Tortorella vs. Vigneault What has changed

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

If you asked Rangers fans in October what they thought of their new coach, they'd have told you Vigneault was public enemy No. 1 and should have been fired before he got to coach his first game at MSG. They wanted John Tortorella back. They thought they were sold a bill of goods on Vigneault.

Their reaction was obviously swift and emotional, but the Rangers absolutely were scuffling, especially on the defensive end, to the point that they gave up 20 goals over three road games against the San Jose Sharks, Anaheim Ducks and St. Louis Blues from Oct. 8-12. They opened the season with nine straight road games and went 3-6-0.

But the ghastly goals-against average had as much to do with Henrik Lundqvist's struggles as it did with the Rangers trying to buy into Vigneault's system. Clearly, he didn't forget how to do his job. He's the same coach who took the Vancouver Canucks to Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Final in 2011; the same coach who led the Canucks to the Presidents' Trophy in back-to-back seasons (2010-12).

Hindsight is always 20/20, but what's obvious now should have been talked about earlier in the season -- the Rangers needed time to adjust to Vigneault, who is basically the polar opposite of Tortorella in his demeanor and coaching style.

"Anytime there is a coaching change or management change, it's always going to be a feeling-out process," Rangers forward Derek Dorsett said. "We're playing the way he [Vigneault] wants us to play. If we keep doing that, we'll be fine."

The Rangers improved after the nine-game road trip, got above .500 by the midway point (20-19-2), and then went 12-5-1 and allowed 2.12 goals per game in 17 games from Jan. 3 until the NHL went on break for the 2014 Sochi Olympics.

The Rangers slumped earlier this month, but picked it right back up and have won four in a row and five of their past six games, including a 4-3 come-from-behind, overtime victory against the Phoenix Coyoteson Monday.

Lundqvist has gotten much better and is again playing the way he did for years under Tom Renney and Tortorella. The defense as a whole got tighter and more disciplined in front of him as the Rangers adopted a swarming, pressuring, quick-transition style.

It helped that Vigneault found four lines that worked and has been rolling them with minimal changes, something that rarely happened under Tortorella. Until recently, their power play was among the best in the NHL; it was among the worst under Tortorella.

"We got to know him, and he got to know us," Rangers center Derick Brassard said. "I guess we just bought in to the way he wanted us to play. We play well as a team. If you do that for the rest of the season, we're going to have some success."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=711107&navid=DL|NHL|home

The original article compares flyers coach and AV but it also had some interesting insight into AV vs Torts. I think it's too early to tell who's better since it's only been a year and Tort's has had way too many injuries to deal with but from an optics stand point, it looks like AV is so far but that can change.

[TheRussianRocket.]

Sigh, redundant and beating up a dead horse but let me explain a bit if you don't know:

- Torts isn't letting our players be soft. He is holding them accountable for what they do and is making them tough, the opposite of AV who as we can all see has made our core players from before teddy bears who are very mentally fragile b/c they haven't been exposed to taking onus for their actions.

- AV's time was up anyways. Greatest coach in our teams history yea but time was over. He lost the locker room and whatever he said went through one ear of the players and out the other. Hard to listen to the same thing over and over again for 5+ years and play at a high level thus why players seemed to have zoned him out.

- Torts plays youngsters. This is key. AV did develop a bunch of our players don't get me wrong but he also made a lot of blunders. He doesn't really develop youngsters the traditional way and puts most of them through his doghouse before letting them play. He did develop Kes and Edler and etc but problem was with our core, AV was too scared to break it apart and didn't want youngsters in spite of that. With the core past it's prime now, it's key for youngsters to step up and help the core like how the Sharks have done and Torts has done an excellent job thus far. Schroeder, Kassian, Jensen, Lack, Archibald etc, he's given them all a chance.

- could give more reasons but I think this is enough...

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

Sigh, redundant and beating up a dead horse but let me explain a bit if you don't know:

- Torts isn't letting our players be soft. He is holding them accountable for what they do and is making them tough, the opposite of Torts who as we can all see has made our core players from before teddy bears who are very mentally fragile b/c they haven't been exposed to taking onus for their actions.

- AV's time was up anyways. Greatest coach in our teams history yea but time was over. He lost the locker room and whatever he said went through one ear of the players and out the other. Hard to listen to the same thing over and over again for 5+ years and play at a high level thus why players seemed to have zoned him out.

- Torts plays youngsters. This is key. AV did develop a bunch of our players don't get me wrong but he also made a lot of blunders. He doesn't really develop youngsters the traditional way and puts most of them through his doghouse before letting them play. He did develop Kes and Edler and etc but problem was with our core, AV was too scared to break it apart and didn't want youngsters in spite of that. With the core past it's prime now, it's key for youngsters to step up and help the core like how the Sharks have done and Torts has done an excellent job thus far. Schroeder, Kassian, Jensen, Lack, Archibald etc, he's given them all a chance.

- could give more reasons but I think this is enough...

It will take at least one or two more years to find the answer but Tort's definately develops our prospects better that's for sure

[TOMapleLaughs]

Coaching is overrated. The Rangers struggled when Lundqvist did. The Canucks are stuggling because the Sedins are.

The 'best coaches' always seem to have the best players. This is not a coincidence.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

Coaching is overrated. The Rangers struggled when Lundqvist did. The Canucks are stuggling because the Sedins are.

The 'best coaches' always seem to have the best players. This is not a coincidence.

like the oilers

[TOMapleLaughs]

Not even the mighty Babcock can get his team performing at an elite level with all his injuries.

Trotz is regarded as an excellent coach, but hasn't ever done anything significant with his so-so Nashville lineup.

Meanwhile, Roy comes in as Colorado's kids are starting to mature, but he gets a ton of credit for the improvement.

Same with Boudreau in Anaheim. When he came in they were 'meh', but now that they brought in a bunch of maturing kids, omgz.

Anytime I hear a player say 'oh we've come together and listen to our coach and that's why blah blah blah' I think 'lip service'. What's really happening is that the players themselves are just playing better, or just playing, period. Injuries in a parity league are ultra-significant.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

Not even the mighty Babcock can get his team performing at an elite level with all his injuries.

Trotz is regarded as an excellent coach, but hasn't ever done anything significant with his so-so Nashville lineup.

Meanwhile, Roy comes in as Colorado's kids are starting to mature, but he gets a ton of credit for the improvement.

Same with Boudreau in Anaheim. When he came in they were 'meh', but now that they brought in a bunch of maturing kids, omgz.

Anytime I hear a player say 'oh we've come together and listen to our coach and that's why blah blah blah' I think 'lip service'. What's really happening is that the players themselves are just playing better, or just playing, period. Injuries in a parity league are ultra-significant.

Chicagos coaching change in 08/09

Dallas's coaching change this year

Colarado's coaching this year

all prove otherwise

[TOMapleLaughs]

How so? Their lineups all improved.

[higgyfan]

Too early to say. You can't deny the success that AV had with the team, but Torts has hardly had a chance to do much.

I wonder what this season would have been like with AV as the coach, although I believe many of the factors that led to the slump were not related to Torts.

In the end, it doesn't matter who the coach is if Gillis doesn't make the necessary changes to put this team back into contention.

[TOMapleLaughs]

I guess what i'm saying is that AV would not have changed the fortunes of this team this season. They've been sliding for years and the cliffdrop, combined with the decline of their franchise players, was inevitable.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

How so? Their lineups all improved.

Congrats on your 30,000th post

anyways the if you think adding one or two players to our line up (unless they are crosby) turn us into a winning team look no further than the oilers. Coaching does matter.

[5Fivehole0]

Claude Julien won the Stanley Cup. Not the goonery of the Bruins, Claude Julien.

Everyone forgets that Chara was used to constantly shut down the Sedin twins, and would step on the ice the moment they did. AV had no answer to this.

Tortorella did. John out coached Claude earlier this year and beat Boston 6-2. I know the score was a little inflated but he essentially made Claude waste his best D-man that game, until he played Chara against Higgins/Kesler/Santo. Next shift, the Sedins came out, dominated the line they were playing against and scored.

Little things like that is what separates good coaches from great coaches. AV is a VERY good coach, but I believe the talent here carried him and made him look like a great coach.

Torts will show you what a great team can do next season. I believe MG or whomever is GM will make the necessary signins/trades to make this team a contender again. Fans will see them finish in the top 3 of their division, and make a huge splash in the play-offs.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

I guess what i'm saying is that AV would not have changed the fortunes of this team this season. They've been sliding for years and the cliffdrop, combined with the decline of their franchise players, was inevitable.

Never said AV was better(said above only time will tell) but the slide sure sped up when torts came.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

Claude Julien won the Stanley Cup. Not the goonery of the Bruins, Claude Julien.

Everyone forgets that Chara was used to constantly shut down the Sedin twins, and would step on the ice the moment they did. AV had no answer to this.

Tortorella did. John out coached Claude earlier this year and beat Boston 6-2. I know the score was a little inflated but he essentially made Claude waste his best D-man that game, until he played Chara against Higgins/Kesler/Santo. Next shift, the Sedins came out, dominated the line they were playing against and scored.

Little things like that is what separates good coaches from great coaches. AV is a VERY good coach, but I believe the talent here carried him and made him look like a great coach.

Torts will show you what a great team can do next season. I believe MG or whomever is GM will make the necessary signins/trades to make this team a contender again. Fans will see them finish in the top 3 of their division, and make a huge splash in the play-offs.

Against a AHL Boston team.

If you want to bring up torts doing well talk about december in general.

[stawns]

It will take at least one or two more years to find the answer but Tort's definately develops our prospects better that's for sure

huh? Why do you say that? Because Jensen has played well since coming up from Utica and Kassian had a big game? JT has absolutely nothing to do with any of the youth on the team. I'm not saying he won't, but he hasn't really even had a chance to do anything with any prospects.

[5Fivehole0]

Against a AHL Boston team.

If you want to bring up torts doing well talk about december in general.

That is why I said the score was inflated, they had some players with the flu. Regardless, I believe the Canucks would have won that game... The Bruins were still VERY competitive.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

huh? Why do you say that? Because Jensen has played well since coming up from Utica and Kassian had a big game? JT has absolutely nothing to do with any of the youth on the team. I'm not saying he won't, but he hasn't really even had a chance to do anything with any prospects.

he is giving them more chances do you really think AV would put Jensen on the first line right from his call up?

[stawns]

I guess what i'm saying is that AV would not have changed the fortunes of this team this season. They've been sliding for years and the cliffdrop, combined with the decline of their franchise players, was inevitable.

I'm a big AV fan, as he is a great systems coach, but I agree with you on this. I can't stand JT and I hope he's gone, as he is the wrong coach for this organization and he does hold a lot of the responsibility for this season, but the team has been declining for the last three years and one man stood back and let it happen.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

That is why I said the score was inflated, they had some players with the flu. Regardless, I believe the Canucks would have won that game... The Bruins were still VERY competitive.

Rask had a bad game for that exact reason

[TOMapleLaughs]

Never said AV was better(said above only time will tell) but the slide sure sped up when torts came.

It's fine though, as it forces this team to quit pretending they're contenders.

If you're blaming Torts for an accelerated slide, doesn't that mean you're saying AV is technically better?

I've actually made a thread on this before. That Torts' deployment of the Sedins was flawed. They were better when they were more sheltered. But at the end of the day the Sedins need to be able to get it done unsheltered or they're not going to get it done. We could improve depth to help them and Kesler out, but hey that's down the road, if at all.