Kevin Bieksa you are really...

[RUPERTKBD]

Again, the only point was that if the situation was reversed and Ballard was sucking wind on the 2nd unit while Bieksa got no PP time, would you guys feel the same about it being time for a change or would you feel different? I would feel exactly the same as I do about the situation now.

That would depend. If Bieksa was coming off of off-season surgery and a recent concussion, probably not.

[wallstreetamigo]

That would depend. If Bieksa was coming off of off-season surgery and a recent concussion, probably not.

Come on. PP minutes are the easiest minutes on Dmen. You would think he would actually be getting more minutes to get him in the game.

How long did it take for Bieksa to get back on the PP after he returned from his injuries? If someone knows I would be interested to hear if this theory applies all the way around.

[Sharpshooter]

Again, the only point was that if the situation was reversed and Ballard was sucking wind on the 2nd unit while Bieksa got no PP time, would you guys feel the same about it being time for a change or would you feel different? I would feel exactly the same as I do about the situation now.

I do feel something must be done with the 2nd unit and here is why. Yes, they are the #1 PP right now and that is great. Does that mean that they should stop trying to be better all the time? That is an issue that has plagued this team for years. They get just far enough ahead to get comfortable and then they attempt to slide by refusing to fix issues until it is too late. Would you rather have them try to fix the 2nd unit now while things are going well with the 1st unit or after the 1st unit starts slumping? I know which I choose.

I think they only had one PP against SJ and Rome was out there with Hamhuis for the tail end of it I believe. I could be wrong. I know they didn't get more than a couple of PP at the most though.

Honestly, take my word for it. If the situation were reversed, it wouldn't be a big deal to me, because we'd have the #1 PP in the league. I know that the 1st PP gets the bulk of the time and even if the 2nd PP gets less time. It's not that big a deal, tbh. If Juice gets the time or doesn't it's ok with me....as long as he plays well with the time he gets. That's what I hope for and cheer for the most.

[wallstreetamigo]

Honestly, take my word for it. If the situation were reversed, it wouldn't be a big deal to me, because we'd have the #1 PP in the league. I know that the 1st PP gets the bulk of the time and even if the 2nd PP gets less time. It's not that big a deal, tbh. If Juice gets the time or doesn't it's ok with me....as long as he plays well with the time he gets. That's what I hope for and cheer for the most.

As I said, status quo = failure with this team. It happens over and over again. The truly great teams strive to constantly improve, even on their already strong points.

If Bieksa was playing well with the PP time he gets, I would agree with you. But he's not and has not been all season long.

[wallstreetamigo]

So much for your theory of 3rd pairing minutes for Bieksa......favouritism......

[RUPERTKBD]

I do feel something must be done with the 2nd unit and here is why. Yes, they are the #1 PP right now and that is great. Does that mean that they should stop trying to be better all the time? That is an issue that has plagued this team for years. They get just far enough ahead to get comfortable and then they attempt to slide by refusing to fix issues until it is too late. Would you rather have them try to fix the 2nd unit now while things are going well with the 1st unit or after the 1st unit starts slumping? I know which I choose.

Not at all.

However, it is a debatable point as to which is the more effective method of improving. Letting the current crop of players play their way out of their funk, or giving the job to other players whom you didn't think were the best fit in the first place.

[Sharpshooter]

And if that coach is playing favourites, then your whole theory is blown out of the water.

As I said, leave AV out of it. What have you seen on the ice and what statistics back up your claim in comparison to other dmen on the team?

LOL.....if the argument is about AV playing favourites, how the frack can I leave him out of it???

If the coach is playing favourites, then it's your assertion that he is....so you prove it. And we'll look at your proof versus opinion and then we'll agree or disagree based on the quality of actual proof.

It's not my job to show counter proof before you've even shown actual proof..aside from your opinion. Your opinion isn't proof, not directly nor indirectly.

And to save you a bit of time....is there any source you can give us that show AV saying out loud that he prefers or favours KB over other Dmen? Now that would tangible direct evidence to support your assertion....or if you could provide a source or quote where someone else on the team or organisation said that's what AV does....as that then would at least be indirect proof.

[wallstreetamigo]

Not at all.

However, it is a debatable point as to which is the more effective method of improving. Letting the current crop of players play their way out of their funk, or giving the job to other players whom you didn't think were the best fit in the first place.

If after 21 games we have no one else that the coaches think could do a better job on the 2nd unit or don't want to give others a chance, then that goes against what the coaches have stated and what you guys use to support Bieksa being in the top 4. Namely that players are earning their minutes.

A quarter of the season and we should stay with the status quo? I don't think so.

[RUPERTKBD]

Come on. PP minutes are the easiest minutes on Dmen. You would think he would actually be getting more minutes to get him in the game.

How long did it take for Bieksa to get back on the PP after he returned from his injuries? If someone knows I would be interested to hear if this theory applies all the way around.

You asked a question. I answered. It honestly would make little difference to me, as it does now.

You seem to have me confused with someone who gets upset if someone gets more ice time, PP or PK time than KB. That is not the case. As long as the team (and special teams) are performing well, I am content.

As I have said all along, I am not a Kevin Bieksa "fanboy" as the trolls like to call it. I merely chime in in disagreement when someone makes a claim against him that I happen to disagree with.

In this particular thread, it happens all the time.

[wallstreetamigo]

LOL.....if the argument is about AV playing favourites, how the frack can I leave him out of it???

If the coach is playing favourites, then it's your assertion that he is....so you prove it. And we'll look at your proof versus opinion and then we'll agree or disagree based on the quality of actual proof.

It's not my job to show counter proof before you've even shown actual proof..aside from your opinion. Your opinion isn't proof, not directly nor indirectly.

And to save you a bit of time....is there any source you can give us that show AV saying out loud that he prefers or favours KB over other Dmen? Now that would tangible direct evidence to support your assertion....or if you could provide a source or quote where someone else on the team or organisation said that's what AV does....as that then would at least be indirect proof.

Again, it is not about whether he is playing favorites or not.

I asked for proof of YOUR argument, namely that his play and his stats support that he is earning his ice time. Feel free not to answer though if you have no evidence of that other than AV says so.

As far as evidence, the players who have played for AV and have said so publicly about him have far more credibility in my mind than you do. How's that for proof?

[wallstreetamigo]

You asked a question. I answered. It honestly would make little difference to me, as it does now.

You seem to have me confused with someone who gets upset if someone gets more ice time, PP or PK time than KB. That is not the case. As long as the team (and special teams) are performing well, I am content.

As I have said all along, I am not a Kevin Bieksa "fanboy" as the trolls like to call it. I merely chime in in disagreement when someone makes a claim against him that I happen to disagree with.

In this particular thread, it happens all the time.

I'm not confusing you with anything at all. I am just saying that if the standards aren't applied across the board, it implies favouritism.

[Sharpshooter]

Again, it is not about whether he is playing favorites or not.

I asked for proof of YOUR argument, namely that his play and his stats support that he is earning his ice time. Feel free not to answer though if you have no evidence of that other than AV says so.

As far as evidence, the players who have played for AV and have said so publicly about him have far more credibility in my mind than you do. How's that for proof?

You don't fracking get it!!!

You are the one talking this Favourtism nonsense...so you are the one who has to make his case.....it's your onus to. My rebuttal was no there isn't, or I disagree, essentialy. You believe that it's true, you prove it. That's how things work. You asserted, now you prove, the person who says they don't believe you, isn't required to bring proof of their non belief.

Prove the favourtism assertion....and who are these "players"??? LOL....that's the weakest evidence i've ever heard. Are you sure it wasn't a freind of a friend's roomate's, aunt's brother in law? Show me this public knowledge. Proof please!

[wallstreetamigo]

You don't fracking get it!!!

You are the one talking this Favourtism nonsense...so you are the one who has to make his case.....it's your onus to. My rebuttal was no there isn't, or I disagree, essentialy. You believe that it's true, you prove it. That's how things work. You asserted, now you prove, the person who says they don't believe you, isn't required to bring proof of their non belief.

Prove the favourtism assertion....and who are these "players"??? LOL....that's the weakest evidence i've ever heard. Are you sure it wasn't a freind of a friend's roomate's, aunt's brother in law? Show me this public knowledge. Proof please!

Shane O'Brien anyone????? Case closed.

[wallstreetamigo]

Do you guys still think the 2nd PP unit doesn't need to get better?

[EmployeeoftheMonth]

Shane O'Brien anyone????? Case closed.

Bad example.

SOB was a whiney $^&#%. It's pretty well documented and his antics mixed with that is what happened to him.

Oh they're telling me to fight...oh Ima shoot guns in da air... oh I'm gunna act like a fool... Oh I never had a chance.

O'Brien worked his ice time and games down all by himself. If you wanna call that favorites then I guess we have very different definitions of the word.

Case very very open. That's not favoritism that's equal treatment for equal effort.

[wallstreetamigo]

Bad example.

SOB was a whiney $^&#%. It's pretty well documented and his antics mixed with that is what happened to him.

Oh they're telling me to fight...oh Ima shoot guns in da air... oh I'm gunna act like a fool... Oh I never had a chance.

O'Brien worked his ice time and games down all by himself. If you wanna call that favorites then I guess we have very different definitions of the word.

Case very very open. That's not favoritism that's equal treatment for equal effort.

Call it what you like. SOB is an actual NHL player who played for AV and had his impression of the man. Are you or Sharpshooter? I know I'm not, so I will take it from a guy who actually knows more than any of us do about what really goes on.

It's still a better example than any one of you guys have come up with to say AV doesn't play favourites.....

Of course, because it is an actual concrete example where a player said it to be true, you immediately discount it as the player is not credible. He is a lot more credible than any of us are.

SOB actually improved a lot last season.

[EmployeeoftheMonth]

Call it what you like. SOB is an actual NHL player who played for AV and had his impression of the man. Are you or Sharpshooter? I know I'm not, so I will take it from a guy who actually knows more than any of us do about what really goes on.

It's still a better example than any one of you guys have come up with to say AV doesn't play favourites.....

Of course, because it is an actual concrete example where a player said it to be true, you immediately discount it as the player is not credible. He is a lot more credible than any of us are.

SOB actually improved a lot last season.

Oh I was in no way talking about his play and rather him himself. He did improve on ice last season but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

The problem is he is an actual NHL player and is well known as a world class moron with his antics. He also has a history of whining when things don't go his way. Things didn't go his way because of who is is and what he does, so he whined.

However if you want to look at a real NHLer why not look at Linden who said he was one of the best. The same Linden who everyone thought got screwed over by AV because he wasn't getting ice time and was scratched for several games. SO a player who gets all that done to him still says AV is one of the best and he makes his players accountable?

Who ya gonna listen to? Shane "bang bang" O'Brien or Trevor "hi I am the canucks" Linden? Who's more credible?

[wallstreetamigo]

Oh I was in no way talking about his play and rather him himself. He did improve on ice last season but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

The problem is he is an actual NHL player and is well known as a world class moron with his antics. He also has a history of whining when things don't go his way. Things didn't go his way because of who is is and what he does, so he whined.

However if you want to look at a real NHLer why not look at Linden who said he was one of the best. The same Linden who everyone thought got screwed over by AV because he wasn't getting ice time and was scratched for several games. SO a player who gets all that done to him still says AV is one of the best and he makes his players accountable?

Who ya gonna listen to? Shane "bang bang" O'Brien or Trevor "hi I am the canucks" Linden? Who's more credible?

When did Linden say that AV doesn't play favourites? I have never seen that quote anywhere. Do you have a source where he specifically says he doesn't play favourites?

Linden would never say anything even if he thought AV played favourites, and we both know it.

And your second paragraph is complete conjecture. Unless you are someone who has first hand knowledge of their relationship, you can't really state it as a fact. You also have no idea if he actually had something worth "whining" about as you put it.

[Sharpshooter]

Call it what you like. SOB is an actual NHL player who played for AV and had his impression of the man. Are you or Sharpshooter? I know I'm not, so I will take it from a guy who actually knows more than any of us do about what really goes on.

It's still a better example than any one of you guys have come up with to say AV doesn't play favourites.....

Of course, because it is an actual concrete example where a player said it to be true, you immediately discount it as the player is not credible. He is a lot more credible than any of us are.

SOB actually improved a lot last season.

O'Brien admitted he made mistakes in Vancouver and said it was entirely his fault that he slept in and was late for practice last March after a night out. But he said his transgressions were made worse by coach Alain Vigneault.

"This whole Roxy myth - my first year in Vancouver I did hang out there a little too much," O'Brien said. "Obviously, there's a lot of things I would have done differently.

"But the thing that really made me upset is you look around an organization and there's always stuff that goes on during the year, and they try to keep it behind closed doors. With me, AV just went right to the press and buried me and that made it worse. Everything else that happens on that team, they try to keep internal. But when he had a chance to bury me in the media, he did. He never seemed to have my back. I'd by lying if I said I thought I had a chance with him from Day 1."

"I knew I was in trouble," he said. "I wish I got a little fairer shake in camp. I only played three exhibition games, all on the road, and we flew the day of the game on two of them. And - no disrespect to the players we had in those games - but the three games I played we were nowhere near an NHL-calibre roster. It was the icing on the cake for my career here in Vancouver.

"Last year, I stepped up when we had some injuries and helped our team win the division, and I thought I played with a lot of heart in the playoffs. Every time there was an injury, I'd play well. And when [the injured player] came back, I'd go right back to the bottom of the barrel. It's tough to play in this league when you know if you have a bad night, you're going to the press box. After two years, it was still the same thing. No matter what I did, I didn't seem to stand a chance with that guy."

General manager Mike Gillis said O'Brien was given the chance to improve and earn playing time in Vancouver.

"He had his opportunity to come here and make the team and other players played better than him," Gillis told reporters. "We didn't go into this with any predetermined ideas.

"We thought there was a lot of upside with Shane. But we can only do so much in trying to develop players and do the best we can, and at certain points I think Shane needed to try and mature a little bit and get better."

"That dressing room is full of great guys," O'Brien said. "The organization is first class all the way. Fans in Vancouver were great to me. But if you're being realistic, there was never any chance I was going to move up [the depth chart] as long as the coaching staff stayed intact. I think it was time for a change."

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Shane+Brien+fires+parting+shot+Canucks+coach+Vigneault/3628598/story.html

So please point out where O'Brien calls out AV for playing favorites!?

[EmployeeoftheMonth]

When did Linden say that AV doesn't play favourites? I have never seen that quote anywhere. Do you have a source where he specifically says he doesn't play favourites?

And your second paragraph is complete conjecture. Unless you are someone who has first hand knowledge of their relationship, you can't really state it as a fact. You also have no idea if he actually had something worth "whining" about as you put it.

He said it on global morning news. I'm sure you can find it on youtube.

My second paragraph is just as must conjecture as yours really. Everything I said about O'Brien is based on what he did...publicly. He did whine that he wasn't getting ice time because he wouldn't fight. He did whine when he wasn't offered a contract and was off the team. Seems like a whiny little crybaby to me. What would you objectively call it?

Your point isn't bad but you need to turn it around on your arguement as well. You have proof AV actually plays favorites? I know I know you have SOB but do you have anything else because as I stated that simply isn't good enough given his history of being an ass. Need proof of him being an ass too? How about the Roxy? How about "bang bang"? There was a reason he wasn't a "favorite" as you put it and it's all on him. If AV plays favorites you gotta think several players would have said something right? There's been a lot of player turnover in AV's tenure and I'm not just talking about Bieksa. (Little joke for hank&dan there)

Edit: Just to touch on your edit. Well you get a pass for a terrible arguement here because you haven't seen it but Linden wasn't asked about AV he was asked who his favorite coach to play for was.