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Raymond? Do We Really Want Him?


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#211 smithers joe

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 12:10 PM

let's see, our team is near the top of the league, striving to win us, our first ever stanley cup.....why wouldn't we tear down our players and tell them, they suck?....we've done it to luongo, AV, bieksa, salo, ballard, weise, malhotra, rome, alberts and who knows, who else....are we never satisfied?
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#212 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 01:22 PM

let's see, our team is near the top of the league, striving to win us, our first ever stanley cup.....why wouldn't we tear down our players and tell them, they suck?....we've done it to luongo, AV, bieksa, salo, ballard, weise, malhotra, rome, alberts and who knows, who else....are we never satisfied?


The simple answer to that is not until we win a Cup, Joe.

Until that happens, it will always be somebody's fault; either a player (usually Louie) or the head coach. Injuries will never be factored in. It will always be a case of not making the proper "adjustments".

Honestly, if Gillis would just listen to the "experts" around here who know exactly what is wrong with the team, we'd have won three or four Cups by now....
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#213 Tearloch7

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 02:27 PM

Well said, Bodee .. +1 .. fickle folk abound .. Raymond loves it when Ballard is healthy as Keith gets the "hate" .. :P
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#214 FeStealth

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 03:19 PM

Could you not have said exactly the same thing about each of those players I mentioned at age 26? Then they got smarter and started using they're skills better. How can you possibly say without a doubt that Raymond can't get better? Without a crystal ball you can't.


The difference is that Raymond gives 100% each time, but marginal results. Bertuzzi was just lazy most of the time, Naslund wasn't sure if he wanted to stay in the NHL, and the twins didn't take their off-season workout as serious (IIRC, they used to say their off-season training consisted of only playing soccer all summer, until the lockout). Everyone knew the potential of Naslund, Bertuzzi, Henrik, Daniel.... they are to be PPG players, the same can't be said about Mason Raymond.

Raymond always has and always will suffer from tunnel vision. He can play the game, but he can't think the game as well as other players. For a speedy player, he doesn't seem to get any breakaways or blow by defenders unlike other speedy players in the NHL (Grabner, Hossa, Kane, etc).

Spoiler


The NHL is a business and you can get more bang for your buck than what Mason is earning and what he will be expecting next contract. When there are players like Bill Sweatt, Jordan Schroeder and Anton Rodin, who are all top-6 prospects earning half of what Raymond is earning..... you realize more than Raymond is expensive for what he brings. Doing the little thing is good, but it doesn't worth 2.5-3 million dollar contract.
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----

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#215 Eagle Eye

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:11 PM

Mason will become a great player, all he needs is more time to develop. That includes the regular opportunity to play on the power play. He requires 16 - 18 minutes ice time per game to properly develop. Its hard for any young player to develop when you have Sedins on your team. The Sedins must have No. 1 line status and P.P. This takes away from any ones development. Remember 2 years ago when Raymond led the team in P.P. goals with 8. After that he was dropped from No. 1 P.P. The main reason was the salary cap. Can't pay him too much. Just like Cody H. is ready to explode with his talent, but salary will keep his ability and status in check. Good teams do not develop their players quickly otherwise they can't hold their team together, salary cap won't allow it.

Raymond will achieve a higher level in the next year or two. He will develop quicker if he is traded away to a non contender. For Raymond it would be in his best interests to be traded in the off season.
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#216 Pride

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:18 AM

raymond does not have the hockey iq to advance much farther. he is one of the least gifted players on the team as far as offensive creativity goes
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#217 Bodee

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 10:20 AM

When there are players like Bill Sweatt, Jordan Schroeder and Anton Rodin, who are all top-6 prospects earning half of what Raymond is earning.

Much as I like all these players, I watch Chicago Wolves and it will be 2/3 seasons before we get the kind of return we get from Raymond just now.








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#218 Bodee

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:31 PM

Another strong game from Raymond against the Leafs. Showed exactly what he does for us.

Forechecking and back checking, releasing the pressure, carrying the puck calmly, at speed out of our defensive zone, on hand for the breakaway pass at all times, laid some terrific passes off to team mates and was unlucky with a couple of scintillating shots.

No coincidence then that we played well....................AV always knows best. :)
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#219 Millerdraft

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 05:37 PM

Another strong game from Raymond against the Leafs. Showed exactly what he does for us.

Forechecking and back checking, releasing the pressure, carrying the puck calmly, at speed out of our defensive zone, on hand for the breakaway pass at all times, laid some terrific passes off to team mates and was unlucky with a couple of scintillating shots.

No coincidence then that we played well....................AV always knows best. :)


I also thought he played well, again, but he got kind of skewered by Kuzma in the local rags today for not registering a shot on goal (I was at the game and was sure he had one on a Booth screen that was a blocker save by the Leafs' goalie?). He's just not getting points but it's not as if he's nullifying offensive chances as of late (something I felt he was doing three-four weeks ago) and his defensive play was been solid (everyone thinks Kessel "fanned" on an empty-netter last night when in fact a perfectly timed slash by Raymond on an unsuspecting Phil Kessel's hands caused him to whiff).
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Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#220 CanucksJay

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:34 AM

Tony G is all over him on 1040 right now.

He basically said when we have a cream puff weekend playing TO and Edm and all 4 lines are rolling for 11 goals in 2 games, to have Raymond not even register a shot in the 2 games is pretty amusing.

I know I started the thread but I do feel bad about the amount of heat he is now getting from the media.

While this thread was started be me, scrutinizing Raymond's play has helped me realize that he is a solid bottom 6 guy and is good for a checking line as long as he has other line mates that are bigger and more physical to play with him.

I think his offence is clearly lacking and while he is on 2nd line right now, if we are able to acquire a solid 2nd liner, it would be nice to have Raymond/Hansen rotate on the 3rd line to play with Higgins and Hodgson with the other one moving down to 4th to play with Lapierre and Maholtra
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#221 D-Money

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:46 AM

I think his offence is clearly lacking and while he is on 2nd line right now, if we are able to acquire a solid 2nd liner, it would be nice to have Raymond/Hansen rotate on the 3rd line to play with Higgins and Hodgson with the other one moving down to 4th to play with Lapierre and Maholtra


We don't have the cap room to invest over 5 million on 2/3 of a 4th line.

I have no problem with Raymond, but it's clear his cap space exceeds his value to us. Another team may feel differently though.
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#222 TheCammer

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:48 AM

I have made an attempt to watch Raymond very closely the last few games and see if the flak he is taking is fair(I even re-watched the Leaf game yesterday morning). In my opinion I see him using his speed on the forecheck and getting the other team to turnover pucks which has created good opportunities for his linemates. He made several smart passing plays in both games feeding the points for shots from the point.

I really think some of the media read the stat lines and assume how a player is playing rather than actually watching them. Raymond has become the "flavour of the day" whipping boy for the media, most of whom have likely never strapped on a pair of skates.

Do we need more out of him offensively? Yes, but people need to recognize his forechecking, penalty-killing and defensive responsibility are real assets for the team.
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#223 Tearloch7

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 11:28 AM

I have made an attempt to watch Raymond very closely the last few games and see if the flak he is taking is fair(I even re-watched the Leaf game yesterday morning). In my opinion I see him using his speed on the forecheck and getting the other team to turnover pucks which has created good opportunities for his linemates. He made several smart passing plays in both games feeding the points for shots from the point.

I really think some of the media read the stat lines and assume how a player is playing rather than actually watching them. Raymond has become the "flavour of the day" whipping boy for the media, most of whom have likely never strapped on a pair of skates.

Do we need more out of him offensively? Yes, but people need to recognize his forechecking, penalty-killing and defensive responsibility are real assets for the team.


I agree, BUT, if we could get the same qualities with size and grit we should seize the moment .. Rutuu on the second line and Higgins on the third appeal to me ..
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"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

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#224 keslerian one

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 11:45 AM

Great forechecker and backchecker.

Plays seem to die in his stick.

Weak along the boards and subpar at cycling the puck.

Good speed but needs to improve puckhandling.

Good at finding open spaces and moving without the puck. Not good at getting shots through.

Needs to use body more. Offseason work to add some weight will help.

Good pk and good shootout guy.


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#225 Raph

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 11:58 AM

< 30% success rate is not considered good at shootouts.
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Untouchables: Tanev, Jensen, Kassian
Mostly untouchable: Sedins (need someone to man the fort and no trade value)
Open to trade: Everyone else
Drive to airport: Bieksa, Edler

Bring back: Ehrhoff

#226 riffraff

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 01:19 PM

Tony G is all over him on 1040 right now.

He basically said when we have a cream puff weekend playing TO and Edm and all 4 lines are rolling for 11 goals in 2 games, to have Raymond not even register a shot in the 2 games is pretty amusing.

I know I started the thread but I do feel bad about the amount of heat he is now getting from the media.

While this thread was started be me, scrutinizing Raymond's play has helped me realize that he is a solid bottom 6 guy and is good for a checking line as long as he has other line mates that are bigger and more physical to play with him.

I think his offence is clearly lacking and while he is on 2nd line right now, if we are able to acquire a solid 2nd liner, it would be nice to have Raymond/Hansen rotate on the 3rd line to play with Higgins and Hodgson with the other one moving down to 4th to play with Lapierre and Maholtra


seriously not even a shot?
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CanucksSayEh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:
When the playoffs come around, nobody is scared of getting in a fight, but every night, they get their mom to check under the bed for Raffi Torres.

#227 hockeyville88

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 01:20 PM

11 goals in 2 games and Mason Raymond didn't record a single point
The only other skater who went pointless over the two weekend games was Aaron Rome.

If being a 4th line grinder was all the potential he had I don't think we'd be critical of him. I mean, when Lapierre doesn't score for a certain amount of time we don't care because that's not his main job.

But Raymond is so much more than that. When he's on his game he can be a 20-goal scorer no problem. It's just a waste of talent when he doesn't show up on the scoresheet for extended periods of time IMO.
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#228 hackamore

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 01:58 PM

11 goals in 2 games and Mason Raymond didn't record a single point
The only other skater who went pointless over the two weekend games was Aaron Rome.

If being a 4th line grinder was all the potential he had I don't think we'd be critical of him. I mean, when Lapierre doesn't score for a certain amount of time we don't care because that's not his main job.

But Raymond is so much more than that. When he's on his game he can be a 20-goal scorer no problem. It's just a waste of talent when he doesn't show up on the scoresheet for extended periods of time IMO.


Just talking points for the weekend according to the stat page Hamuis, Booth, Tanev, Hodgson, Raymond, and Rome went pointless, so Raymond was not alone
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#229 hockeyville88

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 02:51 PM

Just talking points for the weekend according to the stat page Hamuis, Booth, Tanev, Hodgson, Raymond, and Rome went pointless, so Raymond was not alone

Hodgson assisted on the Higgins goal (Edm) but other than that you're correct
I was using the Score Mobile app and didn't realize that the column was +/- and not points. Thanks for the correction :)
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#230 kilgore

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 03:34 PM

Just talking points for the weekend according to the stat page Hamuis, Booth, Tanev, Hodgson, Raymond, and Rome went pointless, so Raymond was not alone


There's a difference between Points and Shots on Goal.
Only Tanev, the rookie Defenseman, didn't have at least one shot during those two games.
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#231 MistaT

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 03:39 PM

Pro's:

Great backchecker
Dangerous speed
Creates room for linemates

Con's:

Limited offensive production
Weak, non hitter
Clearly off form

Overall - while I appreciate the room he makes for his linemates with his speed and the defensive work he does it doesn't amount to enough to excuse his lack of production.

With him on the 2nd line really only Booth looks a constant goal threat, with Kesler chipping in big but infrequent goals.
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#232 Ṣpiderman

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 04:14 PM

Great forechecker and backchecker.

Plays seem to die in his stick.

Weak along the boards and subpar at cycling the puck.

Good speed but needs to improve puckhandling.

Good at finding open spaces and moving without the puck. Not good at getting shots through.

Needs to use body more. Offseason work to add some weight will help.

Good pk and good shootout guy.


Very good assessment of Raymond. I'll add one more to the list.

Raymond doesn't know how to use his speed to cut to the net, whereas Booth does. Raymond uses his speed to stay on the outside and that's not going to work. When he came back from his injury, he did use his speed to drive the net/slot and played really well. However, he's reverted back to his old ways and is playing the wrong way once again. He has speed, but he's not utilizing it properly.

Great backchecker though.
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#233 Pride

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 04:54 PM

i have been wanting to get rid of raymond for years. too bad we didnt trade him after his "breakout" season when we could have got a great return.

what a waste
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#234 Cindilette

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 04:58 PM

Hodgson assisted on the Higgins goal (Edm) but other than that you're correct
I was using the Score Mobile app and didn't realize that the column was +/- and not points. Thanks for the correction :)


No, Hodgson didn't get the assist in that goal because he didn't touch the puck. I'm pretty sure only Hansen got the assist.
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#235 Tearloch7

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 05:30 PM

Raymond NEED'S to be a great back-checker the way he is turning the puck over in the offensive zone ..
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"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

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#236 bobopan

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 06:03 PM

I keep reading how "oh Raymond didn't get a full off-season to workout" etc as if that's the reason why he isn't scoring.. this is the same guy that scored 2 goals in 23 playoff games...with one of them being an empty netter.

We know what were gonna get from him, his speed is fantastic and he is a very solid defensive player. That said he is never going to bulk up.. He is always going to be a small player and he is not suited for playoff hockey.

If MG can improve the team i would deal him with no hesitation.. If the right deal doesn't come around then keep him around and pray he can improve on last years dreadful output.

I just see him as not good enough for the 2nd line and not the right guy for the 3rd id like to see more size.
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#237 Ugli Fruit

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:28 PM

seriously not even a shot?


Wow, now people complain that he doesn't shoot enough? I thought his biggest problem was shooting too much and not passing enough. :picard:

I probably watch Raymond the closest out of everyone on the team (maybe Ballard) because they always take so much heat, and Raymond played very solidly vs Edm. Yes, he did not get a shot on goal, but he made a number of good passes that resulted in a scoring chance.

Why don't you watch him closer next time and see how the guy plays? People generally tend to remember negative things more than positive things if you're biased against the person, and that's how it is with a lot of Canuck players.

Edited by LordofBrussels, 20 February 2012 - 08:43 PM.

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Formerly known as LordofBrussels

There we have it folks, we have literally blamed everyone for everything at this point


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#238 Avicii

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:33 PM

I would re-sign Raymond for what Hansen is making, make him a defensive player.

His offensive skills are a joke.
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#239 Ugli Fruit

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:42 PM

Oops

Edited by LordofBrussels, 20 February 2012 - 08:42 PM.

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Formerly known as LordofBrussels

There we have it folks, we have literally blamed everyone for everything at this point


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#240 Sick Hands

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:45 PM

I would re-sign Raymond for what Hansen is making, make him a defensive player. His offensive skills are a joke.


We already have a Hansen, not to mention Hansen is MUCH better around the boards and checking than Raymond.

This team doesnt need more redundancies. Dump MayRay off on some sucker GM before he realizes his potential has already hit.
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