NMHockey Posted November 29, 2021 Author Share Posted November 29, 2021 6 hours ago, BigTramFan said: Ah ok, sorry now I get what that trade was with Horvat, Pearson, Dipietro, Woo + three 1st round picks. So that haul is what we would trade to whoever wins the lottery in order to get the 1st overall in 2023? That might be enough, but I don't think its guaranteed. Highly depends on us resigning Horvat before the 2023 entry draft. He might choose to delay and test the UFA market a little, especially if we are uncompetitive next season, if that happens then Horvat will be UFA and not worth anything in the trade. Pearson will have one year left on his contract and you gotta expect he will have declined significantly more by then, so he will probably have negative value. Dipietro and Woo may or may not be NHL players. When you look at the value from our side, it is really the three 1st round picks and a resigned Horvat that someone would be trading the 1st overall pick for. On current standings that the VAN pick would be 5th overall, NJD 11th overall, MIN pick 25th overall. I'm not sure that would be enough. Standings at the end of 2022-23 season could be quite different though. Who knows. Miller + Boeser cap hit is over $11m at the 2022 TDL, so MIN can't afford them unless they move more off their books this year. Also next season MIN are tight against the cap. Even with Fiala and Bjugstad gone and without resigning any UFAs like Rask or Goligoski they have a cap hit of $66m for only 13 players (this is mostly due to the buyouts or Parise and Suter). This means they only have $15.5m cap space left next season to sign a minimum of 9 players (about $1.7m per contract). Which is ok - they should be able to find some serviceable players at those average amounts, but none of those 9 players can be Miller or Boeser, as they are both too expensive. I'm not sure what your information is on that. In 2023-24 FLA have $26.7m in cap space to sign at least 13 players. I would expect Weegar to be a priority for FLA. If he would sign for $6.5m in VAN then he would likely sign in FLA for $5.5m (tax differences alone would make this similar net income). This would leave FLA with $21.2m for another 12 players, which is $1.75m per contract. Similar to MIN for next season, they will make that work quite easily, esp with the tax situation in Florida. Horvat will have value even if he has 1 year on his deal. He makes any team go from pretender to 25% more of a contender. Plus if he wants out of here than his acquiring team will have no problem signing him. Pearson is only 29 and should not be dramatically declining at all yet. Woo is a blue chip RHD prospect and you put him in with a 59-60 point captain plus three 1st round picks (5th, 11th, 25th is pretty good); that’s a good package for 1st overall. If DiPietro isn’t a sure thing make it Silovs in the deal instead as he’s the better goaltender right now. Not like Silovs is going to come in and beat out Demko for #1 anyways. In that deal the Wild would clear $5.1 Mil in Fiala, V.Rask and his $4 Mil will walk as a UFA, Greenway is a pending RFA making $2.1 Mil who will likely be traded to make room for Rossi and Boldy who are on ELCs, Bjugstad and his $900K were in that deal and he probably walks as a UFA anyways if not he only costs $1 Mil or less, Goligoski and his $5 Mil will be gone as likely will Jo.Benns $900 K and Merrills $850 K; Calen Addison on his ELC will be ready for a full-time top five D role and Fedor Gordeev on his ELC might step in too. The Wild will have cap space. Florida will not be able to give Weegar a raise. They currently have 0 cap space and Barkovs $4.1 Mil raise kicks in next season; plus they’ll have to re-sign Nutivaara, Gudas, Marchment, Acciari, Connauton, Juolevi, Vatrano, Mamin, and L.Carlsson. Also coming off their ELCs will be O.Tippett, Priskie, Luostarinen, Heponiemi, and after next season will be S.Knight, Denisenko, and S.Noel. Also after next season Huberdeau and Hornqvist will be UFAs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTramFan Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 2 hours ago, ZH96 said: Horvat will have value even if he has 1 year on his deal. He makes any team go from pretender to 25% more of a contender. Plus if he wants out of here than his acquiring team will have no problem signing him. By definition of your trade for the 1st overall pick it has to happen between the 2023 draft lottery and the 2023 entry draft, so somewhere between April - July 2023. This is because we won't know who wins the 1st overall until after the lottery (only then can you define the team we are trying to trade with). Between April-July 2023 Horvat will be on the last year of his current contract. It will be past the TDL and into the 2023 playoffs so he cannot be traded at that time. His contract then ends in the 2023 off season. My point is that if we don't have him signed to a new contract before this time, then he is a pending UFA and virtually worthless in the trade. I'm not sure why you say "he has 1 year on his deal" because we won't at that point. 2 hours ago, ZH96 said: Pearson is only 29 and should not be dramatically declining at all yet. Woo is a blue chip RHD prospect and you put him in with a 59-60 point captain plus three 1st round picks (5th, 11th, 25th is pretty good); that’s a good package for 1st overall. If DiPietro isn’t a sure thing make it Silovs in the deal instead as he’s the better goaltender right now. Not like Silovs is going to come in and beat out Demko for #1 anyways. Pearson has already shown significant decline and looks very slow. He has negative value now because of his expensive and long contract. By Apr-Jul 2023 we will know whether Woo, Dipeitro are NHL players. Right now though, who knows. Woo would not be defined as a "blue chip" D prospect. I think its unlikely a team takes that deal for the 1st overall pick. 2 hours ago, ZH96 said: In that deal the Wild would clear $5.1 Mil in Fiala, V.Rask and his $4 Mil will walk as a UFA, Greenway is a pending RFA making $2.1 Mil who will likely be traded to make room for Rossi and Boldy who are on ELCs, Bjugstad and his $900K were in that deal and he probably walks as a UFA anyways if not he only costs $1 Mil or less, Goligoski and his $5 Mil will be gone as likely will Jo.Benns $900 K and Merrills $850 K; Calen Addison on his ELC will be ready for a full-time top five D role and Fedor Gordeev on his ELC might step in too. My point is that you have MIN taking on Miller + Boeser at the 2022 TDL. They will need to clear more than $11m of cap space to do that. Moving $6m from Fiala and Bjugstad is only about half of what needs to move, and it has to be done THIS SEASON otherwise MIN cannot do that deal at the TDL because they will be over the cap limit. Moving guys in the off season won't help them with the deal you propose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMHockey Posted November 29, 2021 Author Share Posted November 29, 2021 1 hour ago, BigTramFan said: By definition of your trade for the 1st overall pick it has to happen between the 2023 draft lottery and the 2023 entry draft, so somewhere between April - July 2023. This is because we won't know who wins the 1st overall until after the lottery (only then can you define the team we are trying to trade with). Between April-July 2023 Horvat will be on the last year of his current contract. It will be past the TDL and into the 2023 playoffs so he cannot be traded at that time. His contract then ends in the 2023 off season. My point is that if we don't have him signed to a new contract before this time, then he is a pending UFA and virtually worthless in the trade. I'm not sure why you say "he has 1 year on his deal" because we won't at that point. Pearson has already shown significant decline and looks very slow. He has negative value now because of his expensive and long contract. By Apr-Jul 2023 we will know whether Woo, Dipeitro are NHL players. Right now though, who knows. Woo would not be defined as a "blue chip" D prospect. I think its unlikely a team takes that deal for the 1st overall pick. My point is that you have MIN taking on Miller + Boeser at the 2022 TDL. They will need to clear more than $11m of cap space to do that. Moving $6m from Fiala and Bjugstad is only about half of what needs to move, and it has to be done THIS SEASON otherwise MIN cannot do that deal at the TDL because they will be over the cap limit. Moving guys in the off season won't help them with the deal you propose. They’ll have cap space to only keep one of Miller or Boeser long-term. But if they grab them both as rentals for a playoff run; then you’re forgetting there’s no salary cap for the playoffs! Just ask Tampa Bay lol. Pearson is no slower than he was when we traded for him. Woo was taken just outside the 1st round and is a blue chip D prospect; he has crossover agility, a quick stride, a feisty physical edge, and has already matched his AHL point totals of 5 from his rookie season in Utica, this season in Abbotsford in 15 less games. It’s also very easy to re-sign Horvat now and involve him in a trade for 1st overall later. And you’re dreaming if you think one of who likely will be Arizona, Chicago, Ottawa, San Jose, or Seattle doesn’t want to bite at.. Horvat DiPietro or Silovs Woo 1st VAN 1st NJD 1st MIN But if not make it one of Pettersson or Hughes and NJDs or MINs 1st for 1st overall; and grab Connor Bedard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appleboy Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 If thy decided to burn this down they have fair amount of valuable assets that could be turned into assets The owners will not allow that to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appleboy Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 I could see one of Horvat or Miller being moved. Plus Boeser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTramFan Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 5 hours ago, ZH96 said: They’ll have cap space to only keep one of Miller or Boeser long-term. But if they grab them both as rentals for a playoff run; then you’re forgetting there’s no salary cap for the playoffs! Just ask Tampa Bay lol. I think you have forgotten that the 2022 TDL is 21st March and the playoffs don't start until 2nd May. So MIN cannot take on both Miller and Boeser without clearing another $5m in cap space prior to the 2022 TDL. Anyway they won't be able to keep either of them long term for reasons stated above, so I cannot see them being interested in the trade. 5 hours ago, ZH96 said: Pearson is no slower than he was when we traded for him. Woo was taken just outside the 1st round and is a blue chip D prospect; he has crossover agility, a quick stride, a feisty physical edge, and has already matched his AHL point totals of 5 from his rookie season in Utica, this season in Abbotsford in 15 less games. Pearson has regressed each year in VAN despite being gifted top minutes with Horvat and valuable PP time: 2019-20 - 45 pts in 69 games (0.65 pt/gp) 2020-21 - 18 pts in 51 games (0.35 pt/gp) 2021-22 - 7 pts in 22 games (0.31 pt/gp) He is an anchor. Ask someone who supports another team on Capfriendly what you would get back in a trade for Pearson. They will laugh at you and tell you you will have to add a high pick as a sweetener to move him. No team wants him at $3.25m for 3 years! Seriously. Also Woo is not on any list of the top 100 prospects in the NHL. He is not blue chip. He MAY become an NHL player, but just as much chance he doesn't. 5 hours ago, ZH96 said: It’s also very easy to re-sign Horvat now and involve him in a trade for 1st overall later. And you’re dreaming if you think one of who likely will be Arizona, Chicago, Ottawa, San Jose, or Seattle doesn’t want to bite at.. Horvat DiPietro or Silovs Woo 1st VAN 1st NJD 1st MIN I'm not dreaming mate, I am quite lucid thank you very much. Horvat will be a 28 year old UFA looking at around $7m x 7 years minimum. There's every chance he doesn't sign in VAN before the 2023 TDL and explores the UFA market to keep his options open, esp if he gets wind that VAN is just going to sign and trade him. Even with Horvat signed, I believe its sketchy to think that the above offer is a slam dunk deal for Bedard. Could it work? Yes maybe. But too much risk to pin your entire rebuild on imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMHockey Posted November 30, 2021 Author Share Posted November 30, 2021 5 minutes ago, BigTramFan said: I think you have forgotten that the 2022 TDL is 21st March and the playoffs don't start until 2nd May. So MIN cannot take on both Miller and Boeser without clearing another $5m in cap space prior to the 2022 TDL. Anyway they won't be able to keep either of them long term for reasons stated above, so I cannot see them being interested in the trade. Pearson has regressed each year in VAN despite being gifted top minutes with Horvat and valuable PP time: 2019-20 - 45 pts in 69 games (0.65 pt/gp) 2020-21 - 18 pts in 51 games (0.35 pt/gp) 2021-22 - 7 pts in 22 games (0.31 pt/gp) He is an anchor. Ask someone who supports another team on Capfriendly what you would get back in a trade for Pearson. They will laugh at you and tell you you will have to add a high pick as a sweetener to move him. No team wants him at $3.25m for 3 years! Seriously. Also Woo is not on any list of the top 100 prospects in the NHL. He is not blue chip. He MAY become an NHL player, but just as much chance he doesn't. I'm not dreaming mate, I am quite lucid thank you very much. Horvat will be a 28 year old UFA looking at around $7m x 7 years minimum. There's every chance he doesn't sign in VAN before the 2023 TDL and explores the UFA market to keep his options open, esp if he gets wind that VAN is just going to sign and trade him. Even with Horvat signed, I believe its sketchy to think that the above offer is a slam dunk deal for Bedard. Could it work? Yes maybe. But too much risk to pin your entire rebuild on imo. You might be dreaming because I’m going to show you some quick math in the haul we’ll get from the Wild ;). MIN current cap space = $2,960,534 plus Fiala, Bjugstad, Rask to VAN = $9,100,000 equals MIN cap space = $12,060,535 minus Miller & Boeser from VAN = $935,535 equals MIN post-Miller & Boeser Trade cap space = $935,535 As for the value layout IMO… J.T. Miller = K.Fiala, V.Rask, 7th B.Boeser = N.Bjugstad, 1st, (Con.)2nd By the way you’re really underrating Woo who many have compared to Bieksa. And I showed you flat out how he’s significantly improving every season. I don’t care what other clueless fans think of Pearson who you also underrate. Facts are is he’s a Stanley Cup ring bearing, big bodied winger with decent speed and a heavy shot. Who also is a very mature leader and teammate. You say he’s regressed every season yet you wrote it out yourself how he’s played less games every season so that’s why he has less points LOL. Everyone knew he was overperforming in a career year in 2019-20 with 45 points in 69 games. In 2020-21 everyone was off as it was a 56 game season for one, secondly our entire team contracted the worst Covid-19 strain so… Besides 18 points in 51 games is still decent as overall that’s a Stanley Cup experienced big bodied veteran leader winger scoring at a 25-30 point pace while having Covid-19 in his system. for just under $3.5 Million. This season is only a quarter way through and the entire team is trying to align their skillsets to a good system. As for Horvat in a trade for 1st overall that is very realistic and as I already said it not due to his UFA status; than offer Pettersson or Hughes and a 1st for 1st overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTramFan Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 (edited) On 11/28/2021 at 10:58 PM, ZH96 said: To Wild: F J.T. Miller W Brock Boeser To Canucks: W Kevin Fiala F Nick Bjugstad 1st Round Draft Pick 2023 1st Round Draft Pick 2024 2nd Round Draft Pick 2024 Your original trade did not include Rask (reposted above for your information). And what has happened to the other 1st round pick? There's no way VAN trades Miller + Boeser for Fiala, Rask, Bjugstad, plus a 1st, 2nd and 7th round pick. Edited November 30, 2021 by BigTramFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMHockey Posted November 30, 2021 Author Share Posted November 30, 2021 Just now, BigTramFan said: Your original trade did not include Rask. You helped me sort out the cap my friend. Be the Gilman to my Gillis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 No thanks. Here is an easier read and more effective plan Hire Igor Larionov as club President Let him decide who he wants as GM. Let him and the GM decide on the rest of the front office staff and the Head Coach. Let the head coach pick their assistants. … you know, people doing their jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMHockey Posted December 11, 2021 Author Share Posted December 11, 2021 On 11/28/2021 at 3:16 AM, Drakrami said: So why has he regressed this season? All phenoms do better each year. (not saying hes bad, but I have my doubts) This is for you and everyone else that had ridiculous criticism of Bedard a few weeks ago. Looks like the kid is picking it up once again. As he does on every team and in every tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanP Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 On 11/28/2021 at 3:12 AM, Underdog7 said: Bedard is only 16 and already 5’9, 181 Lbs. His frame is going to be like a Crosby for his style (5’11, 200 Lbs). Not to mention what does Bedards frame have to do with anything? The kid can and will carry whatever team he lands on to contender status. First player in WHL history to get exceptional status. 28 points in 15 games in his first season as a rookie 15 year old playing against 18-20 year old beasts. And a pretty damn good sophomore slump right now with 15 points in 20 games. This kid might even be better than McDavid. Bud, being 5’9” at 16 doesn’t mean he will be 5’11” in the future. Let me tell you a story. I was 6’2” volleyball prodigy at 15 years old. Guess what - I’m now 6’2” 52 year old man lol. People stop growing at different times in their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMHockey Posted December 12, 2021 Author Share Posted December 12, 2021 4 hours ago, RomanP said: Bud, being 5’9” at 16 doesn’t mean he will be 5’11” in the future. Let me tell you a story. I was 6’2” volleyball prodigy at 15 years old. Guess what - I’m now 6’2” 52 year old man lol. People stop growing at different times in their lives. Most people grow continuously well past the age of 16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanP Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 8 hours ago, Underdog7 said: Most people grow continuously well past the age of 16. Define “most people”. I know quite a few who stopped growing at 16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMHockey Posted December 12, 2021 Author Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 hour ago, RomanP said: Define “most people”. I know quite a few who stopped growing at 16. Like 90% of normal human beings… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMHockey Posted December 12, 2021 Author Share Posted December 12, 2021 @mrturkish Are you laughing at the fact that I already got five of those staff ideas correct? Benning, Weisbrod, Wall, Green, Baumgartner all actually relieved! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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