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#61 Navyblue

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 01:01 AM

Michael Moore does get around dosn't he? He is so good at promoting himself.

He is a hyprocrite though, he attacks capitalism, yet he benefits from capitalism by making money off his books and movies. I wonder how much he makes and if he is a multi-millionare.


Wolf? Is that you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8rgICK2iAc

This interview reminds me of how much I can't stand CNN, especially Wolf Blitzer and Andy Cooper. I wonder if they still do fake broadcasts like the incubator baby fiasco pre gulf war.

I think Michael Moore genuinely cares. Just this guy's opinion though.
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#62 لني

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 01:20 AM

Wolf? Is that you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8rgICK2iAc

This interview reminds me of how much I can't stand CNN, especially Wolf Blitzer and Andy Cooper. I wonder if they still do fake broadcasts like the incubator baby fiasco pre gulf war.

I think Michael Moore genuinely cares. Just this guy's opinion though.

Sure he cares. The question is what does he care about. About what he's purports to care about? About exploiting popular sentiments?
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It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#63 لني

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 01:22 AM

The declaration:

Declaration of the Occupation of New York City

Posted on September 30, 2011 by NYCGA

THIS DOCUMENT WAS ACCEPTED BY THE NYC GENERAL ASSEMBLY ON SEPTEMBER 29, 2011

TRANSLATIONS: FRENCH, SLOVAK, SPANISH



As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press. They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts. *

To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!

*These grievances are not all-inclusive.

Update 10/1/11 – Minor updates to some wording in the facts.


Edited by Lonny Bohonos, 04 October 2011 - 01:23 AM.

Sent from my iPhone Canucks App

It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#64 Carpe Diem

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 05:56 AM

sounds like the brith of a left wing tea party to be honest.

#65 nucklehead

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 06:01 AM

Only it it's highjacked by politics. Then the power will be lost.
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#66 لني

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 06:02 AM

sounds like the brith of a left wing tea party to be honest.

Could it be that the 2-party monoply of the Republicans and Democrats are replaced by a 2-party monopoly of the rightwing Tea party and the leftwing Soy Milk Green Tea Chai Latte party?

Edited by Lonny Bohonos, 04 October 2011 - 06:11 AM.

Sent from my iPhone Canucks App

It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#67 Carpe Diem

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 06:02 AM

Sure he cares. The question is what does he care about. About what he's purports to care about? About exploiting popular sentiments?


If Michael Moore activism is eventually successful, he will end up paying more taxes, and probably have to end up making movies about something else. So he is acting against his self interest.

The Koch brothers on the other hand, are activists for causes that promotes their self interest. (less tax on the wealthy)

there is a difference there i feel.

#68 Carpe Diem

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 06:15 AM

Could I be that the 2-party monoply of the Republicans and Democrats are replaced by a 2-party monopoly of the rightwing Tea party and the leftwing Soy Milk Green Tea Chai Latte party?


the tea party will probably be fully embraced by the republicans I suspect. The democrats (at least the high level ones) will probably try very hard to avoid being too closly associated with the chai latte version.

#69 DonLever

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 06:55 AM

<br />the tea party will probably be fully embraced by the republicans I suspect.  The democrats (at least the high level ones) will probably try very hard to avoid being too closly associated with the chai latte version.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Actually, establishment Republicans hate the Tea Party and only pay lip service to them. Establishment Republicans are big business oriented and they get their power and money from corporations. They are in favour of of bailing out banks and large corporations. Establishment Republicans are those old school rich guys like the Rockefellas and the Bushes. These are the Yale and Ivy School people who look down on the Tea Party like they are country hicks. Believe it or not, they don't particularly like Sarah Palin or similar low class types.

While the aim of the Wall Street protestors and the Tea Party are different, they are both populist movements.
They share one common trait, both oppose the the bail out of banks and large corporations.

#70 Buggernut

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 10:56 AM

<br /><br /><br />

Actually, establishment Republicans hate the Tea Party and only pay lip service to them. Establishment Republicans are big business oriented and they get their power and money from corporations. They are in favour of of bailing out banks and large corporations. Establishment Republicans are those old school rich guys like the Rockefellas and the Bushes. These are the Yale and Ivy School people who look down on the Tea Party like they are country hicks. Believe it or not, they don't particularly like Sarah Palin or similar low class types.

Well then they don't have much right to criticize Obama's bailouts, do they?

BTW, Jay Rockefeller is a Democrat senator.

#71 bikeme

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 11:52 AM

I find it hilarious that a lot of these protestors and supporters of these protestors support Ron Paul, who wants a huge reduction in taxation and regulation of industries.


Hahah, yeah, Ron Paul is a total free-market supporter. Libertarianism as envisioned by Ron Paul involves a strengthening of corporate strangleholds. I think most Ron Paul supporters simply watch a youtube video or two and focus on the fact that he's one of the only American politicians who's down with pot...poor guys are starved for options ;)

Edited by bikeme, 04 October 2011 - 11:53 AM.


#72 Buggernut

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 11:59 AM

Hahah, yeah, Ron Paul is a total free-market supporter. Libertarianism as envisioned by Ron Paul involves a strengthening of corporate strangleholds.

But no corporate welfare nor bailouts.

#73 Johnny Debt

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 04:26 PM

It's about them complaining about how bad businesses and corporations are, even though their entire lifestyle is based on products and services which those same companies provide for them.

Plus, if they really want to be protesters and revolutionaries, put your money where your mouth is. If you hate Starbucks, Nike, Apple, Telus and Ford.... don't drive your little Ford Focus, while sporting the latest Nike runners, then heading down to the nearest Starbucks for a 5 dollars venti coffee to sit and chat with your friends meanwhile tweeting and surfing the internet with your iPhone from Telus to plan your next "big move" in your "proletariat struggles" with your wannabe socialist/communist friends.


So we need to grow our own coffee beans, build our own coffee makers, produce our own shoes, and build our own cars?
Oh, I'll break them down, no mercy shown
Heaven knows, it's got to be this time
Watching her, these things she said
The times she cried
Too frail to wake this time

#74 theminister

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 04:49 PM

Well then they don't have much right to criticize Obama's bailouts, do they?

BTW, Jay Rockefeller is a Democrat senator.



That just proves it's two sides of the same coin.

Ron Paul's appeal is that he is extremely intelligent and well informed, is pro USA and, most of all, is a complete departure from the 'business as usual' DC. Americans are beginning to clamour for real change, the kind they wanted at the last election. I expect that Mr Paul will do even better for himself this time and will continue to be blacked out and ridiculed by the main stream. He is, however, a chance to right the ship, something that neither party seems able to do.

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#75 Hume

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 09:16 PM

Jeff Mangum played a solo show for the protesters today, that's the coolest thing ever. i would have loved to have been there, oh man.
i've no idea what i am talking about! you'll go to hell for what your dirty mind is thiiiiiiiiiiiiiinkin'.
(i'm trapped in this body and can't get out.) how come i end up where i started?.
REASONABLE AND SENSIBLE.

#76 DonLever

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 09:19 PM

<br />That just proves it's two sides of the same coin.<br /><br />Ron Paul's appeal is that he is extremely intelligent and well informed, is pro USA and, most of all, is a complete departure from the 'business as usual' DC. Americans are beginning to clamour for real change, the kind they wanted at the last election. I expect that Mr Paul will do even better for himself this time and will continue to be blacked out and ridiculed by the main stream. He is, however, a chance to right the ship, something that neither party seems able to do.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

True, Ron Paul is one of the best politicians in the USA, regardless of party affiliation.

But his chances of being the GOP candidate is equivalent to the Toronto Maple Leafs winning the Stanley Cup.

#77 JonnyDraft

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 09:21 PM

That just proves it's two sides of the same coin.

Ron Paul's appeal is that he is extremely intelligent and well informed, is pro USA and, most of all, is a complete departure from the 'business as usual' DC. Americans are beginning to clamour for real change, the kind they wanted at the last election. I expect that Mr Paul will do even better for himself this time and will continue to be blacked out and ridiculed by the main stream. He is, however, a chance to right the ship, something that neither party seems able to do.


I'm all for Ron Paul. Via his economic policies the United States' economy will decline even more rapidly, crisis of accumulation and declining rates of profit will be accelerated, potentially allowing for the average American to wake up and realize it's time for change :)
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#78 WeatherWise

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 09:27 PM

Zombies have taken over Wall Street. Looks like they've abandoned Thriller and started to do the Wall Street Shuffle.

Hey, hey!

Edited by WeatherWise, 04 October 2011 - 09:29 PM.

The greatest segue into a weather segment.

#79 theminister

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 12:33 AM

<br /><br /><br />

True, Ron Paul is one of the best politicians in the USA, regardless of party affiliation.

But his chances of being the GOP candidate is equivalent to the Toronto Maple Leafs winning the Stanley Cup.


I can't argue with that logic, Don.

The Leafs will never win the Cup.

I'm all for Ron Paul. Via his economic policies the United States' economy will decline even more rapidly, crisis of accumulation and declining rates of profit will be accelerated, potentially allowing for the average American to wake up and realize it's time for change :)


You might be right. It might get worse under Paul... but it's certainly going to get worse without him anyway.

Maybe the US needs to hit rock bottom before they undergo true reform.

Without a radical change like Paul I see one of two scenarios for the States. 1) The break-up of the Union due to economic and political instability, or 2) civil war/insurrection within 20 years.

I am banking on the 1st scenario. Literally.

Edited by theminister, 05 October 2011 - 12:36 AM.

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#80 theminister

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 12:41 AM

I found this article interesting.

It appears even the Prison Planet wackos are against this movement.

Occupy Wall Street: A Globalist Op?
How can a Movement funded by Globalists end the Globalist Scheme to Enslave the World?


by Kurt Nimmo

How can a movement originated and funded by globalists end the globalist scheme to enslave the world?

“There is one major inaccuracy in all the coverage that has been bothering me, and that is the focus on Anonymous as the architects and organizers of the event,” an email received September 23 states. “The initial call for the protest was put out by the magazine Adbusters.”

The person, who shall remain nameless at this point – since I have not gained his permission to quote the private email he sent to me – is not merely a bystander or an outsider making an observation. He claims to be intimately connected to the movement through the General Assembly of New York [1], described as the central planning and organizing committee for the protest. His Facebook page reveals he is indeed connected to Occupy Wall Street.

The Adbusters Media Foundation describes itself [2] as a non-profit “anti-consumerist” organization that functions as “a global network of artists, activists, writers, pranksters, students, educators and entrepreneurs who want to advance the new social activist movement of the information age.”

Like many so-called leftist non-profits, Adbusters is a creature of globalist foundations. According to research conducted by Activistcash.com [3], Adbusters takes money from a number of supposedly progressive foundations, including the big Kahuna of leftish foundations – the Tides Foundation and Tides Center. Between 1996 and 2003, Tides doled out $334,217.00 to Adbusters, by far the largest amount of eight foundations donating.

Steve Baldwin [4] claims Tides received over $7 million from George Soros. Although the monetary connection between Tides’ founder Drummond Pike and the arch globalist [5] Soros is somewhat murky, researcher Ron Arnold [6] has mapped out numerous connections between the two so-called philanthropists. Under IRS rules, Drummond is not obliged to reveal who he receives money from to fund a large number of supposedly progressive organizations.

“The Tides Foundation is a pass-through for other foundations’ money,” writes Arnold. “Tides Foundation is a public charity, not a private foundation. Tides Foundation passes other foundations’ money to a spectrum of left-wing organizations which the original donors would not or could not support on their own… Because none of the more than 260 projects under the Tides umbrella files its own Form 990 with the IRS, their finances are totally secret and not available for public inspection, an issue that requires congressional remedy.”

The Dj Osiris [8] blog adds further detail: “It would seem George Soros is connected to the U.S. Day of Rage aka Occupy Wall Street through The Ruckus Society. On the U.S. Day of Rage website. [9] The Ruckus Society receives funding from the Tides Foundation [10] and George Soros’ Open Society Institute provides grants to Tides, including a mere $4.2 Million in 2008, the last year figures are available.”

As the filmmaker Michael Moore [11]admitted to We Are Change activist and journalist Luke Rudkowski last week, the goal of the movement funded in large part with globalist lucre is to attack and dismantle capitalism. Moore discounted out of hand any effort to end the Federal Reserve and return the nation to sound and honest money controlled by the American people, not a cartel of bankers and oligarchs from the financial class, including George Soros.

Instead of addressing issues that will solve the serious social and political problems created by fractional reserve banking and other scams run by the ruling elite, the Soros lubricated anti-capitalist movement will steer popular outrage and political reaction into fireproof channels that can be controlled by globalist forces behind the curtain.

On the so-called right side of the political spectrum, a similar operation was carried out against the Libertarian Tea Party movement, now largely a cheering section and amen choir for the establishment Republican Party that is dominated by neocon personalities such as Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, and the political cameleon and former Gore operative Rick Perry.

The Occupy Wall Street movement, funded by globalist foundations – and increasingly receiving sympathetic coverage by the corporate media, at least its “liberal” wing – is nowdescribing itself [12] as a gathering of “descamisados” (impoverished, landless) arrayed against the “estancieros” (land owners), a class warfare reference made popular in Argentina.

In reality, it is another consolidation of wealth program designed by the elite. Warren Buffet [13]may take to the pages of the New York Times and call for taxing the “rich,” but what he is advocating is in essence a wealth consolidation program.

The ruling elite, their banks and transnational corporations do not pay taxes [14], the little people do, as Leona Helmsely arrogantly noted. Increasing taxes on the “1 percent,” as the movement demands, to save the “99 percent,” will result in a further erosion of the middle class, as the elite know.

“The higher taxes may very well cause the smaller businesses to go out of business,” notes theCollateral Damage [15] blog. “They won’t have the economies of scale to compete with the bigger corporations, so what ends up happening is that the small business assets eventually get sold to the big corporations, usually for a fraction of what the assets are worth. So in effect, it ends up being a wealth transfer from the middle class to the super elite rich.”

If we look beyond the facile socialist rhetoric and examine who is funding and essentially running the Occupy Wall Street movement – the “liberal” foundations with the same globalist goal as their supposed ideological enemies on the so-called right (who defused the real Tea Party movement) – we realize that the movement is essentially another effort to colonize political opposition and render it ineffective and politically impotent.

The real movement, and the one posing a serious threat to the “1 percent,” the global elite, is calling for an end to the Federal Reserve, a return to the core principles of our once proud constitutional republic, and sound, honest money not controlled by the elite and the financial sector now tasked with taking down the economy and reducing America to a third-world wasteland.

Notes

[1] General Assembly of New York: http://www.thenation...wall-street-faq
[2] describes itself: http://www.adbusters...about/adbusters
[3] research conducted by Activistcash.com: http://activistcash..../o/36-adbusters
[4] Steve Baldwin: http://www.westernjo...eft-in-america/
[5] arch globalist: http://news.national...the-year-award/
[6] Ron Arnold: http://www.undueinfl...os-and-pike.htm
[7] Image: http://rotate.infowa...ee25&cb=1654322
[8] Dj Osiris: http://djosiris.blog...are-behind.html
[9] U.S. Day of Rage website.: http://usdayofrage.o...ayofrageca.html
[10] The Ruckus Society receives funding from the Tides Foundation: http://activistcash....-ruckus-society
[11] Michael Moore: http://www.prisonpla...al-reserve.html
[12] describing itself: http://coloneldespar...t-tax-the-rich/
[13] Warren Buffet: http://www.nytimes.c...super-rich.html
[14] do not pay taxes: http://boingboing.ne...ericas-lar.html
[15] Collateral Damage: http://blog.voogru.c...bout-his-taxes/

Kurt Nimmo is a frequent contributor to Global Research. Global Research Articles by Kurt Nimmo


http://www.globalres...xt=va&aid=26914

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#81 JonnyDraft

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 02:37 AM

I can't argue with that logic, Don.

The Leafs will never win the Cup.



You might be right. It might get worse under Paul... but it's certainly going to get worse without him anyway.

Maybe the US needs to hit rock bottom before they undergo true reform.

Without a radical change like Paul I see one of two scenarios for the States. 1) The break-up of the Union due to economic and political instability, or 2) civil war/insurrection within 20 years.

I am banking on the 1st scenario. Literally.


Full disclosure is required here. I am what many would refer to as a hardcore leftist (even that ugly term Marxist). I look at it from the standpoint that capitalism is full of internal contradictions bursting at the seams. The labour "crisis" in the late 70's and early 80's resulted in the current credit crisis of the '10s; to me, they're all connected. One proceeds the other as a correlation. Consequently, a man like Paul, who is a Libertarian, will merely magnify the these contradictions. That is, if it wasn't for big government looking out for the elite,our economic foundation would have had a major hiccup already. Massive banks - too big to fail - would have, under Paul, brought light to the crisis that our system is currently under.

I am all for market libertarians. I'll be honest, from an intellectual standpoint I think they're morons, but as an end game - anything that speeds up the process is a plus.
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#82 theminister

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 02:41 AM

Full disclosure is required here. I am what many would refer to as a hardcore leftist (even that ugly term Marxist). I look at it from the standpoint that capitalism is full of internal contradictions bursting at the seams. The labour "crisis" in the late 70's and early 80's resulted in the current credit crisis of the '10s; to me, they're all connected. One proceeds the other as a correlation. Consequently, a man like Paul, who is a Libertarian, will merely magnify the these contradictions. That is, if it wasn't for big government looking out for the elite,our economic foundation would have had a major hiccup already. Massive banks - too big to fail - would have, under Paul, brought light to the crisis that our system is currently under.

I am all for market libertarians. I'll be honest, from an intellectual standpoint I think they're morons, but as an end game - anything that speeds up the process is a plus.



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#83 bikeme

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 11:05 AM

I am all for market libertarians. I'll be honest, from an intellectual standpoint I think they're morons, but as an end game - anything that speeds up the process is a plus.


Interesting strategy.
I think free-market libertarianism is flawed, for traditional economic reasons, as well as the fact that it I think it would lead to a contradictory result: deregulation and increased "free" market (whatever that means) control would lead to increased power for the wealthy elite and corporations, and utimately less freedom (read: libertarian ideals) for the majority of people in the world.

On the other hand, that would probably cause me to not vote for Ron Paul...

But I've definitely heard the end-game argument. Since free-market capitalism became an economic reality (ironically legislated into existence), "left-wingers" have been preventing the collapse of such a ridiculously destructive economic system by introducing legislation to protect people from its destructiveness.

I think I'd have to be in a community that I thought could remain relatively self-sufficient for a long time before I would start voting or working towards the end game, instead of voting to try to prevent excesses of the "free" market ideology.

#84 JAH

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 11:18 AM

The thing is, America is under the illusion that they have a purely democratic system. They do not. It is more accurately described as a CAPITALIST system. Sure, they have democracy, much like a double double has milk, but the main ingredient in the US Political and Economic engine (which cannot really be seperated) is CAPITALISM.

The concept of regulation and taxation of the 'money-makers' (ie - the rich) is a foreign concept and contrary to capitalist ideals.

Right or wrong, this is the system they created. What they are protesting is not the rich breaking the rules or diverting from 'the plan', what they are protesting is the plan itself, which is their entire system of governance, business, and 'the American Dream'.

IMHO

Edited by JAH, 05 October 2011 - 12:05 PM.

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#85 dudeone

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 12:31 PM

Americans Prefer Occupy Wall Streeters to Congress

10/5/11 at 3:18 PM

http://nymag.com/dai...upy_wall_s.html

A new Rasmussen poll shows that 33 percent of Americans have a favorable view of the Wall Street protesters, compared with the 14 percent or so who said the same about the legislative branch. A whopping 79 percent also agreed with what Rasmussen characterized as the movement's main statement: "The big banks got bailed but the middle class got left behind." [PolitickerNY]

#86 Electro Rock

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 01:45 PM

There's nothing wrong with the American system per se, but it can't remain viable in the face of the morally tainted economic and social locust horde of a generation known as the Baby Boomers.

Nothing's truly getting fixed until these decadent entitlement junkies fade away.
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#87 #1MinnWildFan

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 02:45 PM

There's nothing wrong with the American system per se, but it can't remain viable in the face of the morally tainted economic and social locust horde of a generation known as the Baby Boomers.

Nothing's truly getting fixed until these decadent entitlement junkies fade away.


If the richest ones and the corporations paid their fair share of taxes, a lot of what's wrong would be fixed.

#88 JonnyDraft

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 06:01 PM

Interesting strategy.
I think free-market libertarianism is flawed, for traditional economic reasons, as well as the fact that it I think it would lead to a contradictory result: deregulation and increased "free" market (whatever that means) control would lead to increased power for the wealthy elite and corporations, and utimately less freedom (read: libertarian ideals) for the majority of people in the world.

On the other hand, that would probably cause me to not vote for Ron Paul...

But I've definitely heard the end-game argument. Since free-market capitalism became an economic reality (ironically legislated into existence), "left-wingers" have been preventing the collapse of such a ridiculously destructive economic system by introducing legislation to protect people from its destructiveness.

I think I'd have to be in a community that I thought could remain relatively self-sufficient for a long time before I would start voting or working towards the end game, instead of voting to try to prevent excesses of the "free" market ideology.


This is why many have argued that the state is merely an arm of capital. I am not certain I agree entirely with that sentiment, but I do believe that the Democrats and Republicans are both "Wall Street" parties; not unlike the Conservatives and Liberals.

I suppose in the 'States it could be argued that many Republicans have absolute faith in the laissez-faire market - believing that individual rationality will translate into a societal common good. Whereas Democrats believe this to an extent, but lean more on the side of Capitalism with a "human face". With respect to both, there is an underlying belief that individual rationality, largely "proven" on marginalist economic principles, all in society will prosper.

This leaves one in a difficult predicament, like you alluded to. If someone, like myself, rejects neoclassical economics and all their predictive powers (such as an increase in the standard of living over time), what are they to do? Vote for the party which seemingly has more concern for social programs and so on but will also continue to prop up a failed ideology? Or does one vote for the absolute ideologues who have the ability to make life, in the short term, much worse off for the masses? It's an interesting question which I'm not sure I know the answer to.


There's nothing wrong with the American system per se, but it can't remain viable in the face of the morally tainted economic and social locust horde of a generation known as the Baby Boomers.

Nothing's truly getting fixed until these decadent entitlement junkies fade away.


How is it you can blame the baby boomers? Before them there was a great depression arguably pulled out because of war. Following that there was the crisis of capital accumulation in the 1970s in the United States; American companies were becoming less competitive and productive compared with their Japanese, German and SE Asian counterparts. The baby boomers were born during the beginning of America's "Golden Age", but make no mistake, they were not responsible for it's end.

If the richest ones and the corporations paid their fair share of taxes, a lot of what's wrong would be fixed.


How so?
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#89 Navyblue

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 07:08 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQow0Fhua1A

Sure he cares. The question is what does he care about. About what he's purports to care about? About exploiting popular sentiments?



I believe he is genuine and not some one exploiting current feelings of his countrymen and women.

Like I said, it is only my opinion....

Edited by Navyblue, 05 October 2011 - 07:16 PM.

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#90 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 01:26 AM



Edited by Scorpio Ego, 06 October 2011 - 01:35 AM.

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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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