Dr.Strangelove Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Yup I would. Just so we're clear. What you mean to say and what you say should be the same thing if you don't want to be taken out of context. You should work on that. And you'd be ok with your family and friends being executed for your resistance ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejazz97 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 He was an SS quartermaster aka a book keeper and he did play an important part in the camps operation. On the note of the SS to note that near the end of the war you could be conscripted into the Waffen-SS (the combat branch) but to serve in the Allgemeine-SS which ran the camps you had to volunteer (and pass strict screening) and then specifically ask for a posting to a concentration camp. Yeah. I realize that now. I'm just wondering if he knew what he was getting into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffraff Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Look at it from the people's perspective at the time, though. Hitler made their country great again. Propaganda is a powerful agent as well. Everyone wanted to do their part to defeat Germany's enemies, no matter who they were. Unless you were part of an underground resistance movement, you generally did your part to help the country. Most people just think "Nazis=bad" and don't stop to consider the circumstances at the time and what they might have done in a German citizen's position. This is one of the most ridiculous justifications I've ever heard on any topic. Defending a citizens decision to fall in line because nazi Germany is improving the economy. Wow man. If Canada decided to march into other countries, participate in brainwashing, torture, ethnic cleansing On a world scale in the name of "building the Canadian economy", id move my family to New Zealand and defend real freedom not fall in line like a chicken $&!# mind slave. Can't believe your post tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejazz97 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 And you'd be ok with your family and friends being executed for your resistance ? They'd also just replace him with someone who would do the job. It's a dirty situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Strangelove Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Yeah. I realize that now. I'm just wondering if he knew what he was getting into. Honestly I doubt he fully understood what he was getting into there was a good chance he wanted the prestige of being in the SS and a cushy posting until the war was over but we will never know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rounoush Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 This is one of the most ridiculous justifications I've ever heard on any topic. Defending a citizens decision to fall in line because nazi Germany is improving the economy. Wow man. If Canada decided to march into other countries, participate in brainwashing, torture, ethnic cleansing On a world scale in the name of "building the Canadian economy", id move my family to New Zealand and defend real freedom not fall in line like a chicken crap mind slave. Can't believe your post tbh. We live in a much different world now than in the 1920's, 30's and 40's. Comparing what I said to today's standards is ridiculous and just putting words in my mouth. This was over 70 years ago. Time travels fast and we have progressed a lot. We need to stop judging the past like we do today. It's apples and oranges. I'm defending a 94 year old man who played an incredibly small part in arguably the world's biggest tragedy. Does putting him away (or even wasting 2 years on the court matters) really change anything that happened 70+ years ago? I'm just saying that people are missing the point of the justice system and just treating it as a revenge system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Strangelove Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I suggest you read Hitlers willing executioners by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen. I believe this excerpt deals with the moral responsibility of the Germans who took part in the holocaust. Another good one is Eichmann's inferno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Ambien Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 And if he refused to keep the books, he might well have been shot for dereliction of duty. Easy to sit here now, and judge what was the right thing to do, then. We live in a much different world now than in the 1920's, 30's and 40's. Comparing what I said to today's standards is ridiculous and just putting words in my mouth. This was over 70 years ago. Time travels fast and we have progressed a lot. We need to stop judging the past like we do today. It's apples and oranges. Bingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonMexico Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 We live in a much different world now than in the 1920's, 30's and 40's. Comparing what I said to today's standards is ridiculous and just putting words in my mouth. This was over 70 years ago. Time travels fast and we have progressed a lot. We need to stop judging the past like we do today. It's apples and oranges. Genocide is genocide regardless of when it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffraff Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 We live in a much different world now than in the 1920's, 30's and 40's. Comparing what I said to today's standards is ridiculous and just putting words in my mouth. We need to stop judging the past like we do today. Have you visited those camps, I have. I went to dachau when I was 19. I went with a friend while backpacking through Europe. This was back in the mid 90's. 50 some odd years later the place still carries the oppressive weight of the horror that occurred there. I felt it. It was haunting and I've never forgotten. Imagine what an inmate suffering there went through. I'm not saying you don't have the right to feel as you do. But I'm shocked by it tbh. And I totally disagree. This man was part of an atrocious machine. What has he done since the end of the war to attempt any reconciliation? Sorry but I have no sumptuary for anyone who cowardly accepted their role in nazi Germany. Humans need to stand up for what's right. The threat of death would be easier for me than to permanently die inside by becoming a nazi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejazz97 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Honestly I doubt he fully understood what he was getting into there was a good chance he wanted the prestige of being in the SS and a cushy posting until the war was over but we will never know I think I read somewhere that a lot of German citizens didn't even know what was going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddhas Hand Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 And you'd be ok with your family and friends being executed for your resistance ? My friends parents hid Jews in their house in holland during the war , I have talked to them frequently about this. While it is probably one the hardest decisions one could make putting your loved one's in danger of being killed they felt they had no choice. I would not be OK with my family being executed but sometimes you have to put everything on the line for what you believe in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rounoush Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Have you visited those camps, I have. I went to dachau when I was 19. I went with a friend while backpacking through Europe. This was back in the mid 90's. 50 some odd years later the place still carries the oppressive weight of the horror that occurred there. I felt it. It was haunting and I've never forgotten. Imagine what an inmate suffering there went through. I'm not saying you don't have the right to feel as you do. But I'm shocked by it tbh. And I totally disagree. This man was part of an atrocious machine. What has he done since the end of the war to attempt any reconciliation? Sorry but I have no sumptuary for anyone who cowardly accepted their role in nazi Germany. Humans need to stand up for what's right. The threat of death would be easier for me than to permanently die inside by becoming a nazi. Okay, thanks for the story but it really didn't have much to do with what I said and it makes me look like some sort of bad guy. You said he didn't attempt any reconciliation but that makes sense considering he maybe just wanted to forget about it. I'm not saying what he did was right by any means but it was just a very different time and VERY different situation than anything before or since. I don't think any of us could possibly relate. It was a massive scale thing and he was a very small, insignificant role in it. Throwing some jail time at him at this point just doesn't mean a thing. I just want to encourage some thought on it. Nothing is black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallenCR7A Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 We live in a much different world now than in the 1920's, 30's and 40's. Comparing what I said to today's standards is ridiculous and just putting words in my mouth. This was over 70 years ago. Time travels fast and we have progressed a lot. We need to stop judging the past like we do today. It's apples and oranges. I'm defending a 94 year old man who played an incredibly small part in arguably the world's biggest tragedy. Does putting him away (or even wasting 2 years on the court matters) really change anything that happened 70+ years ago? I'm just saying that people are missing the point of the justice system and just treating it as a revenge system. 'Argument of the Beard'. His part may be small (only from what we know), but he still played a part. Jailing him sets a precedent and standard that no crimes caught will go unpunished. It doesn't matter what age you are. It is not a revenge system when the person being convicted and charged is a criminal, as the German court finds him to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddhas Hand Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Another good one is Eichmann's inferno "From my childhood, obedience was something I could not get out of my system. When I entered the armed services at the age of 27, I found being obedient not a bit more difficult than it had been during my life to that point. It was unthinkable that I would not follow orders." Would you have obeyed orders and helped with the killing my friend ? I have only just got to know you but I do not think you would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rounoush Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 'Argument of the Beard'. His part may be small (only from what we know), but he still played a part. Jailing him sets a precedent and standard that no crimes caught will go unpunished. It doesn't matter what age you are. It is not a revenge system when the person being convicted and charged is a criminal, as the German court finds him to be. I suppose if they want to be consistent they have no choice. Just from my perspective though, 70 years after the fact for the small role he played, it's too late. I think the guilt he probably feels is enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddhas Hand Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I think I read somewhere that a lot of German citizens didn't even know what was going on. That's a bunch of crap , the whole world knew what was happening after Kristallnacht. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Strangelove Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 "From my childhood, obedience was something I could not get out of my system. When I entered the armed services at the age of 27, I found being obedient not a bit more difficult than it had been during my life to that point. It was unthinkable that I would not follow orders." Would you have obeyed orders and helped with the killing my friend ? I have only just got to know you but I do not think you would. I would like to say I wouldn't but the truth is I have no idea what I would have done if I had been in that position and I dont think anyone could truly answer the question of what they would have done rather we can only say what we would like to think we would have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Ambien Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I would like to say I wouldn't but the truth is I have no idea what I would have done if I had been in that position and I dont think anyone could truly answer the question of what they would have done rather we can only say what we would like to think we would have done. I think it's a waste of time.. ITT are monday morning quarterbacks who think people in the 30s and 40s should have been looking at things as they do in the 2010s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejazz97 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 That's a bunch of crap , the whole world knew what was happening after Kristallnacht. I never read when. It was probably before that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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