There are some marks that Lu never matched...

 

Luongo and McLean are both tied as being a Vezina finalist twice as a Canuck.

 

Heh, and we aren't still paying Kirk McLean to not play.  He does that for free! 

You make some great points!  I love me some Captain Kirk!  You haven't convinced me though.  I still gotta go with Luongo.  I don't think Vancouver has ever had a goaltender like him.  That's not a knock against Kirk though!  Just a compliment to Roberto.

[Kevin Biestra]

38 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Entering the Boston series Luongo was one of three Canucks being debated for the Conn Smythe - with Kesler and and third place Bieksa.   The Boston series wasn't his best - but it was good enough to win IF we had any offensive support. Including game 7.    He had one blowout - but also won three games too, and two of them were 1-0 shutouts, the other a 3-2 OT win which is about as clutch as you can hope from your goalie in a series.  The biggest difference with Luongo and McLean is McLean had support from his forwards where as Luongo had to win the entire series on his own if we were to win a cup.  McLean also lost one game 5-1....but still his team scored 19 goals where as the 2011 team scored 7 ... and made it to game seven somehow (because Luongo helped them get there with 2 1-0 shutouts and one 3-2 OT win).  He also had his second shutout after his big blow out.  Think if we won game seven Thomas would still get the Conn Smythe - but if he didn't Luongo would have.   The announcers even said it was between Luongo and Thomas before the game - whomever wins it's going to a goalie. 

 

Overall his best series was against Turco (Dallas), without him we'd have been owned.

 

Statiscally neither Broduer or McLean can touch Luongo.  I get what your saying but Luongo was dynamite up until the Boston series - and even that one he was definitely our best player.  What did we score like 7 goals (or was it eight?).  

 

The 1982 series is considered the worst final in the history of the league by THN...we did make it to OT one game... and I'm a Broduer fan too - who can't like a player called King Richard.   But the seas parted for us and the lesser teams won on the way to the final making it possible - until our eventual brick wall in the NYI dynasty.    Get we all have our favourites I do too - but Luongo is definitely the best goalie we've ever had,  McLean is close - also a Vezina finalist and considered a top five goalie for a few years .. and I actually like him a lot more - but have to say that's the order with Broduer taking the third spot.   If you had to start a franchise now and could pick any goalie we've ever had who would you take?

 

As far as greatest Canuck goalie - and by that I am including the criteria of "who is the greatest Canuck" - I have it McLean, Luongo, Brodeur.  And McLean by a hair over Luongo.  As to whom I would pick to base a franchise around, and by that I mean we are assuming we get the goalie for his whole career...

 

This is actually trickier than it seems.  Given that Lu has played the second most games in NHL history by a goalie, and all of that as "good" at a minimum, I'll go with Lu.  But the thing is, if you pick Brodeur, you get his WHA years as well, and he had more longevity than McLean.  And he backstopped his team to the WHA's Stanley Cup, and that meant beating a field that included Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull.  He stared down Bobby Hull in the AVCO Cup final and won.  He is the only one of the three that actually got his hands on the holy grail.

 

McLean had less career longevity.  He was kind of like Stan Smyl, who was also done rather early in life.

 

So...I would pick Lu to build a team around.  But it's a lot closer than people would think.  And people don't appreciate how Brodeur's numbers suffered from playing 32 games a year against Gretzky and friends, Dionne and the triple crown line, Hawerchuk, and Lanny + Kent Nilsson etc.  He had to play against a guy that got 200 points a year, eight games a year, while the best scorer on his own team would get 75-90 points.  And those Canucks had Snepsts, and later on Lidster...but they were absolutely not known for having a six-deep defensive group.

 

And neither Brodeur nor McLean wanted to leave and stop being a part of what the Canucks were building.

 

Lu's exit was much more akin to that of Kesler than that of Linden or Brodeur or McLean or Snepsts the first time.  And that detracts a bit from being the "greatest Canuck."  Not a ton, but a bit.  The second the guy didn't start a playoff game he started pouting and talking about being traded.  Just chill out man!  That was exactly the sort of reactionary mental spiraling that we never saw from Captain Cool or King Richard.

 

 

 

As to Lu in 2011.  Like I said, he played some great hockey and was in the running for the Conn Smythe.  But he also laid some eggs in Boston and Chicago.  We almost had the biggest collapse in NHL history and needed overtime to avoid that.  Like I said elsewhere, Lu was three parts Patrick Roy, one part Dan Cloutier.  With Kirk McLean we never had to hope not to see the Dan Cloutier version because he didn't have one.

 

And as to Lu's run support and how few goals we scored against Boston...  That's true.  But that doesn't mean he didn't also make it impossible to win a couple games before our own scoring even came into play.  He played bad enough at times to make sure we lost.  And the rest of the team also played bad enough at times to make sure we lost.  Just because they did it at the same time, doesn't mean we get to pretend that either played well in those situations.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

As far as greatest Canuck goalie - and by that I am including the criteria of "who is the greatest Canuck" - I have it McLean, Luongo, Brodeur.  And McLean by a hair over Luongo.  As to whom I would pick to base a franchise around, and by that I mean we are assuming we get the goalie for his whole career...

 

This is actually trickier than it seems.  Given that Lu has played the second most games in NHL history by a goalie, and all of that as "good" at a minimum, I'll go with Lu.  But the thing is, if you pick Brodeur, you get his WHA years as well, and he had more longevity than McLean.  And he backstopped his team to the WHA's Stanley Cup, and that meant beating a field that included Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull.  He stared down Bobby Hull in the AVCO Cup final and won.  He is the only one of the three that actually got his hands on the holy grail.

 

McLean had less career longevity.  He was kind of like Stan Smyl, who was also done rather early in life.

 

So...I would pick Lu to build a team around.  But it's a lot closer than people would think.  And people don't appreciate how Brodeur's numbers suffered from playing 32 games a year against Gretzky and friends, Dionne and the triple crown line, Hawerchuk, and Lanny + Kent Nilsson etc.  He had to play against a guy that got 200 points a year, eight games a year, while the best scorer on his own team would get 75-90 points.  And those Canucks had Snepsts, and later on Lidster...but they were absolutely not known for having a six-deep defensive group.

 

And neither Brodeur nor McLean wanted to leave and stop being a part of what the Canucks were building.

 

Lu's exit was much more akin to that of Kesler than that of Linden or Brodeur or McLean or Snepsts the first time.  And that detracts a bit from being the "greatest Canuck."  Not a ton, but a bit.  The second the guy didn't start a playoff game he started pouting and talking about being traded.  Just chill out man!  That was exactly the sort of reactionary mental spiraling that we never saw from Captain Cool or King Richard.

 

 

 

As to Lu in 2011.  Like I said, he played some great hockey and was in the running for the Conn Smythe.  But he also laid some eggs in Boston and Chicago.  We almost had the biggest collapse in NHL history and needed overtime to avoid that.  Like I said elsewhere, Lu was three parts Patrick Roy, one part Dan Cloutier.  With Kirk McLean we never had to hope not to see the Dan Cloutier version because he didn't have one.

 

And as to Lu's run support and how few goals we scored against Boston...  That's true.  But that doesn't mean he didn't also make it impossible to win a couple games before our own scoring even came into play.  He played bad enough at times to make sure we lost.  And the rest of the team also played bad enough at times to make sure we lost.  Just because they did it at the same time, doesn't mean we get to pretend that either played well in those situations.

 

 

 

 

I'm cool with that - it is razor thin - my heart goes with McLean every time, stupid brain keeps getting in the way.   One thing that Luongo will never have - despite all the accolades and gold medals is "the Save".  Actually same with Roy, Hasek and Sawchuk.   Those not old enough just have to google it plus NHL and they will likely find it right away - or one of Vernons which is pretty ironic.   That was absolutely and until we actually n a cup - my favourite team.

 

Broduer you've represented since the start....Boudrais also needs to get in soon.  So does Lumme, Lidster and Jovo on D side (not sure why you have Jovo so low - I wasn't particularly fond of that era but he was very good)...anyways always fun posting with you - and "King Richard" forever !!

 

edit: on the Gretzky comment - do you know what goalie he burned more times then any other ??!  Bet you do...

 

edit:  think you need to re-consider Broduer's AVCO cup - if we do that then Messier enters the leaderboard as number one with 6 cups, including the 6th which was against us...Broduer didn't win 200 games as a Canuck.   Markstrom should catch up with his next contract...

Edited March 26, 2020 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

33 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I'm cool with that - it is razor thin - my heart goes with McLean every time, stupid brain keeps getting in the way.   One thing that Luongo will never have - despite all the accolades and gold medals is "the Save".  Actually same with Roy, Hasek and Sawchuk.   Those not old enough just have to google it plus NHL and they will likely find it right away - or one of Vernons which is pretty ironic.   That was absolutely and until we actually won a cup - my favourite team.

 

Broduer you've represented since the start....Boudrais also needs to get in soon.  So does Lumme, Lidster and Jovo on D side (not sure why you have Jovo so low - I wasn't particularly fond of that era but he was very good)...anyways always fun posting with you - and "King Richard" forever !!

 

edit: on the Gretzky comment - do you know what goalie he burned more times then any other ??!  Bet you do...

 

Heh, of course I know...  Brodeur was the only goalie to be in a division with Gretzky the whole time until Gretzky was traded (i.e. all of his 200 point-ish years).  All the other three teams in the division were goalie graveyards of sorts.

 

Jovo...  Heck of a player but only suited up for 400-ish games.  There's a pretty big difference between 400 and 600 games for a skater when I'm doing these things.  His peak was quite high though.

 

I completely agree about Boudrias.  I love Kurtenbach, but the credit he gets as the team's pioneer should be shared with Boudrias, who was also on the 70-71 roster and stayed with the team longer, and was an impact player the whole way.

 

 

 

As to your quote:  "my heart goes with McLean every time, stupid brain keeps getting in the way."

 

I would say...don't discount the heart in these matters.  That's why stories like Rocky Balboa and Vince Papale (Invincible) and the 1980 Miracle on Ice capture people.  Kirk Gibson's home run, Trevor Linden will play, he will play on crutches, Ali vs. Foreman, Bob Baun's broken leg Stanley Cup goal, Michael Jordan's flu game...  Legends are made in the heart.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[Kevin Biestra]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

edit:  think you need to re-consider Broduer's AVCO cup - if we do that then Messier enters the leaderboard as number one with 6 cups, including the 6th which was against us...Broduer didn't win 200 games as a Canuck.   Markstrom should catch up with his next contract...

 

I only included the AVCO Cup stuff because your question was who I would want to build a team around.

 

I haven't included that in my "greatest Canuck" criteria, just like I haven't included Rick Vaive's 50 goal seasons, Jimmy Carson's career, the careers of Mel Bridgman or Pit Martin or Gary Leeman or Bill Derlago or Dirk Graham or Charlie Hodge, etc.  Or anything ever accomplished by the Lays Chips Piggy.

 

As to Brodeur's career wins...  He played in an era where starting goalies played 45-55 games, and where there were no three point games and shootout wins.  The 70-game goalie only began to reappear a few years after The King retired.  Racking up 100 wins under those circumstances, against the prime Oilers and Flames 20% of your season, with a D corps that most people can't name half of now...  Those are definitely worse conditions than were faced by Lu or Markstrom or Cloutier, all of whom had advantages in at least two of those areas.

 

In all of Brodeur's years with the Canucks, no player in front of him ever scored 100 points.  One player scored 90 once.  In the friggin' 80s.  I honestly don't think Grant Fuhr would have fared much better, or Brodeur much worse, if their positions had been reversed.

 

There is a small handful of goalies that I think you could have substituted for Fuhr in the 1980s, and safely still won at least three of the four Cups the Oilers did.  Offhand, I would say...Mike Liut, Don Beaupre, Tom Barrasso, Moog of course, and Richard Brodeur.  I want to say Billy Smith, but he got old quickly after 1984.  I might be forgetting someone, but that's probably it.  Maybe Pete Peeters.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Kevin Biestra