Trading Elite Players in their Prime -- Are we expecting too much?

[IBatch]

4 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I never said that.  I don't know.  But that's more or less what we did in the off season.

 

And then we did it again for Garland and OEL.

 

 

Ask someone for examples, provide them and then the goal posts widen or change lol.    "It's cap era" is the one that made me chuckle the most, like for some reason the first decade of the cap era didn't count... 

Edited February 11, 2022 by IBatch

[13231]

1 minute ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I never said that.  I don't know.  But that's more or less what we did in the off season.

I hear what you're saying but my original question pertained to asking for an equivalent example we could reference for a potential Miller trade, given similar circumstances. Imo neither the Scheider/9oa pick or the OEL & Garland trades match in context with what we're discussing with Miller and our team's position at this moment. I would be interested to know of a trade from the past that mirrors our situation right now, that helped a team in our position long term, because I honestly cannot think of one in the cap era. @IBatch

[IBatch]

15 hours ago, canuckleheads fan said:

I don't know why everybody's in such a hurry to trade Miller.  I trust Bieksa when he said that guys like Miller don't come along very often, he's a great combination of size, skill, compete and leadership.  He's like the team's Swiss Army knife, he plays PP1, PK, and C1 minutes.  There is no real need to trade him, he's under a very team friendly contract next year too, so don't be in a hurry.  Teams know that Jim's taking offers, but unless the offer is so one-sided from a team desperate to shore up the middle for a cup run that they'll give us EXACTLY what we want (I'd say a #1, a top prospect, and a current top 9 forward with upside potential, then no.  He can be moved at the draft or he can be moved next year if we have to.  The guys they have to move are Boeser while he still has some value before his qualifying offer, Halak and maybe Hamonic now that the last two seem to be superfluous.

If he wasn't so darn good, then he wouldn't be trade bait.   Of course if he was signed longer this wouldn't even be a topic too.    And like that Rutherford commented that there are other ways to make this work.   20 or so teams want or need a player like Miller right now, us included.     But we aren't trading Poolman, Dickenson, etc to make it work either.   Brock maybe yes....he was our best forward last season - would be a bit of a shame to give up on him.   And come on guys if Miller is going to cost us 8.5-9 to keep?  We are at a distinct disadvantage ... he's a US player and even the most taxed us teams - CAli and NY ones, that's still a 6-10% margin of take home pay we'd have to match.   So 7.8 compared to 8.6.... It won't age that well.   

[13231]

3 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Ask someone for examples, provide them and then the goal posts widen or change lol.    "It's cap era" is the one that made me chuckle the most, like for some reason the first decade of the cap era didn't count... 

Who said the first decade didn't count? I appreciate the examples @Kevin Biestra gave, that was some amazing knowledge that I had no idea of myself. What makes me chuckle though is disregarding the trends and workings of the NHL of more recent years and simply deducing that to "moving the goalpost". The game and management styles are changing every year, it's not a bad idea to measure potential trades by current metrics while also reflecting on the distant past. 

[IBatch]

6 minutes ago, 13231 said:

I hear what you're saying but my original question pertained to asking for an equivalent example we could reference for a potential Miller trade, given similar circumstances. Imo neither the Scheider/9oa pick or the OEL & Garland trades match in context with what we're discussing with Miller and our team's position at this moment. I would be interested to know of a trade from the past that mirrors our situation right now, that helped a team in our position long term, because I honestly cannot think of one in the cap era. @IBatch

Duchene was traded twice all by himself.   The first one got COL the best odds for first overall - that would be the best case scenario for Miller.   Trade him to SJ.   And ask for a 2023 pick and hope they crash and burn. 

[IBatch]

10 minutes ago, 13231 said:

Who said the first decade didn't count? I appreciate the examples @Kevin Biestra gave, that was some amazing knowledge that I had no idea of myself. What makes me chuckle though is disregarding the trends and workings of the NHL of more recent years and simply deducing that to "moving the goalpost". The game and management styles are changing every year, it's not a bad idea to measure potential trades by current metrics while also reflecting on the distant past. 

Duchene.   That's not very distant.   And you can bet Miller is going to demand at least 8 x 8 to stay as well...that's what he got correct? 

Edited February 11, 2022 by IBatch

[thrago]

On 2/7/2022 at 11:34 AM, HKSR said:

So a bunch of you clearly want to trade Miller right now while he's just entering his prime. 

 

Out of curiosity, who else can you think of that was traded in their prime and was hugely beneficial for their team?

 

Ryan O'Reilly?  When he was traded from Colorado, he was 24 and yet to break out.  When he was traded from Buffalo, he landed Buffalo--  Sobotka, Berglund, Thompson and a 1st (Ryan Johnson)

 

Martin St Louis?  Nope, he was traded at the age of 38 years old (I was actually a bit surprised when I read this too lol).

 

Mark Stone?  For Lindberg, Brannstrom and a 2nd (Egor Sokolov) ... still a bit early, but man, that doesn't look good.

 

Matt Duchene at 26yo?  For Turris, Hammond, Bowers, Round 1 (Byram), Round 3 (Stienburg) ... if Byram doesn't get his concussion issues under control, this doesn't look good.

Matt Duchene at 28yo?  For Davidsson, Abramov, Round 1 (Lassi Thomson) ... yikes...

 

Max Pacioretty?  Tatar, Suzuki, 2nd (Fagemo) ... this looked a lot better a little while ago, but it's not looking so great anymore. 

 

Can you think of a player traded in their prime where the return actually benefited the team that much? 

 

Might be good to temper our expectations of a JT Miller trade.  I think we may be setup for disappointment. 

 

Trevor Linden for Bertuzzi, McCabbe and a 2nd (Ruuttu)  it set this team up for success for 20 years.

[13231]

4 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Duchene was traded twice all by himself.   The first one got COL the best odds for first overall - that would be the best case scenario for Miller.   Trade him to SJ.   And ask for a 2023 pick and hope they crash and burn. 

I highly doubt SJ trades their first this year for Miller given their cap situation and the fact they are not contenders, factored in with the players they still have to sign. That is just wishful thinking. I also doubt any teams that are in a position to trade for Miller even come close to what CDC is expecting (A high first or an undisputed tier 1 prospect+picks). I also doubt Miller even gets moved this trade deadline. If he does, it will probably be at the draft. 

 

I'm all for keeping Miller, but if he does get traded, I hope it's for a return that doesn't have us struggle without what he brings to the team, while we wait and hope for the players we get in exchange to develop into impact players. That is a higher risk move than keeping Miller, and building around what we already have as a team. And before the "we are up against the cap" argument, it is much easier to get rid of dead cap than it is to develop players of Miller's caliber. I'll lastly say that if Miller and the team both want him to stay, they will figure out a way to do it, it is not as improbable as many people believe. 

[HKSR]

1 hour ago, thrago said:

Trevor Linden for Bertuzzi, McCabbe and a 2nd (Ruuttu)  it set this team up for success for 20 years.

Many people have identified this trade, but it was in the pre-cap Era when picks and prospects were not worth nearly as much as they are today.

[wai_lai416]

13 hours ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

Picks are practically useless unless they are in top 10.  Even then Joulevi and Virtanen say "Hi".  You can never have enough good centers as they can play wing if needed.  Petterson can't win a faceoff to save his life, he is 150 pounds at best, and having an awful year offensively.  Lets not count our chickens...I assume that's who you have penciled in a 1C.  Not saying he doesn't become one, but it certainly isn't a given.  

 

If you can get Lafreniere and Schneider from NY for Miller and Motte/Schenn or 2nd round pick or whatever it would take then I say fine as both are NHL ready.  But even then its a gamble...

 

Miller is a 1C, leader, excellent at faceoffs, and a physical player who kills penalties.  We are not a 1st round pick or two from picking up a player like that again.  He is a very rare player and the type you build your team around.  

while many considered miller a leader which he is and he's very vocal about it.. he's not a great leader.. he sets terrible examples at times... when things doesn't go his way he sulks on the ice and floats back to the bench... you see this quite often after he turns over the puck in the offensive zone.. instead of rushing back to back check or rush to the bench to change.. and he is lazy with his pass at times espeically in the defensive zone.. he is 2nd on the team in turnover... which usually top 5/6 is dominated by defenseman on almost every team.. he's top 5 in the league for defensive zone giveaway by forwards...4th on the team and #1 by forward by a fair margin... not a good stat for a forward... Miller on most of the playoff contenders is a complimentary piece.. why dont we stick miller with garland or hoglander instead of boeser on that top line with pearson for 10 games or so and let see how miller performs and decide if we should keep him or not.. coz that's who he's going to have to play with if they keep miller and move boeser/garland.. 

 

and really is EP that horrible offensively and is Miller that great offensively? miller have 8 more assist than EP on the powerplay.. if u watch our powerplay.. they tend to overload on the left side where miller plays.. even the bumper play setup for horvat it's usually the ppl on the left side that'll end up with the assist.. the only time he'll get an assist on the pp the way it's setup is either a shot and a rebound or a deflection... and 5v5 miller only plays with boeser.. EP been playing up and down the lineup.. goal wise they are almost caught up now.. assist wise since boudreau took over... EP have setup many great scoring chances.. but hoglander podz garland and whoever else he played with couldnt' finish... i can prolly say if EP played with boeser every game since boudreau took over.. and miller playing up and down the lineup with new linemate every 3rd game or so EP would have more points than miller..the players EP played with scored a combine i think 3 goals since jan 1st? and if u watch the game it wasn't from the lack of chance.. it's just from no finish.

[goalie13]

16 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Many people have identified this trade, but it was in the pre-cap Era when picks and prospects were not worth nearly as much as they are today.

It's not that they weren't worth as much, it's that the Islanders GM at the time was Mike Milbury and he is an idiot.

[Harold Drunken]

On 2/9/2022 at 12:17 AM, 13231 said:

Dude you are completely unhinged. I gave you links to check out our stats at ALL strengths within different metrics and you are still ranting about 5v5. You have still not provided a single shred of evidence to support anything you have said. You keep throwing around words like flawed, illogical, insane, etc while basing everything you've said on your own brutal and uneducated subjective opinion. You are the embodiment of the very words you are using because nothing you have said about anything can be quantified. Even if you ignore factual stats, there are still so many holes in your arguments and logic that it would take me another couple of paragraphs to explain those to you and your feeble mind. Take my advice and reflect on the description you've posted under your photo, the most ironic thing I've seen in a while. 

15th best blue line in the league.........

Spoiler

 

[CaptainLinden16]

6 hours ago, Timråfan said:

Just look at the Flames. Andersson, Kylington and Mangiapani from the same draft and neither was top ten. Mangiapane was drafted 166… 23 goals so far compared to Millers 16. 
I assume we could take all three and be glad. 
 

Miller is a leader according to NA but the Canucks has a lot more players than NA. 
Horvat and players like Tanev is much better leaders for a ”team”. 
 

Regarding faceoffs, how can Petey learn that trade if he can’t practise? 

You are confusing the possibility of drafting a good player in a later round with the probability.  Those are two very different things.  It is possible I will win the lottery.  It is beyond unlikely that I will.  

[CaptainLinden16]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

EP isn't 150lbs, wasn't even that when we drafted him (157 i think lol)....closes to 190 then 180 now which is steady improvement.    

 

I get what your saying, Millers don't grow on trees - and it's also why with his cap hit (especially retention) he's extremely valuable right now.    ANY team can afford him with a minor tweak - line 2.65 million cap back.     TO writers were willing to give their two best prospects (including a 2020 15th overall) and Kerfoot (a good middle six C, on a good contract) back for him as an example.    Bad deal for us as all were forwards ...    IF teams get into a bidding war for Miller, who knows what we could get back.    It's also about the cap space we save by not re-signing him.   If our team isn't good enough with him in the lineup.   Well ... that's why we are having these debates.   I get both sides i truly do.   But i don't want "just playoffs" - i want a great team again. 

Its not about just playoffs.  There can only be on winner.  Obsessing about that is also fruitless.  There are 32 other teams doing everything possible to win the cup.  There is a fair amount of luck that is involved in making it happen to.  You can't control everything.  Enjoy the ride and ice the best team possible within reason.  You are right someone blows your socks of then trade anyone.  But Toronto's two best prospects and Kerfoot sounds awful, that makes the team substantially worse. 

 

I don't know if its video games or the media or whatever it is but there is too much focus on "asset management".  We are playing hockey right?  Its not the stock market.  Its not about buying low and selling high on every player.  Its about putting together a team.  A cohesive team where players complement each other.  That is very difficult to do when you are constantly worried about is it time to sell.  When you are getting younger perpetually and drafting best player overall rather than having some kind of conceptualization of what you actually want the team to be, you get a mess.  Young players take a long time to figure out what type of player they are going to be.  If you have a team full of prospects and best players overall in trades and drafts then you just get a random pile of stuff.  This is no way to build a team.  

 

The Canucks are a great example of this.  The defense Hughes-OEL-Rathbone, three similar players all on the left side.  OEL's offense has suffered because Hughes takes his offensive minutes which is fine as he is arguably better but then you are wasting a skill set.  Rathbone is NHL ready but sitting in the minors because we cant giving the protected offensive zone minutes as they are currently all going to Hughes.  This is similar to Karlsson and Burns in SJ.  One of the dumbest things I have ever seen a GM do in my 30 years of watching hockey. 

 

There a lot of good forwards on the team, but they don't play well together.  They aren't good fits. The attack always looks disjointed and way too much one on one play.  The team is desperate for some true playmaking and passing forwards.  Horvat-Miller-Boeser-Petterson all would rather go at a player than pass the puck.  This is why every Canucks coach has had so much unnatural love for Pearson, who is a very limited player, because he actually retrieves pucks and plays well on the boards.  The rest of the top 6 can't be bothered to pay that way.  This team desperately needs a Henrik Sedin.  That maybe the type of player we get in a trade in the draft but maybe it wont as we are always chasing best player available, so its a roulette wheel that maybe turns up another offensive LHD or single minded winger.

 

 

[HKSR]

3 hours ago, 13231 said:

Who said the first decade didn't count? I appreciate the examples @Kevin Biestra gave, that was some amazing knowledge that I had no idea of myself. What makes me chuckle though is disregarding the trends and workings of the NHL of more recent years and simply deducing that to "moving the goalpost". The game and management styles are changing every year, it's not a bad idea to measure potential trades by current metrics while also reflecting on the distant past. 

Exactly.  The goal post has never moved.  I've always indicated, pre-cap era is a lot different because in the cap era, picks and prospects are worth infinitely more than they were before the cap. 

 

Case and point, Linden was having a down season the year he was traded (sold low on him to be honest)... Nevertheless, he landed TWO top tier A-level prospects already with NHL experience and a 3rd round pick.  Could you imagine if JT Miller was on a 45 to 50pt pace right now and we were able to flip him for Laf, Schneider, and a 3rd?  It shows how far the value of picks and prospects have come. 

 

[EternalCanuckFan]

4 minutes ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

Its not about just playoffs.  There can only be on winner.  Obsessing about that is also fruitless.  There are 32 other teams doing everything possible to win the cup.  There is a fair amount of luck that is involved in making it happen to.  You can't control everything.  Enjoy the ride and ice the best team possible within reason.  You are right someone blows your socks of then trade anyone.  But Toronto's two best prospects and Kerfoot sounds awful, that makes the team substantially worse. 

 

I don't know if its video games or the media or whatever it is but there is too much focus on "asset management".  We are playing hockey right?  Its not the stock market.  Its not about buying low and selling high on every player.  Its about putting together a team.  A cohesive team where players complement each other.  That is very difficult to do when you are constantly worried about is it time to sell.  When you are getting younger perpetually and drafting best player overall rather than having some kind of conceptualization of what you actually want the team to be, you get a mess.  Young players take a long time to figure out what type of player they are going to be.  If you have a team full of prospects and best players overall in trades and drafts then you just get a random pile of stuff.  This is no way to build a team.  

 

The Canucks are a great example of this.  The defense Hughes-OEL-Rathbone, three similar players all on the left side.  OEL's offense has suffered because Hughes takes his offensive minutes which is fine as he is arguably better but then you are wasting a skill set.  Rathbone is NHL ready but sitting in the minors because we cant giving the protected offensive zone minutes as they are currently all going to Hughes.  This is similar to Karlsson and Burns in SJ.  One of the dumbest things I have ever seen a GM do in my 30 years of watching hockey. 

 

There a lot of good forwards on the team, but they don't play well together.  They aren't good fits. The attack always looks disjointed and way too much one on one play.  The team is desperate for some true playmaking and passing forwards.  Horvat-Miller-Boeser-Petterson all would rather go at a player than pass the puck.  This is why every Canucks coach has had so much unnatural love for Pearson, who is a very limited player, because he actually retrieves pucks and plays well on the boards.  The rest of the top 6 can't be bothered to pay that way.  This team desperately needs a Henrik Sedin.  That maybe the type of player we get in a trade in the draft but maybe it wont as we are always chasing best player available, so its a roulette wheel that maybe turns up another offensive LHD or single minded winger.

 

 

Not that Robert Thomas (STL) is available, but given your observations, he might also be the type of player who might compliment the current set of top-6 forwards.  Maybe not quite as effective a forechecker, but he's much more of a distributor than a shooter.

[HKSR]

17 minutes ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

Its not about just playoffs.  There can only be on winner.  Obsessing about that is also fruitless.  There are 32 other teams doing everything possible to win the cup.  There is a fair amount of luck that is involved in making it happen to.  You can't control everything.  Enjoy the ride and ice the best team possible within reason.  You are right someone blows your socks of then trade anyone.  But Toronto's two best prospects and Kerfoot sounds awful, that makes the team substantially worse. 

 

I don't know if its video games or the media or whatever it is but there is too much focus on "asset management".  We are playing hockey right?  Its not the stock market.  Its not about buying low and selling high on every player.  Its about putting together a team.  A cohesive team where players complement each other.  That is very difficult to do when you are constantly worried about is it time to sell.  When you are getting younger perpetually and drafting best player overall rather than having some kind of conceptualization of what you actually want the team to be, you get a mess.  Young players take a long time to figure out what type of player they are going to be.  If you have a team full of prospects and best players overall in trades and drafts then you just get a random pile of stuff.  This is no way to build a team.  

 

The Canucks are a great example of this.  The defense Hughes-OEL-Rathbone, three similar players all on the left side.  OEL's offense has suffered because Hughes takes his offensive minutes which is fine as he is arguably better but then you are wasting a skill set.  Rathbone is NHL ready but sitting in the minors because we cant giving the protected offensive zone minutes as they are currently all going to Hughes.  This is similar to Karlsson and Burns in SJ.  One of the dumbest things I have ever seen a GM do in my 30 years of watching hockey. 

 

There a lot of good forwards on the team, but they don't play well together.  They aren't good fits. The attack always looks disjointed and way too much one on one play.  The team is desperate for some true playmaking and passing forwards.  Horvat-Miller-Boeser-Petterson all would rather go at a player than pass the puck.  This is why every Canucks coach has had so much unnatural love for Pearson, who is a very limited player, because he actually retrieves pucks and plays well on the boards.  The rest of the top 6 can't be bothered to pay that way.  This team desperately needs a Henrik Sedin.  That maybe the type of player we get in a trade in the draft but maybe it wont as we are always chasing best player available, so its a roulette wheel that maybe turns up another offensive LHD or single minded winger.

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, EternalCanuckFan said:

Not that Robert Thomas (STL) is available, but given your observations, he might also be the type of player who might compliment the current set of top-6 forwards.  Maybe not quite as effective a forechecker, but he's much more of a distributor than a shooter.

Yeah, this group of forwards needs a good ol fashioned assist first playmaker.  So many shooters on this team, but no good star distributor.  Who's out there that's available?

 

Anton Lundell!  10g 22a ... man, what would it take to pry him out of Florida?!

Edited February 11, 2022 by HKSR

[CaptainLinden16]

1 hour ago, wai_lai416 said:

while many considered miller a leader which he is and he's very vocal about it.. he's not a great leader.. he sets terrible examples at times... when things doesn't go his way he sulks on the ice and floats back to the bench... you see this quite often after he turns over the puck in the offensive zone.. instead of rushing back to back check or rush to the bench to change.. and he is lazy with his pass at times espeically in the defensive zone.. he is 2nd on the team in turnover... which usually top 5/6 is dominated by defenseman on almost every team.. he's top 5 in the league for defensive zone giveaway by forwards...4th on the team and #1 by forward by a fair margin... not a good stat for a forward... Miller on most of the playoff contenders is a complimentary piece.. why dont we stick miller with garland or hoglander instead of boeser on that top line with pearson for 10 games or so and let see how miller performs and decide if we should keep him or not.. coz that's who he's going to have to play with if they keep miller and move boeser/garland.. 

 

and really is EP that horrible offensively and is Miller that great offensively? miller have 8 more assist than EP on the powerplay.. if u watch our powerplay.. they tend to overload on the left side where miller plays.. even the bumper play setup for horvat it's usually the ppl on the left side that'll end up with the assist.. the only time he'll get an assist on the pp the way it's setup is either a shot and a rebound or a deflection... and 5v5 miller only plays with boeser.. EP been playing up and down the lineup.. goal wise they are almost caught up now.. assist wise since boudreau took over... EP have setup many great scoring chances.. but hoglander podz garland and whoever else he played with couldnt' finish... i can prolly say if EP played with boeser every game since boudreau took over.. and miller playing up and down the lineup with new linemate every 3rd game or so EP would have more points than miller..the players EP played with scored a combine i think 3 goals since jan 1st? and if u watch the game it wasn't from the lack of chance.. it's just from no finish.

Miller takes on the responsibility of making the play.  If the team was better then I would assume he wouldn't be doing this as much.  Making the safe play down 3-0 maybe makes your stats better, but it also does nothing for the team.  You want someone to take risks and take ownership.  Inevitably that won't work out sometimes.  Miller is not a perfect player by any means.  But this is the type of player who will show up in the playoffs, he wants to be the man.  He wants to win more than the rest of the group and it shows. 

 

During his slump you could see EP's body language was terrible.  Like a sad puppy that just wanted to stop playing and go home.  Its natural for people to show emotion or behave badly even.  They are human beings. 

 

You are right that certain assists are circumstantial and based off specific plays that they run, but Miller just does more in every aspect of the game.  He is a more well rounded player right now.  Its not just about the goals and assist or even analytics.  He can change a game with a big hit, he can change the game by blocking a shot on PK, He can change the game by skating through the entire opposing team.  He brings emotion into the game.  The guy has fought Shea Weber! Enough said...

[wai_lai416]

Just now, CaptainLinden16 said:

Miller takes on the responsibility of making the play.  If the team was better then I would assume he wouldn't be doing this as much.  Making the safe play down 3-0 maybe makes your stats better, but it also does nothing for the team.  You want someone to take risks and take ownership.  Inevitably that won't work out sometimes.  Miller is not a perfect player by any means.  But this is the type of player who will show up in the playoffs, he wants to be the man.  He wants to win more than the rest of the group and it shows. 

 

During his slump you could see EP's body language was terrible.  Like a sad puppy that just wanted to stop playing and go home.  Its natural for people to show emotion or behave badly even.  They are human beings. 

 

You are right that certain assists are circumstantial and based off specific plays that they run, but Miller just does more in every aspect of the game.  He is a more well rounded player right now.  Its not just about the goals and assist or even analytics.  He can change a game with a big hit, he can change the game by blocking a shot on PK, He can change the game by skating through the entire opposing team.  He brings emotion into the game.  The guy has fought Shea Weber! Enough said...

Lol lazily throwing blind passes in ur defensive zone have nothing to do with the score.. u mean if they are losing 3-0 instead of passing the puck up the side the *safe play* you throw it up the middle or across the ice so that it have a higher chance of getting picked off? You make those play in the offensive zone ill agree with u.. in the defensive zone he's making those dumb plays coz he's trying to create?? Reaching a bit there.. He doesn't back check hard and he's lazy in his own zone.. and we make fun of mcdavid all the time.. so u know Miller is the type to show up in the playoff and EP and the rest of the team is the type to disappear then? Coz last I checked they had the same amount of points last time they were in. 

 

as for body language u can say the same for 90% of the team when everyone was slumping under green. 

 

When was the last time u hear Miller with a big hit?? He hits... rarely a big one that changes a game.. and block shots changes a game? Then what about the mottes the Dickinson and the defense? Oh and EP is right up there with Miller in blocked shots and he leads the forward in blocked shots the last 3 years. Skating thru entire team great if it works, and if it doesn't you get burn like the Calgary game coz hes too busy sulking. Miller is a great player no doubt but to me he's too selfish of a player and I'd be glad to move him as he doesn't fit the teams window to compete. 

[Timråfan]

1 hour ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

You are confusing the possibility of drafting a good player in a later round with the probability.  Those are two very different things.  It is possible I will win the lottery.  It is beyond unlikely that I will.  

Nope, I realise we don’t need Miller. He tilt the team at the wrong direction if you want Petey on the team.

So I advocate a trade. I take almost anything because Miller is wrong cap-/age-/teamwise.

52 minutes ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

Its not about just playoffs.  There can only be on winner.  Obsessing about that is also fruitless.  There are 32 other teams doing everything possible to win the cup.  There is a fair amount of luck that is involved in making it happen to.  You can't control everything.  Enjoy the ride and ice the best team possible within reason.  You are right someone blows your socks of then trade anyone.  But Toronto's two best prospects and Kerfoot sounds awful, that makes the team substantially worse. 

 

I don't know if its video games or the media or whatever it is but there is too much focus on "asset management".  We are playing hockey right?  Its not the stock market.  Its not about buying low and selling high on every player.  Its about putting together a team.  A cohesive team where players complement each other.  That is very difficult to do when you are constantly worried about is it time to sell.  When you are getting younger perpetually and drafting best player overall rather than having some kind of conceptualization of what you actually want the team to be, you get a mess.  Young players take a long time to figure out what type of player they are going to be.  If you have a team full of prospects and best players overall in trades and drafts then you just get a random pile of stuff.  This is no way to build a team.  

 

The Canucks are a great example of this.  The defense Hughes-OEL-Rathbone, three similar players all on the left side.  OEL's offense has suffered because Hughes takes his offensive minutes which is fine as he is arguably better but then you are wasting a skill set.  Rathbone is NHL ready but sitting in the minors because we cant giving the protected offensive zone minutes as they are currently all going to Hughes.  This is similar to Karlsson and Burns in SJ.  One of the dumbest things I have ever seen a GM do in my 30 years of watching hockey. 

 

There a lot of good forwards on the team, but they don't play well together.  They aren't good fits. The attack always looks disjointed and way too much one on one play.  The team is desperate for some true playmaking and passing forwards.  Horvat-Miller-Boeser-Petterson all would rather go at a player than pass the puck.  This is why every Canucks coach has had so much unnatural love for Pearson, who is a very limited player, because he actually retrieves pucks and plays well on the boards.  The rest of the top 6 can't be bothered to pay that way.  This team desperately needs a Henrik Sedin.  That maybe the type of player we get in a trade in the draft but maybe it wont as we are always chasing best player available, so its a roulette wheel that maybe turns up another offensive LHD or single minded winger.

 

 

Here you have some really good thoughts that shows how bad the forced OEL trade was.

 

Petey and Miller competes of 1st C and the team suffers because of that. 
If Petey is the 1st C the team should build around, Miller is just the painful bandaid that needs to be ripped off how painful it is. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Timråfan