Trading Elite Players in their Prime -- Are we expecting too much?

[grouse747]

Isn't the problem with a JT Miller trade that you only control his rights for 1 season and a couple of months?

 

Then he can sign where he wants with no compensation...

 

Or am I wrong? Serious question (I don't know NHL team structures that well)

[Me_]

On 2/7/2022 at 11:34 AM, HKSR said:

So a bunch of you clearly want to trade Miller right now while he's just entering his prime. 

 

Out of curiosity, who else can you think of that was traded in their prime and was hugely beneficial for their team?

 

Ryan O'Reilly?  When he was traded from Colorado, he was 24 and yet to break out.  When he was traded from Buffalo, he landed Buffalo--  Sobotka, Berglund, Thompson and a 1st (Ryan Johnson)

 

Martin St Louis?  Nope, he was traded at the age of 38 years old (I was actually a bit surprised when I read this too lol).

 

Mark Stone?  For Lindberg, Brannstrom and a 2nd (Egor Sokolov) ... still a bit early, but man, that doesn't look good.

 

Matt Duchene at 26yo?  For Turris, Hammond, Bowers, Round 1 (Byram), Round 3 (Stienburg) ... if Byram doesn't get his concussion issues under control, this doesn't look good.

Matt Duchene at 28yo?  For Davidsson, Abramov, Round 1 (Lassi Thomson) ... yikes...

 

Max Pacioretty?  Tatar, Suzuki, 2nd (Fagemo) ... this looked a lot better a little while ago, but it's not looking so great anymore. 

 

Can you think of a player traded in their prime where the return actually benefited the team that much? 

 

Might be good to temper our expectations of a JT Miller trade.  I think we may be setup for disappointment. 

 

Canucks fans will be thoroughly disappointed with any return for Miller.

 

It makes not one sense to trade Miller.

 

It also makes no sense to trade players in their prime. 
 

That is perpetual rebuilding.

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, grouse747 said:

Isn't the problem with a JT Miller trade that you only control his rights for 1 season and a couple of months?

 

Then he can sign where he wants with no compensation...

 

Or am I wrong? Serious question (I don't know NHL team structures that well)

Yes.   The only thing the Canucks have that other teams don't get is the chance to sign him for 8 years instead of 7.   UFAs are treated the same like that.  The last team that he played with under contract previous to become a full free agent gets that small bargaining chip.  It's a decent system, as long as RFAs aren't also getting paid like them too, that part has been an issue for awhile now. 

[Boudrias]

15 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Did you have any thoughts at the time when they traded Dale Tallon and then Jocelyn Guevremont in quick succession?  Tallon had broken Bobby Orr's record for points by a rookie defenseman, and then Guevremont would have had that record himself if not for Tallon.  In short order the Canucks had divested themselves of what looked like it could have been really something on the back end.  Neither went on to be a Norris winner but they did both score 50 points again for their new teams.

 

And everyone remembers Coffey for his speed - he was darn fast - but I remember him as much for his grace.  Mike Gartner was just as fast but Coffey was almost like...I don't know, 9 parts hockey and one part figure skating while racking up the points.

 

 

My memory is probably faulty but the early Canucks were so easily anticipated. I thought Tallon had a hard go of it as whatever he did was always measured against

Perrault in Buffalo. The early d-core had Quinn which likely helped Talon. The history of the Canucks over 50 years has been a willingness to sacrifice the future in hopes of playoffs. Benning started a rebuild, had some bad luck on dropping positions in the lottery, thought his existing core could be bolsterred by vets, and seemed to vacillate in making  changes that had to be made (Green). That said the drum in media and by the fans has always been playoffs. Watching the Laffer game I think the club is still 2 years away.  

[Kevin Biestra]

5 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

My memory is probably faulty but the early Canucks were so easily anticipated. I thought Tallon had a hard go of it as whatever he did was always measured against

Perrault in Buffalo. The early d-core had Quinn which likely helped Talon. The history of the Canucks over 50 years has been a willingness to sacrifice the future in hopes of playoffs. Benning started a rebuild, had some bad luck on dropping positions in the lottery, thought his existing core could be bolsterred by vets, and seemed to vacillate in making  changes that had to be made (Green). That said the drum in media and by the fans has always been playoffs. Watching the Laffer game I think the club is still 2 years away.  

 

Yeah even the trade of Rick Vaive and Bill Derlago for Tiger Williams was kind of the same thing.  The Canucks circa 1980 really didn't have much reason to think Williams would be the vet that got them over the hump, to the point of giving up two 40-50 goal scorers at once.  It just ended up working out really well for them.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[Boudrias]

2 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah even the trade of Rick Vaive and Bill Derlago was kind of the same thing.  The Canucks circa 1980 really didn't have much reason to think Williams would be the vet that got them over the hump, to the point of giving up two 40-50 goal scorers at once.  It just ended up working out really well for them.

For sure those two and that deal gets forgotten to much. I would point out the obvious with Cam Neely going to Boston for Barry Petersen. Classic Canuck move. 

[Kevin Biestra]

1 hour ago, Boudrias said:

For sure those two and that deal gets forgotten to much. I would point out the obvious with Cam Neely going to Boston for Barry Petersen. Classic Canuck move. 

 

Pederson / Neely was always one that I had mixed feelings about, as opposed to outright disdain for the trade.  Neely really hadn't blossomed into anything like what he would become.  Pederson was only about 4 years older and his first three seasons in the NHL were absolutely amazing.  92 points as a rookie, then 107 and 116.  He had the Calder Trophy in the bag if not for Hawerchuk.

 

Then he ran into his shoulder problems and he went from a 110 point player to a 75 point player.  I think the Canucks were gambling that he was still recovering from the surgery and was on the upswing back to 100 point territory.  It would be interesting to see what level of detail Canucks management and medical staff actually had about his surgeries.  They lost the gamble that he would return to his original form but he still stayed a 70 point player.  If he had regained that form, I think this would have just been viewed as a pretty good trade of one Hall of Fame caliber player for another like Turgeon for Lafontaine or Gartner for Ciccarelli.  Meanwhile Neely took off for the stars and the Canucks have been terrified of trading any potential power forward type ever since...Sandlak, Kassian, Pyatt etc.

 

I just feel bad for Pederson whenever I think about it because he was guaranteed a spot in the Hall of Fame before he ran into his physical problems.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[Boudrias]

5 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Pederson / Neely was always one that I had mixed feelings about, as opposed to outright disdain for the trade.  Neely really hadn't blossomed into anything like what he would become.  Pederson was only about 4 years older and his first three seasons in the NHL were absolutely amazing.  92 points as a rookie, then 107 and 116.  He had the Calder Trophy in the bag if not for Hawerchuk.

 

Then he ran into his shoulder problems and he went from a 110 point player to a 75 point player.  I think the Canucks were gambling that he was still recovering from the surgery and was on the upswing back to 100 point territory.  It would be interesting to see what level of detail Canucks management and medical staff actually had about his surgeries.  They lost the gamble that he would return to his original form but he still stayed a 70 point player.  If he had regained that form, I think this would have just been viewed as a pretty good trade of one Hall of Famer for another like  Turgeon for Lafontaine.  Meanwhile Neely took off for the stars and the Canucks have been terrified of trading any potential power forward type ever since...Sandlak, Kassian, Pyatt, Isbister etc.

 

I just feel bad for Pederson whenever I think about it because he was guaranteed a spot in the Hall of Fame before he ran into his physical problems.

 

 

Also if memory serves Peterson was a center and Neely a winger. Good points.

[Timråfan]

12 hours ago, Me_ said:

Canucks fans will be thoroughly disappointed with any return for Miller.

 

It makes not one sense to trade Miller.

 

It also makes no sense to trade players in their prime. 
 

That is perpetual rebuilding.

Canucks fans… All of them or who do you talk about?

 

Trade players kn their prime. Hmm, I can think of Marky. But he just went and we didn’t get anything. 

[Kevin Biestra]

1 hour ago, Boudrias said:

My memory is probably faulty but the early Canucks were so easily anticipated. I thought Tallon had a hard go of it as whatever he did was always measured against

Perrault in Buffalo. The early d-core had Quinn which likely helped Talon. The history of the Canucks over 50 years has been a willingness to sacrifice the future in hopes of playoffs. Benning started a rebuild, had some bad luck on dropping positions in the lottery, thought his existing core could be bolsterred by vets, and seemed to vacillate in making  changes that had to be made (Green). That said the drum in media and by the fans has always been playoffs. Watching the Laffer game I think the club is still 2 years away.  

 

Did you mean to use a word other than anticipated in the first sentence?  I think I am missing the setup for the rest of the paragraph.

 

Anyway yeah the comparisons to Perreault were unfortunate.  What's crazy is how unrecognized Tallon and the Canucks were overall.  Tallon broke Bobby Orr's record for rookie scoring...and he wasn't even a Calder finalist.  5th place in voting.  Tallon had 56 points as a defenseman, Perreault won the Calder with 72 as a forward.

 

Guevremont...51 points on the blueline the very next season and would himself have now been the record holder...zero Calder votes.  Dave Burrows got Calder votes with 12 points in 77 games.

 

Anyway, Linden wasn't Modano and Kirk Muller wasn't Mario Lemieux, but they both got a bit more of a fair shake.

 

 

[Boudrias]

Three times I have tried replying to you and have been booted off. My point was that the arrival of the Canucks was much anticipated by Vancouver media and fans. IMHO Tallon was taken advantage of and used. 

[Boudrias]

Just now, Boudrias said:

Three times I have tried replying to you and have been booted off. My point was that the arrival of the Canucks was much anticipated by Vancouver media and fans. IMHO Tallon was taken advantage of and used. 

He should have been sheltered by the org more. The fact that Tallon never has been involved in Canuck events suggests he holds a grudge. A shame. 

[Kevin Biestra]

1 hour ago, Boudrias said:

He should have been sheltered by the org more. The fact that Tallon never has been involved in Canuck events suggests he holds a grudge. A shame. 

 

Heh, yeah other than Orland, the 70s teams and their players are pretty underrecognized (save for Quinn and that's all for his coaching and management).  I'd have put Andre Boudrias in the ROH by now.  And done more to recognize Gary Smith as well.  It's too bad that nobody nowadays really know who any of Oddleifson, Lalonde, Ververgaert, Sedlbauer or even Lever and Boudrias are.

 

I guess it happens everywhere to some degree.  I don't know but I get the feeling that Devils fans don't know or care about Glenn Resch nowadays, Sabres fans about Mike Foligno or Danny Gare, Chicago fans about Troy Murray, Red Wings fans about Reed Larson, Boston fans about Mike O'Connell or Barry Pederson for that matter, Penguins fans about Pierre Larouche or Jean Pronovost, etc.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[Boudrias]

59 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Heh, yeah other than Orland, the 70s teams and their players are pretty underrecognized (save for Quinn and that's all for his coaching and management).  I'd have put Andre Boudrias in the ROH by now.  And done more to recognize Gary Smith as well.  It's too bad that nobody nowadays really know who any of Oddleifson, Lalonde, Ververgaert, Sedlbauer or even Lever and Boudrias are.

 

I guess it happens everywhere to some degree.  I don't know but I get the feeling that Devils fans don't know or care about Glenn Resch nowadays, Sabres fans about Mike Foligno or Danny Gare, Chicago fans about Troy Murray, Red Wings fans about Reed Larson, Boston fans about Mike O'Connell, Penguins fans about Pierre Larouche or Jean Pronovost, etc.

 

 

Loved Boudrias of course. Bobby LaLonde's shot, Sedlbauer cranking one off the wing in full flight. Chris Oddleifson, a very solid center. It was like you said earlier, I think, we didn't see these guys much as TV games were few. That is why Robson is such a folklore star. He could create a game for me as I listened late into the night. 

[Kevin Biestra]

7 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Loved Boudrias of course. Bobby LaLonde's shot, Sedlbauer cranking one off the wing in full flight. Chris Oddleifson, a very solid center. It was like you said earlier, I think, we didn't see these guys much as TV games were few. That is why Robson is such a folklore star. He could create a game for me as I listened late into the night. 

 

I really feel like Lalonde should be a bigger part of the folklore.  It's really something that we had a 5'5" guy going around repeatedly getting 20 goals and 50 points in the Broad Street Bullies era of hockey.  He made Ronning look like Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

20 hours ago, Me_ said:

Canucks fans will be thoroughly disappointed with any return for Miller.

 

It makes not one sense to trade Miller.

 

It also makes no sense to trade players in their prime. 
 

That is perpetual rebuilding.

There are so many examples listed on this thread of players that had exactly done to them.    But i get where your coming from - even despite the massive trade tree from Linden. i still hated the trade.    And just for fun think about how Florida traded Jovo for a few brilliant seasons of prime Bure .... another trade i hated.     Would be like Horvat been the best captain and one of the best players all-time and EP well scoring back to back 60 goal seasons plus plus plus plus plus .... a game 7.   And then tearing our hearts out.    On paper that was the best team we've ever had and really it's not even close.    Too bad Messier didn't change his number, fall in line  and backed Linden instead.  Maybe used his experience and influence to help the team keep Bure too.  The Bure/Mogilny show was one we never got to see at the same time.    Messier would have been a great second line C at that stage in his career as well.    Also we traded Peca for Mogilny ... Peca turned out to be quite a bit better then Morrison. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

4 minutes ago, IBatch said:

There are so many examples listed on this thread of players that had exactly done to them.    But i get where your coming from - even despite the massive trade tree from Linden. i still hated the trade.    And just for fun think about how Florida traded Jovo for a few brilliant seasons of prime Bure .... another trade i hated.     Would be like Horvat been the best captain and one of the best players all-time and EP well scoring back to back 60 goal seasons plus plus plus plus plus .... a game 7.   And then tearing our hearts out.    On paper that was the best team we've ever had and really it's not even close.    Too bad Messier didn't change his number, fall in line  and backed Linden instead.  Maybe used his experience and influence to help the team keep Bure too.  The Bure/Mogilny show was one we never got to see at the same time.    Messier would have been a great second line C at that stage in his career as well.    Also we traded Peca for Mogilny ... Peca turned out to be quite a bit better then Morrison. 

 

The Linden trade is also easier to swallow and more revered because he ended up back here anyway.  It was like he agreed to be a rental for a few years.  It could have very easily gone quite differently...parted ways never to return like Dino Ciccarelli and the North Stars, or LaFontaine and the Islanders...where it was just a story that ended abruptly.  And a far worse ending than those.  Linden and the fans still got it all, everyone lining up to shake his hand as a Canuck at the end of his final game, etc.  Everybody got to have their cake and eat it too but not by sole virtue of the initial trade.

 

Messier was such a dick.  Gretzky himself didn't even need an A with the Rangers.

[grouse747]

very very interesting on the tallon/guevremont play/trades...... talon is considered a semi-bust, but now I'm thinking it wasn't fair........ weren't tallon and guevremont technically on Team Canada for the 1972 Canada/Russia series? speaks volumes I think.

 

Cam Neely was never going to play well for Vancouver (although I have seen the argument he was misused).... he was far far better right off the bat in Boston.. suggests maybe hometown pressure got to him.... along similar lines, it seems obvious to me that Jake Virtanen would have done better with another team. how much better I am not sure

 

valve and derlago for williams and butler was appalling (even at the time)......... although TW was very good for marketing and helped get team to Stanley cup finals...... butler even shut down Gretzky one game.... but overall, horrific trade.

 

Rick Martin from Buffalo to LA was the trade that led to restrictions on trading draft picks.

 

you have to remember that with all these trades mentioned, the whole contract situation was different....... I can't remember "real free agency" back then, but I'm not sure...

 

but TODAY, we only hold hornet's and miller's right for the end of this season and next season....... the one thing that partially counteracts that is that horvatt/miller may like some smaller city/young team they are traded to and resign with them. whereas they would never sign with that team outta vancouver.

 

 

[grouse747]

did the 1970s Canucks have any success? i.e. playoffs.... I am old enough to know but didn't live in vancouver at the time.

[Mathew Barzal]

Miller only makes sense if our Cup window is the next 3-4 years, which it isn’t. We are 3-4 years away from even being a threat in the playoffs. Primarily because we are loaded with bloated contracts that have resulted in our horrendous defense. And there’s nothing we can do about it for the foreseeable future.

 

Ship Miller off, he deserves to see playoff action in his prime. Get the absolute haul that GMJR will get for him, and retool into a team with an identity and clear timeline. Benning built this ugly Frankenstein thing with slabs of crap added to a good core.