[PGT] Vancouver Canucks at Washington Capitals | Oct. 17, 2022

[spook007]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

That's one thing i definitely consider an improvement.    3 x 3 OT?  Not really.  Shoot outs absolutely not.   All this onus to get rid of ties .... just didn't work.   Teams play for loser points instead - and every year a couple teams don't get in that deserve too, and a couple teams that deserve too, don't. 

Best thing that happened in soccer was the 3-1-0 point system

 

win 3pts

draw 1pt

lose 0 pt.

 

This forced both teams to go forward in search of a win... 

 

Some teams going to play offs and get seeded, because they are good in shoot outs, is utter nonsense. There is no such thing during the play offs, so why bother.

Is hockey not exciting enough as a game?

[DS4quality]

6 minutes ago, IBatch said:

That's one thing i definitely consider an improvement.    3 x 3 OT?  Not really.  Shoot outs absolutely not.   All this onus to get rid of ties .... just didn't work.   Teams play for loser points instead - and every year a couple teams don't get in that deserve too, and a couple teams  that don't  deserve too, do..  

 

One thing i think they've tried that is just as good as getting rid of the redline, is the play-ins.   Sure hope they consider that - and reel the seasons back to 78-80 games. 

Imagine how many more points Gretzky would have had in 80s without a red line.  

[IBatch]

1 minute ago, spook007 said:

Best thing that happened in soccer was the 3-1-0 point system

 

win 3pts

draw 1pt

lose 0 pt.

 

This forced both teams to go forward in search of a win... 

 

Some teams going to play offs and get seeded, because they are good in shoot outs, is utter nonsense. There is no such thing during the play offs, so why bother.

Is hockey not exciting enough as a game?

My brother has been suggesting this for years.   Not that he wants that either.  I think the dark days of the dead puck era are long gone anyways.   I'm not a fan of expansion.   Because the talent level got so diluted it became ridiculous.   The league had to try and do something which they did do.   It's finally coming back.   Took forever it seems.   When guys like Zubov and Sakic are scoring 71 and 100 points at 37 AFTER the rule changes it says it all, neither were the best of their era's. 

[IBatch]

13 minutes ago, DS4quality said:

Imagine how many more points Gretzky would have had in 80s without a red line.  

Yep.  And id counter, imagine how many points Crosby would have with a Semenko on his wing (others did too after his almost career ending concussion ... enforcers can actually play the game too)..   There is room for both.   Bure lol.   Good god ... Letang said it best "watching Bure was like watching someone shot out of a cannon or a sling shot ... fastest player with the puck ever, and the skills to match"... that generation bred Lindros, Hatcher, Ludwig, forward lines that weighed over 700 lbs lol.   Just silly compared to "Horvat and Miller"...  They are average everyday joes.    And the D's back then good grief, had to be either Housley or Chelios to make it at that size.  One of the most talented D's ever and "Junkyard Dog" that freak fought Tony Twist lol.    And people wonder why, some on this site - see Horvat and wonder why he's so tame.   With those physical gifts.  What's the point of all those reps anyways.

 

Even the more current hockey fans should understand this watching Taylor  Pyatt.   Horvat could use his size a little.  It doesn't have to be all out war either like it used to be.   But a little hate... well Bieksa gets it anyways...i won't get used to the idea of this team being "easy to play against" - or "fun to play against".    Hate Keenan all you want, but he made sure we had some tough SOB's - so did Burke - ... if your not going to be good then why be easy to play against?  Used to be the league norm during a "rebuild".   Now it's just utter and total ugh. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by IBatch

[spook007]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

My brother has been suggesting this for years.   Not that he wants that either.  I think the dark days of the dead puck era are long gone anyways.   I'm not a fan of expansion.   Because the talent level got so diluted it became ridiculous.   The league had to try and do something which they did do.   It's finally coming back.   Took forever it seems.   When guys like Zubov and Sakic are scoring 71 and 100 points at 37 AFTER the rule changes it says it all, neither were the best of their era's. 

Very true...

I was against the changes originally back in the day and found it odd... It started early in the English football league, but FIFA introduced it after the World Cup in 1994 (Wiki is you friend  ). And it did change football. Italian football in particular was strangling offensive football ad it became boring, with both teams playing for a draw. Long story short it became much more offensive.

 

I wonder if the same would happen in hockey, but I've just read the following line on Wiki....

The three-point system in ice hockey – in the Czech Republic, Finland, Germany, Russia, Switzerland and Sweden – had no effect on the number of goals scored. The same conclusion can be made for relative number of ties.

 

So will it do the same for hockey?

 

We may complain about the leads, we have just surrendered 3 games on the trot, but at least we've scored 9 goals in 3 games. So as a spectacle it has not been boring... now we just need to come out with the wins instead of loses, but all this is a bit of a side track...

 

[Kevin Biestra]

14 hours ago, IBatch said:

Think he's talking about linemates.   Gretzky played with Kurri, Messier with Anderson (although both those lines were probably top ten all-time lol, one first the other 8-10) .... Yzerman and Federov also both centers different lines, of course Crosby and Malkin too...Hull and Oates us up there as best too.   Has to be some others ... Lemuiex is a lot like Crosby ... aside from Guentzal who's he played with for awhile that was that good?   Lemuiex had Stevens of course ...but Stevens sure wasn't the same after he left... Gretzky made a PPG guy score 150 one year Bernie Nichols...and Luc Robataille maybe doesn't make the HHOF without some of his boffo seasons playing with Wayne either ... he won 3 Art Ross's and one Hart as a King ... 918 in 539 games lol.   Taylor and Dionne have to be mentioned too.   Dionne was the McKinnon of his era.    

 

Gretzky Kurri is number one ... but single seasons...we'll probably 7 have Gretzky's name on it ?  Gretzky Nichols would be in there somewhere ... Hull and Oats too.  

 

And Gretzky Robataille probably makes the top ten too, had 63ish goals one year with Wayne.    Espo's lines?   Lafluer's?  Howe and Lindsay , Hull and Makita.    Those guys also in the top ten (more then just one season) somewhere.    The Sedins probably end up somewhere in the mid 30's all-time ... with guys like Thornon and Marleau, just the best of their era, which really wasn't that good.   Lecavalier and St.Louis/Richards also would be competing in the 2000's.   Naslund Morrison Bertuzzi,   Healtey Spezza Alfie ...  Well Sakic (Hedjuk?) was still around and broke 100 points at 37 so suppose one of his lines too in the 2000's.   Forsberg.   Maybe him too.   Not all line combos work out like you'd think ... Gretzky Hull sure flopped (by their standards ... how DARE Gretzky get barely 100 points, even if he's 35 and it's the dead puck era!) 

 

For us the production line Linden Ronning Courtnall gets lost a little ... of course Linden Bure doesn't.    Naslund Bertuzzi ... Sedins, easy to remember...don't forget about Sundstrom though (pretty sure he got us McLean too!).   Ovi/Backstrom has to be one of the better recent ones ...

 

Edit: Maybe Biestra can shed some light on other line combos ... Statsny?  His career arc was similar to McDavid's although he broke the iron curtain and started a little later.. Lemuiex/Jagr ... maybe they were the only one that could rival Gretzky and Kurri?    As far as center combo's - Gretzky/Messier,  Lemuiex/Francis,  Yzerman/Federov, Sakic/Forsberg, Crosby/Malkin...anyone else in that range?   

 

Hmmm...yeah Stastny Goulet was pretty badass.  In the WHA there was Bobby Hull and take your pick of Ulf Nilsson or Anders Hedberg.  Real Cloutier and Marc Tardif in the WHA, both got to or almost to 150 points in a season.

 

Canucks...well the Sedins can't really be topped but back in the day whatever mix of Tanti, Skriko, Sundstrom, Pederson, Gradin and Smyl were playing with each other on a given day was good.

 

Oates was good with Neely while they were together for a spell I think.

 

As you mentioned, Gretzky and Bernie Nicholls was monstrous.  And Bernie was a 100 point player on his own, not just a point a game guy to give him some credit.

 

Dionne and Taylor as you said, but Simmer probably had the higher water mark for single seasons compared Taylor.

 

Perreault and Martin or Robert.

 

Gordie Howe and I guess either Delvecchio or Lindsay.

 

Mario Lemieux made absolute beasts out of both Kevin Stevens and Rob Brown.

 

Same with Yzerman and Gerard Gallant in the Rob Brown year, 1989.

 

Bobby Clarke and either Reggie Leach or Bill Barber.

 

Brian Propp and Tim Kerr were up there for the best pair to have up front on a power play.

 

I think Dennis Maruk and Mike Gartner were together for Maruk's beast season in 1982.

 

Bossy and Trottier.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[Dr. Crossbar]

14 hours ago, lmm said:

But we did change 1/2 the coaches over the summer

 

this team does everything backwards and even when it almost works out, like last years push it still comes back and bites us.

Boudreau was hired before Rutherford who then hired Alvin

they said the right things... Rutherford was OK with Bruce, yada

But Bruce also brought in Scott Walker, a really under-appreciated part of last years team, before Rutherford was hired

and then there was Brad Shaw, who some saw as Green's heir apparent

And there was Kyle Gustavson, nobody really knew what he did, but they played well when he was part of Bruce's team

 

Remember when people were happy that Wonkie Willie got to run out his contract, because 'at least we aren't like the Oilers, changing coaches every year'?

With the exception of Ian Clarke and Jason King (how did he escape all the firings?) the Canucks have rolled over their entire staff twice in 6 months

 

It kind of reminds me about how the Canucks fired Mike Sullivan and kept Glen Gulutzan when they fired Torts.

NO one seems to notice that the guy they fired went on to win 2 Stanley Cups   

and Dorrie, what can we say about Dorrie?

 

BUt I look at  the coaching staff right now and I ask, what do they each bring to the table?

who is in charge of the PP?

and who is in charge of the PK?

and who has replaced whatever it was that Scott Walker brought?

It seems to me, after the coaching change that we started to see the value of Brad Shaw, who has replaced that?

 

What they have done, is tinker with what modicum of success they did generate last season

Well, as far the head coach goes, we FINALLY have a good one with the right experience. Say what you will about Bruce, he's a good coach, one of the best, and he's also a likeable players coach, good communicator, a realist who can also hold players accountable. Sure he's got his weaknesses BUT this is where we (he) need better, skilled and experienced assistants. 

 

They made the changes, so we'll see. I'm willing to give Yeo the benefit of the doubt. I'm also a bit surprised that King didn't lose his job. I'd say there's obviously something with him that we're not seeing that management sees. Still, he's on the hot seat the more we struggle so change will be inevitable at some point. 

 

Tbh, we bungled Brad Shaw's time here. He was misused. We all assumed he was brought in for his talent on D but the red flags were there early when Green wanted him more as a general assistant for all areas. Everyone knows his specialty and talents lie in grooming/shaping defense and we completely bungled that ... I'd say in a spectacularly incompetent manner. Even Shaw said himself in an offseason interview that he didn't have direction. Think about that ... we had one of the best detail oriented defensive coaches in the game and we misused him.

 

The more I think about the decision-making of this franchise over the years, a lot of it comes down to incompetence, losing mindset, and inexperience. Just look at the gap between Pat Quinn and Bruce Boudreau ... and think of all the coaches in between. I've had to take a look at my own fan experience when I found myself saying Bruce is my favorite coach since Quinn. That's almost 30 years FFS.

 

And then look at our former personnel who went on to success after their time here. It's mind-boggling.

 

You are right about PP and PK ... who's in charge? 

 

I'm not in favor of a head coaching change. We've got a good one. Last year we blamed the coach, and actually righted the ship after Green. This time, we have to change some of the players. AND ... we now have a President at the helm who's known for trading like crazy when he was a GM.

 

I am confident we'll right the ship over the next few games. We've got too much talent. After last year, we all know the magic number is 25 games and how that plays out.

 

 

[Kevin Biestra]

14 hours ago, IBatch said:

Edit: Maybe Biestra can shed some light on other line combos ... Statsny?  His career arc was similar to McDavid's although he broke the iron curtain and started a little later.. Lemuiex/Jagr ... maybe they were the only one that could rival Gretzky and Kurri?    As far as center combo's - Gretzky/Messier,  Lemuiex/Francis,  Yzerman/Federov, Sakic/Forsberg, Crosby/Malkin...anyone else in that range?   

 

Oh yeah and you mentioned center combos...

 

Maybe...

 

Doug Gimour / Joe Nieuwendyk on the Flames

 

Not quite on par with your examples but pretty solid, as was Federko / Gilmour in St. Louis.

Bobby Smith / Dave Gagner / Neal Broten in Minnesota was a no HOF but three 1000 point-ish centers.

 

 

Also back to linemates...

 

Kent Nilsson / Lanny McDonald in 82-83 was pretty serious business, I think they played together and that was the season that got Lanny into the Hall of Fame, 66 goals I think.  If Kent had spent more time in the NHL he would be in the Hall with Lanny.  Maybe the best player of all time that nobody remembers.

 

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

22 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Oh yeah and you mentioned center combos...

 

Maybe...

 

Doug Gimour / Joe Nieuwendyk on the Flames

 

Not quite on par with your examples but pretty solid, as was Federko / Gilmour in St. Louis.

Bobby Smith / Dave Gagner / Neal Broten in Minnesota was a no HOF but three 1000 point-ish centers.

 

 

Also back to linemates...

 

Kent Nilsson / Lanny McDonald in 82-83 was pretty serious business, I think they played together and that was the season that got Lanny into the Hall of Fame, 66 goals I think.  If Kent had spent more time in the NHL he would be in the Hall with Lanny.  Maybe the best player of all time that nobody remembers.

 

 

 Nice that Gretzky acknowledged and was a big fan of the Magic Man in his book (it's a good read no mention of his personal accolades, reads like a history book on hockey more then anything...what a leader)... Tim Kerr is another guy for me anyways ... PHI had great teams for a couple decades.   Just couldn't find another Hextall or Parent. 

[Kevin Biestra]

Just now, IBatch said:

 Nice that Gretzky acknowledged and was a big fan of the Magic Man in his book (it's a good read no mention of his personal accolades, reads like a history book on hockey more then anything...what a leader)... Tim Kerr is another guy for me anyways ... PHI had great teams for a couple decades.   Just couldn't find another Hextall or Parent. 

 

Or Lindbergh, who died right at the start of his career already an All Star and Vezina winner and Cup finalist with them.  They went right to Hextall without missing a beat.

 

Or Pete Peeters who got them to the 1980 final and was also a Vezina winner later.

 

No shortage of great goalies from Parent right through to Hextall.

 

I think Roman Cechmanek was pretty good too later on down the road.  Never thought he was holding the team back.

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

12 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Or Lindbergh, who died right at the start of his career already an All Star and Vezina winner and Cup finalist with them.  They went right to Hextall without missing a beat.

 

Or Pete Peeters who got them to the 1980 final and was also a Vezina winner later.

 

No shortage of great goalies from Parent right through to Hextall.

 

I think Roman Cechmanek was pretty good too later on down the road.  Never thought he was holding the team back.

 

I just remember how goaltending was considered the failing of the Lindros era, and their fans were lamenting the glory days of Parent - Hextall (as was the media, they were considered the favourites, one time they got there, Detroit ran over them)... That team was hard not to appreciate "Legion of Doom" lol .. they were tough to handle.  Roman was the best of the bunch and also remember think it was Bouchard who had five shut outs in a row, setting a league record, but ended up a so-so back-up.   Really that sentiment exists to this day in PHI... still trying to find themselves the quality of goaltending they had for a couple decades.   Is Hart that guy?    Pete Peters - lol i thought that was the coolest name as a kid.   Also Bobby Clarke was my first favourite player.   NYI were just getting going when i got into hockey, Boston /MTL/PHI/NYI, the East were beasts.   

 

As an aside, Shanny talks about their 97/98 teams with reverence.   Detroit was a great regular season team, but considered a bit weak and playoff flippers in the postseason.   In 97 all they were hearing about was how Lindros just manhandled Messier (Rangers were still not far from their cup), and they were going to destroy Detroit.    The media completely bought into it.   But what they didn't know was that wiley Bowman  changed tactics after they lost the final in 95, and the lineup was different too.   Every series for two years, they picked one star player on the other team, and checked/hit him targeting the player to "legally" either get him out of the series (yes by injury) or pound on him until he was out of the series anyways.    Canucks did this to Housley too...Shanny says "everyone said it was Lindros's time, the torch being passed from old bull (Messier) to young bull and even Gretzky's hat trick wasn't enough (Lindros scored one too lol) ... and that no team can stand up to them"   ... "Well we knew within the first couple shifts they were paper tigers compared to what we had" ... Konstantinov was a key element with their tactics  ... Hextall and his Flyers got swept, and that was it ... Flyers were supposed to be a great team ... Instead it was Detroit, COL and NJ.  

 

PHI is nothing like it used to be, but they still like their tough players.   Hextall ... how many 100 PIM seasons did he have again lol?  Calder, Vezina, Smythe and an enforcer lol.   The spirit of the early 70's PHI teams, didn't go away for 3 or so decades.    Kerr, Tochett, Hextall etc etc etc Lindros, at least on or two enforcers ...  Behn, Brown (80's both heavyweight champs for a bit)  ... EDM had to work hard for that cup.  

 

Quins 1980 Flyers has to be the best team never to win a cup.    Some (THN) say it was 2011 Canucks ... but maybe because that team still had enough cup winners on it they don't consider it. 

[IBatch]

13 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Or Lindbergh, who died right at the start of his career already an All Star and Vezina winner and Cup finalist with them.  They went right to Hextall without missing a beat.

 

Or Pete Peeters who got them to the 1980 final and was also a Vezina winner later.

 

No shortage of great goalies from Parent right through to Hextall.

 

I think Roman Cechmanek was pretty good too later on down the road.  Never thought he was holding the team back.

 

I think 87 things would have been different if Kerr wasn't struggling with an injury.    That was a pretty great team.   EDM of course was either the best or second best NHL team ever ... 7 HHOFers on that team... PHI just one (Howe).   EDM had McSorely and a half dozen or so very tough players ... PHI had a lineup that could counter any of the Flyers teams from the 70's and maybe come out on top as far as the rough stuff goes - Brown (one of the best ever),  Berube (we all know Gino - but Berube ranked a few spots ahead of him in that department according to the experts at the time 8-10, Gino 12-13), Tochett, a Sutter,  Hextall (who used "controlled violence" as a tactic lol),  and Kerr ... Kerr wasn't a frequent combatant but nobody wanted to fight him, he was tough to beat, bloodied his opponents...Skill and a ton of mean (PHI).

 

It took the Oiler's to game 7, second half way through the second period to deny PHI the chance at their best chance at a cup.   The fact they could do that, against id say the best team ever ... they certainly deserve a ton of respect for that.   They also only scored the first goal once in that series.    And repeatedly came from behind to win their games ....

 

THN considers the 94 final the best of the modern era (since expansion), only two goals separated that series, and the longer it went on the better the Canucks were.  1987 has to be a close second or third.   PHI was the second best team in the league in 1987...and also lost in 1985.    EDM had to earn their cups for sure..last years final was to me, the highest quality of players since COL beat NJ in 2001, which is good for the NHL (and probably the second best final since expansion)..   I might lament about state taxes, but am glad GMs can load teams up with retention, LTIR and contracts like TB has (COL also has low state taxes) ...Not many series as exciting as 1987 though.   1987 also had the best collection of players ever during the Canada Cup.    It's just nuts looking at what that team looked like.   

Edited October 20, 2022 by IBatch