The Wayne Gretzky Discussion Thread

[Kevin Biestra]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Yes.  And the league gave an 8th Art Ross trophy to Dionne, that they tied in points, Gretzky had a goal or two less ... in less games.    They really weren't fully supporting Gretzky,  the WHA was an annoying chapter in the NHL lives, some guys said he "wouldn't make the Toronto 's 50's teams".     Puny arms.   No way he'd make it through one year without getting pounded into a stretcher.    So 11 of his 20 years, he led the league in scoring, one of those tied.   What is even more impressive is how far ahead he was to second best ...  and those were some great players.  Dionne, Lafleur, Goulet, Stastny, Hawerchuk,  Bossy, Yzerman, Messier,  Kurri, later Sakic, Bure, Federov, Mogilny, Sundin etc etc etc.. His last Art Ross was on a bad/mediocre LA team.   The writing was on the wall after making it to the final, things started falling apart.  1992-93 ... considered retirement, came back and had one last great run.   NYR was close too, had an epic series against PHI, who went to the final that year, both Gretzky and Lindros scoring a hat trick in the same game.    So maybe that was his last great series ... 1997 I think.   Almost 20 years after he became pro, in the dead puck era, against a pretty awesome team. 

 

Gretzky was an animal in that series against Philly in 1997.  9 points in 5 games while his team only won one of them.  Second on the team was 4 points in the 5 games.

 

And the second best player on the Rangers?  Arguably Doug Lidster who led their D in scoring (ahead of Leetch) with 3 points in the 5 games.

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Gretzky was an animal in that series against Philly in 1997.  9 points in 5 games while his team only won one of them.  Second on the team was 4 points in the 5 games.

 

And the second best player on the Rangers?  Arguably Doug Lidster who led their D in scoring (ahead of Leetch) with 3 points in the 5 losses.

Yes he was.   PHI was a powerhouse in the 90's.   Those were fun games to watch, big mean skilled teams.   Shanny has a good story about Detroit's first run of cup's (97 and 98).   Up to then Detroit had a reputation as a great regular season team, but flopped in the playoffs.   Have to lose to learn how to win often though.    The script at the time was "This is Eric's time, he just easily handled Messier and co, and time to get the parade route ready in Philly".     Detroit wasn't the favourite.    Shanny goes on to say " Everyone wrote us off before the series started.   Eric was the heir apparent, and they just manhandled Messier and the Rangers, no way we could match their physicality right?"  . "We knew by the third shift, we had this in the bag."    "The 2002 team might have been the best, but they'd have better beat us in the four, otherwise they'd be limping by game 7 against the 97-98 cup teams".  "We'd pick one or two stars, each team, and either knock them out of the series, or off their game".   "The 97-98 teams...well we'd be winning 5-1 in a nothing regular season game, third period almost over, then Vlad would knock someone out, and instead of drinking the beer after the game, we'd be icing our knuckles."  

 

Konstantinov, if it wasn't for his accident, Detroit had a shot at a run at six cups.   Holland said "Vladdy had a higher career trajectory at the time, than Lidstrom. "   His last two seasons, was 2nd and 4th in Norris votes, and getting recognized as a two way all around force, was just fun to watch him with the puck and without.  Led the league in plus minus, plus 60 his second to last season.    Truly too bad. 

 

Edit:  A shot.  Those COL teams were great too.   Detroit and COL

met in the post season 7 times during that era ... COL won 4 of those series.   Only Dallas managed to get past them.   Twice. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

Art Ross winners with 3 or more in a row.   

 

McDavid 3 (so far), 20 years before his first of those 3, Jagr just completed his 4th in a row, in the deep part of the dead puck era.    Gretzky 7 (tied for lead league one other time, and injured another year ... otherwise could have been 9) in a row.   Lafluer, all 3 of his were in a row.   Espo 4 in a row.   Howe 4 in a row.   That's it.   The entire list.  Mario split his 6 Art Ross's with Gretzky and later Jagr.   So ... Only six guys in NHL history have managed 3, and so far, only four guys 4 in a row.  

 

Jagr often get overlooked in all-time rankings.   Was the best player in the world during the dead puck era.   And after the lockout, scored 123 points, 54 goals at 33 .. Thornton scored 125 and Cheechoo 58 goals.    What a difference removing the redline, and reducing obstruction made, who would have thought?  

 

Things finally looked bright again.  Ovi and Crosby both scored over 100 points.  Rookies.  7 guys managed that, 14 90 or more, 26 80 or more.   Like things used to be, well without a Mario or Gretzky, an Espo or Jagr.    In 1993-1994, which is considered the last year before the dead puck era even though for years up to then, guys like Hull, Mario were extremely vocal about obstruction (of course it was already trending like that for awhile...expansion and NJ cemented, even getting all the Russian players wasn't enough talent to spread around), there were 8 guys with 100 or more points, Gretzky won his final Art Ross on a bad LA team, with 130.   21 had 90 or more.   An awesome list of players too.  36 with 80 or more. 

 

Back to post lockout.   Jagr was 33, 123 (scored 99 in 94), Alfie who was drafted in 94, at age 33, 104  Selanne at age 35 scored 90.  Sakic at age 36 scored 87 (second best dead puck era forward after Jagr IMO) scored 92 at age 24 in 94, at 37 would score his final 100 plus season ... Shanny scored 40 goals 81 points at age 37,  in 1994 scored 102 at age 25.    Lidstrom had his most productive season, only one a PPG player, 80 in 80 games at age 35.  Sundin 34 score 78, in 1994 at 22 scored 85... Zubov, after years of 50 or so points, exploded for 71 at age 35 (second most of D's that year), in 1994 he led the Rangers with 87 points.   Modano at 35 scored 77.

 

  There are loads of other guys in their 30's who saw a big bump in their scoring.   Who would have thought removing the redline and calling the rules closer to the book, would make such a difference.   It's too bad the league expanded past its talent level.   And needed to remove the nuetral zone trap with a rule that changed the game entirely.    Sped the game up, removing an extra pass and the caution required to deal with three lines.    Don't mind they did that, but do miss the physicality and hitting the game had with big dudes like Craig Ludwig and Hatcher.   One oddity, was Iginla at 28, scoring 67.    And Sundin just seemed to score his regular point per game plus a bit no matter what era.   

 

Edit:  As an aside, there are a few guys who likely could have passed Howe in scoring, if they didn't lose 1.5 or more seasons to lockouts.   Jagr probably had 2000 points in the bag.  Didn't matter what sort of game, he could do it all.     Messier maybe had a shot as well.  Sakic to and Francis also had a shot at Howes spot. 

 

If there is a tier below Gretzky, Orr, Howe and  Mario, Jagr for sure deserves consideration.    Crosby, Ovi, Hull, Espo, Yzerman, Sakic, Coffey and Borque ... maybe Lafluer and Bossy all do too.   Bobby Hull scored a lot of pro goals.  Messier maybe too.   Beliveau too, his last cup begged to stay on one more year, weren't even supposed to make the playoffs, and with Dryden, beat the peak Orr/Boston team. Goalies, Sawchuk, Roy, Plante and Hasek.  

Edited September 5, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

As an expanded list, there isn't many more guys who had 3 Art ross's period.

 

Hull 3, Mikita 4.   Mario 6.   Jagr 5.  Gretzky 9.  Lafluer 3.  Espo 5.  Howe 6.   Howe actually gave Esposito a run for his money at age 40 though, 68-69 I think, with his first and only 100 plus point season.  Two managed that for the first time in league history that year.   

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

As an expanded list, there isn't many more guys who had 3 Art ross's period.

 

Hull 3, Mikita 4.   Mario 6.   Jagr 5.  Gretzky 9.  Lafluer 3.  Espo 5.  Howe 6.   Howe actually gave Esposito a run for his money at age 40 though, 68-69 I think, with his first and only 100 plus point season.  Two managed that for the first time in league history that year.  

 

Stan Mikita is a guy who really gets overlooked in this kind of stuff now.

[IBatch]

6 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Stan Mikita is a guy who really gets overlooked in this kind of stuff now.

Hull and Mikita, we're the best pairing CHI's ever had.   Apologies to Kane and Toews.   One of the best tandems all time.   They owned the league offensively for the better part of a decade.   Lindsay Howe.   Another awesome line for the original six guys. 

[Elias Pettersson]

6 hours ago, IBatch said:

Yes he was.   PHI was a powerhouse in the 90's.   Those were fun games to watch, big mean skilled teams.   Shanny has a good story about Detroit's first run of cup's (97 and 98).   Up to then Detroit had a reputation as a great regular season team, but flopped in the playoffs.   Have to lose to learn how to win often though.    The script at the time was "This is Eric's time, he just easily handled Messier and co, and time to get the parade route ready in Philly".     Detroit wasn't the favourite.    Shanny goes on to say " Everyone wrote us off before the series started.   Eric was the heir apparent, and they just manhandled Messier and the Rangers, no way we could match their physicality right?"  . "We knew by the third shift, we had this in the bag."    "The 2002 team might have been the best, but they'd have better beat us in the four, otherwise they'd be limping by game 7 against the 97-98 cup teams".  "We'd pick one or two stars, each team, and either knock them out of the series, or off their game".   "The 97-98 teams...well we'd be winning 5-1 in a nothing regular season game, third period almost over, then Vlad would knock someone out, and instead of drinking the beer after the game, we'd be icing our knuckles."  

 

Konstantinov, if it wasn't for his accident, Detroit had a shot at a run at six cups.   Holland said "Vladdy had a higher career trajectory at the time, than Lidstrom. "   His last two seasons, was 2nd and 4th in Norris votes, and getting recognized as a two way all around force, was just fun to watch him with the puck and without.  Led the league in plus minus, plus 60 his second to last season.    Truly too bad. 

 

Edit:  A shot.  Those COL teams were great too.   Detroit and COL

met in the post season 7 times during that era ... COL won 4 of those series.   Only Dallas managed to get past them.   Twice. 

Konstantinov was a better all around defenceman than Lidstrom. Pretty sure he would have won multiple Norris trophies if the accident didn’t happen. He would for sure have taken some of the ones won by Lidstrom. 
 

Man that would have been a legendary defensive duo if they had played together for another decade.  Maybe Detroit wins another 2-3 cups as well. 

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Konstantinov was a better all around defenceman than Lidstrom. Pretty sure he would have won multiple Norris trophies if the accident didn’t happen. He would for sure have taken some of the ones won by Lidstrom. 
 

Man that would have been a legendary defensive duo if they had played together for another decade.  Maybe Detroit wins another 2-3 cups as well. 

It's hard to say for sure.  Al Mac and Pronger were the guys to beat soon in St. Louis.   But he for sure was robbed of his prime D years, and was a force to be reckoned with.   His hits were mostly clean too.  For those that don't know him,  just google 97 playoffs Konstantinov hits and see why they called him Vlad the Impaler.   Was happy when Detroit won a second cup.   His story is a real tragedy though.  Festisov too, and their trainer. 

[IBatch]

How's this for a beauty statline:

 

Gretzky led the league in assists and goals several times, but the 1984-1985 stands out as special year.   

 

Starting with the 1984 Canada Cup.   That was one tough Russian team.    They were a perfect 5-0 in the round robin.   Canada owned them the first two periods but could only manage one goal..then back and forth, Coffey's legendary play and we play Sweden for the final.   Win the Cup.    Gretzky led the tournament in scoring, Tonneli the MVP (and the Russian coach laid a lot of praise on him - Tonneli as an aside). 

 

So before the season already a first line Canada Cup selection and a team award.

 

Then goes on and in typical fashion, gets the most goals, assists, wins a cup, and the Smythe...also led the league in plus minus, short handed points etc etc etc.   Pearson too.   Does the same thing in the playoffs too. 

 

Only one other player managed this, Guy Lafluer, and for sure Beliveau would have won all of them in 1955-56 had they existed.  

 

One could probably say that was Gretzky's greatest year.   

 

Edit:  Honourable mention to Mario's amazing, most magnificent, marvellous 1992-93 season.   In his peak prime now at 27,  Mario started the year off chasing Gretzky's 215 point season.    Let's look at it in blocks:

 

Came out charging.   36 points in 11 games for October.   November petered off a bit, 29 points in 15 games.  December went on a roll, 36 points in 11 games.. entering the new year with an eye popping 101 points in just 38 games!   Or good for 202 in 76 ... this is the sort of pace, a player needs to play to be able to get to 215 points.   He was pacing that up until then.    And just a treat to watch.    The other shoe dropped when he noticed a lump and started radiation treatment.   

Took a month off.   When he returned, trailed  Lafontaine  by 12 points, who was also having what ordinarily, would be considered a season for the ages.    First game back, a goal and an assist.   Then went on to score 46 points over his next 16 games including 22 goals lol.   Yikes.   In the end 160 points in 60 games was a remarkable feat.    That's 218 points if that pace can be kept up for 82 games. 

 

NYI , famously upset the mighty Pens.    They only won one more game then lost without him...and won 17 in a row at one point when he came back.    As an aside,  this was the norm for Gretzky 5 times in his career.   Would have also won one other Art Ross, taking Mario's first away, if he didn't miss some time in with the Oilers one season also on pace for 200 plus points, and curiously EDM didn't do so well without him either.  

 

  The PENs entered the post season as the favourites.    Until recently under Trotz, NYI fans - that was their last playoff moment to celebrate.    Their magical run was ended by a cheap shot later by Dale Hunter on Turgeon in the next round. 

 

For some reason they couldn't close out the NYI series, up 3-2.   Otherwise Mario likely would be added to the list, Conn Smythe and Cup plus the rest.    But that was peak Mario, something to be-hold for sure.   Luckily lived with a friend who's Dad loved hockey back then...92-93 was special for Gretzky too but for different reasons.   Gretzky missed even more time, at one point there were rumblings he would retire due to neck, back and shoulder issues.   Turned out to be his last hurrah in the post season.   Roy was just peak Roy and they were denied.    Up with minutes to go in the third period ... if they won that game, up 2-0 in the series, I doubt even Roy would have saved them (they peppered him at times, best goaltending i've ever seen in the post season)... 92-93 had more storylines for a variety of reasons, then almost any other season.   3 all time greats GOATs had key moments in their illustrious careers. 

Edited September 6, 2023 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

How's this for a beauty statline:

 

Gretzky led the league in assists and goals several times, but the 1984-1985 stands out as special year.   

 

Starting with the 1984 Canada Cup.   That was one tough Russian team.    They were a perfect 5-0 in the round robin.   Canada owned them the first two periods but could only manage one goal..then back and forth, Coffey's legendary play and we play Sweden for the final.   Win the Cup.    Gretzky led the tournament in scoring, Tonneli the MVP (and the Russian coach laid a lot of praise on him - Tonneli as an aside). 

 

So before the season already a first line Canada Cup selection and a team award.

 

Then goes on and in typical fashion, gets the most goals, assists, wins a cup, and the Smythe...also led the league in plus minus, short handed points etc etc etc.   Pearson too.   Does the same thing in the playoffs too. 

 

Only one other player managed this, Guy Lafluer, and for sure Beliveau would have won all of them in 1955-56 had they existed.  

 

One could probably say that was Gretzky's greatest year.   

 

Edit:  Honourable mention to Mario's amazing, most magnificent, marvellous 1992-93 season.   In his peak prime now at 27,  Mario started the year off chasing Gretzky's 215 point season.    Let's look at it in blocks:

 

Came out charging.   36 points in 11 games for October.   November petered off a bit, 29 points in 15 games.  December went on a roll, 36 points in 11 games.. entering the new year with an eye popping 101 points in just 38 games!   Or good for 202 in 76 ... this is the sort of pace, a player needs to play to be able to get to 215 points.   He was pacing that up until then.    And just a treat to watch.    The other shoe dropped when he noticed a lump and started radiation treatment.   

Took a month off.   When he returned, trailed  Lafontaine  by 12 points, who was also having what ordinarily, would be considered a season for the ages.    First game back, a goal and an assist.   Then went on to score 46 points over his next 16 games including 22 goals lol.   Yikes.   In the end 160 points in 60 games was a remarkable feat.    That's 218 points if that pace can be kept up for 82 games. 

 

NYI and Hrudey, famously upset the mighty Pens.    They only won one more game then lost without him...and won 17 in a row at one point when he came back.    As an aside,  this was the norm for Gretzky 5 times in his career.   Would have also won one other Art Ross, taking Mario's first away, if he didn't miss some time in with the Oilers one season also on pace for 200 plus points, and curiously EDM didn't do so well without him either.  

 

  The PENs entered the post season as the favourites.    Until recently under Trotz, NYI fans - that was their last playoff moment to celebrate.    Their magical run was ended by a cheap shot later by Dale Hunter on Turgeon in the next round. 

 

For some reason they couldn't close out the NYI series, up 3-2.   Otherwise Mario likely would be added to the list, Conn Smythe and Cup plus the rest.    But that was peak Mario, something to be-hold for sure.   Luckily lived with a friend who's Dad loved hockey back then...92-93 was special for Gretzky too but for different reasons.   Gretzky missed even more time, at one point there were rumblings he would retire due to neck, back and shoulder issues.   Turned out to be his last hurrah in the post season.   Roy was just peak Roy and they were denied.    Up with minutes to go in the third period ... if they won that game, up 2-0 in the series, I doubt even Roy would have saved them (they peppered him at times, best goaltending i've ever seen in the post season)... 92-93 had more storylines for a variety of reasons, then almost any other season.   3 all time greats GOATs had key moments in their illustrious careers. 

 

Yeah those 1993 playoffs were the high point of Ray Ferraro's career too.  18 games for the Islanders in the playoffs...13 goals and 20 points.  By far the best payer on the team in those playoffs.

[IBatch]

27 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah those 1993 playoffs were the high point of Ray Ferraro's career too.  18 games for the Islanders in the playoffs...13 goals and 20 points.  By far the best payer on the team in those playoffs.

Yes and Healy had one heck of a playoffs too.  (I said Hrudey lol - he of course was doing his fish fry flop with LA that year blue bandanna and all).    Don't remember their games much.   They for sure weren't considered to be much but a tune up team for PIT, on the way to the conference final, and some of those games,  they couldn't win without Healy.    Roy won games for MTL all the way to the cup, more then a few they shouldn't have won too (those I remember better; friends Dad was a Habs fan after the Canucks..I secretly wanted LA to win after VAN was out because Gretzky of course, even after losing to them).   Much like this seasons FLD/CAR series,  MTL won games they shouldn't have if it wasn't for their goaltending. 

 

92-93 TO/LA series was fun to watch.   McSorely hitting Gilmour "trolly tracking"  then Clarke .. Gretzky talked about how much that meant to both teams in that series, and considers game 7 TO/LA his best playoff game all-time.    

Edited September 6, 2023 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yes and Healy had one heck of a playoffs too.  (I said Hrudey lol - he of course was doing his fish fry flop with LA that year blue bandanna and all).    Don't remember their games much.   They for sure weren't considered to be much but a tune up team for PIT, and those games they shouldn't have won.    Roy won games for MTL all the way to the cup, that they shouldn't have won too.   Much like this seasons FLD/CAR series. 

 

Yeah those Islanders reminded me of the 1988 Devils with Sean Burke and Patrik Sundstrom.  Damn fine run to the semifinal by an underdog.  And a last hurrah for the old warhorse Bob Sauve in net as well.

 

Seemed like all the old veteran workman goalies went to the Devils to ride off into the sunset in the 80s.  Ron Low, Glenn Resch, Bob Sauve, Phil Myre.

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

12 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah those Islanders reminded me of the 1988 Devils with Sean Burke and Patrik Sundstrom.  Damn fine run to the semifinal by an underdog.  And a last hurrah for the old warhorse Bob Sauve in net as well.

 

Seemed like all the old veteran workman goalies went to the Devils to ride off into the sunset in the 80s.  Ron Low, Glenn Resch, Bob Sauve, Phil Myre.

 

Sean Burke.   Does he hold the record for goalies playing for different teams ?  Seems like he played for half the league at some point, including us.   Happy he went on to have great success in PHX after us.   And do remember when he came to us, we were getting a good goalie.   Essensa was also a good goalie with WNP.   Irbe with SJ, Potvin with TO.   Crazy that part of our history.   

Edited September 6, 2023 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

4 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Sean Burke.   Does he hold the record for goalies playing for different teams ?  Seems like he played for half the league at some point, including us.  

 

Eight teams for Burke.  Offhand I can't think of anyone who has him beat.

[IBatch]

13 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Eight teams for Burke.  Offhand I can't think of anyone who has him beat.

I added some stuff above.   What about Suitcase from the 70's?   Maybe too few teams back then.   Also Burke is yet another example, of save percentages climbing in the 90's into the 2000's during the dead puck era ...  Was he really better in his mid 30's?  Doubt it.   Same thing with Roy.    Same thing with Vernon.   Beezer.  A ton of goalies.   SP climbed because of no equipment restrictions, copying Roy's style (Halls actually but that doesn't come up often) and the neutral zone trap which was a result of expansion and teams copying NJ.   Even a mediocre at best team (thanks to Makarov mostly) like SJ could do that and beat Detroit with Irbe.   After they set a record (sorry Boston, you have to make your SO wins ties) and OT 3 x 3 just has to be in its own category too.    Beating my drum again about that era.   It was tough to see that much talent, stuck in the mud,  a lot of guys in their later primes and in their primes suffered as a result.   The league grew too fast.    The Wall falling helped a ton, but once those countries were scoured ...  they needed to stop.  CLB/NSH etc should have been postponed at least a decade, after SJ, ANA and OTT and FLD/TB. 

Edited September 6, 2023 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

6 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I added some stuff above.   What about Suitcase from the 70's?   Maybe too few teams back then.   Also Burke is yet another example, of save percentages climbing in the 90's into the 2000's during the dead puck era ...  Was he really better in his mid 30's?  Doubt it.   Same thing with Roy.  

 

Looks like 8 I think for Gary Smith as well including WHA.

 

As to the Canucks goalie graveyard years...where good goalies went to die.  For the first decade it was a goalie carousel until King Richard.  Then right to Kirk McLean without missing a beat and then just an absolute circus until Luongo.

[IBatch]

3 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Looks like 8 I think for Gary Smith as well including WHA.

 

As to the Canucks goalie graveyard years...where good goalies went to die.  For the first decade it was a goalie carousel until King Richard.  Then right to Kirk McLean without missing a beat and then just an absolute circus until Luongo.

Sure was.   Added some more above.   When some of those guys came in was excited.  McLean did need replacing, his best days seemed to be behind him.   Settling on Cloutier was odd.   

[Elias Pettersson]

 

[Elias Pettersson]

I got Gretzky, LaFleur, Dionne, Bourque, Coffey, Middleton.  This is the team that got destroyed by the Soviet Union...

[IBatch]

8 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I got Gretzky, LaFleur, Dionne, Bourque, Coffey, Middleton.  This is the team that got destroyed by the Soviet Union...

The Soviets proved they were close to or our equal during those epic series, going back to the Summit.    Orr on one knee, had a great series with Bobby Clarke as the Captain in the 70's too.   We won't ever see anything like that again.   Players back in the 70's, didn't see each other just as opponents, but the literal enemy on both sides.   There were Canadian players checking their rooms for bugs in Moscow during the Summit series, and concerned for their well being.    Alan Eagleson was a greedy man, but he sure was a patriot and showed some balls during those days.   Wouldn't let the Soviets take the Canada Cup home in 1981.    That roster had 15 or 16 HHOFers on it.  Goes to show how darn good the Red Army/Soviet Union teams were.   They weren't just playing a hockey game...they were playing for their political ideologies too. 
 

The KLM line was every bit as good as the Bure Federov Mogilny line.   So the Soviets recruited and created, 3 all-time great cores. Krutov couldn't handle the Westerns freedoms and didn't work out.   But Larionov sure did.   And after Makarov won the Calder, they changed the rules.    Makarov, aged 33/34, came in and was still a great player.   Gets overlooked given he was in SJ and their roster was pretty trash, but was one heck of a player in his 30's, so was Larionov and Festisov of course.   

That 81 team was loaded.    And they dismantled them.  

Edited September 9, 2023 by IBatch