Trading Elite Players in their Prime -- Are we expecting too much?

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, cuporbust said:

Unless Miller really is a serious locker room issue, I don't understand trading him at all. OP has some great examples of why we shouldn't.  

It's all fear based.   Fear of him signing a massive contract he won't live up to is pretty realistic really.   And even worse fear of losing him for nothing.    Good grief we just went through 8 years of JB and some of MG where they weren't willing to either left their players go for nothing - or go for nothing and both sides made this, well "8 long years".   Have people already forgotten this just because we have 3 legit top six C's and don't want to give up on that?  Man if we were a contender i'd be saying and beating the re-sign Miller drum harder then anyone.   But we are not.   Kind of.  Bruce Boudreau muddies the waters a little .,, so for that i say good job too.    
 

My position is this:   the team doesn't need to sh!t or get off the pot with Miller.    There is still a chance at playoffs this year and we can still rent him or trade him at the draft or next years TDL.   Unless teams get into a bidding war for him and offer up stuff we just should be taking, don't trade him.   This is the catbird seat Allvin is with one of our players.   Don't do anything stupid i suppose is the smartest thing to do - IF we get a great offer - take it.   If not well let's see what this team can do next year.   I still have faith. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

9 hours ago, IBatch said:

Al-Mac and Pronger tough to beat ... later Neidermayer and Pronger - when those guys are on the ice for 30 minutes a game it sure makes it easy for their teammates and the goalie.    I also remember Zubov being the Rangers leading scorer in 94.     Wherever Coffey went it seemed those teams ended up doing well...Detroit was a Western powerhouse for years before they won a cup, and he was part of that ... of course part of PIT and EDM too.   Second best offensive defenseman ever and he kept it up almost right into the end which included dead puck era years.    Orr with good knees would have had a tough time doing that.   Potvin couldn't but do get 19 consecutive playoff series doesn't make it easy on the body.     Those three guys and Borque are my personal top four list all-time.    Coffey gets a bad rap but come one look at how effective he was at scoring!    He actually matched Orr year to year and not to discredit Orr but the WHA had a lot of the talent back then too.   Doubling the leagues size had a lot to do with the explosion of points in the early 70's too.    Coffey played his entire career with the best of the best - WHA came in which gave the talent back to the NHL....four teams worth that is.    Orr, Potvin, Borque, Coffey would be my ranking...Lidstrom ugh.   Pretty nice to have a lockout.   And the best of the older era who he couldn't beat age out.  

 

Edit:  Know this won't be popular, but to me Lidstrom was just the best at the time - although Pronger and Niedermayer were still around for some of it.    I see Larry Murphy and Lidstrom as pretty close peers. Wasn't even the best D on his own teams in the 90's....

 

I'm with you that Lidstrom gets ranked too high on the all-time defenseman lists, though I still rank him very high.  People having him ahead of everybody but Orr though is a good handful of spots above where I would have him.

 

I think I go Orr, Coffey and then some combination of Bourque, Potvin, Shore and Harvey.  And I can't really give that intelligent an opinion of Shore and Harvey...I mean, maybe I would think they were better than Orr, or maybe I would think they weren't as good as Lidstrom if I had been at the games.  Then it's kind of hard to start ordering Robinson, Leetch, MacInnis, Lidstrom, etc.  I never really know where to put Langway, he was such an anomaly as the one guy singled out to win Norris trophies without scoring points.  In a different timeline, could a guy like Brad McCrimmon or Brad Marsh somehow have attracted that kind of spotlight and press and run away with it as well...

 

And yeah the drop from Orr and Coffey to whoever was the third best offensive defenseman of all time is bigger than the drop from Gretzky and Lemieux to whoever would be third (Yzerman, Esposito, Jagr, etc.).  Coffey also got more points in a season than any forward ever did playing with Gretzky in Edmonton.  Kurri and Messier never matched his high water mark.

 

Doug Wilson and Bob Murray in Chicago was another decent pair of d-men that could rack up some points.  Borje Salming and Ian Turnbull.  Barry Beck and Ron Greschner.

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[Kevin Biestra]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

It's all fear based.   Fear of him signing a massive contract he won't live up to is pretty realistic really.   And even worse fear of losing him for nothing.    Good grief we just went through 8 years of JB and some of MG where they weren't willing to either left their players go for nothing - or go for nothing and both sides made this, well "8 long years".   Have people already forgotten this just because we have 3 legit top six C's and don't want to give up on that?  Man if we were a contender i'd be saying and beating the re-sign Miller drum harder then anyone.   But we are not.   Kind of.  Bruce Boudreau muddies the waters a little .,, so for that i say good job too.    
 

My position is this:   the team doesn't need to sh!t or get off the pot with Miller.    There is still a chance at playoffs this year and we can still rent him or trade him at the draft or next years TDL.   Unless teams get into a bidding war for him and offer up stuff we just should be taking, don't trade him.   This is the catbird seat Allvin is with one of our players.   Don't do anything stupid i suppose is the smartest thing to do - IF we get a great offer - take it.   If not well let's see what this team can do next year.   I still have faith. 

 

The whole Virtanen fiasco - everything from trading McCann instead right through to re-signing him and losing Tanev and Toffoli - was fear based.  The organization has lived in perpetual terror of losing the next Cam Neely for 35 years.  In the end we lost McCann, Toffoli and Tanev and then Virtanen shriveled on the vine before cutting the vine himself with his own weiner.

 

People keep downplaying McCann.  The guy already has 20 goals this season.  That would make him the Canucks team leader with room to spare.

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I'm with you that Lidstrom gets ranked too high on the all-time defenseman lists, though I still rank him very high.  People having him ahead of everybody but Orr though is a good handful of spots above where I would have him.

 

I think I go Orr, Coffey and then some combination of Bourque, Potvin, Shore and Harvey.  And I can't really give that intelligent an opinion of Shore and Harvey...I mean, maybe I would think they were better than Orr, or maybe I would think they weren't as good as Lidstrom if I had been at the games.  Then it's kind of hard to start ordering Robinson, Leetch, MacInnis, Lidstrom, etc.  I never really know where to put Langway, he was such an anomaly as the one guy singled out to win Norris trophies without scoring points.  In a different timeline, could a guy like Brad McCrimmon or Brad Marsh somehow have attracted that kind of spotlight and press and run away with it as well...

 

And yeah the drop from Orr and Coffey to whoever was the third best offensive defenseman of all time is bigger than the drop from Gretzky and Lemieux to whoever would be third (Yzerman, Esposito, Jagr, etc.).  Coffey also got more points in a season than any forward ever did playing with Gretzky in Edmonton.  Kurri and Messier never matched his high water mark.

 

Doug Wilson and Bob Murray in Chicago was another decent pair of d-men that could rack up some points.  Borje Salming and Ian Turnbull.  Barry Beck and Ron Greschner.

 

 

 

Yes Robinson is another beast id have ahead of Lidstrom.   But do think he's in the conversation with Robinson and Al Mac on who comes next (after Harvey and Shore)....Shore would have won 10-11 Norris trophies has they existed back then.   A few old timers left to have Harvey right near the top.   Lidstrom was great don't get me wrong, and glad a lot of folks got to see him that are around now.   But really do believe that the quality of competition took a nose dive ... 

Edited February 18, 2022 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

10 hours ago, IBatch said:

Yes Robinson is another beast id have ahead of Lidstrom.   But do think he's in the conversation with Robinson and Al Mac on who comes next (after Harvey and Shore)....Shore would have won 10-11 Norris trophies has they existed back then.   A few old timers left to have Harvey right near the top.   Lidstrom was great don't get me wrong, and glad a lot of folks got to see him that are around now.   But really do believe that the quality of competition took a nose dive ... 

 

The competition back then - late 70s to mid 90s - was stellar.  It says something that nobody ever really talks about Doug Wilson, Randy Carlyle, or Gary Suter...or just barely mention Borje Salming, Mark Howe and Rod Langway, and that's just Hall of Famers, Norris Trophy winners and 800 point defensemen from that time.  Never mind the ones that would be high paid stars today and aren't mentioned at all...Reed Larson, Dave Babych, Jeff Brown, Steve Chiasson, Doug Crossman, Charlie Huddy, Brad McCrimmon, Barry Beck, Paul Reinhart, Ian Turnbull, Mike Ramsey, Ron Greschner, Steve Duchesne, Tom Kurvers, Steve Smith, Uwe Krupp, Teppo Numminen, Fredrik Olausson, Stefan Persson, Dave Ellett, Al Iafrate...  At the very least they'd have been locking down those Christian Ehrhoff retirement contracts.

 

I think Barry Beck / Ron Greschner / Reijo Ruotsalainen were all on the Rangers at the same time.  That's a pretty dangerous 1-2-3.

 

Actually they had James Patrick as well for a 1-2-3-4.

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

13 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

The competition back then - late 70s to mid 90s - was stellar.  It says something that nobody ever really talks about Doug Wilson, Randy Carlyle, or Gary Suter...or just barely mention Borje Salming, Mark Howe and Rod Langway, and that's just Hall of Famers, Norris Trophy winners and 800 point defensemen from that time.  Never mind the ones that would be high paid stars today and aren't mentioned at all...Reed Larson, Dave Babych, Jeff Brown, Steve Chiasson, Doug Crossman, Charlie Huddy, Brad McCrimmon, Barry Beck, Paul Reinhart, Ian Turnbull, Mike Ramsey, Ron Greschner, Steve Duchesne, Tom Kurvers, Steve Smith, Uwe Krupp, Teppo Numminen, Fredrik Olausson, Stefan Persson, Dave Ellett, Al Iafrate...  At the very least they'd have been locking down those Christian Ehrhoff retirement contracts.

 

I think Barry Beck / Ron Greschner / Reijo Ruotsalainen were all on the Rangers at the same time.  That's a pretty dangerous 1-2-3.

 

Actually they had James Patrick as well for a 1-2-3-4.

 

 

 

You bet.   The last group of guys in their 30's only really had EK (pre Cooke's achilles' tendon severing foot stomp), and a couple seasons of Burns (which Wilson, Babych and a lot of others actually did in the 70's-90's - as in had a couple of great seasons) looked to have the chops to match similar levels.    The game is for sure faster now without a redline and rule enforcement to limit contact.   Doughty, Letang ... pretty good too but not really the same.    I'm really excited to see a large group of young D's that look to have what some of the HHOFers also had...QHs, Heiskanen, Dahlin, Fox, Makar etc gives me a lot of hope things could go full circle.    It's pretty easy to balance save percentage.   If Orr, Potvin and Coffey were getting 130ish points against guys that has .888-900sp, and EK was scoring 80 against .910 .... well just times it by .988 and it gives you a number.     215 x .988 what's that for Wayne?    We haven't seen anyone like Orr, Wayne, Potvin, Coffey and Mario since they played the game.   EK was the closest - only Orr, Potvin, Coffey were top ten in scoring 3 times or more like EK was ... to me his injuries screwed up what could of ended out as on heck of a career.   He should be playing his best hockey right now .... instead his best days are behind him already. 

 

Edit: Hedman too.  Which is a little like this generations Robinson.   

Edited February 18, 2022 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

8 hours ago, IBatch said:

You bet.   The last group of guys in their 30's only really had EK (pre Cooke's achilles' tendon severing foot stomp), and a couple seasons of Burns (which Wilson, Babych and a lot of others actually did in the 70's-90's - as in had a couple of great seasons) looked to have the chops to match similar levels.

 

Larry Robinson played effectively to 40 and had 40 points in 53 games at 36.  As we all know Ray Bourque was a 1st team All Star at 40 when he retired.  I wonder what he could have achieved if he had played out the string until they sent him home like Coffey.  I think he had at least another 150 points in him if he had wanted.  And I still think they pulled the plug too early on Coffey, just like AV did to Linden in his final year with all the healthy scratches.

[IBatch]

44 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Larry Robinson played effectively to 40 and had 40 points in 53 games at 36.  As we all know Ray Bourque was a 1st team All Star at 40 when he retired.  I wonder what he could have achieved if he had played out the string until they sent him home like Coffey.  I think he had at least another 150 points in him if he had wanted.  And I still think they pulled the plug too early on Coffey, just like AV did to Linden in his final year with all the healthy scratches.

I think every single fan of hockey enjoyed watching Ray Borque lifting the cup.   The Detroit/AVs rivalry was the best in sports in the 90's...and it carried over for a little while in the early 2000's as well.   For 7 consecutive years it was either them or Detroit who that made it to the conference final, and often they had to play each other on the way to the cup (and then NJ lol)....Borque for sure still had some good hockey left, it was sure nice to see him leave the sport as a key contributor still.   Borque gets ranked behind Lidstrom ..... just silliness right there, he entered the sport an all-star and exited still a blue chipper and a hero.   Out played him in him most of his 30's, while he was in his 20's...Borque to me is a lot like Potvin, just about as a complete defensemen as you can ever hope for.   On AV ... it bugged me too. Linden outshone the Sedins during the Luongo Turco battle and Naslund in the bottom six.   

[Kevin Biestra]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

I think every single fan of hockey enjoyed watching Ray Borque lifting the cup.   The Detroit/AVs rivalry was the best in sports in the 90's...and it carried over for a little while in the early 2000's as well.   For 7 consecutive years it was either them or Detroit who that made it to the conference final, and often they had to play each other on the way to the cup (and then NJ lol)....Borque for sure still had some good hockey left, it was sure nice to see him leave the sport as a key contributor still.   Borque gets ranked behind Lidstrom ..... just silliness right there, he entered the sport an all-star and exited still a blue chipper and a hero.   Out played him in him most of his 30's, while he was in his 20's...Borque to me is a lot like Potvin, just about as a complete defensemen as you can ever hope for.   On AV ... it bugged me too. Linden outshone the Sedins during the Luongo Turco battle and Naslund in the bottom six.   

 

Yeah I remember the summer before his last season the Canucks weren't even that interested but then Calgary tried to sign Linden (foreshadowing the Calgary Canucks of the last few seasons) and then the Canucks were like "oh fine" and gave him a one year deal.  I think he still had at least one year of bottom six hockey left in him at the end but the team was done.  Now Stan Smyl was a guy who played until he had absolutely nothing left in the tank.

 

I told this story in another thread so you've probably read it, but nobody else seems to actually remember this event...

 

In Trevor Linden's final season, where he got healthy scratched twentysomething times, he was in the lineup during the season and on the penalty kill.  The other team had a 5-on-3 for either a full two minutes or close to it.  Linden went out and killed the first minute or so as the only forward and then there was a stoppage in play.  Linden skated back to the bench, exhausted, and then Vigneault looked up and down the bench for a better option and sent Linden back to take the faceoff.  It's the only time I've ever seen a standing ovation for player deployment on a penalty kill.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Kevin Biestra