Do the Canucks understand the value of cap space?

[Plaguez]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Yep.   And have assets that will be traded at the draft or in the summer. 

I mean, this is seriously flawed logic.  You folks all understand that the Canucks in the offseason will have 11 forwards, 4 defensemen and 1 goalie under contract for about 75mil. If Poolman & Pearson come off LTIR then we are at the cap ceiling.

 

Those of saying, "Oh, we'll just trade x, y, z and sign some unicorns that will 100% sign on the cheap" are out of your collective minds.  The Canucks are going to have to pay HUGE amounts to get out from this cap hell.  Miller will not be traded not without taking a loss.  OEL is untradeable, just a horrid contract with way too much $ & term.  Myers with cap retained and a sweetener might go, Garland & Boeser likewise. 

 

The Canucks are in a position of weakness this offseason, I don't expect the other 31 teams to line up to help, they are licking their chops waiting to pounce. I don't fully blame this management but they didn't help by adding Boeser, Miller and Hronek to the problem Benning created. 

 

If Alvin manages to shed contracts and improve this roster it'll be a miracle.  I expect that next years Canucks will be a weaker roster on paper than we have now.  Tocchet will have to work real hard to coach a lesser group to a better record.

[ShawnAntoski]

9 hours ago, Timråfan said:

What exactly is the overpayment regarding Hronek?

Wich players do you compare with? 

He would had been cheaper next year cause he would be closer to his RFA.  Two top picks in a deep draft is an overpayment and Yzerman knows it, perhaps if those picks was next year or so on, it would had been more palatable. Would had preferred they kept the picks and used one of the lottery tickets on a RHD that can play D, instead of a QH type D. 

[The Lock]

I think we're at the point of trying to do what management has deemed the "best" of a string of bad scenarios. I don't see a good scenario no matter what we do. So the next best thing is to made do with what we have; otherwise, a rebuild's going to take at least 5 years probably and unlikely to have Hughes and Pettersson by the end of it.

 

Will we have a cup contender in the end of this? It's certainly easy to cast doubt on it; however, you never know. Maybe the team does become that playoff team next year and we can figure things out from there. Or maybe the team falls flat again and management gets fired a lot sooner than we realise. lol

 

To say what we're doing absolutely won't work or absolutely will work in my opinion is just looking at some facts while ignoring others. Simply put, this may or may not work, but I guess we'll be finding out. lol

Edited March 6, 2023 by The Lock

[ShawnAntoski]

8 hours ago, IBatch said:

Yzerman didn't draft Stamkos or Hedman.    For sure he did a great job after, and made some mistakes he fixed with his high draft pick Drouin (a 5th?).   That teams scouts deserve a ton of credit as well.   Let's see how he does in a similar circumstance.   Zadina was a mistake.   Seider totally off board but worked out.   Both teams started their next cycle at the same time and both had big problems dealing with the remnants of top teams, Holland at least only had Kronwall left really, but also had to pay the piper for all this picks he traded chasing a cup(s).  Bertuzzi was his first hit.   When was he drafted again?   Too early to say, but yes he's looking for the game breaker star caliber guys, and knows that means magic beans.    

A good read on how Yzerman, built up a winning core around Stamkos & Hedman.  

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/steve-yzerman-built-tampa-bay-lightning-powerhouse/

 

My main point with Yzerman, is that he knows and understands, the core he is building up and that only shows the importance, of how he operates off the ice and how he deals with his core players.  When the core is not ready, he tends to sell high on the players he can afford to lose: MAINLY to preserve cap flexibility, whilst adding futures.  But when the core, is ready he goes all in: McDonough & Miller and due to the depth he has built up, within the organization, he can afford to sell high on Miller rather than using up valuable cap space, for him to stay.  HIS TIMING, is what makes him a great GM cause he doesn't chase the mediocre middle and patiently builds around his core players.  Just look at his transactions in Detroit cause he is doing the samething: by first identifying his core and selling high on anyone that he deems expendable to maintain cap flexibility vs the Canucks model of constantly being capped out by chasing the mediocre middle and HOPING TO GET LUCKY, IN THE PLAYOFFS cause it is still a very profitable endeavor for Francesco, despite the mediocre results. Basically, the Canucks is CURRENTLY a bottom dweller team that is capped out and prefers to draft in the teens for short term profits vs a team with cap flexibility and a prospect pool that continues to get deeper. 

 

Imo, giving credit to the scouts when the organization is successful seems to be a poor attempt in undervaluing Yzermans' part as GM cause when the organization is mediocre no one seems to mention the scouts.  Anyways, good discussion and cheers.

Edited March 6, 2023 by ShawnAntoski

[Timråfan]

49 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

He would had been cheaper next year cause he would be closer to his RFA.  Two top picks in a deep draft is an overpayment and Yzerman knows it, perhaps if those picks was next year or so on, it would had been more palatable. Would had preferred they kept the picks and used one of the lottery tickets on a RHD that can play D, instead of a QH type D. 

You still haven’t answer any of my question.

To say that he will be cheaper closer to his RFA(or UFA…) is purely speculative.

Yzerman can let him go to the best bid.

Hronek can take one more step up the ladder of RHD and be even more expensive.

 

To draft a top RHD is very hard.

If you want to have a player in Abbotsford, fine, but that isn’t NHL and definately not as a top RHD.

[Timråfan]

1 minute ago, ShawnAntoski said:

A good read on how Yzerman, built up a winning core around Stamkos & Hedman.  

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/steve-yzerman-built-tampa-bay-lightning-powerhouse/

 

My main point with Yzerman, is that he knows and understands, the core he is building up and that only shows the importance, of how he operates off the ice and how he deals with his core players.  When the core is not ready, he tends to sell high on the players he can afford to lose: MAINLY to preserve cap flexibility, whilst adding futures.  But when the core, is ready he goes all in: McDonough & Miller and due to the depth he has built up, within the organization, he can afford to sell high on Miller rather than overpaying him for him to stay.  His timing is what makes him a great GM cause he doesn't chase the mediocre middle and patiently builds around his core players.  Just look at his transactions  in Detroit: he is doing the samething, by first identifying his core and selling high on anyone that he deems expendable to maintain cap flexibility vs the Canucks model of constantly being capped out by chasing the mediocre middle cause it is still a very profitable endeavor for Francesco, despite the mediocre results. Basically, the Canucks is a bottom dweller team that is capped out and prefers to draft in the teens for short term profits vs a team with cap flexibility, very few longterm commitment and a prospect pool that continues to get deeper.  

I hope you know that it was our scouts that headhunted Hronak so PA contacted Yzerman.

[ShawnAntoski]

5 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

You still haven’t answer any of my question.

To say that he will be cheaper closer to his RFA(or UFA…) is purely speculative.

Yzerman can let him go to the best bid.

Hronek can take one more step up the ladder of RHD and be even more expensive.

 

To draft a top RHD is very hard.

If you want to have a player in Abbotsford, fine, but that isn’t NHL and definately not as a top RHD.

I did answer your question: keep the lottery tickets in a deep draft and use one of them on a RHD cause just like the Canucks with goalies, Carolina continues to built up their RHD depth by investing some of their lottery tickets on RHD and they focus on developing them - hence they can afford to let Hamilton walk in FA. When drafting & development is not the preferred way to built up a roster, then it is hard draft a RHD - but it is also hard to draft a goalie but due to Clarke the Canucks are in a good position.  

 

Ofcourse, he will be cheaper, just look at what Arizona got for Chychrun - almost the same cost to acquire Hronek but the draft years are staggered to mitigate the risk cause both Detroit & Arizona would prefer the cap flexibility rather than overpaying to keep two players headed into their prime, whilst their core is not ready to contend.

[ShawnAntoski]

25 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

I hope you know that it was our scouts that headhunted Hronak so PA contacted Yzerman.

I heard Allvin give credit to the analytics & scouting department, the very same way he did when they acquired a 25 year old Dermott (same age as Hronek)

Edited March 6, 2023 by ShawnAntoski

[Timråfan]

16 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

I did answer your question: keep the lottery tickets in a deep draft and use one of them on a RHD cause just like the Canucks with goalies, Carolina continues to built up their RHD depth by investing some of their lottery tickets on RHD and they focus on developing them - hence they can afford to let Hamilton walk in FA. When drafting & development is not the preferred way to built up a roster, then it is hard draft a RHD - but it is also hard to draft a goalie but due to Clarke the Canucks are in a good position.  

 

Ofcourse, he will be cheaper, just look at what Arizona got for Chychrun - almost the same cost to acquire Hronek but the draft years are staggered to mitigate the risk cause both Detroit & Arizona would prefer the cap flexibility rather than overpaying to keep two players headed into their prime, whilst their core is not ready to contend.

Again, an LHD can be much better than an RHD and still the RHD is more expensive.

And we don’t have time to draft an RHd through the system just to eventually, if we’re lucky, have a top RHD.

We don’t want a 5/6 RHD…

[ShawnAntoski]

9 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

Again, an LHD can be much better than an RHD and still the RHD is more expensive.

And we don’t have time to draft an RHd through the system just to eventually, if we’re lucky, have a top RHD.

We don’t want a 5/6 RHD…

Time can always be made through proper preparation, just like I had pointed out with Carolina and their preferred method of developing RHD vs overpaying for them in the trade or FA.  Seems like you are just making excuses to justify the Hronek trade 

Edited March 6, 2023 by ShawnAntoski

[Timråfan]

2 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Time can always be made through proper preparation, just like I had pointed out with Carolina and their preferred method of developing RHD vs overpaying for them in the trade or FA.

 Now you’re talking 10-15 years forward.

But now we really needed a top RHD to make it easier for Hughes.

Hronek is offensive so he will have the same role as Hughes but from the right side.

[ShawnAntoski]

7 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

 Now you’re talking 10-15 years forward.

But now we really needed a top RHD to make it easier for Hughes.

Hronek is offensive so he will have the same role as Hughes but from the right side.

Now, you are just speculating to further justify the shortsighted gamble on Hronek, to constantly chase the mediocre middle for short term profit

Edited March 6, 2023 by ShawnAntoski

[Timråfan]

9 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Now, you are just speculating to further justify the shortsighted gamble on Hronek, to constantly chase the mediocre middle for short term profit

In what way did I speculate? 
It wasn’t a shortsighted gamble on Hronek since it was a player we had headhunted.

Why would we chase the mediocre middle for? We are chasing the division title in two seasons so we have to get the speed up as PA has done already with a lot of quality players added in the right age.

[ShawnAntoski]

15 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

In what way did I speculate? 
It wasn’t a shortsighted gamble on Hronek since it was a player we had headhunted.

Why would we chase the mediocre middle for? We are chasing the division title in two seasons so we have to get the speed up as PA has done already with a lot of quality players added in the right age.

10 -15 years forward isn't speculating cause I never set a timeline - you did ?  You have not been paying attention cause the team under Francesco has been chasing the mediocre middle for years, with mediocre results cause despite the results, the endeavor is still profitable.  The team is chasing a playoff spot hoping to get lucky vs having a team that can legitimately contend.  Plus, it is obvious the preferred method to build up is through FA & trades, instead of drafting & development.  The 2011 one & done roster was mainly built up, through homegrown talent and Gillis failed in his attempts to transition from that roster, by undervaluing the importance of drafting & development.  

 

There is a time to acquire a Hronek type player and now is the right time cause the teams' core is still struggling and they are capped out.  Yzerman knew what he was doing, by selling high on a 25 yr old Hronek (just like he did with a 25 yr old Mantha), whilst giving himself future cap flexibility and more lottery tickets to replace players.  Just more excuses to justify the mediocre results.  

 

https://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/569255

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by ShawnAntoski

[Timråfan]

5 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

10 -15 years forward isn't speculating cause I never set a timeline - you did ?  You have not been paying attention cause the team under Francesco has been chasing the mediocre middle for years, with mediocre results cause despite the results, the endeavor is still profitable.  The team is chasing a playoff spot hoping to get lucky vs having a team that can legitimately contend.  Plus, it is obvious the preferred method to build up is through FA & trades, instead of drafting & development.  The 2011 one & done roster was mainly built up, through homegrown talent and Gillis failed in his attempts to transition from that roster, by undervaluing the importance of drafting & development.  

 

There is a time to acquire a Hronek type player and now is the right time cause the teams' core is still struggling and they are capped out.  Yzerman knew what he was doing, by selling high on a 25 yr old Hronek (just like he did with a 25 yr old Mantha), whilst giving himself future cap flexibility and more lottery tickets to replace players.  Just more excuses to justify the mediocre results.  

 

https://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/569255

 

 

And why do you compare the Benning years with What’s coming with PA? 
Have you missed that it’s miles apart from how they work.

[ShawnAntoski]

8 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

And why do you compare the Benning years with What’s coming with PA? 
Have you missed that it’s miles apart from how they work.

You are OBVIOUSLY not paying attention and just making a lame attempt to justify the move.  Did you hear Allvin in the radio being coy about the Hronek trade.  

 

Same JB type shortsighted gambles and just like OEL or Schmidt, their is no guarantee he clicks vs a homegrown talent that was intentionally drafted & developed to replace a player.  

 

Kudos to Yzerman for fleecing the teams 3rd straight rookie GM

Edited March 6, 2023 by ShawnAntoski

[Timråfan]

Just now, ShawnAntoski said:

You are OBVIOUSLY not paying attention and just making a lame attempt to justify the move.  Did you hear Allvin in the radio being coy about the Hronek trade.  

 

Same JB type shortsighted gambles and just like OEL or Schmidt, their is no guarantee he clicks vs a homegrown talent that was intentionally drafted & developed to replace a player.  

What? OEL and Schmidt were both lefties 

 

That is like saying every trade is stupid because they will fail.

I wonder why so many tradea happen.

 

This is about how long time we can accept to be without a top RHD and there you and I have completely different opinion about.

[ShawnAntoski]

2 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

What? OEL and Schmidt were both lefties 

 

That is like saying every trade is stupid because they will fail.

I wonder why so many tradea happen.

 

This is about how long time we can accept to be without a top RHD and there you and I have completely different opinion about.

Nothing left but a sarcastic response; ofcourse, trades are neccessary; and if you had been reading my post carefully - I have argued that the timing is wrong for a Hronek type trade.  Just more excuses & specualtions for Francesco and failed his front offices. 

 

Did you even read the link I posted about Francesco, for further context ?

[Timråfan]

2 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Nothing left but a sarcastic response; ofcourse, trades are neccessary; and if you had been reading my post carefully - I have argued that the timing is wrong for a Hronek type trade.  Just more excuses & specualtions for Francesco and failed his front offices. 

 

Did you even read the link I posted about Francesco, for further context ?

Why would I read that? 
We needed a top RHD to be with the core. The window is opening. 
This isn’t about FA or Benning. 
 

Now we have a 1st C, RHD, LHD and a bonafide goalie. 
We can’t wait to a draft wich is one of the reasons PA probably shift the 1st to a valuable D again if we don’t stay at the bottom five. 
 

If you want to spend your time whining on this board, be my guest.

I’m glad we’re about to win a lot of games at least 6 seasons forward. 
We can stumble a bit if Hughes want to join his brothers but hopefully the team is overstacked by then. 

[ShawnAntoski]

15 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

Why would I read that? 
We needed a top RHD to be with the core. The window is opening. 
This isn’t about FA or Benning. 
 

Now we have a 1st C, RHD, LHD and a bonafide goalie. 
We can’t wait to a draft wich is one of the reasons PA probably shift the 1st to a valuable D again if we don’t stay at the bottom five. 
 

If you want to spend your time whining on this board, be my guest.

I’m glad we’re about to win a lot of games at least 6 seasons forward. 
We can stumble a bit if Hughes want to join his brothers but hopefully the team is overstacked by then. 

You are not interested in a hockey discussion based on your first statement and are more interested, in being right or having the moral high ground but the yearly results don't agree with your excuses and speculations - lol.  Anyways, believe what you want cause the roster is STILL struggling, despite the pieces you mentioned and the team is ALSO still capped out to improve.  Kudos to Yzerman

 

In a few years, both Hronek & EP will need a contract and good chance, the OEL & Miller anchor contracts will still be here. The team continues to undervalue drafting & development and it will have the same predictable consequences cause the margin for error, in a hard cap league is very thin and the prospect pool is the hedge.  Some GM'S understand it and the Canucks don't cause being in NHL purgatory is still a very profitable endeavor.

Edited March 6, 2023 by ShawnAntoski