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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#2551 oldnews

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:59 PM

Who in the league would fit with the Sedins best?

My vote is Iginla.


Aside from Burrows whom I wll not say a bad thing about

(and of course Perry or Seguin would be deadly) - but aside from those obvious top choices:

Physical option - I'd love to see them play with Dustin Brown
Skill option - I'd love to see them play with Jordan Eberle.

If Alfredsson or Iginla were younger...

Edited by oldnews, 15 December 2012 - 02:59 PM.

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#2552 King of the ES

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:27 PM

Still waiting for an answer on this one:
Who is he better than, Hamhius or Edler?


Waiting on an answer? We had a whole discussion on this already. My answer is that Phaneuf is better than BOTH, and if you altered situations with either guy, Hamhuis/Edler would probably fade into obscurity on Toronto, and Phaneuf would be an absolute star in Vancouver. Look what happened with Ehrhoff. Did he just forget how to play hockey after signing in Buffalo, or could his stats have been a derivative of a well-coached team with depth?
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#2553 King of the ES

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:30 PM

Who in the league would fit with the Sedins best?

My vote is Iginla.


That'd be incredible. And I actually have a feeling that the Flames would have pretty decent interest in a guy like Mason Raymond. But we'd probably need to give a package along the lines of Raymond, Sauve, and a 1st. I'd do it.
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#2554 Pears

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:33 PM

That'd be incredible. And I actually have a feeling that the Flames would have pretty decent interest in a guy like Mason Raymond. But we'd probably need to give a package along the lines of Raymond, Sauve, and a 1st. I'd do it.

If Raymond, Sauve and a 1st was all it took to get Jarome freaking Iginla MG would be an idiot to not accept.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#2555 King of the ES

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:36 PM

Typical King - Kessel was compared to his team-mates - the guys you claim are so bad, while he is so good, but held back by them. He didn't compare favourably did he - so you sidetrack into comparing the Leafs as a whole to the rest of the league, and nonsense straw words about Nash and Tavares. Weak stuff King. Kessel = 20th, 29th, 20th on the Leafs, within the Leafs, and compared to other Leafs. Deal with that.

This is what you do when you can't answer actual points. You alter them. Shots are a good thing, why are you shunning Kessel for taking shots blah, blah - neither of those had anything to do with the point I was making.


You're making a lot of noise for a guy who's main point is that his plus/minus relative to the other Toronto Maple Leafs was bad, which is a very weak and largely irrelevant point. Plus/minus is a team-driven statistic. What happens if Kessel's on the ice, and Gunnarsson gives the puck away by himself, leads to a breakaway and a goal? Kessel's fault?

There are way too many holes in the plus/minus stat to form an opinion of a player, which you seem to be clearly doing. Ignore his 100 goals accumulated over 3 seasons, focus on his relative plus/minus ranking. Which one is more black and white?

Edited by King of the ES, 15 December 2012 - 03:39 PM.

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#2556 King of the ES

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:39 PM

If Raymond, Sauve and a 1st was all it took to get Jarome freaking Iginla MG would be an idiot to not accept.


He's not the same player that he was 5 years ago, that's for sure. He's slowed down a fair bit. If not in stats, in the literal sense. But he would be perfect.

Roster player/Decent prospect/1st would be a pretty good return, I would think. But yes, I'm sure some other team could come along and offer something better.
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#2557 higgyfan

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:03 PM

Uh whatever. Not your "buddy" - and you'll have to come up with more than that to convince me of my 'ignorance.'

Your post really calls for nothing but mimicry... 'I can't believe you think Phaneuf, Kessel and Kadri are worth 'strip mining' the Canucks roster (and throwing in two 1sts). Really? Two over-rated Leafs "core" players - their bad team is built around these guys and their problems start right there.'

Blah, blah - you must "hate" the Canucks to devalue those guys the way you do... you must "love" the Leafs... blah blah. Dude, your density is obvious...
W.O.T.


Fan boy much? Two olympic players and a

Uh whatever. Not your "buddy" - and you'll have to come up with more than that to convince me of my 'ignorance.'

Your post really calls for nothing but mimicry... 'I can't believe you think Phaneuf, Kessel and Kadri are worth 'strip mining' the Canucks roster (and throwing in two 1sts). Really? Two over-rated Leafs "core" players - their bad team is built around these guys and their problems start right there.'

Blah, blah - you must "hate" the Canucks to devalue those guys the way you do... you must "love" the Leafs... blah blah. Dude, your density is obvious...
W.O.T.


So loosing Ballard, Raymond, UFA Edler, Solong Luongo and 2 low draft picks is strip mining the Canucks? And in return we get the option of keeping or trading 2 olympic (2012)players, a C prospect that is playing far better than any of our prospects in the AHL and an exptremely good D prospect.
Sorry, but being a fan of the Nucks doesn't mean you have to be a home fanboy. I would say that Mike Gillis would be delerious if he was offered this trade.
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#2558 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:23 PM

Who in the league would fit with the Sedins best?

My vote is Iginla.


I'll say Perry or Nash.
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#2559 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:26 PM

That'd be incredible. And I actually have a feeling that the Flames would have pretty decent interest in a guy like Mason Raymond. But we'd probably need to give a package along the lines of Raymond, Sauve, and a 1st. I'd do it.


Would never be accepted.

You say our proposal's are terrible for the other side yet this is one of the worst I have seen. (Sorry for burying you so soon after agreeing but c'mon)

Calgary would want a useful roster player, a good prospect and a 1st to top it off, but for a team in the division it would take more.

No chance they would trade him us for the same price it would require a team like Philly or NYR to get him, it would take more.
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#2560 King of the ES

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:39 PM

Would never be accepted.

You say our proposal's are terrible for the other side yet this is one of the worst I have seen. (Sorry for burying you so soon after agreeing but c'mon)

Calgary would want a useful roster player, a good prospect and a 1st to top it off, but for a team in the division it would take more.

No chance they would trade him us for the same price it would require a team like Philly or NYR to get him, it would take more.


Mason Raymond is a useful roster player. He happened to be whipping boy last year; NBD, Bieksa's been that once or twice, and almost certainly will before his high-priced new contract runs out. Next Canuck whipping boy to-be is David Booth; at least that's my prediction, anyway.

Raymond's 27 years old; consider his resume:
-Great speed
-By all accounts, a great teammate
-5 NHL seasons under his belt
-51 playoff games played, included an SCF appearance
-2 President's Trophy winning teams
-25-goal, 53-point campaign in 2009-10 as a 24 year-old

And further, for Calgary, he's an Alberta boy - Cochrane is 45 minutes out of Calgary. Some of Raymond's very best performances have come against the Flames. It would be a very reasonable gamble for them to then sign him to an extension - buying low, in effect - and hoping that he could sustain a spot on the second line, which I would call likely.

EDIT: forgot to mention the reason for Calgary being willing to trade with us: Jarome Iginla himself. Vancouver's a 1-hour plane ride from Calgary. There's been a healthy level of respect between Jarome and the Canucks (remember Linden's sendoff, in '08?). I can't picture a more perfect complement to the twins than Jarome Iginla. And if Calgary sucks, and we don't, I wouldn't be all that surprised for something like that to happen.

Edited by King of the ES, 15 December 2012 - 04:43 PM.

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#2561 WiDeN

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:42 PM

That'd be incredible. And I actually have a feeling that the Flames would have pretty decent interest in a guy like Mason Raymond. But we'd probably need to give a package along the lines of Raymond, Sauve, and a 1st. I'd do it.

If that was the price, then we would have him already.
They would be looking for Schroeder/Gaunce/Jensen in the deal for sure.

I'd bet that we would have serious competition for Iginla if he were available, because I know Pittsburgh would love to have him, and could offer up a pretty sweet package.

Edit: Why would any team not want Iginla? Unless we were willing to drop our trousers on the deal, I bet we would be out bid.

Edited by WiDeN, 15 December 2012 - 04:44 PM.

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#2562 King of the ES

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:47 PM

If that was the price, then we would have him already.
They would be looking for Schroeder/Gaunce/Jensen in the deal for sure.

I'd bet that we would have serious competition for Iginla if he were available, because I know Pittsburgh would love to have him, and could offer up a pretty sweet package.

Edit: Why would any team not want Iginla? Unless we were willing to drop our trousers on the deal, I bet we would be out bid.


He's not for sale, so the price at this point would be unknown. However, for a guy like him, a UFA-to-be, I wouldn't want to get too carried away. Roster player/good prospect/pick is a pretty good bid. If they'd want Schroeder/Gaunce/Jensen instead of Sauve & the 1st, fine.

And as for why they might want to send him to Vancouver, see my above post's commentary.
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#2563 WiDeN

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:56 PM

He's not for sale, so the price at this point would be unknown. However, for a guy like him, a UFA-to-be, I wouldn't want to get too carried away. Roster player/good prospect/pick is a pretty good bid. If they'd want Schroeder/Gaunce/Jensen instead of Sauve & the 1st, fine.

And as for why they might want to send him to Vancouver, see my above post's commentary.

Yeah, I can see them liking Raymond, but I can also see them not wanting to trade Iggy to a division rival.

I would do that trade in a heart beat though.
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#2564 oldnews

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:58 PM

You're making a lot of noise for a guy who's main point is that his plus/minus relative to the other Toronto Maple Leafs was bad, which is a very weak and largely irrelevant point. Plus/minus is a team-driven statistic. What happens if Kessel's on the ice, and Gunnarsson gives the puck away by himself, leads to a breakaway and a goal? Kessel's fault?

There are way too many holes in the plus/minus stat to form an opinion of a player, which you seem to be clearly doing. Ignore his 100 goals accumulated over 3 seasons, focus on his relative plus/minus ranking. Which one is more black and white?


Your point might make sense if you were comparing plus/minus of players on different teams - I don't expect you to see the obvious contradiction of Kessel relative to his team-mates - and it would be quite a coincidence if all Kessel's minuses were a result of someone else wouldn't it King - considering the consistency with which he lands in the 20 to 29 spot on that team.

Ok there - a little recap according to King:

Hits don't matter - useless stat
Shooting percentage doesn't matter - useless stat
Plus/minus doesn't matter - useless stat.
Shall we add relative corsi, save percentage, etc to the list...

What does matter is KIng's opinion, which disregards all these things that 'don't matter.'
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#2565 King of the ES

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:14 PM

Ok there - a little recap according to King:

Hits don't matter - useless stat
Shooting percentage doesn't matter - useless stat
Plus/minus doesn't matter - useless stat.
Shall we add relative corsi, save percentage, etc to the list...

What does matter is KIng's opinion, which disregards all these things that 'don't matter.'


On hitting: it's unreliable. "Hit" means what, exactly? Hitting is also something where "severity" needs to be considered. IE, Burrows might have more total hits than Tootoo, but that's more a function of the ice-time that he's given. And who's do you think leave more of an impact? Is frequency more relevant than severity? Not reliable at all.

Shooting percentage means nothing. Go ask Kyle Wellwood what a high shooting percentage has done for him in contract negotiations.

Plus/minus tells you something, but not everything. Is everybody on Toronto a horrible defensive player, or is their team perhaps just not that good as a unit? And back to Kessel, how do you know that he's not instructed by his coach to loaf around and cherry-pick so as to produce offense/be exposed to breakaways as much as possible? Could well be strategic.

Point? Ignoring 100 goals in 3 seasons playing in the most scrutinized market there is as a 22 - 25 year-old golden boy while also being ridiculed constantly because of Burke's trade "gaffe", yet harping on him having a very low plus/minus rating, is pretty pathetic.
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#2566 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:20 PM

Mason Raymond is a useful roster player. He happened to be whipping boy last year; NBD, Bieksa's been that once or twice, and almost certainly will before his high-priced new contract runs out. Next Canuck whipping boy to-be is David Booth; at least that's my prediction, anyway.

Raymond's 27 years old; consider his resume:
-Great speed
-By all accounts, a great teammate
-5 NHL seasons under his belt
-51 playoff games played, included an SCF appearance
-2 President's Trophy winning teams
-25-goal, 53-point campaign in 2009-10 as a 24 year-old

And further, for Calgary, he's an Alberta boy - Cochrane is 45 minutes out of Calgary. Some of Raymond's very best performances have come against the Flames. It would be a very reasonable gamble for them to then sign him to an extension - buying low, in effect - and hoping that he could sustain a spot on the second line, which I would call likely.

EDIT: forgot to mention the reason for Calgary being willing to trade with us: Jarome Iginla himself. Vancouver's a 1-hour plane ride from Calgary. There's been a healthy level of respect between Jarome and the Canucks (remember Linden's sendoff, in '08?). I can't picture a more perfect complement to the twins than Jarome Iginla. And if Calgary sucks, and we don't, I wouldn't be all that surprised for something like that to happen.


The Asking price would be:

Booth, Jensen, 1st.

No thanks to that.


Raymond is a 2nd/3rd liner tweener. Calgary doesn't need that, they already have: Stempniak, Stajan, Backlund, Comeau, Glencross, and Cervenka who fill that description well.

You think for them to give up there long time Captain and franchise player it would take more than a mediocre 3rd liner, a low level prospect (Big Sauve fan but he isn't more than a 6/7 at best) and a Late First. Especially for a rival team, it has nothing to do with if Jarome wants to be here or not, it's if the Flames want to trade him to a division rival and have to play him in all those divisional game every year.


Edit: And regardless, there are eastern teams that have more assets they are willing to spend to get him and, those teams being in the East would make more sense for Calgary.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 15 December 2012 - 05:22 PM.

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#2567 WiDeN

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:21 PM

On hitting: it's unreliable. "Hit" means what, exactly? Hitting is also something where "severity" needs to be considered. IE, Burrows might have more total hits than Tootoo, but that's more a function of the ice-time that he's given. And who's do you think leave more of an impact? Is frequency more relevant than severity? Not reliable at all.

Shooting percentage means nothing. Go ask Kyle Wellwood what a high shooting percentage has done for him in contract negotiations.

Plus/minus tells you something, but not everything. Is everybody on Toronto a horrible defensive player, or is their team perhaps just not that good as a unit? And back to Kessel, how do you know that he's not instructed by his coach to loaf around and cherry-pick so as to produce offense/be exposed to breakaways as much as possible? Could well be strategic.

Point? Ignoring 100 goals in 3 seasons playing in the most scrutinized market there is as a 22 - 25 year-old golden boy while also being ridiculed constantly because of Burke's trade "gaffe", yet harping on him having a very low plus/minus rating, is pretty pathetic.

Actually Jason Strudwick was on the Team 1260 say exactly this about hits. He was saying that the number of hits clutterbuck gets is completely overblown. If you look at his hits at home they are ridiculous, cause the homer stats guys feed him hits. He was also saying that he could go out and hit a bunch of guys, and then see 0 hits on the stats sheet.
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#2568 oldnews

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:21 PM

Fan boy much? Two olympic players and a


So loosing Ballard, Raymond, UFA Edler, Solong Luongo and 2 low draft picks is strip mining the Canucks? And in return we get the option of keeping or trading 2 olympic (2012)players, a C prospect that is playing far better than any of our prospects in the AHL and an exptremely good D prospect.
Sorry, but being a fan of the Nucks doesn't mean you have to be a home fanboy. I would say that Mike Gillis would be delerious if he was offered this trade.


Derp.

I must have missed the 2012 Olympic hockey.

Here was Team Canada's blueline in the 2010 Olympics:
  • Scott Niedermayer, 36 (Anaheim Ducks)
  • Chris Pronger, 35 (Philadelphia Flyers)
  • Shea Weber, 24 (Nashville Predators)
  • Drew Doughty, 20 (Los Angeles Kings)
  • Duncan Keith 26 (Chicago Blackhawks)
  • Dan Boyle, 33 (San Jose Sharks)
  • Brent Seabrook, 24 (Chicago Blackhawks)
Which one of those guys is named Dion Phaneuf?
Right.

In other words the Canucks are not getting back two Olympians - and I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Phaneuf will not be making Canada's Olympic team anytime soon. Our #1 on the other hand is a far better bet.
So we send the Olympic gold goaltender their way - and a defenseman who (another limb) will be playing on Sweden's next Olympic blueline - and a couple roster players, and a couple first round picks... forget it. Noob much? Noobs tend to buy Laffs hype about their "stars".
Spare me the Edler is a UFA line - have a look at what Boston paid for the aging UFA/rental Kaberle and have a rethink of Edler's trade value - assuming he is not signed here after the lockout, in which case this deal looks downright horrible.

Luongo, Edler, Ballard, Raymond, 1st, 1st (ie Jensen and Gaunce) - not much of a price to pay at all LOL.

Edited by oldnews, 15 December 2012 - 05:42 PM.

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#2569 oldnews

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:23 PM

On hitting: it's unreliable. "Hit" means what, exactly? Hitting is also something where "severity" needs to be considered. IE, Burrows might have more total hits than Tootoo, but that's more a function of the ice-time that he's given. And who's do you think leave more of an impact? Is frequency more relevant than severity? Not reliable at all.

Shooting percentage means nothing. Go ask Kyle Wellwood what a high shooting percentage has done for him in contract negotiations.

Plus/minus tells you something, but not everything. Is everybody on Toronto a horrible defensive player, or is their team perhaps just not that good as a unit? And back to Kessel, how do you know that he's not instructed by his coach to loaf around and cherry-pick so as to produce offense/be exposed to breakaways as much as possible? Could well be strategic.

Point? Ignoring 100 goals in 3 seasons playing in the most scrutinized market there is as a 22 - 25 year-old golden boy while also being ridiculed constantly because of Burke's trade "gaffe", yet harping on him having a very low plus/minus rating, is pretty pathetic.


Thanks for the laugh - that one was priceless...
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#2570 oldnews

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:27 PM

Mason Raymond is a useful roster player. He happened to be whipping boy last year; NBD, Bieksa's been that once or twice, and almost certainly will before his high-priced new contract runs out. Next Canuck whipping boy to-be is David Booth; at least that's my prediction, anyway.

Raymond's 27 years old; consider his resume:
-Great speed
-By all accounts, a great teammate
-5 NHL seasons under his belt
-51 playoff games played, included an SCF appearance
-2 President's Trophy winning teams
-25-goal, 53-point campaign in 2009-10 as a 24 year-old

And further, for Calgary, he's an Alberta boy - Cochrane is 45 minutes out of Calgary. Some of Raymond's very best performances have come against the Flames. It would be a very reasonable gamble for them to then sign him to an extension - buying low, in effect - and hoping that he could sustain a spot on the second line, which I would call likely.

EDIT: forgot to mention the reason for Calgary being willing to trade with us: Jarome Iginla himself. Vancouver's a 1-hour plane ride from Calgary. There's been a healthy level of respect between Jarome and the Canucks (remember Linden's sendoff, in '08?). I can't picture a more perfect complement to the twins than Jarome Iginla. And if Calgary sucks, and we don't, I wouldn't be all that surprised for something like that to happen.


Bravo King. Shocking almost. Pumping a Canuck's tires - and Raymond of all people. Well done!
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#2571 D-Money

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:32 PM

Who in the league would fit with the Sedins best?

My vote is Iginla.


I vote Ilya Kovalchuk. But I'd usually keep him as a 2nd line threat, and then have them FEAST together on the PP.

And, actually, Kovalchuk could be potentially available, if the Canucks were willing to swallow his insane contract and salary (bumps up to 11+ for the next 5 years). The Devils are hurting for cash.
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#2572 oldnews

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:33 PM

Actually Jason Strudwick was on the Team 1260 say exactly this about hits. He was saying that the number of hits clutterbuck gets is completely overblown. If you look at his hits at home they are ridiculous, cause the homer stats guys feed him hits. He was also saying that he could go out and hit a bunch of guys, and then see 0 hits on the stats sheet.


That's fine, but it's a big stretch from Stamkos' 100+ to Kessel's 12 (apparently even the homer Leaf's stats guy can scarcely see him attempting to throw a 'hit'). Hits may not matter at all - if you are Nik Lidstrom - but this came out of a comparison of Stamkos to Kessel, where King suggested that Stamkos doesn't do anything but score / is the same kind of player as Kessel. Of course his 2nd best +/- relative to his Tampa team-mates is also meaningless, as is his better shooting percentage, his greater physical presence and no doubt all the other things that make him a vastly better player than Phil Kessel.

Edited by oldnews, 15 December 2012 - 05:35 PM.

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#2573 WiDeN

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:03 PM

That's fine, but it's a big stretch from Stamkos' 100+ to Kessel's 12 (apparently even the homer Leaf's stats guy can scarcely see him attempting to throw a 'hit'). Hits may not matter at all - if you are Nik Lidstrom - but this came out of a comparison of Stamkos to Kessel, where King suggested that Stamkos doesn't do anything but score / is the same kind of player as Kessel. Of course his 2nd best +/- relative to his Tampa team-mates is also meaningless, as is his better shooting percentage, his greater physical presence and no doubt all the other things that make him a vastly better player than Phil Kessel.

Yeah, Kessel is no where near Stamkos in any way. I'll agree with you there.
I was just pointing out that the hits stat is far from accurate.
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#2574 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:34 PM

On hitting: it's unreliable. "Hit" means what, exactly? Hitting is also something where "severity" needs to be considered. IE, Burrows might have more total hits than Tootoo, but that's more a function of the ice-time that he's given. And who's do you think leave more of an impact? Is frequency more relevant than severity? Not reliable at all.

Shooting percentage means nothing. Go ask Kyle Wellwood what a high shooting percentage has done for him in contract negotiations.

Plus/minus tells you something, but not everything. Is everybody on Toronto a horrible defensive player, or is their team perhaps just not that good as a unit? And back to Kessel, how do you know that he's not instructed by his coach to loaf around and cherry-pick so as to produce offense/be exposed to breakaways as much as possible? Could well be strategic.


1) Hitting is unrealiable but it still means something, even if the # isn't dead on you can still tell when guys get alot of hits, I do agree nonetheless that it is fairly unrealiable.

2) Shoot Percentage can mean nothing, but it can also mean something, if you get called up for a game or two and score on 50% of your shots then that means nothing, if you are a player with 5+ NHL seasons under your belt than it means something.

As for Wellwood, he could still be a good 3rd line center, he had a good season last year with Winnipeg.

3) Disgaree, +/- Means alot IMO, more to a defensmen than a Forward. There are times where it can be a matter of "Well look at the team he plays on" & then you can accept that he hasn't been great but it's no entirely his fault he has such a bad +/-.

But it does mean quite a bit when you are looking at players, because if you have someone like Ballard for example, who plays well but doesn't put up points, you could look at his +/- (He has a career +10 in his time with Van BTW) and see that he has been good and reliable dispite his lack of production.

I vote Ilya Kovalchuk. But I'd usually keep him as a 2nd line threat, and then have them FEAST together on the PP.

And, actually, Kovalchuk could be potentially available, if the Canucks were willing to swallow his insane contract and salary (bumps up to 11+ for the next 5 years). The Devils are hurting for cash.


I would love him but I doubt it would ever happen, like you I would put him on 2nd sometimes then use him on the PP. (Imagine Sedin's cycle game plus his clapper at the point, they could pass it around, get him wide open then feed it to him.)

I don't think they would move him, but since you think it might be possible what do you think it will take?

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 15 December 2012 - 06:36 PM.

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#2575 WiDeN

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:39 PM

I don't see NJ trading Kovy after all they went through to sign him. They'll move other guys before him.
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#2576 cripplereh

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:58 PM

Luo hasnt been traded yet???lol
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#2577 King of the ES

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 07:02 PM

Thanks for the laugh - that one was priceless...


I guess you've never seen Ilya Kovalchuk in action.

And some guy who wore #44 for your Vancouver Canucks used to also do that quite regularly.
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#2578 King of the ES

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 07:05 PM

That's fine, but it's a big stretch from Stamkos' 100+ to Kessel's 12 (apparently even the homer Leaf's stats guy can scarcely see him attempting to throw a 'hit'). Hits may not matter at all - if you are Nik Lidstrom - but this came out of a comparison of Stamkos to Kessel, where King suggested that Stamkos doesn't do anything but score / is the same kind of player as Kessel. Of course his 2nd best +/- relative to his Tampa team-mates is also meaningless, as is his better shooting percentage, his greater physical presence and no doubt all the other things that make him a vastly better player than Phil Kessel.


Please, you are reaching. Somehow I don't think that a single NHL player will have any hesitation about going into a corner with Steven Stamkos hot on his tail.

Stamkos is a better player. Yes. But he's clearly not doing much besides providing offense, given Tampa's inability to make the playoffs. And again, I'll ask if John Tavares is part of the problem in Long Island, like you claim that Phil Kessel is in Toronto. Waiting for your answer on that one.

Edited by King of the ES, 15 December 2012 - 07:07 PM.

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#2579 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 07:48 PM

Please, you are reaching. Somehow I don't think that a single NHL player will have any hesitation about going into a corner with Steven Stamkos hot on his tail.

Stamkos is a better player. Yes. But he's clearly not doing much besides providing offense, given Tampa's inability to make the playoffs. And again, I'll ask if John Tavares is part of the problem in Long Island, like you claim that Phil Kessel is in Toronto. Waiting for your answer on that one.


Tampa's inability to make the playoffs could be linked to the terrible goaltending they got and there shallow defense. Both areas they addressed, I agree with your point on JT and I don't think Kessel is the main problem, but Stamkos isn't comparable to Kessel at all, he's a much better defensive player than Kessel.
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#2580 oldnews

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 09:39 PM

I guess you've never seen Ilya Kovalchuk in action.

And some guy who wore #44 for your Vancouver Canucks used to also do that quite regularly.


Yeah precisely - as much as I loved Bertuzzi, he was an incredibly frustrating player. He camped at the blueline as you say, waiting for his team-mates to generate the breakout - the problem being that towards the end of the WCE his linemates were more and more getting pinned in their own end of the ice. Naslund was not a Selke candidate by any stretch of the imagination, and Morrison, as good as he was defensively, was out-manned and often undersized down low behind his own net. Other teams watched each other effectively forecheck that line very aggressively and the result was that there came a point where they were "figured out". Bertuzzi was -17 his last season in Vancouver - but that's a meaningless stat - (the only other player close was Naslund at -19).
That was when the NHL was much more of a run and gun game, with a lot of porous defense being played - in today's NHL that simply does not cut it - you can't afford to have a floating, cherry picking no-show in his own end of the ice - teams make you pay, and evidently, they consistently make Kessel, and whoever is unfortunate enough to be on the ice with him, pay.

Edited by oldnews, 15 December 2012 - 09:53 PM.

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