Kevin Bieksa you are really...

[wallstreetamigo]

"Nah Nah Nah"...lol....loved it! And i'm sure you're real broken up about my fall from intellectual grace...

Anyways, you can argue your case of favourtism, till you're blue in the face...and in the sack.....but, AV puts out those who he feels gives them the best chance at winning games...it's why he put Edler and Ehrhoff out there on the 1st PP and when we're behind. They've earned their substantial offencive minutes and roles.....AV puts Hamhuis/Edler and Bieksa out there because He wants a gritty defenceman out there against top lines, as evidenced by the earned Ice time Bieksa gets with Hammer and Edler. Look, the proof is in the pudding. You can argue from a place of crawling into AV's mind. and i'll argue from a place of what AV does.

And I agree that AV puts dmen on the 3rd pairing with lesser minutes, if they deserve it, or if they are ailing and he's trying to work them back into shape....like he'll most likely do with Juice tonight. But, I'm sure, Juice will be back up in the top 4 relatively soon, because he's EARNED it!

And I know you'll never admit this, because your theory and its fabric simply blows......tee hee.

I don't disagree about what AV thinks. I just question why he thinks it. You saying Bieksa has earned is just your opinion. Mine is that really he has not.

Look at the numbers and how they have played if you think Bieksa has played grittier this season than Ballard has. Not even close. Ballard has been better in his limited time in a shutdown role.

[wallstreetamigo]

So what you're saying is that it's only a matter of time until he costs us, (according to your crystal ball) so your point is valid.

Is that about it?

An oversimplification but a valid point. It has nothing to do with a crystal ball though. Since the type of mistakes and bad decisions have not changed (but they are not as frequent at least), and those mistakes have cost the team before, it is a pretty safe assumption that eventually they will cost the team again.

I thought I explained it pretty well in my post.

[Sharpshooter]

Bieksa has made a lot of the same mistakes and bad decisions this season that he has always made and that have cost the team. The fact that they really haven't come back to haunt him yet is irrelevant because the law of averages suggests they eventually will. The only way to avoid that is to actually stop making those bad decisions. He is better this season, but not so much better that it will not prove costly at some point if AV relies on him too heavily. The past still is a good predictor of the future, even if people don't want to admit that.

So, Bieksa is terrible on the PP because of his linemates being terrible? Typical. Maybe they are terrible because he isn't generating anything there? Isn't that just as likely a possibility? Or is it all on other players when Bieksa doesn't produce? The Canucks PP relies heavily on the D. Bieksa and Rome there for the most part? Yes, no wonder the 2nd unit sucks. Especially Rome though. At least Bieksa has the history of being a decent PP guy and there is a reasonable expectation that he could add something there. Rome is just a mind boggling choice for PP duty. Still, under the supposed AV fairness model, Bieksa does not currently deserve so much PP time.

The direct quote from Bieksa regarding his illnesses:

Lol.....Whaaaaa?

When the hell did he make that statement? All he said is that no one was really producing on the second PP. But, you're the one who made the false connection that "The Bieksa supporters must be using other players as an excuse, for his lack of points on the 2nd PP" just like you make the flase connection that AV plays Bieksa because AV must be playing favourtism....that's the only rational reason.

Pal, you make more bad connections than a drunken Indian operator working for the Calcutta Telephone company!

[RUPERTKBD]

An oversimplification but a valid point. It has nothing to do with a crystal ball though. Since the type of mistakes and bad decisions have not changed (but they are not as frequent at least), and those mistakes have cost the team before, it is a pretty safe assumption that eventually they will cost the team again.

I thought I explained it pretty well in my post.

And I would say that since he has limited the mistakes to about the same amount as anyone else on the defense, the same could be said of any of the 'Nucks' D, so there's not much point in singling Bieksa out.

[Sharpshooter]

I don't disagree about what AV thinks. I just question why he thinks it. You saying Bieksa has earned is just your opinion. Mine is that really he has not.

Look at the numbers and how they have played if you think Bieksa has played grittier this season than Ballard has. Not even close. Ballard has been better in his limited time in a shutdown role.

No, you're not geting it. It's not only my 'pie in the sky' opinion, that Juice has earned more minutes, but it relies on the reality that he is getting the abundance of minutes, in all situations, after we were told by both the coach and the general manager that minutes will go to those that deserve and have earned them.

Your opinion is without any real proof or context, except your dislike for Bieksa.

Ballard, hasn't deserved the minutes over Bieksa so far....that's a reality you'll just have to accept, hopefully, without any excuses of the coach playing favorites....but we both know that won't happen...and Bieksa will never play good enough in your eyes to deserve the minutes he's getting.

[wallstreetamigo]

Lol.....Whaaaaa?

When the hell did he make that statement? All he said is that no one was really producing on the second PP. But, you're the one who made the false connection that "The Bieksa supporters must be using other players as an excuse, for his lack of points on the 2nd PP" just like you make the flase connection that AV plays Bieksa because AV must be playing favourtism....that's the only rational reason.

Pal, you make more bad connections than a drunken Indian operator working for the Calcutta Telephone company!

So what exactly does Bieksa being terrible on the PP have to do with any of the other guys then? I mean, why bring that up unless he is suggesting it as some sort of excuse for Bieksa's terrible play on the PP?

Bieksa does not deserve the PP time he is getting. That is a fact. Unless of course your idea of earning those minutes is 21 games (a full quarter of the season) and over 40 minutes of PP time with 1 assist to show for it. 2nd unit or not, how the hell can anyone say that is deserving of the 3rd most PP time on our D?

[RUPERTKBD]

So what exactly does Bieksa being terrible on the PP have to do with any of the other guys then? I mean, why bring that up unless he is suggesting it as some sort of excuse for Bieksa's terrible play on the PP?

Bieksa does not deserve the PP time he is getting. That is a fact. Unless of course your idea of earning those minutes is 21 games (a full quarter of the season) and over 40 minutes of PP time with 1 assist to show for it. 2nd unit or not, how the hell can anyone say that is deserving of the 3rd most PP time on our D?

I bring it up because the lion's share of the PP time goes to the first unit. The fact that the 2nd unit as a whole is unproductive shows that you are indeed singling Bieksa out. If the #2 unit were getting a ton of points and KB getting none, then your point would be valid.

By your logic, the entire second unit does not deserve their PP time. We know you believe the other KB is the answer on defense, but who else would you slot in there?

[wallstreetamigo]

No, you're not geting it. It's not only my 'pie in the sky' opinion, that Juice has earned more minutes, but it relies on the reality that he is getting the abundance of minutes, in all situations, after we were told by both the coach and the general manager that minutes will go to those that deserve and have earned them.

Your opinion is without any real proof or context, except your dislike for Bieksa.

Ballard, hasn't deserved the minutes over Bieksa so far....that's a reality you'll just have to accept, hopefully, without any excuses of the coach playing favorites....but we both know that won't happen...and Bieksa will never play good enough in your eyes to deserve the minutes he's getting.

Again, your opinion.

You still missed my point. You have no evidence to show that AV does not play favourites at all in your argument, so how can you say I am wrong?

Playing a guy that has both the flu and pneumonia while healthy scratching another guy who has played almost as well in his limited minutes would sure seem to be playing favourites to me.

I just hope Salo comes back and Bieksa is finally traded. His extreme high/extreme low style of play is a recipe for disaster in the playoffs and he has worn out his welcome with some fans because of it. Sure, he gets his points, but his mistakes affect the team negatively far more often than his points tilt the outcome of a game in their favor. Look at the Chicago series last year for proof of that. His lack of production this season makes him entirely overpaid rather than somewhat overpaid when he was at least producing some offense.

The leadership by example provided by Salo will be invaluable. As will his calm demeanor and great defensive positioning and play.

[RUPERTKBD]

Again, your opinion.

You still missed my point. You have no evidence to show that AV does not play favourites at all in your argument, so how can you say I am wrong?

Playing a guy that has both the flu and pneumonia while healthy scratching another guy who has played almost as well in his limited minutes would sure seem to be playing favourites to me.

I just hope Salo comes back and Bieksa is finally traded. His extreme high/extreme low style of play is a recipe for disaster in the playoffs and he has worn out his welcome with some fans because of it. Sure, he gets his points, but his mistakes affect the team negatively far more often than his points tilt the outcome of a game in their favor. Look at the Chicago series last year for proof of that. His lack of production this season makes him entirely overpaid rather than somewhat overpaid when he was at least producing some offense.

The leadership by example provided by Salo will be invaluable. As will his calm demeanor and great defensive positioning and play.

I hope you're right about that, but I think you're placing an awful lot of confidence in a guy who will have been off skates for half a year by the time he returns.

[wallstreetamigo]

I hope you're right about that, but I think you're placing an awful lot of confidence in a guy who will have been off skates for half a year by the time he returns.

Burrows missed 5 months or so as well and many were expecting him to jump right in and save the offense. Did he? No, he took a bit of time to get up to speed.

I expect the same from Salo. It is not impossible to come back from an injury,and Salo has always been remarkably resilient when he comes back. He tends to get back up to game speed quickly.

Granted, this is a bigger injury but hopefully having the luxury of truly taking his time to recover from it before he comes back will offset that to some degree. Also, his hockey smarts will not be affected. He relies on positioning and an innate ability to understand the ramifications of decisions before he even makes them. That is what makes him exceptional defensively. He will still have that and even if his mobility or foot speed are affected negatively, I have no doubt he will find a way to adjust and be a positive factor in spite of it. He always has before and there is no reason at this point to count him out from doing so again.

I have no doubt that if Salo comes back this season he will be in shape to do so. He has already said he will not risk his quality of life after hockey on it.

[tmoney44]

I think he'll get traded the day this thread reaches 300 pages.

[wallstreetamigo]

I bring it up because the lion's share of the PP time goes to the first unit. The fact that the 2nd unit as a whole is unproductive shows that you are indeed singling Bieksa out. If the #2 unit were getting a ton of points and KB getting none, then your point would be valid.

By your logic, the entire second unit does not deserve their PP time. We know you believe the other KB is the answer on defense, but who else would you slot in there?

I think if AV was fair, he would give other players a shot on the 2nd unit. Not just take Bieksa off, but others who are not generating anything as well. I have never said otherwise. Of course, this is a discussion about Bieksa, not the other guys on the unit, so talking about his part in things is probably not so much singling him out as it is staying on topic.

There are other things that could be done. As an example, why not put Kesler back down to the 2nd unit center position and give Burrows a shot with the Sedins on the PP. i

I don't have any idea definitively who the answer is nor have I ever said I do. Do I think it makes sense to give Ballard a chance to see if he is a possible answer to the 2nd unit's woes? Yes, why wouldn't I? Or for that matter, why wouldn't you? He is the only D with significant PP experience who has been given no time on the PP yet. Can his production be much worse than what the team is getting now? That would be hard to do.

So I am not saying Ballard is the answer. Only that he is the only one who could be an answer who never gets a chance to prove he is or he isn't. Something needs to be done. maybe he would be a spark they need. There is no way of knowing unless AV actually tries it.

I suppose that comment is somehow unfair as well right?

[Sharpshooter]

Again, your opinion.

You still missed my point. You have no evidence to show that AV does not play favourites at all in your argument, so how can you say I am wrong?

Playing a guy that has both the flu and pneumonia while healthy scratching another guy who has played almost as well in his limited minutes would sure seem to be playing favourites to me.

I just hope Salo comes back and Bieksa is finally traded. His extreme high/extreme low style of play is a recipe for disaster in the playoffs and he has worn out his welcome with some fans because of it. Sure, he gets his points, but his mistakes affect the team negatively far more often than his points tilt the outcome of a game in their favor. Look at the Chicago series last year for proof of that. His lack of production this season makes him entirely overpaid rather than somewhat overpaid when he was at least producing some offense.

The leadership by example provided by Salo will be invaluable. As will his calm demeanor and great defensive positioning and play.

How can I prove that which does not exist?? It's like asking me to prove that Pink Unicorns do not exist. So, because I can't prove they don't exist, it must give credibility to their existence??? What kind of fracked up logic is that??

There isn't this 'favourtism' that you keep delusionaly referring to.....it's all in your head, homeslice.

And he played with the flu...like most hockey players do....he didn't play with pneumonia, he sat out and hasn't played since because there were no games. He's been recovering for over a week now! And he's been cleared by competent medical doctors...who know a thing or two about a player's health and when they are fit to play. His ice time will obviously be managed until, he's 100% again. That's why he'll most likely start on the third pairing.

[wallstreetamigo]

How can I prove that which does not exist?? It's like asking me to prove that Pink Unicorns do not exist. So, because I can't prove they don't exist, it must give credibility to their existence??? What kind of fracked up logic is that??

There isn't this 'favourtism' that you keep delusionaly referring to.....it's all in your head, homeslice.

And he played with the flu...like most hockey players do....he didn't play with pneumonia, he sat out and hasn't played since because there were no games. He's been recovering for over a week now! And he's been cleared by competent medical doctors...who know a thing or two about a player's health and when they are fit to play. His ice time will obviously be managed until, he's 100% again. That's why he'll most likely start on the third pairing.

So, because in your mind I can't prove favouritism by AV, that means it doesn't exist? Works both ways, homeslice.....

Ask Hodgson how competent the Canucks doctors are....

[Sharpshooter]

So, because in your mind I can't prove favouritism by AV, that means it doesn't exist? Works both ways, homeslice.....

Ask Hodgson how competent the Canucks doctors are....

See...that's the thing....you've asserted a positive argument, that being that there IS favourtism. Therefore, you have the onus to prove it. I cannot prove something that I assert doesn't exist. Do you see the difference? It would be like if I said there are gnomes living under my bed....you'd say pics please, and i'd have to show you pics to prove my assertion. I cannot just turn around and say well, prove they're not there!

And, i suspect you're just being a cheeky little bugger by bringing up Cody's situation. I hope you're not generalising the team doctor's ability or credibility based on one incident that wasn't really in his(team doctor's) hands but in the hands of a the back specialist that the organisation hired.

[RUPERTKBD]

I think if AV was fair, he would give other players a shot on the 2nd unit. Not just take Bieksa off, but others who are not generating anything as well. I have never said otherwise. Of course, this is a discussion about Bieksa, not the other guys on the unit, so talking about his part in things is probably not so much singling him out as it is staying on topic.

There are other things that could be done. As an example, why not put Kesler back down to the 2nd unit center position and give Burrows a shot with the Sedins on the PP. i

I don't have any idea definitively who the answer is nor have I ever said I do. Do I think it makes sense to give Ballard a chance to see if he is a possible answer to the 2nd unit's woes? Yes, why wouldn't I? Or for that matter, why wouldn't you? He is the only D with significant PP experience who has been given no time on the PP yet. Can his production be much worse than what the team is getting now? That would be hard to do.

So I am not saying Ballard is the answer. Only that he is the only one who could be an answer who never gets a chance to prove he is or he isn't. Something needs to be done. maybe he would be a spark they need. There is no way of knowing unless AV actually tries it.

I suppose that comment is somehow unfair as well right?

Fair points.

In response I'd say that other players have been given an opportunity on the PP, with less than overwhelming results. In the final analysis, somebody has to play on the second unit, and I believe the coaching staff (not just AV) consider the guys currently playing there give the team the best chance to score.

Certainly, when and if Salo returns, he is a much better fit on the PP than Bieksa. Ballard may or may not be. I confess to only following his progress slightly after he left Phoenix. (although I did say at the time that the 'Yotes would regret trading him)

I'm honestly wondering though, who manned the point when Bieksa was out?

Finally, in response to your final paragraph: Do you really feel "something must be done"? I agree the #2 unit isn't doing much, but the team still has the best PP in the league. How dire is the situation, really?

[wallstreetamigo]

See...that's the thing....you've asserted a positive argument, that being that there IS favourtism. Therefore, you have the onus to prove it. I cannot prove something that I assert doesn't exist. Do you see the difference? It would be like if I said there are gnomes living under my bed....you'd say pics please, and i'd have to show you pics to prove my assertion. I cannot just turn around and say well, prove they're not there!

And, i suspect you're just being a cheeky little bugger by bringing up Cody's situation. I hope you're not generalising the team doctor's ability or credibility based on one incident that wasn't really in his(team doctor's) hands but in the hands of a the back specialist that the organisation hired.

Okay, split hairs if you must.

Can you then please provide proof of your positive argument that Bieksa has earned his playing time this season. Saying AV thinks so or alluding to the fact that he has got that ice time is not proof considering it cannot be separated from any potential favouritism by AV. Prove with his play and his play alone what he has done to deserve it. Leave AV out of it.

Specifically come up with your stats and your examples of what he has done better than Ballard, Alberts, and even Rome to definitively be the 4th dman on this team. Also explain what he has done on the PP that makes him the only logical choice to play there.

[wallstreetamigo]

Fair points.

In response I'd say that other players have been given an opportunity on the PP, with less than overwhelming results. In the final analysis, somebody has to play on the second unit, and I believe the coaching staff (not just AV) consider the guys currently playing there give the team the best chance to score.

Certainly, when and if Salo returns, he is a much better fit on the PP than Bieksa. Ballard may or may not be. I confess to only following his progress slightly after he left Phoenix. (although I did say at the time that the 'Yotes would regret trading him)

I'm honestly wondering though, who manned the point when Bieksa was out?

Finally, in response to your final paragraph: Do you really feel "something must be done"? I agree the #2 unit isn't doing much, but the team still has the best PP in the league. How dire is the situation, really?

Again, the only point was that if the situation was reversed and Ballard was sucking wind on the 2nd unit while Bieksa got no PP time, would you guys feel the same about it being time for a change or would you feel different? I would feel exactly the same as I do about the situation now.

I do feel something must be done with the 2nd unit and here is why. Yes, they are the #1 PP right now and that is great. Does that mean that they should stop trying to be better all the time? That is an issue that has plagued this team for years. They get just far enough ahead to get comfortable and then they attempt to slide by refusing to fix issues until it is too late. Would you rather have them try to fix the 2nd unit now while things are going well with the 1st unit or after the 1st unit starts slumping? I know which I choose.

I think they only had one PP against SJ and Rome was out there with Hamhuis for the tail end of it I believe. I could be wrong. I know they didn't get more than a couple of PP at the most though.

[Sharpshooter]

Okay, split hairs if you must.

Can you then please provide proof of your positive argument that Bieksa has earned his playing time this season. Saying AV thinks so or alluding to the fact that he has got that ice time is not proof considering it cannot be separated from any potential favouritism by AV. Prove with his play and his play alone what he has done to deserve it. Leave AV out of it.

Specifically come up with your stats and your examples of what he has done better than Ballard, Alberts, and even Rome to definitively be the 4th dman on this team. Also explain what he has done on the PP that makes him the only logical choice to play there.

Brother....My argument has always been that the TOI Beiksa receives is proof that he has earned it. I cannot crawl into AV's head and give you his subjective reasonings as to what the criteria he uses to evaluate and reward players. The fact that he gives that time though is inherent proof!

It's like asking me to prove the sky is blue without looking up and saying "look". Some proofs are inherent, my friend. Bieksa's total TOI ahead of other Dmen is inherent proof of the coach deeming him worthy of it. What's hard to understand about that?

[wallstreetamigo]

Brother....My argument has always been that the TOI Beiksa receives is proof that he has earned it. I cannot crawl into AV's head and give you his subjective reasonings as to what the criteria he uses to evaluate and reward players. The fact that he gives that time though is inherent proof!

It's like asking me to prove the sky is blue without looking up and saying "look". Some proofs are inherent, my friend. Bieksa's total TOI ahead of other Dmen is inherent proof of the coach deeming him worthy of it. What's hard to understand about that?

And if that coach is playing favourites, then your whole theory is blown out of the water.

As I said, leave AV out of it. What have you seen on the ice and what statistics back up your claim in comparison to other dmen on the team?