Time to add an Asterisk to the history books

[Glug Datt]

agreed for the most part, but in the big picture, who really cares? there's people who understand such concepts, and even among those there will be differing opinions on how to compare. but isn't debate our right and /or duty as passionate fans of the game? and if the higher up's want to exaggerate numbers to grow the game, let them. we all know they're clowns anyways..

 

in regards to the goalie stats, does anyone know his many games goalies play in this era? are the backups more involved? how many games squished into his many weeks etc.. gotta  compare apples to apples 

[MikeyBoy44]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

I think luckily, as a sport.  The fans of the NHL are smart enough to know there's different era's that matter.  Nobody can compare to the 80's as the 80's were a ridiculous era in hockey for scoring.  we'll NEVER see another person hitting 160 points, let alone 4-8 and the likelihood of a 200 point season is an absolute joke.  The habs of the 70s with their record season will never be matched and most hockey fans agree to that as well that holding a candle to that team is impossible due to how the game has evolved.

 

In fact I think the only group of people that still try to make the comparison for relevancy in regards to the differrent eras of hockey are Leafs fans.  Making the claim that we won 13 cups (against 5 ther teams) is their hill to die on.  Which is, let's be totally honest laughable.  At least the Oilers did it in a near full league, at least the Flames did it against the era of the Oilers, at least the Red Wings did it in the 90s at the advent of the dead puck era and the Devils new age trapping systems.

 

No man, I agree with you 100% but feel good knowing as fans of the sport we hockey fans are smart enoguh to know who belongs where and why

I got my hockey news in the mail the other day. It was a rookie edition. They rated the teams in order of calders won/ 2nds/3rd place finishes. Can you guess what 6 teams came in the top 6? 

[Westcoasting]

40 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

“Luongo moving up the all-time-wins chart”

 

Not the same thing as it used to mean, yet is said with the same conviction or even reverence. 

 

Respect for the game’s past is all but lost. 

 

What?? he is not the greatest ever?  

[Master Mind]

Why does this bother anyone? There's always things that change, so a direct comparison is never doable. Sure goalies get more wins now, but they go through more lockouts, have their equipment shrunk, and they face an overall more talented player pool.

 

The more records broken the better I say. The kids of today that didn't see Brodeur, Roy, etc. can at least say they were around to see Luongo, Lundqvist, and Fleury, some of the best of their era.

 

I highly doubt Roy is worried about whether people think Lundqvist is better than him -- and neither should anyone else. Just be happy for them, they succeeded in the environment they played in.

[Warhippy]

3 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

You’re actually UNDERstating what a joke the original six league was for a good part of it’s history.  I mentioned this in another thread...for a lengthy period there was only three teams effectively in that league as the Red Wings had either direct or strong indirect control of the three American teams. (The infamous Norris House league).

lol oh no, no no I remember very well.  Chicago had a few good years, Boston squeaked one out here and there with New York, but by and large it was the Leafs, the Habs and the Detroit Howes...err the Gordie Red Wings.

 

Any cups won in that era were and absolute joke

[Warhippy]

3 hours ago, MikeyBoy44 said:

I got my hockey news in the mail the other day. It was a rookie edition. They rated the teams in order of calders won/ 2nds/3rd place finishes. Can you guess what 6 teams came in the top 6? 

Hmmm nope.  Gonna go ahead and say original 6?

 

[Toyotasfan]

Think of how many Butterfly goalies there were before Patrick Roy and Ed Belfor. How long would a stand up goalie like Billy Smith or Mike Liut last in todays NHL?  They would get lit up like a Christmas tree for playing that way. 

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Toyotasfan said:

Think of how many Butterfly goalies there were before Patrick Roy and Ed Belfor. How long would a stand up goalie like Billy Smith or Mike Liut last in todays NHL?  They would get lit up like a Christmas tree for playing that way. 

The butterfly guys of today, if they played years ago, would have broken faces and legs.  No masks (or crappy ones, where the goalie still got cut and concussed) and permanent pegs for the goal posts.  

[IBatch]

8 hours ago, Warhippy said:

I think luckily, as a sport.  The fans of the NHL are smart enough to know there's different era's that matter.  Nobody can compare to the 80's as the 80's were a ridiculous era in hockey for scoring.  we'll NEVER see another person hitting 160 points, let alone 4-8 and the likelihood of a 200 point season is an absolute joke.  The habs of the 70s with their record season will never be matched and most hockey fans agree to that as well that holding a candle to that team is impossible due to how the game has evolved.

 

In fact I think the only group of people that still try to make the comparison for relevancy in regards to the differrent eras of hockey are Leafs fans.  Making the claim that we won 13 cups (against 5 ther teams) is their hill to die on.  Which is, let's be totally honest laughable.  At least the Oilers did it in a near full league, at least the Flames did it against the era of the Oilers, at least the Red Wings did it in the 90s at the advent of the dead puck era and the Devils new age trapping systems.

 

No man, I agree with you 100% but feel good knowing as fans of the sport we hockey fans are smart enoguh to know who belongs where and why

Very valid points.  One thing is that most of us are aware of what is happening in our current era, and maybe something from the past from what they’ve read or heard their elders talk about growing up, but eventually it all becomes history.

 

In thirty years from now the next generation of hockey fans will have memories from growing up in the 2020-30’s but really have no clue as to what went down before that, and childhood hockey memories are a different than the ones we make as adults.  That’s a big reason I feel strongly about this, I don’t want to see what was accomplished in the past watered down.  Lundqvist himself acknowledged that the door is wide open now for goalies to make it to 400 career wins and beyond now playing in this era (of course that also depends on an early career start and some longevity) when he just passed legendary Sawchuk.  It’s already happening with the generation of fans that didn’t see Gretzky or the 70’s Habs play, quick to point out goalies sp lower, players not as fast or as fit (which is funny considering that fitness  at the time and weight training were all the rage) and you tube doesn’t exactly captivate.  The 1987 Canada Cup is considered the best hockey ever played...will it look like the Summit series to those that look back in thirty years?

 

The point is yes responsible and engaged hockey fans know that the shoot-out scews the historical hockey facts for both goalies and team records, and so do the players themselves (again Lundqvists remarks, knows he really didn’t pass what Sawchuk managed), but after thirty years or so without changes (hopefully ax’s the shoot-out into the footnotes of hockey history) it will be so commonplace the earlier eras won’t seem as relevant.  

 

Making it an even playing field is just doing a service to the athletes more than anything, and it records history in a more meaningful way so future fans can compare later on.

[Kevin Biestra]

8 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

“Luongo moving up the all-time-wins chart”

 

Not the same thing as it used to mean, yet is said with the same conviction or even reverence. 

 

Respect for the game’s past is all but lost. 

 

 

It doesn't help when you have dudes like Ferraro campaigning to change all the trophy names.

 

Never should have changed the division names either.  Or the conference names.

[J-Dizzle]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

It doesn't help when you have dudes like Ferraro campaigning to change all the trophy names.

 

Never should have changed the division names either.  Or the conference names.

The only award that should be renamed is the M*rk M*ssier (spits) leadership award. 

[Kevin Biestra]

8 minutes ago, J-Dizzle said:

The only award that should be renamed is the M*rk M*ssier (spits) leadership award. 

The award should just be discarded instead of renamed.  Even if it were named after a player I like, everything about that award and the way it is handed out is bush league.  It should never have been introduced.

[JeremyCuddles]

Should add an asterix to all the absurd scoring records from before too. Since the league has developed and become so much better over the years. I could be an NHL goalie in the 80s. Guys had next to no athleticism, no butterfly, their movements compared to today's goalies is night and day. Not to mention all 20+ players need to be really, really good now. You could have guys skate around doing nothing but trying to punch each other before. You have a guy like that today you may as well be playing with a shortened bench. People always wanna diminish today's goalies but never say anything about Gretzky's crazy numbers. Or anyone's crazy scoring numbers from before. Watch the highlights from the 90s and beyond. It's actually crazy the difference in defenses and goalies compared to then and now.

[Westcoasting]

39 minutes ago, N7Nucks said:

Should add an asterix to all the absurd scoring records from before too. Since the league has developed and become so much better over the years. I could be an NHL goalie in the 80s. Guys had next to no athleticism, no butterfly, their movements compared to today's goalies is night and day. Not to mention all 20+ players need to be really, really good now. You could have guys skate around doing nothing but trying to punch each other before. You have a guy like that today you may as well be playing with a shortened bench. People always wanna diminish today's goalies but never say anything about Gretzky's crazy numbers. Or anyone's crazy scoring numbers from before. Watch the highlights from the 90s and beyond. It's actually crazy the difference in defenses and goalies compared to then and now.

Pavel Bure was a good example, he came in to the league and skated and stick handled at speed like no one had seen before. I had never seen a player (on any team) have so many breakaways. But guys like Bowman quickly ended that by implementing defences where everyone was involved and no more floating at the blue line for a break out pass. Blocking shots soon became the normal rather than a playoff procedure. It is crazy the differences over the years.

[skolozsy2]

13 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

You’re actually UNDERstating what a joke the original six league was for a good part of it’s history.  I mentioned this in another thread...for a lengthy period there was only three teams effectively in that league as the Red Wings had either direct or strong indirect control of the three American teams. (The infamous Norris House league).

I agree 100% with what you say and it almost makes me laugh hysterically when I see people on this board say they wish the NHL would go back to the "good ol' days".  They have no idea just corrupt and colluded that original 6 league was.  

 

Speaking of James Norris....When the original BlackHawks owner died, Norris took over the Hawks, (even though he owned the RedWings at the time too) and then proceeded to trade all the good players off the Hawks to the RedWings for nothing in return.  Hawks went on to miss the playoffs 14 out of the next 15 years and the Wings go onto 10 league championships and 5 Cups in the same span.

 

And that's just one example of how the NHL operated back when there actually was a REAL "old boys club" that made up their own rules.

[J.I.A.H.N]

It is all about Marketing , boys!

The NHL could give a flying F, about us traditional fans that are already entrenched in the sport

this is all about finding new fans and expanding market bases.....

 

Just like the NHL said at the all-star game

after bringing out their last "newest and greatest" marketing ploy

"this is leading edge" referring to the changing triangle that was over-laid over the ice on tv

Didn't they say, "they would be left behind" ?

 

I hated it, immediately

but I can see the young people embracing it, as it looks hi-tech

and gives them info,,,,,,,,

 

I am an tradionalist like Ibatch

I hate these new records that don't match up with the old ones

but this marketing is not directed at me

 

This is why there is OTW and OTL's, 3 on 3 play, and over lays

I hate it, but I do not live in Arizona, or Florida, where they are trying desperately

to develop new markets.....which is why there is a new team Jersey every other week

 

This is business

 

 

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, N7Nucks said:

Should add an asterix to all the absurd scoring records from before too. Since the league has developed and become so much better over the years. I could be an NHL goalie in the 80s. Guys had next to no athleticism, no butterfly, their movements compared to today's goalies is night and day. Not to mention all 20+ players need to be really, really good now. You could have guys skate around doing nothing but trying to punch each other before. You have a guy like that today you may as well be playing with a shortened bench. People always wanna diminish today's goalies but never say anything about Gretzky's crazy numbers. Or anyone's crazy scoring numbers from before. Watch the highlights from the 90s and beyond. It's actually crazy the difference in defenses and goalies compared to then and now.

Guess you don’t spend much time in the library.  Do yourself a favour and if your going to read one book make it 99, he doesn’t  talk about himself at all (typical) but does a great history of the game, maybe you won’t feel that anyone that played in an era you didn’t watch was an inferior athlete if you did.  Watch you-tube clips of Lemuiex and what he had to do to score back then.  As far as goalies not been as athletic that is even more hilarious.  Stand-up goalies had to actually stop the puck rather than drop down and rely on size and positioning for it to hit you, and they didn’t have half the pucks not make the net like today which are blocked.  Smaller guys, not dropping down with leather pads which gained water weight the longer the game went on etc.  No composite sticks definitely made a difference, yet athletes could still pound the puck 100plus miles an hour with wooden ones in the eighties.   Bobby Hull was said to hit it 120 miles an hour, but he’s a chump too right, because you know they didn’t have fitness and diet and stuff back then.  

 

It’s crazy that you bring this up as a defense issue at all given how much more hitting existed, and how you could hook, hold, pin and grab with impunity from the early nineties onwards.  The 80’s is considered hockey at its best by most sport writers, often referred to as the golden era even, and for good reason, it was violent and high scoring.  What’s more exciting, a 5-4 game or 2-1 one?  As far as Gretzky goes this is what THN said “the you-tube generation has diminished some of the shine, but if anything over the years it’s even more amazing what he accomplished.  He’s the most dominant athete in the history of pro sports.” It goes on to show how many more points he scored than the next leading scorer, 70 and 80, and how many times.  Do yourself a favour and look at the scoring leaders of that era, legends most of them, and how far ahead he was percentage wise.  Federov in his prime, who nobody can say was slow because that would be hilarious, or unskilled or untrained or unwhatever won a Hart trophy 1994 I think, while Gretzky in his mid-thirties won his final Art Ross on a team with a lot less supporting cast.  In today’s era it would be like a guy (say Pettersson next year, we’ll actully he’d already done it twice at Pettersson current age) scoring 170 points when McDavid, as the next leading scorer, had 100.

 

There were fast (McDavid hasnt beat Gartner yet given how they do it now is different, sure he probably would, but 14 seconds for all the rest of the competition isn’t that far off from today’s fastest skaters either, Coffey would do just fine against them) guys back then too, but of course it isn’t as fast as today, because Mason Raymond’s are all the rage now.  Oh they had those back then too Kapanen won two fastest skater times.

 

Hockey was a lot of fun to watch back then, and it still is today.  I’ve always refrained from saying the guys that played in Howe’s era (before my time) must have been a bunch of untrained chumps compared to my era, pairtly because of respect and the rest because I’ve read enough to really know better.  Sawchuk is considered the best all-time goalie by the most comprehensive list ever made back in 1999 when a lot of guys were alive that watched him and even guys like Shore play.  Hasek, Roy and Broduer were still playing but they modified the list later and he still came out on top.  And as far as Howe goes, he was once tested by a sports doctor that worked with the top boxers of the time (which included Ali), and he said he was at least as fit and as well conditioned as any of them.   I know that because I read.    Would Gretzky do as well today? Absolutely, Pettersson is surviving and he’s no Gretzky.   Would he do as well today? Nope goalies drop down and cover where 9 of ten pucks go in as soon as anyone starts to shoot (making a mockery of the small and extremely athletic stand-ups of before), or .900sp ahead of most 80’s goaltenders.  The composite stick hasn’t evened this out either, but it’s made the average guy hit harder, does that make them more athletic too?  

 

In thirty years when people are posting about hockey they never watched and how much more athelitic guys then  (because you know, now they have this work-out which is way better than what Weider used to create the best bodybuilding champs ever in the 70’s and 80’s, which included a high protein, low carb diet not much different then the ones today) or how much better their defences are maybe you can let them know a little about the naivety of those statements too.

[IBatch]

8 hours ago, Westcoasting said:

Pavel Bure was a good example, he came in to the league and skated and stick handled at speed like no one had seen before. I had never seen a player (on any team) have so many breakaways. But guys like Bowman quickly ended that by implementing defences where everyone was involved and no more floating at the blue line for a break out pass. Blocking shots soon became the normal rather than a playoff procedure. It is crazy the differences over the years.

Federov too, but he was a Center and Bowman drove Selkes into his brain.  Wasn’t scoring goals as much but were on par with points around the same number of games played and he was even faster.  And Gretzky still outscored him when he won his Hart trophy (he was second) 1994, the last year before the trap became the next part of history.

[timberz21]

Although I haven't checked the stats, intuitively, games backed then had much higher scoring, which probably meant a lower % of games ended in ties.   With today's defensive systems and lots of games finishing 2-1, 1-0 or 3-2, chances are a higher % of games will end up in overtime/shootout.  Therefore, if there were no overtime today, goalies would be disadvantage in term of total wins, because more games would end up tie.

 

I doubt the NHL would consider an asterisk, because back games teams played 50-60-70 games.  A player scoring 50G is a significant milestone, nowadays, however, back then guys used to do it in  50-60-70 games.  Now players barely make it in 82 games. 

 

Also, Now players are reaching 1,000/1,500 pts because they are playing 82 games, for 12-15 seasons.  NHL put much more emphasis on total point rather than PPG average, therefore older players like Richard, Beliveau, Hull, Mikita, Howe are being surpassed from the all-time scoring list because of # games played.

 

If you put an asterisk for goalie wins, where does it stops?

[J.I.A.H.N]

Not that it pertains directly to the points made by Ibatch, but I really had a problem with the increasing equipment size worn by goalies...…………………......nice to see the NHL cut it back some.

 

No wonder players couldn't score...…….these goalies could jump off of tall buildings and not get hurt...……..looked more like flying squirrels....lol