The Wayne Gretzky Discussion Thread

[Elias Pettersson]

9 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yep.   Notice who's also not on the list, despite being one of the few guys to break or get to 150?  Two guys actually.    

Connor McDavid

2022-2023 - 153 points - Even Strength points - 75 - Difference - 78 points

 

Bernie Nicholls

1988-89 - 150 points - Even Strength points - 87 - Difference - 63 points

 

Connor McDavid has feasted more on the power play than even Mario Lemieux.  His 75 EV points in 2022-23 ranks him at 119 on the all-time list, even behind Petr Nedved who is at 100...

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[Kevin Biestra]

11 hours ago, IBatch said:

Yep.   Notice who's also not on the list, despite being one of the few guys to break or get to 150?  Two guys actually.    

 

Bernie Nicholls is at least close with 87 even strength points one year (and added a pretty impressive 14 shorthanded points for 101 total).  McDavid had 75 even strength points last year I think.

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Kevin Biestra

[shiznak]

On 8/14/2023 at 2:13 PM, Elias Pettersson said:

Wayne and Mario were both talented and had great work ethic.  I think the difference and where the argument takes a different turn is what actually defines talent.  You seem to not be looking at Gretzky's 6th sense and vision as actual talent, you are only looking at the physical, which is why you put Mario ahead of him.  Mario was a physical specimen, similar to Lindros.  But Mario didn't have the 6th sense or vision that Wayne had.  Mario had to go through guys just like Lindros.  Wayne didn't have to do that.  He would outsmart them and make them look foolish.  That is a talent that nobody else ever had.  Brains is just as important in sports as raw physical talent.  Tom Brady is a perfect example of that...

I mean, Lemieux had that “6th sense” too, just not in the same tier as Gretzky. I think someone posted that “no look, no touch assist” from the Olympics against the US. That was some 6th sense hokey, there. There’s also one assists I vaguely remember where he pretty much deked the entire Bruins team, made a no look pass, cross ice pass from the blueline to a wide open Olczyk.

Edited August 16, 2023 by shiznak

[Kevin Biestra]

On 8/14/2023 at 2:13 PM, Elias Pettersson said:

Wayne and Mario were both talented and had great work ethic.  I think the difference and where the argument takes a different turn is what actually defines talent.  You seem to not be looking at Gretzky's 6th sense and vision as actual talent, you are only looking at the physical, which is why you put Mario ahead of him.  Mario was a physical specimen, similar to Lindros.  But Mario didn't have the 6th sense or vision that Wayne had.  Mario had to go through guys just like Lindros.  Wayne didn't have to do that.  He would outsmart them and make them look foolish.  That is a talent that nobody else ever had.  Brains is just as important in sports as raw physical talent.  Tom Brady is a perfect example of that...

 

The buzz around Mario was that he didn't want to practice and didn't practice very hard when he did.  I wasn't around personally but that was his reputation to some degree.  Might have changed into his career...maybe after 1987 with Gretzky on Team Canada and by 1991 and 1992 he was as Alain Vigneault would agree "a man possessed."

 

But word was that he relied on his physical gifts and talents quite a bit...at least until he became the legendary version of Mario.  Like Allen Iverson says...how is he going to make his teammates better by practicing?

 

Pavel Bure had a bit of that as well.  He obviously put the gym time in and kept in great shape but there was one Canucks practice anyway where Pavel was off looking at the daisies while every other Canuck was huddled up going over plans and techniques and Trevor had to yell over...you gonna join us Pavel?

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Bernie Nicholls is at least close with 87 even strength points one year (and added a pretty impressive 14 shorthanded points for 101 total).  McDavid had 75 even strength points last year I think.

 

Yes he sure did.   And that puts him in the echelon for best seasons all-time by any NHL player.    Was super disappointed when he was traded.  Would have been great to see those two together for four or five more seasons.   

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

The buzz around Mario was that he didn't want to practice and didn't practice very hard when he did.  I wasn't around personally but that was his reputation to some degree.  Might have changed into his career...maybe after 1987 with Gretzky on Team Canada and by 1991 and 1992 he was as Alain Vigneault would agree "a man possessed."

 

But word was that he relied on his physical gifts and talents quite a bit...at least until he became the legendary version of Mario.  Like Allen Iverson says...how is he going to make his teammates better by practicing?

 

Pavel Bure had a bit of that as well.  He obviously put the gym time in and kept in great shape but there was one Canucks practice anyway where Pavel was off looking at the daisies while every other Canuck was huddled up going over plans and techniques and Trevor had to yell over...you gonna join us Pavel?

 

1987 was truly a pivotal series for Mario.   He learned from Gretzky and Messier and others on that team what it would take to win a championship, and to take his game to the next level.    

 

It's one thing to play 78-80 games, it's an entirely different thing, to play in long OT playoff games and brutal series over and over again.    One of the reasons I think a lot of the Islander guys, aside from Trottier, careers lost years, was a result of those 19 consecutive playoff rounds.   It's also why I have Potvin right up there after Bobby Orr.    A lot of those guys bodies just were beat to trash. 

 

After NYI won their last cup, Gretzky walked by their room and saw how exhausted they were, quietly celebrating.   It was then that he realized what it was going to actually take to win a cup against them.    Im not so sure they would have, if it wasn't their fifth final in a row. 

 

Edit:  EDM fans might have actually helped them too.   They found out what hotel they were staying in, and drove by all night honking their horns etc lol...trying to make sure they had no sleep.   They also modified the series for some unusual reason.   Can't remember why, but it gave EDM an advantage.  In the end, it was pretty perfect that NYI passed the torch.    

Edited August 16, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, shiznak said:

I mean, Lemieux had that “6th sense” too, just not in the same tier as Gretzky. I think someone posted that “no look, no touch assist” from the Olympics against the US. That was some 6th sense hokey, there. There’s also one assists I vaguely remember where he pretty much deked the entire Bruins team, made a no look pass, cross ice pass from the blueline to a wide open Olczyk.

One of my favourite things about Mario's career, was whenever he came back he went right back to showing why he was a god amongst mortals.  

[NewbieCanuckFan]

9 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

The buzz around Mario was that he didn't want to practice and didn't practice very hard when he did.  I wasn't around personally but that was his reputation to some degree.  Might have changed into his career...maybe after 1987 with Gretzky on Team Canada and by 1991 and 1992 he was as Alain Vigneault would agree "a man possessed."

 

But word was that he relied on his physical gifts and talents quite a bit...at least until he became the legendary version of Mario.  Like Allen Iverson says...how is he going to make his teammates better by practicing?

 

Pavel Bure had a bit of that as well.  He obviously put the gym time in and kept in great shape but there was one Canucks practice anyway where Pavel was off looking at the daisies while every other Canuck was huddled up going over plans and techniques and Trevor had to yell over...you gonna join us Pavel?

 

The plan:  Just give Pavel the puck & try not to get in his way.  And its not like he wasn't willing to 'share the glory' with his friends.  Gino I think got a better contract as a result of his feeds.

Edited August 16, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Kevin Biestra]

17 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

The plan:  Just give Pavel the puck & try not to get in his way.  And its not like he wasn't willing to 'share the glory' with his friends.  Gino I think got a better contract as a result of his feeds.

 

Yeah Pavel banked the puck in off Gino's shins and butt 16 times that year.  He probably could have scored two regular goals for every time he put the planning and energy into that.  Which would have put him at 92 for the season...

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah Pavel banked the puck in off Gino's shins and butt 16 times that year.  He probably could have scored two regular goals for every time he put the planning and energy into that.  Which would have put him at 92 for the season...

I remember listening to Gino on the radio years back, when the Twins were still playing. (2016?)

And Gino said he always thought the Twins deserved to have a true enforcer on their line. IMHAO Gino would have been perfect to play with the Twins. In that interview he was actually upset worh us for never getting a tough guy to play with the Sedins. Gino knew hockey and how important tough guys are to helping elite skill shine. And he sure helped Pavel shine. 

[Sean Monahan]

9 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

The buzz around Mario was that he didn't want to practice and didn't practice very hard when he did.  I wasn't around personally but that was his reputation to some degree.  Might have changed into his career...maybe after 1987 with Gretzky on Team Canada and by 1991 and 1992 he was as Alain Vigneault would agree "a man possessed."

 

But word was that he relied on his physical gifts and talents quite a bit...at least until he became the legendary version of Mario.  Like Allen Iverson says...how is he going to make his teammates better by practicing?

 

Pavel Bure had a bit of that as well.  He obviously put the gym time in and kept in great shape but there was one Canucks practice anyway where Pavel was off looking at the daisies while every other Canuck was huddled up going over plans and techniques and Trevor had to yell over...you gonna join us Pavel?

 

There was a guest on Spittin' Chiclets a while back who talked about playing on the Pens with Mario at the end of his career (maybe the 03-04 season). At the end of practice they're huddled up around center ice and Olcyzk tells them they've going to have a bag skate. A couple guys start shuffling down to the corner when Mario pipes up, "Hey Eddie"

 

Eddie: "Yeah?"

 

Mario: "Nuh-uh"

 

Eddie: "Alright guys hit the showers".

[NewbieCanuckFan]

15 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I remember listening to Gino on the radio years back, when the Twins were still playing. (2016?)

And Gino said he always thought the Twins deserved to have a true enforcer on their line. IMHAO Gino would have been perfect to play with the Twins. In that interview he was actually upset worh us for never getting a tough guy to play with the Sedins. Gino knew hockey and how important tough guys are to helping elite skill shine. And he sure helped Pavel shine. 

They actually had Wade Brookbank in that role and actually had scored a few goals in like half a dozen games riding shotgun in that line.  Unfortunately he couldn't much except be an enforcer and soon was put on waivers when the roster spot was needed for an actual player.  He was good as an enforcer as the Canucks & Sens played telephone tag claiming Brookbank off of waivers whenever the other would put him on waivers.

[Wise Guy]

3 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah Pavel banked the puck in off Gino's shins and butt 16 times that year.  He probably could have scored two regular goals for every time he put the planning and energy into that.  Which would have put him at 92 for the season...

I got to play in a weekly hockey game one summer organized by someone high up in the Canucks, my wife to be was their nanny. Many current (at the time) and past Canucks showed up and one game I got a hat trick with my wife to be watching, first goal bounced off my leg, second goal went in off my butt as I was falling and the third goal was actually a sweet wrist shot. Probably a good thing I looked good, Nedved was hitting on my wife at the time.

[Ghostsof1915]

4 minutes ago, Wise Guy said:

I got to play in a weekly hockey game one summer organized by someone high up in the Canucks, my wife to be was their nanny. Many current (at the time) and past Canucks showed up and one game I got a hat trick with my wife to be watching, first goal bounced off my leg, second goal went in off my butt as I was falling and the third goal was actually a sweet wrist shot. Probably a good thing I looked good, Nedved was hitting on my wife at the time.

Like I need more reason to hate Nedved.

[Elias Pettersson]

On 8/16/2023 at 12:55 AM, Kevin Biestra said:

 

The buzz around Mario was that he didn't want to practice and didn't practice very hard when he did.  I wasn't around personally but that was his reputation to some degree.  Might have changed into his career...maybe after 1987 with Gretzky on Team Canada and by 1991 and 1992 he was as Alain Vigneault would agree "a man possessed."

 

But word was that he relied on his physical gifts and talents quite a bit...at least until he became the legendary version of Mario.  Like Allen Iverson says...how is he going to make his teammates better by practicing?

 

Pavel Bure had a bit of that as well.  He obviously put the gym time in and kept in great shape but there was one Canucks practice anyway where Pavel was off looking at the daisies while every other Canuck was huddled up going over plans and techniques and Trevor had to yell over...you gonna join us Pavel?

 

Don Cherry used to rip into Mario on Coach's Corner every Saturday night.  He really didn't like him and thought he was a floater who didn't play defence.  It was true, Mario didn't do alot of backchecking early on in his career.  The 1987 Canada Cup really changed Mario.  Once he got to play with Gretzky and all the other superstars, he really started to change his game.  That's when he became Super Mario.  Mario won the Art Ross and Hart trophies right after that 1987 Canada Cup series in 1988.  It wasn't a coincidence...

[Kevin Biestra]

51 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Don Cherry used to rip into Mario on Coach's Corner every Saturday night.  He really didn't like him and thought he was a floater who didn't play defence.  It was true, Mario didn't do alot of backchecking early on in his career.  The 1987 Canada Cup really changed Mario.  Once he got to play with Gretzky and all the other superstars, he really started to change his game.  That's when he became Super Mario.  Mario won the Art Ross and Hart trophies right after that 1987 Canada Cup series in 1988.  It wasn't a coincidence...

 

Yeah it's something that Gretzky (walking the Islanders dressing room), Mario and Steve Yzerman (Scotty Bowman asking him if he wanted to score 150 points or if he wanted to win the Stanley Cup) have this one defining moment that turned them into champions.  I'm sure some other guys too.

[Ballisticsports.]

On 8/14/2023 at 9:59 AM, Elias Pettersson said:

The hockey guy says Wayne Gretzky is the greatest hockey player of all time. So this kind of puts a mic drop on your entire argument…

 

 

How many of the Greatest players have had their numbers retired by the NHL, not just their teams?

[Elias Pettersson]

11 minutes ago, Ballisticsports. said:

How many of the Greatest players have had their numbers retired by the NHL, not just their teams?

Only one number is retired by the NHL. 99…

[Kevin Biestra]

On 8/14/2023 at 8:34 AM, Ghostsof1915 said:

This is the state of the league with 21 teams in 1986-87.

 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1987.html

 

Notice anything? Only 9 out of the 21 teams had above .500 records.

 

The Leafs and Kings got in with 70 points, and 32, and 31 wins respectively. They made the playoffs with a .438 winning percentage.

 

The superstars feasted on the bottom feeders. Look at the Norris Division. 4 playoff teams and not one of them at or above .500.

 

There's a reason a lot of Gretzky's records were against Vancouver. He lit our team up almost every game we played against them.

 

That really doesn't mean anything at all.  There were no three point games back then.  A ".500 record" now or basically average / median team is something like 93 points.  Take away everybody's OTL and shootout points and you'll be right back to an accurate representation of .500.  A higher proportion of teams made the playoffs back then, and it was better that way.

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Kevin Biestra

[NewbieCanuckFan]

On 8/15/2023 at 11:39 PM, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Bernie Nicholls is at least close with 87 even strength points one year (and added a pretty impressive 14 shorthanded points for 101 total).  McDavid had 75 even strength points last year I think.

 

Kind of reminded me of Mike Gartner (minus Gartner's solid defensive skills).  Able to consistantly put up the points for a lengthy period of time.