Time to add an Asterisk to the history books

[J.I.A.H.N]

41 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Guess you don’t spend much time in the library.  Do yourself a favour and if your going to read one book make it 99, he doesn’t  talk about himself at all (typical) but does a great history of the game, maybe you won’t feel that anyone that played in an era you didn’t watch was an inferior athlete if you did.  Watch you-tube clips of Lemuiex and what he had to do to score back then.  As far as goalies not been as athletic that is even more hilarious.  Stand-up goalies had to actually stop the puck rather than drop down and rely on size and positioning for it to hit you, and they didn’t have half the pucks not make the net like today which are blocked.  Smaller guys, not dropping down with leather pads which gained water weight the longer the game went on etc.  No composite sticks definitely made a difference, yet athletes could still pound the puck 100plus miles an hour with wooden ones in the eighties.   Bobby Hull was said to hit it 120 miles an hour, but he’s a chump too right, because you know they didn’t have fitness and diet and stuff back then.  

 

It’s crazy that you bring this up as a defense issue at all given how much more hitting existed, and how you could hook, hold, pin and grab with impunity from the early nineties onwards.  The 80’s is considered hockey at its best by most sport writers, often referred to as the golden era even, and for good reason, it was violent and high scoring.  What’s more exciting, a 5-4 game or 2-1 one?  As far as Gretzky goes this is what THN said “the you-tube generation has diminished some of the shine, but if anything over the years it’s even more amazing what he accomplished.  He’s the most dominant athete in the history of pro sports.” It goes on to show how many more points he scored than the next leading scorer, 70 and 80, and how many times.  Do yourself a favour and look at the scoring leaders of that era, legends most of them, and how far ahead he was percentage wise.  Federov in his prime, who nobody can say was slow because that would be hilarious, or unskilled or untrained or unwhatever won a Hart trophy 1994 I think, while Gretzky in his mid-thirties won his final Art Ross on a team with a lot less supporting cast.  In today’s era it would be like a guy (say Pettersson next year, we’ll actully he’d already done it twice at Pettersson current age) scoring 170 points when McDavid, as the next leading scorer, had 100.

 

There were fast (McDavid hasnt beat Gartner yet given how they do it now is different, sure he probably would, but 14 seconds for all the rest of the competition isn’t that far off from today’s fastest skaters either, Coffey would do just fine against them) guys back then too, but of course it isn’t as fast as today, because Mason Raymond’s are all the rage now.  Oh they had those back then too Kapanen won two fastest skater times.

 

Hockey was a lot of fun to watch back then, and it still is today.  I’ve always refrained from saying the guys that played in Howe’s era (before my time) must have been a bunch of untrained chumps compared to my era, pairtly because of respect and the rest because I’ve read enough to really know better.  Sawchuk is considered the best all-time goalie by the most comprehensive list ever made back in 1999 when a lot of guys were alive that watched him and even guys like Shore play.  Hasek, Roy and Broduer were still playing but they modified the list later and he still came out on top.  And as far as Howe goes, he was once tested by a sports doctor that worked with the top boxers of the time (which included Ali), and he said he was at least as fit and as well conditioned as any of them.   I know that because I read.    Would Gretzky do as well today? Absolutely, Pettersson is surviving and he’s no Gretzky.   Would he do as well today? Nope goalies drop down and cover where 9 of ten pucks go in as soon as anyone starts to shoot (making a mockery of the small and extremely athletic stand-ups of before), or .900sp ahead of most 80’s goaltenders.  The composite stick hasn’t evened this out either, but it’s made the average guy hit harder, does that make them more athletic too?  

 

In thirty years when people are posting about hockey they never watched and how much more athelitic guys then  (because you know, now they have this work-out which is way better than what Weider used to create the best bodybuilding champs ever in the 70’s and 80’s, which included a high protein, low carb diet not much different then the ones today) or how much better their defences are maybe you can let them know a little about the naivety of those statements too.

LOL...…….. Nice to see a well constructed rant! lol...…………...well written!

[Kevin Biestra]

10 hours ago, N7Nucks said:

Should add an asterix to all the absurd scoring records from before too. Since the league has developed and become so much better over the years. I could be an NHL goalie in the 80s. Guys had next to no athleticism, no butterfly, their movements compared to today's goalies is night and day. Not to mention all 20+ players need to be really, really good now. You could have guys skate around doing nothing but trying to punch each other before. You have a guy like that today you may as well be playing with a shortened bench. People always wanna diminish today's goalies but never say anything about Gretzky's crazy numbers. Or anyone's crazy scoring numbers from before. Watch the highlights from the 90s and beyond. It's actually crazy the difference in defenses and goalies compared to then and now.

The goalies got by on pure athleticism.  They had tiny pads and looked like baseball backcatchers, having to commit early like a soccer goalie.  Technique and padding changed for sure, but if you think you can walk out of the office at five o'clock, then put on a baseball glove and some slightly padded leather on your legs and be Ken Dryden or Gerry Cheevers, then you'd be in for a rude awakening.

 

Actually take a minute and appreciate a short guy like John Garrett or Richard Brodeur covering the net with less padding than a forward wears today.  And that was with guys like Al MacInnis still blasting the puck at 100mph.

 

Goalies are taller now, but chop five inches off of Luongo and put him in rugby gear and watch what happens to his GAA and SPCT.

[MikeyBoy44]

1 hour ago, janisahockeynut said:

Not that it pertains directly to the points made by Ibatch, but I really had a problem with the increasing equipment size worn by goalies...…………………......nice to see the NHL cut it back some.

 

No wonder players couldn't score...…….these goalies could jump off of tall buildings and not get hurt...……..looked more like flying squirrels....lol

You have to understand that players are getting better all around. The biggest reason for the goalie equipment starting to get bigger was the fact that it is getting to the point that any player can rip a puck. As the shots were getting harder so did the equipment. I agree some of it was starting to go overboard, but that was how goalies reacted to better protect themselves.

[Toyotasfan]

Imagine players today wearing damp leather pads instead of plastic, polyester and composites . That would slow them down adding another 20lbs . Even the level of protection, not even comparable. I don’t think a lot of modern NHL’ers would be tough enough to play in the 70’s-80’s.

[IBatch]

On 1/28/2019 at 11:55 AM, Kevin Biestra said:

The goalies got by on pure athleticism.  They had tiny pads and looked like baseball backcatchers, having to commit early like a soccer goalie.  Technique and padding changed for sure, but if you think you can walk out of the office at five o'clock, then put on a baseball glove and some slightly padded leather on your legs and be Ken Dryden or Gerry Cheevers, then you'd be in for a rude awakening.

 

Actually take a minute and appreciate a short guy like John Garrett or Richard Brodeur covering the net with less padding than a forward wears today.  And that was with guys like Al MacInnis still blasting the puck at 100mph.

 

Goalies are taller now, but chop five inches off of Luongo and put him in rugby gear and watch what happens to his GAA and SPCT.

Absolutely, this is why it bugs me whenever I read somebody say that goalies are better today because they are more athletic.  Which is harder to do, be 6’4-6”, wear bigger pads (even with reductions in size they are still bigger because the guys are bigger) that are made of lighter and more protective gear, and drop down into the butterfly as soon as someone might shoot to cover where most pucks go and most goals used to be scored along the ice, or stand-up in while physically covering as much as 35% less of the net (150lbs of 5’7” compared to 215+ lbs of 6’6”) and make a kick save to direct the puck to one of you open guys.   Roy changed everything.  Was he not athletic? What about Hasek was he not athletic?  Or if you want to go way back, look at at Bower, he’s routinely come into training camp and rank higher than all his team-mates in fitness testing (yes they had that bad then in the Middle Ages of hockey) and he didn’t crack an NHL lineup until his 30’s (exactly when nobody knows because he falsified his actual age, some think he was as much as five years older than he really was), after already being a legend in the AHL.  Historians have done sp on certain goalies, and his was North of .921 AND he’s actually behind only Broduer with over 600 professional wins in his career playing until his early-mid forties.

 

Or Parent...was he not athletic?  Back before expansion there we only 12 goalies that got to play....that’s a small market size, but they couldn’t match up today’s goalie right because today we have better diets and training etc ha ha ha.  It’s a joke really, ALL these guys were at least as athletic as today’s guys, their hand eye leg shoulder knee and even head coordination was off the charts because they used every part of their body to make a save, often while standing up which makes it all the more difficult.  The sad thing is you can train a guy in a few months with a modicum or skill how to play the butterfly, and they would be half way there already.  Where as those guys used a lifetime of experience to create their craft (which even included the butterfly for some).  Rant over.

[Kevin Biestra]

40 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Absolutely, this is why it bugs me whenever I read somebody say that goalies are better today because they are more athletic.  Which is harder to do, be 6’4-6”, wear bigger pads (even with reductions in size they are still bigger because the guys are bigger) that are made of lighter and more protective gear, and drop down into the butterfly as soon as someone might shoot to cover where most pucks go and most goals used to be scored along the ice, or stand-up in while physically covering as much as 35% less of the net (150lbs of 5’7” compared to 215+ lbs of 6’6”) and make a kick save to direct the puck to one of you open guys.   Roy changed everything.  Was he not athletic? What about Hasek was he not athletic?  Or if you want to go way back, look at at Bower, he’s routinely come into training camp and rank higher than all his team-mates in fitness testing (yes they had that bad then in the Middle Ages of hockey) and he didn’t crack an NHL lineup until his 30’s (exactly when nobody knows because he falsified his actual age, some think he was as much as five years older than he really was), after already being a legend in the AHL.  Historians have done sp on certain goalies, and his was North of .921 AND he’s actually behind only Broduer with over 600 professional wins in his career playing until his early-mid forties.

 

Or Parent...was he not athletic?  Back before expansion there we only 12 goalies that got to play....that’s a small market size, but they couldn’t match up today’s goalie right because today we have better diets and training etc ha ha ha.  It’s a joke really, ALL these guys were at least as athletic as today’s guys, their hand eye leg shoulder knee and even head coordination was off the charts because they used every part of their body to make a save, often while standing up which makes it all the more difficult.  The sad thing is you can train a guy in a few months with a modicum or skill how to play the butterfly, and they would be half way there already.  Where as those guys used a lifetime of experience to create their craft (which even included the butterfly for some).  Rant over.

 

Yeah, people seem to think that because they stuck the fat kid in net for road hockey that this is what happened in the NHL.  Stand up goaltending was an art that (kind of sadly) went extinct through massive padding and sports science.

 

I miss the personality goalies used to have with their styles.  Richard Brodeur diving in from out of frame to snag it out of the top corner.  Tony Esposito standing with the inverted V trying to trick players into shooting for the five hole.

[IBatch]

On 1/28/2019 at 12:30 PM, MikeyBoy44 said:

You have to understand that players are getting better all around. The biggest reason for the goalie equipment starting to get bigger was the fact that it is getting to the point that any player can rip a puck. As the shots were getting harder so did the equipment. I agree some of it was starting to go overboard, but that was how goalies reacted to better protect themselves.

The only all around thing I’ve noticed is the players that are getting drafted are faster, in part because of who has being winning cups recently, and that composite sticks add a lot more to a shot than wooden ones.  To say they are better or more athletic than previous athletes is a joke.  Lafluer with his pack a day habit would still be a great player in today’s game, and since I’ve been following hockey I’ve witnessed some incredible athletes.  The NYI and EDM dynasties, the run and gun eighties which were inspired by the Oilers (even back then teams tried to copy the winners), a whole lot of HHOFrs played then as well as a whole lot of guys that just missed.  The nineties until the trap and more expansion was also great hockey.  Today’s hockey pales in comparison, sure maybe it’s faster, but now everyone drops infront of shots and plays a five guys back sort of game.  Wish there was more video available for fans that didn’t experience it.  It’s called the golden era of hockey for a reason, and the 87 Canada Cup still is considered the best hockey tournament ever played.

 

Mason Raymond’s everywhere doesn’t equal better athletes or better hockey.  Now hitting is just barely touching guys and pushing them a little.  Even in 2011 hitting was better.   Ugh.  All I can say is if you didn’t watch hockey back then, you shouldn’t come to conclusions.

 

Goalies were lit up until Roys game was popularized, but guess what Hasek was even better.  Becuase he was an incredible athlete, two Hart’s and a run of Vezinas, and one Cup.  Made Buffalo a contender with spare parts.  And Parent did the same in his era although they actually had some weapons, and they’re was some great teams they had to beat...

[Tortorella's Rant]

you could say the same thing about scoring records too. The game is played largely the same. Strategies and such have obviously developed over time. Players are bigger, stronger than they used to be. But so are the goalies. The equipment has grown significantly in size compared to the 70s, 80s, and even 90s. Goalies take so much of the net up today and some of that isn't even skill or positioning - it's merely their equipment taking up more space. I remember when JS Giguere rigged his chest protector so that when he would go into the butterfly, his chest protector would rise eliminating the space that should've been over his shoulders.

[MikeyBoy44]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

The only all around thing I’ve noticed is the players that are getting drafted are faster, in part because of who has being winning cups recently, and that composite sticks add a lot more to a shot than wooden ones.  To say they are better or more athletic than previous athletes is a joke.  Lafluer with his pack a day habit would still be a great player in today’s game, and since I’ve been following hockey I’ve witnessed some incredible athletes.  The NYI and EDM dynasties, the run and gun eighties which were inspired by the Oilers (even back then teams tried to copy the winners), a whole lot of HHOFrs played then as well as a whole lot of guys that just missed.  The nineties until the trap and more expansion was also great hockey.  Today’s hockey pales in comparison, sure maybe it’s faster, but now everyone drops infront of shots and plays a five guys back sort of game.  Wish there was more video available for fans that didn’t experience it.  It’s called the golden era of hockey for a reason, and the 87 Canada Cup still is considered the best hockey tournament ever played.

 

Mason Raymond’s everywhere doesn’t equal better athletes or better hockey.  Now hitting is just barely touching guys and pushing them a little.  Even in 2011 hitting was better.   Ugh.  All I can say is if you didn’t watch hockey back then, you shouldn’t come to conclusions.

 

Goalies were lit up until Roys game was popularized, but guess what Hasek was even better.  Becuase he was an incredible athlete, two Hart’s and a run of Vezinas, and one Cup.  Made Buffalo a contender with spare parts.  And Parent did the same in his era although they actually had some weapons, and they’re was some great teams they had to beat...

I had to roll my eyes so hard I now have a migraine. Good thing you know everything so you can show us all up. I choose to take your opinion with a large teaspoon of salt. I'm only comparing the fact that more players today can shoot pucks harder today than they did in the past. You can argue all you want but I don't really care. Thanks for the reply!

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, MikeyBoy44 said:

I had to roll my eyes so hard I now have a migraine. Good thing you know everything so you can show us all up. I choose to take your opinion with a large teaspoon of salt. I'm only comparing the fact that more players today can shoot pucks harder today than they did in the past. You can argue all you want but I don't really care. Thanks for the reply!

Absolutely. It’s called composite sticks ha ha.  That said Al Ifrate and McInnis say hello, as does Bobby Hull.  Yes I know it was a rant, but reading how misinformed some of the posts are when making sweeping statements about how much better hockey players are today in whatever facet, someone has to step up and provide perspective and stand up to legacies of the past.   Sorry for the migraine, I almost gave myself one too writing that post, trying to dig up from the gray matter isn’t always easy.

 

And the response was to your first sentence mostly “you have to understand hockey players are getting better all around”, that is migraine inducing for anyone who watched some of the best ever play the game.  

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, Tortorella's Rant said:

you could say the same thing about scoring records too. The game is played largely the same. Strategies and such have obviously developed over time. Players are bigger, stronger than they used to be. But so are the goalies. The equipment has grown significantly in size compared to the 70s, 80s, and even 90s. Goalies take so much of the net up today and some of that isn't even skill or positioning - it's merely their equipment taking up more space. I remember when JS Giguere rigged his chest protector so that when he would go into the butterfly, his chest protector would rise eliminating the space that should've been over his shoulders.

Garth Snowman really pushed the envelope with his gear, his shoulders were hilarious.