Niederreiter's hit on Burrows

[Baggins]

You want the players protected Deb? How about they play all 82 games in the All-star fashion: no hitting. Where's player protection with the hip check? The player flips out of control and can easily go head first into the ice. Do we need to take slapshots out of the game because they've caused numerous injuries? Players have also been severely cut by skates so maybe we need to have them play on dull rounded blades. Fighting also needs to be eliminated as they're wailing away at each others heads. We have the league leader for fighting majors on our team and I haven't seen you once speak out against intentional bare knuckle bashing to the skull in the name of player safety. Just how far does your concern for player safety go Deb? These points may seem ridiculous but they all do concern players safety and the injuries that do happen in the game as a result.

If you want blows the head eliminated you will take out all hits other than shoulder to shoulder. Even shoulder to shoulder would have to be limited to little more than a bump because a full speed hit could still result in head contact. You say you want hitting to be part of the game. So explain to me how you can deliver a hit to the front of a player who is leaning forward as he skates without any chance of the risk of contact with his head.

I still maintain they are consistent in their current application of the rule. If the hit is into the core of the body the hit is legal regardless of contact to the head. If the hit picks the head and isn't focused into the core of the body then the head itself is being targeted and results in suspension. Into the core of the body good, not into the core of the body bad. That's the consistency and it pretty black and white. It's not that difficult to determine whether or not the hit was into the core of the body or not. It's far more difficult to determine intentional or accidental.

[poetica]

The way the league is enforcing the rule is not whether or not the head was contacted but how and why it's contacted. If a player is skating forward he will be also leaning forward. This means virtually any hit from the front, or any angle from front, will very likely result in contact with the head. They are allowing those hits. What they are not allowing is cutting straight across the front of a player and picking the head with little or none of the force directed to the core of the body. It's the difference between going for a full body check and simply targeting the head. The videos I've watched are consistent in this ruling. The three you've mentioned are consistent with this ruling. Anybody with an ounce of objectivity can see the difference between hitting into the core of the body and picking the head. They describe the difference quite well in the suspension videos even giving an explanation of what would have made the hits legal. I don't know how much more consistent they could possibly get than that.

I'll guess that it hasn't occurred you at all that the two who were knocked to the ice was the result of those hits being into the core of the body while the hit on Hertl wasn't. If you can't tell whether a hit is into the core of the body or not I really have to wonder what you've been watching. It sure hasn't been full contact hockey. Full impact into a persons body is pretty obvious. Yes, all three had contact to the head. Two had full on contact to the body and one didn't. One of these is not like the others and it's the one that got the suspension.

I understand the league is claiming to take into account how and why the head is contacted, but pretending to understand the motives or intentions of some players leaves far too much room for their own biased interpretation. Why, for example, is Edler guilty of the head contact despite not doing anything to target the head but the other 2 guys weren't despite knowingly raising their body position as forbidden by the rule? In all 3 cases some head contact and some body contact was made. It's only their interpretation of the why that allowed them to declare some hits legal and others suspendable.

Again, just because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm not being objective and just because you agree with the NHL doesn't mean you are. I'm sure you're trying to look at things as objective just as I am, we just seem to disagree. That's not a lack of objectivity on my part.

And no, it didn't occur to me that those other 2 hits resulting in the person being knocked down was proof of them being hit to the core of the body for a couple of reasons. 1) I watch hockey and see hard body checks that don't send a player sprawling to the ice practically every game. 2) Because I know that Koivu ended up on the ice because he was unconscious. That's not really something that tends to happen with a legal body check and is far more likely indicative of a head hit.

EDIT to add: And look at the video again. There was very clearly significant body contact with Hertl. I've had "adult time" with far less contact! lol You're making it sound as if Edler hit him in the head and then skated away. That's not what happened.

I also know that the NHL says that everyone has a responsibility to not knowingly put themselves in a vulnerable position, which Hertl did. Edler had every right to his position on the ice. They were both going for the puck and Edler has the right to skate in a direct line to it. Hertl, seeing that Edler was in front of him and going for the puck, had a responsibility to raise his body position to make legal contact possible. He choose not to. That does not make it Edler's fault.

Furthermore, pretending that having a different angle that makes it appear there's more body contact does not make it true. Consider the Nolan hit on Klesla. The position of the person being hit is nearly identical. The only difference is the camera angle wasn't so perfect that you could see all of the open space between their hips. What we can see, however, is that Nolan raises up just before the hit and then launches up off his skates into the hit to target the head, causing in head and neck injuries.

To me, that's the perfect picture of the NHL's definition of consistency.

[-DLC-]

That's the thing \deb, there is no possible way to eliminate shots to the head, no matter how much punishment is doled out. It's the nature of a contact sport. Hits at that speed, with players that big and that skilled means that there will be checks that contact the head and consequently, head injuries. These players are well paid, they know the risks when they decide they want to play high level hockey.

That's not to say they shouldn't crack down on blatant shots where the head is targeted and is the sole point of impact, but there's nothing they can do to stop the incidental contact.

Nonsense. What's stopping them?

When you run an organization you make the rules ... of course they "can". They can't completely prevent headshots from happening, but they can apply rules that say "well, sorry, you contacted the head and we're trying to protect from head injury". Every single one, without exception. Doesn't have to be drastic - but something that doesn't allow for any headshot to go unnoticed, no matter how or why it happened.

And I've explained how. Why "can't" they? Incidental like Kass. They did it then. You have to be responsible for your stick, so he was punished. Same deal: "we know you didn't mean to and it was not intentional, but you connected with the head - 1 game". Nothing harsh. And no one's to blame, it's just part of making sure head shots - every single stinking one of them intentional or not, are addressed.

As long as you use adverbs and adjectives and subjective measures to deal with important issues, there will remain grey areas. It will be wishy washy.

I don't even necessarily WANT them to (address head shots)...but they opened this can of worms and for the right reasons so I accept it. This is how it has to be.

But they've dealt heavy handedly with some. Based on someone's decision. That makes it an unlevel playing field. In a league where some teams are favoured more than others, it's bogus. Bush league. Beer league.

The NHL is the one out there addressing "headshots" - not me.

And, in doing so, they're missing the mark because they're still a problem and will continue to be. Pick and choose is not the answer because that's open to human error and bias. Agendas and ongoing grudges.

But I don't intend on trying to convince some of you any further...it seems that most do feel they're failing and that, in itself, speaks volumes.

The league will also tell you they're doing what they can. You buy that, I don't - that's all.

So Baggins, quit throwing out "you want Deb" crap. I've told you I don't necessarily....as hard as you try to tell me what the league wants/does/doesn't do, you can't speak for me.

You make it dramatic, like Deb's trying to kill hockey and make it knitting.

Deb simply WANTS the league to do what they say they're doing. Protect players from headshots. They're currently failing, miserably.

And if, by your declaration, they "can't" - that's ok too. Just don't say you can/are and use that to severely punish some. All or nothing, not this wishy washy crap they're/you're trying to feed us.

Anyhow, done here. My mission is not to garner your approval.

[Batmania]

I wonder how most people here are feeling about the Orpik hit on Toews last night? If that hit happens to a Canucks we most certainly would have a thread about it.

Perhaps the problem is our interpretation more than anything else? Are we willing to concede that as a possibility?

[stawns]

I wonder how most people here are feeling about the Orpik hit on Toews last night? If that hit happens to a Canucks we most certainly would have a thread about it.

Perhaps the problem is our interpretation more than anything else? Are we willing to concede that as a possibility?

As I said earlier, it's a close comparable to the NN hit on Burrows. Square, full body contact with incidental contact to the head. Tough hit, but absolutely clean

[Absent Canuck]

Save the sanctimony. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm not being objective. Nor does it justify your changing position. The NHL, not me, said that, "Hertl's reaction to this hit -- getting spun rather than getting driven into the direction Edler was travelling" was proof of a head hit. You can try to dance around that all you want, but it won't change their actual words.

And maybe you should check the videos again. Edler didn't actually "hit" Hertl, but rather took position in front of Hertl to allow Hertl's own forward momentum to propel him into Edler.

Notice that Edler is in front of Hertl. Notice that Edler is clearly moving forward, not into Hertl. Notice that Edler's shoulders are low and he is not leaning towards Hertl. Also notice that Hertl's hand is actually the first part of his body to make contact with Edler, who clearly has his hip thrust out to pick the lower part of his body to make a clean check.

Also, notice that Hertl's head is already turned sideways, showing that his head isn't moved by the contact with Edler.

Hertl continues his forward momentum not because Edler hit him in the head (which would have caused his head to change directions noticeable at the point of contact), but because he simply ran into Edler who was already in that position on the ice. And if you look very closely, you can very clearly see that the only reason Hertl spins at all is not head contact as the NHL contended, but because Edler's body is pushing the side of Hertl's body, including his shoulder and especially his right leg and the front part of his skate, towards the boards causing the spin.

Compare that to Niederreiter's hit on Burrows.

Notice that Niederreiter is leading with his shoulder and raising his arms through the hit, picking the head. Notice how Burrows' head immediately changes direction at the point of contact and that he is clearly being pushed away from the hit with his head at a faster rate than his shoulder, proving that the head was the principal point of contact. If spinning was going to be used as proof of a head hit, it should be for the hit on Burrows, not the hit on Hertl.

Compare both of those with the Dubinsky hit on Koivu (which knocked him unconscious!) for which Dubinsky was not given any supplementary discipline.

(I know this animation is crappy. You can see the full video here.)

Notice how Koivu's head clearly reacts to the contact immediately and that, like Burrows, his spin is clearly being directed by his head. Also like Niederreiter, you can see Dubinsky raising his shoulder before the hit and raising his arms during the hit. That is certainly more actively picking the head than anything Edler did on the Hertl hit.

In all 3 cases the person being hit got "spun rather than getting driven into the direction [the hitter] was traveling" and yet only 1 case resulted in a suspension and that was the only one where the person did not raise their body position immediately prior to the hit to target the head. That is neither fair nor consistent.

In Shanahans explanation he conviently forgets to mention the puck is right where Edler is skating to. Edler is entitled to go get the puck regardless if Hertl is bearing down on him.

Shannys explanation is that he did not move to hit Hertl square on and claims Edler waited to target the guy in the head. However, the fact is Edler is playing the puck , not Hertl. I am still galled that he somehow missed that.

It should never have been a suspension. In my opinion the worst decision Shanny rendered this year.

[poetica]

I wonder how most people here are feeling about the Orpik hit on Toews last night? If that hit happens to a Canucks we most certainly would have a thread about it.

Perhaps the problem is our interpretation more than anything else? Are we willing to concede that as a possibility?

I haven't seen the Orpik hit but will have to Google it. However, I do think you're right about interpretation being the issue. I just don't believe that the NHL's interpretation is any better than ours and that's the problem.

The NHL makes more than enough money to put a few bucks where their mouth is and hire outside specialists in sports and kinetics to look at hits and make informed and balanced disciplinary decisions based on science rather than interpretation. We all have our firmly held opinions, but (as far as I know), none of us are experts. The NHL could and should be making decisions based on far more expert opinions than what can be found at a fan forum!

[poetica]

In Shanahans explanation he conviently forgets to mention the puck is right where Edler is skating to. Edler is entitled to go get the puck regardless if Hertl is bearing down on him.

Shannys explanation is that he did not move to hit Hertl square on and claims Edler waited to target the guy in the head. However, the fact is Edler is playing the puck , not Hertl. I am still galled that he somehow missed that.

It should never have been a suspension. In my opinion the worst decision Shanny rendered this year.

I've been saying the same thing since the suspension because you're absolutely right. Shanahan just assumed Edler decided to hit Hertl and rather than going for the puck that is literally in front of him when contact is made. Edler was pursuing the puck and had every right to do so. Hertl ran into him as he also pursued the puck and had the obligation to straighten up and protect himself when he knew contact was imminent. So glad to know someone else saw it that way!

[stawns]

I haven't seen the Orpik hit but will have to Google it. However, I do think you're right about interpretation being the issue. I just don't believe that the NHL's interpretation is any better than ours and that's the problem.

The NHL makes more than enough money to put a few bucks where their mouth is and hire outside specialists in sports and kinetics to look at hits and make informed and balanced disciplinary decisions based on science rather than interpretation. We all have our firmly held opinions, but (as far as I know), none of us are experts. The NHL could and should be making decisions based on far more expert opinions than what can be found at a fan forum!

haha, what? Yeah, let's put the power to make those decisions in the hands of people who have never thrown a body check in their lives. You want to take contact out of hockey, that's a great way of doing just that. You guys are all making it sound like the NHL is on the verge of imploding.........this is the cleanest the league has ever been

[Baggins]

Just because the NHL has claimed that the other hits were "squarely through the body" doesn't make it true.

For the love of God, please watch the videos and actually listen to the explanations. It's as plain as can be.

[Batmania]

I haven't seen the Orpik hit but will have to Google it. However, I do think you're right about interpretation being the issue. I just don't believe that the NHL's interpretation is any better than ours and that's the problem.

The NHL makes more than enough money to put a few bucks where their mouth is and hire outside specialists in sports and kinetics to look at hits and make informed and balanced disciplinary decisions based on science rather than interpretation. We all have our firmly held opinions, but (as far as I know), none of us are experts. The NHL could and should be making decisions based on far more expert opinions than what can be found at a fan forum!

I think the league has certain things they look for. I actually think they know exactly what they are doing and they do have people other than just the group of former players that help with these decisions.

We also have to remember this is how the General Managers wanted thing, the competition committee and the NHLPA. This is right from the CBA which both groups created.

6. Factors in Determining Supplementary Discipline

In deciding supplementary discipline, the following factors will be taken into account:

a) the type of conduct involved: conduct outside of NHL rules; excessive force in contact otherwise permitted by NHL rules; and careless or accidental contact. Players are responsible for the consequence of their actions.

Injury to the opposing Player(s) involved in the incident.

c) The status of the offender, and specifically whether he is a "first" or "repeat" offender. Players who repeated violate NHL rules will be more severely punished for each violation.

d) The situation of the game in which the situation occurred: late in the game, lopsided score, prior events in the game.

e) Such other factors as may be appropriate in the circumstances.

All in all there are about 15 people who decide about handing out suspensions.

[-DLC-]

haha, what? Yeah, let's put the power to make those decisions in the hands of people who have never thrown a body check in their lives. You want to take contact out of hockey, that's a great way of doing just that. You guys are all making it sound like the NHL is on the verge of imploding.........this is the cleanest the league has ever been

Bettman played hockey?

[poetica]

haha, what? Yeah, let's put the power to make those decisions in the hands of people who have never thrown a body check in their lives. You want to take contact out of hockey, that's a great way of doing just that. You guys are all making it sound like the NHL is on the verge of imploding.........this is the cleanest the league has ever been

Why would you assume just because someone has a science degree that they never played hockey?

[poetica]

For the love of God, please watch the videos and actually listen to the explanations. It's as plain as can be.

I did. And I still disagree. The only thing plain as can be to me is their inconsistency.

[Batmania]

I did. And I still disagree. The only thing plain as can be to me is their inconsistency.

That's the most important part of what you said and it's something everybody needs to realize.

[Absent Canuck]

I've been saying the same thing since the suspension because you're absolutely right. Shanahan just assumed Edler decided to hit Hertl and rather than going for the puck that is literally in front of him when contact is made. Edler was pursuing the puck and had every right to do so. Hertl ran into him as he also pursued the puck and had the obligation to straighten up and protect himself when he knew contact was imminent. So glad to know someone else saw it that way!

Yes. How does Shanny miss the fact the @#$#@3 puck is right there??? I still get choked thinking about the never ending double standard by the league

/end rant

[Batmania]

Yes. How does Shanny miss the fact the @#$#@3 puck is right there??? I still get choked thinking about the never ending double standard by the league

/end rant

The puck being there didn't really matter. It still should have only been a fine for being careless but the puck doesn't matter.

Also you can't honestly tell me you don't see Edler lean into the hit well before it happened. There's no way you missed that fact.

[stawns]

Why would you assume just because someone has a science degree that they never played hockey?

you know many scientists who played professional hockey? Having played through the WHL and BCHL I played with a lot of professional players and a lot of college players.........of those who went to uni, almost all of them either go into business or education. Most that do go into sciences go into engineering, and most of them don't go on to play in the NHL.

The game will always be better in the hands of those who played it.

[Baggins]

In Shanahans explanation he conviently forgets to mention the puck is right where Edler is skating to. Edler is entitled to go get the puck regardless if Hertl is bearing down on him.

Shannys explanation is that he did not move to hit Hertl square on and claims Edler waited to target the guy in the head. However, the fact is Edler is playing the puck , not Hertl. I am still galled that he somehow missed that.

It should never have been a suspension. In my opinion the worst decision Shanny rendered this year.

Edler gave up on the puck, slowed up and positioned his shoulder to deliver a hit. Go to the 1:05 mark (the above view) and you even see he draws his stick back and tucks his elbow in which is consistent with delivering shoulder check. If he was going for the puck as you claim. he would have reached forward with his stick not drawn it back further away from the puck. This alone makes it clear he was playing the hit as opposed to the puck.

[poetica]

Bettman played hockey?

Exactly! After all, Shanahan "is acting on behalf of the commissioner of the NHL." (source) And he's only the head of the DoPS. Do we know if all of the other members played hockey at all, much less at the NHL level? Plus, did all of the GMs, who write the rules, play hockey? Did all of the refs who are charged with enforcing them play hockey? If that's the only standard, many of the people making decisions in the NHL would need to be fired.