Why the Gudbranson trade is a great trade

[#1Luongofan]

6 hours ago, Baggins said:

Actually Gillis should have been fired a year earlier and AV kept on.

Yeah firing a gm and head coach that made this team a cup contender and replacing them with a gm and president of a club that doesn't know what the hell there doing was a stroke of genious also all canadian hockey fans that are watching bettmans all american hockey playoffs are real suckers

[gameburn]

16 hours ago, Tajun said:

I don't like this trade. I don't think it was bad value, I just don't think it makes sense for either team.

 

Florida is a strong team, aiming at cup runs in the next few years. They have a lot of up and comers, particularly goal scorers; what they needed most was some tough, minute munching defensemen. That's exactly what they just gave away.

 

Canucks are going into rebuild mode, whether JB likes it or not. We have some good defensive prospects, and some nastiness on the back end. What we need most is some people with high end offensive potential to replace the Sedins. That's exactly what we just gave away.

 

The thing is that if you look at the GMs of both these teams, it makes perfect sense. JB gets a big, tough defenseman, who oozes with character and was being groomed as a potential captain. Tom Rowe gets an advanced stats dreamboat in McCann. 

 

Simply put, I think the GMs both got the guy they wanted, and lost the guy they needed.

Beautifully written.

[jigson]

This guy was a high pick for a reason.

great trade.

[iinatcc]

Pierre Maguire seems to think Vancouver won the trade by a landslide so at least him saying that gives me enough comfort with this trade. Though one might argue Maguire has been one of the biggest cheerleaders on most of Benning's moves which includes getting Bonino.

 

That said it still hurts losing the 33rd overall pick.

 

However with Chris Philips' retirement and someone in that thread saying he kind of never lived up being that 1st overall pick. I remember a few years ago in one of the TSN radio podcast saying that the fact that Ottawa kept Philips for his entire career (almost 20 years) means there must be something about Philips that makes Ottawa want to keep him. Despite not being the flashiest of defensemen an organization deems you are irreplaceable means you must bring a lot to the team most players can't.

 

With what I am hearing about Gudbranson it seems like he could be the Chris Philiips of the Canucks. A quality stay at home defenseman with leadership qualities that you could keep in your organization for the rest of his career. And heck if he can have a career as long as Philips,  Gudbranson  can be with the team for another 12 or 13 years. 

[Bob Long]

19 hours ago, Tajun said:

. 

 

Simply put, I think the GMs both got the guy they wanted, and lost the guy they needed.

 

We need both. You can't trade for D and forward scoring at the same time in the same player. One big need was filled on D. We know we're getting high end scoring talent in the draft, and might also get it in free agency. JB did exactly the right thing, got the rarer commodity in a big RHD with lots of upside and leadership, knowing that we are definitely getting a forward with a higher ceiling in the draft than McCann in either Dubois or Tkachuk.  

[wren223]

Analytics. That's the new catch phrase and if you don't know it, abid by it, or subscribe to it it seems that you aren't any good at hockey. I think it has it's place and when used in measure and at the correct times can really help GMs, coaches and teams get information they need to assess and look at players, situations and teams. It isn't the be all and end all. It doesn't answer every single questions it simply gives you a different style of information. Those in power choose how to use that info. Example, kessel had amazing stats and positive possession numbers yet they guy was traded and moved and isn't seen as one of those top guys in the league. Why? What's missing? Things you can't or don't measure. I think it's some of these things that are now left out in the analytics age. It's also why some have said that Van lost this trade horribly.

 

Gudbranson doesn't score much, doesn't drive the offense from the back end, he doesn't always have great puck possession numbers. Yet, Arizona doesn't seem super keen about losing him (they also have some good d coming up and developing, that helps too). He is a physical, tough, defenseman. He is also noted as a leader in and out of the room, a team captain. How do you measure the leadership of a Messier or Lemuix (don't worry I'm not measuring him to them, just an example)? Does it mean that quality doesn't make a difference? No, it's just like analytics. It has to be taken with a grain of salt. Just like all information we filter through.

 

Did Van overpay? Maybe. It's far too early to know. Did Arizona get a good young prospect? Yes. However, McCann got destroyed in the faceoff circle so that lowers possession numbers so how is that for analytics? Wouldn't that say McCann isn't that valuable? Or is there more to the story? Gudbranson doesn't score or drive play a lot so he's got bad analytics, so he's nothing special or any good right? Or is there more there? Did Van get a leader, a physical force, a solid defenseman and a young player? Yes, maybe and we don't know yet. See, analytics, stats and most any information can be used to make most anything look one way or another. It's how you use it and how you want to see it that counts. So don't swallow all the lines touted by the analytic fans out there, take it with a grain of salt and see what you think. For me, I'll wait and see how he plays a season in Van before I can really say but I welcome the prospect of a tough, young dman.

 

It's also sad that now the media always seems to need to find a winner and loser and drill it home with trades. Wonder why people don't trade as much now?

[appleboy]

You build a team from goal tending out. The D was a mess last year. It is the biggest need. Scoring wins you nothing if you can't keep it out of your own net.

[Crimson-JH]

This trade made this team trending #1 on Yahoo.com today

 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, wren223 said:

Analytics. That's the new catch phrase and if you don't know it, abid by it, or subscribe to it it seems that you aren't any good at hockey. I think it has it's place and when used in measure and at the correct times can really help GMs, coaches and teams get information they need to asses and look at players, situations and teams. It isn't the be all and end all. It doesn't answer every single questions it simply gives you a different style of information. Those in power choose how to use that info. Example, kessel had amazing stats and positive possession numbers yet they guy was traded and moved and isn't seen as one of those top guys in the league. Why? What's missing? Things you can't or don't measure. I think it's some of these things that are now left out in the analytics age. It's also why some have said that Van lost this trade horribly.

 

Gudbranson doesn't score much, doesn't drive the offense from the back end, he doesn't always have great puck possession numbers. Yet, Arizona doesn't seem super keen about losing him. He is physical, tough, defenseman. He is also noted as a leader in and out of the room, a team captain. How do you measure the leadership of a Messier or Lemuix? Does it mean that quality doesn't make a difference? No, it's just like analytics. It has to be taken with a grain of salt. Just like all information we filter through.

 

Did Van overpay? Maybe. It's far too early to know. Did Arizona get a good young prospect? Yes. However, McCann got destroyed in the faceoff circle so that lowers possession numbers so how is that for analytics? Wouldn't that say McCann isn't that valuable? Or is there more to the story? Gudbranson doesn't score or drive play a lot so he's got bad analytics, so he's nothing special or any good right? Or is there more there? Did Van get a leader, a physical force, a solid defenseman and a young player? Yes, maybe and we don't know yet. See, analytics, stats and most any information can be used to make most anything look one way or another. It's how you use it and how you want to see it that counts. So don't swallow all the lines touted by the analytic fans out there, take it with a grain of salt and see what you think. For me, I'll wait and see how he plays a season in Van before I can really say but I welcome the prospect of a tough, young dman.

I agree with you that these young analytic guys feel they know all about hockey.  Yet, I would bet most, if not all of them, didn't even play beyond pewee house - they quit when body checking came in at the Bantam age.  I can't believe the owner of the Panthers allowed this young GM to move Gudbrandson!  It's crazy, and for almost nothing really.  We got a bloody steal.

[appleboy]

Would everyone have been happy if it was McCann straight up. The big fuss seems to be over the second.

The 4th is just a swap for their 5th.

 

McCann is a nice player and might become a useful piece but he is no number one center. Gaunce is slated for the 4th center hole and is a much better fit. Benning says he likes him as a center but he is terrible at FO's.

 

[Positive Canuck]

1 hour ago, wren223 said:

Analytics. That's the new catch phrase and if you don't know it, abid by it, or subscribe to it it seems that you aren't any good at hockey. I think it has it's place and when used in measure and at the correct times can really help GMs, coaches and teams get information they need to assess and look at players, situations and teams. It isn't the be all and end all. It doesn't answer every single questions it simply gives you a different style of information. Those in power choose how to use that info. Example, kessel had amazing stats and positive possession numbers yet they guy was traded and moved and isn't seen as one of those top guys in the league. Why? What's missing? Things you can't or don't measure. I think it's some of these things that are now left out in the analytics age. It's also why some have said that Van lost this trade horribly.

 

Gudbranson doesn't score much, doesn't drive the offense from the back end, he doesn't always have great puck possession numbers. Yet, Arizona doesn't seem super keen about losing him (they also have some good d coming up and developing, that helps too). He is a physical, tough, defenseman. He is also noted as a leader in and out of the room, a team captain. How do you measure the leadership of a Messier or Lemuix (don't worry I'm not measuring him to them, just an example)? Does it mean that quality doesn't make a difference? No, it's just like analytics. It has to be taken with a grain of salt. Just like all information we filter through.

 

Did Van overpay? Maybe. It's far too early to know. Did Arizona get a good young prospect? Yes. However, McCann got destroyed in the faceoff circle so that lowers possession numbers so how is that for analytics? Wouldn't that say McCann isn't that valuable? Or is there more to the story? Gudbranson doesn't score or drive play a lot so he's got bad analytics, so he's nothing special or any good right? Or is there more there? Did Van get a leader, a physical force, a solid defenseman and a young player? Yes, maybe and we don't know yet. See, analytics, stats and most any information can be used to make most anything look one way or another. It's how you use it and how you want to see it that counts. So don't swallow all the lines touted by the analytic fans out there, take it with a grain of salt and see what you think. For me, I'll wait and see how he plays a season in Van before I can really say but I welcome the prospect of a tough, young dman.

 

It's also sad that now the media always seems to need to find a winner and loser and drill it home with trades. Wonder why people don't trade as much now?

arizona ?

you wrote a freakin essay and didn't even get the team right. 

CDC at its finest.

 

 

[Shift-4]

3 minutes ago, Positive Canuck said:

arizona ?

you wrote a freakin essay and didn't even get the team right. 

CDC at its finest.

 

 

They are called the Arizona Coyotes now  

[Alflives]

Just now, Shift-4 said:

They are called the Arizona Coyotes now  

He wrote Arizona as the team we just traded with for Gudbranson, I think?

[Shift-4]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

He wrote Arizona as the team we just traded with for Gudbranson, I think?

Oooops. My bad.

I didn't feel like reading that wall of text

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Shift-4 said:

Oooops. My bad.

I didn't feel like reading that wall of text

It's interesting here (CDC) that a poster makes a little mistake and that makes his entire post useless drivel.  His post was really good, I thought.  I hope JB can steal us more players from these inexperienced GMs, who rely on their pretty computer generated Hero charts.  Sick 'em JB - dog on a bone ... *$t kid on a doughnut. 

[snolan]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

I agree with you that these young analytic guys feel they know all about hockey.  Yet, I would bet most, if not all of them, didn't even play beyond pewee house - they quit when body checking came in at the Bantam age.  I can't believe the owner of the Panthers allowed this young GM to move Gudbrandson!  It's crazy, and for almost nothing really.  We got a bloody steal.

I would not call a 1st round pick 2 years ago (24 ov) and a 33 ov pick nothing.

 

The problem with the CDC analysis is it is so polarized. The fact is we gave up some 'what if' assets, and are getting a big strong stay at home defenseman who was a very high pick, but at the same time does have some holes in his deep analytic game that seem to point to maybe starting to reach a cap of a top 4 stay at home 'brooks orpik/ willie mitchell' dream type.

 

It can be spun either way in the worst case but I think the truth is McCann or the 2nd have a very good chance of being a NHL player, and if you take Gudbranson at stock now it has the potential to blow up in the canucks face. There's also the chance it becomes a great trade as Gud gets a 2nd wind and becomes a legit stay at home #1 and resigns at a good price and McCann and the 2nd bust... a lot up in the air.

 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, snolan said:

I would not call a 1st round pick 2 years ago (24 ov) and a 33 ov pick nothing.

 

The problem with the CDC analysis is it is so polarized. The fact is we gave up some 'what if' assets, and are getting a big strong stay at home defenseman who was a very high pick, but at the same time does have some holes in his deep analytic game that seem to point to maybe starting to reach a cap of a top 4 stay at home 'brooks orpik/ willie mitchell' dream type.

 

It can be spun either way in the worst case but I think the truth is McCann or the 2nd have a very good chance of being a NHL player, and if you take Gudbranson at stock now it has the potential to blow up in the canucks face. There's also the chance it becomes a great trade as Gud gets a 2nd wind and becomes a legit stay at home #1 and resigns at a good price and McCann and the 2nd bust... a lot up in the air.

 

The guy played more minutes in the playoffs than any other player on his team, excluding the goalie.  Willie Mitchel and Bobby Lou both publically made wtf comments about giving Gud up.  I go with what his teammate's, especially those two guys, think over CDC and analytic people.  The guy is a dream D, and JB stole him because their analytic approach is not wise.  

[Positive Canuck]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

The guy played more minutes in the playoffs than any other player on his team, excluding the goalie.  Willie Mitchel and Bobby Lou both publically made wtf comments about giving Gud up.  I go with what his teammate's, especially those two guys, think over CDC and analytic people.  The guy is a dream D, and JB stole him because their analytic approach is not wise.  

Florida might be wining this trade in 5 years but Vancouver gets a stud and exactly what they need,just entering his prime , maybe this is a win-win trade. Nothing wrong with that. This is a great acquisition by Benning/Weisbrod. 
Gudbranson , Pedan and Tryamkin are a good start at addressing the softness on our back end.
Dubois / Tkachuk will be better than Cody Hodgson 2.0 McCann.

[snolan]

24 minutes ago, Alflives said:

The guy played more minutes in the playoffs than any other player on his team, excluding the goalie.  Willie Mitchel and Bobby Lou both publically made wtf comments about giving Gud up.  I go with what his teammate's, especially those two guys, think over CDC and analytic people.  The guy is a dream D, and JB stole him because their analytic approach is not wise.  

See you just cherry picked some stats to try and sound smart and push your argument proving my point about how CDC polarizes everything.

 

He also only plays about 2/3 of a season, and in the regular season (much bigger sample size right?) was 4th in TOI. 2014-2015? 5th on TOI, 2013-2014? 6th. 2012-2013? 7th.

 

Yeah what kind of comments do they make.. "That guy sucked see him later". Get a grip what a way to make your point.... 

 

This trade isn't a steal like you think it is - as I said (please don't setup a strawman) a 24th pick and a 33rd pick are not nothing - This wasn't highway robbery. It has a chance to be a good trade, it also has a chance to blow up.  I think we just got a serviceable player to help the D currently, so that is good. Make no mistake we did not just acquire a full fledged superstar, he has growing to do too.

 

 

[Alflives]

8 minutes ago, snolan said:

See you just cherry picked some stats to try and sound smart and push your argument proving my point about how CDC polarizes everything.

 

He also only plays about 2/3 of a season, and in the regular season (much bigger sample size right?) was 4th in TOI. 2014-2015? 5th on TOI, 2013-2014? 6th. 2012-2013? 7th.

 

Yeah what kind of comments do they make.. "That guy sucked see him later". Get a grip what a way to make your point.... 

 

This trade isn't a steal like you think it is - as I said (please don't setup a strawman) a 24th pick and a 33rd pick are not nothing - This wasn't highway robbery. It has a chance to be a good trade, it also has a chance to blow up.  I think we just got a serviceable player to help the D currently, so that is good. Make no mistake we did not just acquire a full fledged superstar, he has growing to do too.

 

 

He's a steal.  The Panther players are SHOCKED because they understand how important he is to their team.  Then they look at what the got in return, and it's absolutely NOTHING to help them.  Notice how the guys who played the game are the ones thinking we got a steal, and those analytic guys are the ones on the other side.  That's because YOU CANNOT measure character, heart, toughness, all around meanness, and making space for your teammate's to be more comfortable and feel protected.  Hockey is a very tough sport, especially in the playoffs.  We stole their stud.  He played more minutes in the playoffs than Ekblad!  And they were wickedly tough minutes too.