chrisbanks Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I'll say the hunger to win. Loyalty is commendable, but I have more respect for a player that wants to win, rather then be satisfied with losing just because he likes the city.its not about that .... its about weather you want to try your best to help your team win it all or bail on your team to be sidecar sally for another team that you think can already win it all and you just want to go for the ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I think it's commendable when a player does want to stay (as Bieksa has expressed) but I also understand if/when a player decides to move on. I don't like the reason to be "I want to go to a team that gives me a chance to win a cup" because, really, I want them to think they CAN BE the reason a team can win the cup. It basically undermines the other players on the team if that's the reason given and kind of says "I believe I'm better than the rest of you". So I hate when that reason's given. I believe there's usually more to the decision anyhow, but they just don't delve into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erkayloomeh Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I have no .preference. they've got the right to do whatever they choose with there careers. The same question could be asked about an organization and it's loyalty to a player. (Salo, ohlund) Alfred son is the perfect example. It should be his business what he does not the fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missioncanucksfan Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Just an interesting debate I had with someone and wanted to see what the consensus was around here. Say player X has recently turned 30-33 and has been with the same organization his entire career without winning a cup. He has his family here and is deeply involved with the community. If he is nearing the end of his prime, in your opinion, does it show more character for him to stick with, and retire with the same team if there is a 90% possibility he will never win a cup, OR does he have more character by wanting to leave in order to win a cup. Don't consider any assets you'll get back for the player, pretend he is an UFA who can choose to leave or stay. I personally think leaving that team to go somewhere else is more commendable because it really does show how much they care about winning, vs getting a cushy paycheck. This is why I respect Kesler's decision. He is going somewhere to win and be a vital piece to win, not just to relax in Miami. And also how would you react to the Sedins walking out on us to sign with or be traded to Detroit or Chicago or etc...Great post and I shall weigh in now.... Im all for loyalty and such. I was loyal to guys like Smyl, Tanti, Lidster, then eventually loyal to Trevor, Babych, Bure, McLean, then to Sedins, Naslund, Ohlund, then to Kesler, Burrows, Bieksa..... I have most of their jerseys, cried, wept, cheered, almost named kids after a few of them, but you have to respect Father Time. Now you have to respect the all mighty dollar and fiscal sense. As much as my heart is with Sedins and Kesler and Burrows... and lets compare to other superstars who stayed with their teams till the bitter end.... Sakic, Yzerman, Lemieux Those guys went out still playing at such a high level, they were still factors therefore it justified keeping them around and providing them the luxury of remaining with a certain team for so long Will the Sedins be those guys? I hope so but I think the coming year will make or break them. Was last year a hiccup or a preview of things to come? Im hoping for the former but if its the later then dump em while they have value. Burrows, and anyone else being kept past their due date is soooo bad for any team. Especially to fans forkin out $700 to watch a team getting embarassed because they just cant do the things they used to due to injuries or that ..."lost step". Here is a logical reasoning..... You own a new car....would you rather the new car? Or the car thats model is 33 yrs old? Why arent you loyal to that old car? Drove u to work, kids to school, family vacations, soccer games....many memories right? Well now timing belts go, has that click sound when you hit a corner, rattles, loud muffler...... how much are you willing to soend to keep it? Or get a new one and enjoy many new years of usefulness? Sports stars are no different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missioncanucksfan Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I have no .preference. they've got the right to do whatever they choose with there careers. The same question could be asked about an organization and it's loyalty to a player. (Salo, ohlund) Alfred son is the perfect example. It should be his business what he does not the fans.or take Ray Bourque for example. The guy bled Bruins but was granted a trade to colorado and finally won a cup. His jersey is hung from Bostons arena and he is entered into the Hall of Fame as a Bruin. Doesn't get any better/simpler than that. And hey.....any aging athlete will have the desire to win...thats not the issue or the question....it's... "CAN THEY?" What are they willing to do? What role did Mark Recchi and Doug Weight play when they won in Carolina? What role did Recchi play when he won in Boston? Most recently...what role did Mike Richards accept to win again in LA? For that reason alone is why Lombardi has told everyone that Richards aint goin anywhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadcanucks Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Just an interesting debate I had with someone and wanted to see what the consensus was around here. Say player X has recently turned 30-33 and has been with the same organization his entire career without winning a cup. He has his family here and is deeply involved with the community. If he is nearing the end of his prime, in your opinion, does it show more character for him to stick with, and retire with the same team if there is a 90% possibility he will never win a cup, OR does he have more character by wanting to leave in order to win a cup. Don't consider any assets you'll get back for the player, pretend he is an UFA who can choose to leave or stay. I personally think leaving that team to go somewhere else is more commendable because it really does show how much they care about winning, vs getting a cushy paycheck. This is why I respect Kesler's decision. He is going somewhere to win and be a vital piece to win, not just to relax in Miami. And also how would you react to the Sedins walking out on us to sign with or be traded to Detroit or Chicago or etc... The more I delve into my experience, I remember I nearly cried when Yzerman won the Cup in '97 (actually did cry) but didn't feel equally moved when Borque won the Cup with Colorado (and I was a big time Borque fan...loved the way he gave up his #7 to Phil Esposito and wore #77 after the number was retired in honor of Esposito). Perhaps that means I think the player who sticks it out with the team he's been with his whole career and wins with that team is of the highest character. But, that's not the question OP is asking...if I had to choose between the two options posed, once a player has UFA status, he has every right to go where he wants, and IF, his choice is to go where he thinks he has the best chance to win the Cup, I think that speaks of his desire to win...but that doesn't necessarily speak of character. To me, character is collection of attributes, of which, the desire to win is one of many things to consider (others include loyalty, courage, honesty, selflessness, leadership, etc.). Take Jarome Iginla for example...he chose Pittsburgh over Boston in 2013 because he felt Pittsburgh had a better chance to win..when that happened, I wasn't overwhelmed with, "wow, Iggy has a lot of character for wanting to go to the Pens because he thought he had a very good chance to win"...likewise, I didn't feel the same when he signed with the Bruins last summer. I would have been happy for Iggy if he won with the Pens or Bruins, but probably would not have cried like a baby like I did for Yzerman. Also, Iggy gave Feaster a chance to get some assets back, so in the end, there was a fair exchange between team and player, so mutual benefits were achieved. So, I don't really have a succinct answer for OP's question. If the Sedins chose to walk as UFAs and signed with another team and won the Cup, I'd probably have mixed feelings -- but my prevailing sentiment would be that I'd be happy for them because they have been model citizens for the Canucks and in the community. If the Sedins demanded a trade (as Kesler has been rumored to have done), I'd say sayanorah only after we got back assets to help solidify our future. Drawing from recent personal experience, I felt really good for Willie Mitchell for winning the Cup...do I think he had great character for rejecting Gillis' offer to sign with LA? Not necessarily since there were other factors that probably dictated Willie's decision other than his desire to win the Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TS06 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 It's an interesting question, but one that doesn't really have a black and white answer, as all these situations are different. I've heard rumors/stories about Kesler that could be extremely far fetched and not worth posting, as I have no proof or legitimate source and it sounds like tabloid bs. There is also the issue of his teammates voting against him wearing the "A". But putting speculation aside and just looking at the facts it is obvious the team is going in another direction, and personnel is going to change whenever that happens. I think Kesler sees the situation as mutually beneficial for both parties, and I don't hold that against him at all. Kovalchuk went home after signing a mammoth of a contract and left Lou holding his junk because he never gave him an opportunity to replace him. I know he was pissed at the NHL, and he had threatened during the lock out that he wouldn't come back, but that was a situation where absolutely betrayed his team, and was not honorable, even if he had legitimate reasons to leave. I think Bieksa staying is just as important to the team as Kesler leaving. We need players willing to leave so we can restock the cupboards. We also need players to stay to guide the rookies. I think every situation had it's own answer for the question asked. In other words, good question. This answer is unfocused, but I haven't had my coffee yet and I'm posting on a tablet so forgive me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Fig Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I think some players would feel winning a Cup in a new city would be tainted compared winning one in a place you've grown up and and toiled in for a number of years. Does anyone think Ray Bourque winning in Colorado meant nearly as much to him as if he'd won in Boston? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.53 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I think it's commendable when a player does want to stay on (as Bieksa has expressed) but I also understand if/when a player decides to move on. I don't like the reason to be "I want to go to a team that gives me a chance to win a cup" because, really, I want them to think they CAN BE the reason a team can win the cup. It basically undermines the other players on the team if that's the reason given and kind of says "I believe I'm better than the rest of you". So I hate when that reason's given. I believe there's usually more to the decision anyhow, but they just don't delve into it. Actually a really good point, but I would also say, yeah, some players are better than others. It's not like they don't know that. These guys are professionals. They know their value and where they are on the depth chart. Someone like Ryan Kesler is a better player than someone like Brad Richardson. It's not like they don't know who the best players on the team is. And I don't think they are saying they are better than them if they want to go to a team that gives them a chance to win. They are merely just saying, I have a better job opportunity here where they have a better chance at reaching their goals. Yeah, it's not like it's new information, these professionals know what's up. And honestly, shouldn't get their feelings hurt either way. Even as an 18 year old on a high school team, we know who the better players are, we didn't get butthurt over it. Just the way it is. Edit: also, I think a player should never have the mentality that they are the reason a team can contend for a cup. It's always a team thing. All players have an expiration date. They could play until they're 42 or who knows, maybe next game your career is over. Ask Andrew Alberts how quick it can all disappear. It comes to a point where a player needs to ask himself, can this team in it's current state contend for a cup? If not, can I go to a team that is in a state to win, and maybe be that extra piece they need to make them legit top contenders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easton76 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 So basically Bieksa vs Kesler? I'd say sticking out the contract you signed, then go elsewhere as a UFA to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vancouverdepression Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Just an interesting debate I had with someone and wanted to see what the consensus was around here. Say player X has recently turned 30-33 and has been with the same organization his entire career without winning a cup. He has his family here and is deeply involved with the community. If he is nearing the end of his prime, in your opinion, does it show more character for him to stick with, and retire with the same team if there is a 90% possibility he will never win a cup, OR does he have more character by wanting to leave in order to win a cup. Don't consider any assets you'll get back for the player, pretend he is an UFA who can choose to leave or stay. I personally think leaving that team to go somewhere else is more commendable because it really does show how much they care about winning, vs getting a cushy paycheck. This is why I respect Kesler's decision. He is going somewhere to win and be a vital piece to win, not just to relax in Miami. And also how would you react to the Sedins walking out on us to sign with or be traded to Detroit or Chicago or etc... i would be happy if the sedins left too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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