[3-Way Trade] Maple Leafs acquire Ryan O'Reilly, Noel Acciari, Josh Pillar; Blues acquire Adam Gaudette, Mikhail Abramov, 2023 1st-round pick, 2023 3rd-round pick, 2024 2nd-round pick; Wild acquire 2025 4th-round pick

[Dazzle]

13 hours ago, myre said:

That ruled out JB.

Certainly rules out Gillis, but I don't see you saying that either. He was the worst drafter in recent memory.

[Dazzle]

15 hours ago, canucklehead44 said:

Lol Gillis and Benning had nothing to do with who was drafted in the 5th round. Have you seen the size of scouting teams? Outside of high picks (like Juolevi and Virtanen) the GM leaves it up to the scouting staff. Benning did however trade those great picks away - he actually got angry at the scouting staff for selecting McCann over Pastrnak

Gillis absolutely sucked at drafting. I'm not sure why you're running away from that fact. Evidence shows that throughout his entire tenure, he only had four drafted picks that panned out.

FOUR. That's a terrible look for any GM, but we have lots of people willing to white knight this GM because of playoff successes.

[myre]

7 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Certainly rules out Gillis, but I don't see you saying that either. He was the worst drafter in recent memory.

Oh I didn't think we'd be going back that far. Yeah you have me all wrong. I agree with you. That would rule out gillis as well haha. Hodgson, Schroeder, Rodin, etc "bustaroos."

[Dazzle]

14 minutes ago, myre said:

Oh I didn't think we'd be going back that far. Yeah you have me all wrong. I agree with you. That would rule out gillis as well haha. Hodgson, Schroeder, Rodin, etc "bustaroos."

Gillis should always be in the discussion because he's only the other recent GM besides Benning. Gillis did a very terrible job setting the foundation for this team.

 

Anyone who can't draft at all is a very bad candidate to rebuild. You can see that the only four players he ever had any successes with throughout his entire tenure were: Hodgson, Horvat, Hutton, and Connauton (never played with the Canucks).

People will make excuses that Gillis was trying to compete, but when you can't hit any picks with your 2nd (Gillis often traded these), 3rd and 4th round picks for depth, that's going to hurt long term. Gillis busted with Schroeder, Jensen, AND Gaunce as first rounders. He also didn't have a goaltender in the pipeline, nor a defenseman. It's a lot worse than people want to note down.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Dazzle

[myre]

2 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Gillis should always be in the discussion because he's only the other recent GM besides Benning. Gillis did a very terrible job setting the foundation for this team.

 

Anyone who can't draft at all is a very bad candidate to rebuild. You can see that the only four players he ever had any successes with throughout his entire tenure were: Hodgson, Horvat, Hutton, and Connauton (never played with the Canucks).

People will make excuses that Gillis was trying to compete, but when you can't hit any picks with your 2nd (Gillis often traded these), 3rd and 4th round picks for depth, that's going to hurt long term. Gillis busted with Schroeder, Jensen, AND Gaunce as first rounders. He also didn't have a goaltender in the pipeline, nor a defenseman. It's a lot worse than people want to note down.

Hodgson was useless! Slow, lazy and a crybaby. On this forum Nonis was called awful and MG was the saint haha. Meanwhile MG essentially managed Dave's team with the additions of Demitra and Sundin. Ehrhoff was amazing for us. MG really wasn't very good he talked a lot about the importance of drafting and development but it was all lip service.

[Elias Pettersson]

23 hours ago, Dazzle said:

Forsling was a hell of a pick as a 5th rounder. Gillis, however, never could draft anyone remotely as good on defense at any point of his tenure. That makes him very bad for a rebuild.

 

A rebuilding team HAS to have draft picks AND a good GM that can use them properly.

Forsling was a great pick, so why did Benning trade him away for nothing?  Same with McCann.  What's the point in drafting these guys if you don't bother to develop them and keep them?

 

Benning went out and drafted some good players and then turned around and traded them for scraps that turned into nothing.  He also traded like 12-14 draft picks for guys who ended up being busts.  There is more to being a GM than just drafting players.  Throwing those drafted players away and trading half your picks for scraps is the reason he was ultimately fired. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[Dazzle]

Just now, Elias Pettersson said:

Forsling was a great pick, so why did Benning trade him away for nothing?  Same with McCann.  What's the point in drafting these guys if you don't bother to develop them and keep them?

 

Benning went out and drafted some good players and then turned around and traded them for scraps that turned into nothing.  He also traded like 12-14 draft picks for guys who ended up being busts.  There is more to being a GM than just drafting players.  Throwing those draftef players away and trading half your picks for scraps is the reason he was ultimately fired. 

Forsling hadn't proved anything up until that point. He had a lot of potential, but Clendenning at the time, was an AHL allstar (later, that was all he was).

It's easy to use hindsight like you're doing to make an opinion. But it wasn't that long ago when we remembered Forsling being drafted. He was a 5th rounder. He COULD'VE ended up being a nothing player.

 

However, the one thing about Benning's tenure was that his trades often backfired on him. Forsling is probably the worst trade that Benning ever did. OEL/Garland isn't even really bad.

 

[JeremyCuddles]

In regards to the Gillis drafting talk, I really wish he got another job after us. I wanted to see him on another team. He has said in a few interviews that he wanted to overhaul the scouting department but was fired before he got a chance. Yes, I know that could just be a saving face move. But still, I would like to see if he could have actually improved in that regard. He inherited a great core, but he did a good if not great job of building around it. His downfall really was drafting and player assessment.

 

Benning's lack of drafting success is in a sense worse. Cause he had way more higher draft picks, and still barely has a lot of drafting success to show. Gillis had lower ranked picks in each round on account of the team actually being good, which likely also played into the idea that we weren't as focused on drafting and were more concerned about maximizing the team we had. We were a high lottery team the vast majority of the time Benning was here. And we have Hughes, Petey and Demko to show for it. With some on the fence guys in Hogs and Pod. Nearly 10 years of rebuilding and 3 really quality players. But we'll kill Gillis for not drafting well during a time we were more concerned with winning games.

 

I like the devil's advocate route. But I do wonder how much our team's success played into the team not prioritizing drafting during Gillis' tenure. And how much that played into those picks not being very good.

[myre]

14 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Forsling was a great pick, so why did Benning trade him away for nothing?  Same with McCann.  What's the point in drafting these guys if you don't bother to develop them and keep them?

 

Benning went out and drafted some good players and then turned around and traded them for scraps that turned into nothing.  He also traded like 12-14 draft picks for guys who ended up being busts.  There is more to being a GM than just drafting players.  Throwing those drafted players away and trading half your picks for scraps is the reason he was ultimately fired. 

So again I'm having a hard time remembering names so I don't know if you were on CDC when Benning was hired. But everybody hailed him as some sort of drafting guru. And if you look at his first round drafting, it has been very questionable. Ironically, I was attacked for making that point. Told I had no idea what I was talking about.

[Elias Pettersson]

18 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Forsling hadn't proved anything up until that point. He had a lot of potential, but Clendenning at the time, was an AHL allstar (later, that was all he was).

It's easy to use hindsight like you're doing to make an opinion. But it wasn't that long ago when we remembered Forsling being drafted. He was a 5th rounder. He COULD'VE ended up being a nothing player.

 

However, the one thing about Benning's tenure was that his trades often backfired on him. Forsling is probably the worst trade that Benning ever did. OEL/Garland isn't even really bad.

 

Part of being a GM is being able to figure out if a guy has the potential to succeed in the NHL.  On the one hand you claim that Benning did a great job in drafting Forsling, but then you turn around and say that it was better to trade him for an AHL all-star.  Wasn't Brogan Rafferty also an AHL all star?  Who cares what a player does in the AHL.  It only matters what they do in the NHL.

 

If Benning felt highly of Forsling, he should have just let him develop for a few years, which is what you are supposed to do with 5th rounders.  Most don't make it but the ones that do need 3-4 years minimum in the AHL.  

 

Like I said, Benning did this several times and most of his trades backfired.  He even traded like 12 draft picks to get these ready-made NHL players where most of them flopped.  Linden Vey, Sven Baertschi, Madison Bowey, Adam Clendening, Derek Pouliot, Philip Larsen, Erik Gudbranson, Jason Dickinson.  These guys turned out to be all garbage and Benning threw away like 12 draft picks for these guys plus Jared McCann.

 

I was one of the bigger Benning supporters on this board for quite awhile, but I changed my mind on that after reviewing everything he did.  The OEL/Garland trade was the one that broke me.  

 

Benning was a good drafter, not a great one, but a good one.  Of course, he was a better drafter than Gillis.  But at least Gillis was able to trade for some complimentary players and pick up some free agents that helped us to get to the cup finals.  Benning screwed up most of his trades and some of his free agent signings were absolutely horrific.  Loui Eriksson, Tyler Myers and Tucker Poolman just to name 3 guys off the top of my head.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[Diamonds]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Part of being a GM is being able to figure out if a guy has the potential to succeed in the NHL.  On the one hand you claim that Benning did a great job in drafting Forsling, but then you turn around and say that it was better to trade him for an AHL all-star.  Wasn't Brogan Rafferty also an AHL all star?  Who cares what a player does in the AHL.  It only matters what they do in the NHL.

 

If Benning felt highly of Forsling, he should have just let him develop for a few years, which is what you are supposed to do with 5th rounders.  Most don't make it but the ones that do need 3-4 years minimum in the AHL.  

 

Like I said, Benning did this several times and most of his trades backfired.  He even traded like 12 draft picks to get these ready-made NHL players where most of them flopped.  Linden Vey, Sven Baertschi, Madison Bowey, Adam Clendening, Derek Pouliot, Philip Larsen, Erik Gudbranson, Jason Dickinson.  These guys turned out to be all garbage and Benning threw away like 12 draft picks for these guys plus Jared McCann.

 

I was one of the bigger Benning supporters on this board for quite awhile, but I changed my mind on that after reviewing everything he did.  The OEL/Garland trade was the one that broke me.  

 

Benning was a good drafter, not a great one, but a good one.  Of course, he was a better drafter than Gillis.  But at least Gillis was able to trade for some complimentary players and pick up some free agents that helped us to get to the cup finals.  Benning screwed up most of his trades and some of his free agent signings were absolutely horrific.  Loui Eriksson, Tyler Myers and Tucker Poolman just to name 3 guys off the top of my head.

I think one of the main reasons Forsling got traded was because Benning never actually wanted him as a pick. It was Gradin's pick and was given to Gradin in order to appease him after overruling him earlier in the draft when he pushed for Nylander. I remember multiple reporters saying that Gradin was upset after the 1st round at being overruled. 

 

Also, when one looks at the Canucks draft picks that year, Forsling sticks out quite a bit. Small Euro player in a very North American and big draft class. The other skaters we took that year are Stewart, Pettit, Tryamkin, and of course Virtanen (plus McCann).