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Multiple Warning Signs Surrounding Zack Kassian


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#301 nuck nit

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:47 PM

You forgot several things about watching Raymonds game. That's the problem with having a discussion with you. I fully admit that much of the evidence if not all of it is absolutely correct. The problem is it's almost never complete.


And you would be the all perfect one.
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#302 WolfxHaley

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:47 PM

More of the CDC bully show.

That's slightly hypocritical...but I shouldn't expect any less.
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#303 nuck nit

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:50 PM

Hey man you never answered my question about what Gillis could have offered Shultz that the Oilers couldn't.

You must have just missed it.

You should probably watch the personally attacks on Goku as well. Those warnings add up don't you know.


My apologies I usually have you on ignore.
I do not mind being called cute by a cartoon avatar boy,I just find it unsettling in some primitive,gut instinctual way.
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#304 FullMetalOilDrum

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:54 PM

Wow. I think I just walked into troll town. Heres my personal thoughts on Kassian. I think Kassian will be a fine player. Probably a 20-25 goal scorer that can play physical as long as he can develop a little more consistency. What everyone is witnessing now doesn't mean a lot. I'm guessing that Once the NHL becomes unlocked everyone will get an idea what type of player he will become.
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Respect my favorite team, and I will respect yours.

#305 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:56 PM

And you would be the all perfect one.

Never said that at all. Just pointing out the flaw that happens frequently in your argument. oops...his argument.
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#306 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:57 PM

My apologies I usually have you on ignore.
I do not mind being called cute by a cartoon avatar boy,I just find it unsettling in some primitive,gut instinctual way.


Yeah we all frequently put people on and off ignore.

Is the question just a lost cause at this point?
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#307 WolfxHaley

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:57 PM

My apologies I usually have you on ignore.
I do not mind being called cute by a cartoon avatar boy,I just find it unsettling in some primitive,gut instinctual way.

:rolleyes: Go back to the Garden pal.
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#308 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:58 PM

More of the CDC bully show.

it's like raiiiiin...on your wedding day...
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#309 The Creature Blue Lagoon

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:08 AM

Too small of a sample size to draw inferences from...
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#310 nuck nit

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:22 AM

:rolleyes: Go back to the Garden pal.

And you would be there waiting,I suppose. :frantic:
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#311 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:17 AM

I think the Canucks might want to consider just that.
How much has the .org spent on scouting since Gills took over in 2008?
How many Gillis draft picks will suit up and play if there is a season?
The question should be: How much can we save by ditching the scouting staff and just using Google?
Canucks haven’t fared well at draft under GM Mike Gillis

Still, given the effort and resources expended — under Gillis, the amateur scouting department overseen by Thomas Gradin and Ron Delorme became the largest in the NHL — the Canucks should have more elite prospects than they do.
http://sports.nation...gm-mike-gillis/


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I don't know how you can expect us to have elite prospects when we are drafting 25-30 every year, and when we have traded some early picks to build on our current success.

We spend all that money on development so when we draft players we want to make sure they can become as good as possible, and honestly I don't think MG has done too bad.

Unfortunately money cant buy us better draft positions, or else I'm sure we would have a few more top prospects.

:lol: nuck nitwit set himself up for that perfectly ::D


:lol: Just caught that.

Wow. I think I just walked into troll town. Heres my personal thoughts on Kassian. I think Kassian will be a fine player. Probably a 20-25 goal scorer that can play physical as long as he can develop a little more consistency. What everyone is witnessing now doesn't mean a lot. I'm guessing that Once the NHL becomes unlocked everyone will get an idea what type of player he will become.


Yeah it's something the regular posters have gotten used to.

And you would be there waiting,I suppose. :frantic:


.....What is that even supposed to mean??
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#312 CookieCrumbs

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:28 AM

OOOOOOO Jason - welcome to Vancouver....
Uh, what's that, oh you are from Vancouver, my mistake.
Yeah, I guess, uh, who am I to welcome you to your own hometown?
And, uh, I live in Chicago. Derp. Welcome to uh, geez, forget it.


He means welcome to the Canucks genius.
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#313 Baggins

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:35 AM

Yeah we all frequently put people on and off ignore.

Is the question just a lost cause at this point?


Good luck. Evasion is their greatest debating skill. All smoke and mirrors.
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#314 Baggins

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:25 AM

"The league", or maybe 1 or 2 bottom-feeders, like the Islanders and/or the Blue Jackets, perhaps? Let's not start touting "hometown discount" when discussing a guy who was just given a 6-year deal from us while being tied for the highest-paid defenceman on the club.

Pressure's on, Jason. Welcome to Vancouver.


It doesn't matter what others on the team are making when their deals were signed in previous years with a lower salary cap. Market value changes as the cap changes. If Garrison had higher offers he passed on then he did indeed sign here at a discount.
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#315 King of the ES

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:01 AM

So King, what do you say about this?


Did I ever say that stats were the only thing that matters? No, and of course that's not true.

The indisputable fact is that at the 30-game mark of the AHL season, Kassian has far less goals, and less points, than what he had last season. That's all I'm bringing up. You can make any excuse you want, the fact of the matter is that it's not encouraging. If he instead was one of the AHL leaders in either/both of the categories, this place would be endlessly abuzz, which you cannot deny.

Here's my problem with a lot of the sentiment around here:
  • Zack Kassian: big year-over-year decline in goals, points, and shots. "Who cares? Not concerned, he's gonna be great. Stop trolling".
  • Anton Rodin: 1 goal in 22 games. "Who cares? Not concerned, he's gonna be great. Stop trolling".
  • Kevin Connauton: big decline in virtually every conceivable category, year-over-year. "Who cares? Not concerned, he's gonna be great. Stop trolling".
  • Justin Schultz: 17 goals, 45 points in 32 games: "The AHL sucks anyway, those stats are not impressive and they don't mean anything. Just look at M.A. Gragnani in the AHL".
See the problem?

Edited by King of the ES, 04 January 2013 - 06:06 AM.

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#316 nuck nit

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:10 AM

That's taking b!tching and moaning to a new level. Even for the King of the Extremely Stupid.


That is the quality content that we have become accustomed to.
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#317 Gollumpus

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:24 AM

Did I ever say that stats were the only thing that matters? No, and of course that's not true.

The indisputable fact is that at the 30-game mark of the AHL season, Kassian has far less goals, and less points, than what he had last season. That's all I'm bringing up. You can make any excuse you want, the fact of the matter is that it's not encouraging. If he instead was one of the AHL leaders in either/both of the categories, this place would be endlessly abuzz, which you cannot deny.

Here's my problem with a lot of the sentiment around here:

  • Zack Kassian: big year-over-year decline in goals, points, and shots. "Who cares? Not concerned, he's gonna be great. Stop trolling".
  • Anton Rodin: 1 goal in 22 games. "Who cares? Not concerned, he's gonna be great. Stop trolling".
  • Kevin Connauton: big decline in virtually every conceivable category, year-over-year. "Who cares? Not concerned, he's gonna be great. Stop trolling".
  • Justin Schultz: 17 goals, 45 points in 32 games: "The AHL sucks anyway, those stats are not impressive and they don't mean anything. Just look at M.A. Gragnani in the AHL".
See the problem?


Yes, I do.

I see that you keep getting other players muddled up in a discussion about Zack Kassian.

If anything contrary to your opinion is only an "excuse" then what excuses do you have which explain why Kassian has this drop in production? Something more than, "perhaps he's not as good as Gillis thought he was", would be useful.


regards,
G.
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Following the Canucks since before Don Cherry played here.

#318 bd71

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:05 AM

This thread is a mess but it points to the problem the Canucks have. The prospect pool isn't great. There are some bright lights but for the most part they do have one of the weakest prospect pools in the league. That's pretty indisputable and most hockey experts would agree. Getting into a loop comparing guys like Schroeder and Kassian to other players lighting up the AHL that have had NHL experience and success makes little sense.

I think we all want our prospects to be high end but the reality is that the Canucks prospects closest to the NHL are not elite. I'm sure there are players in the system that will excel but I don't think that anyone can argue there are many sure things. We can be as hopeful as we want and argue stats all we want but it doesn't make it any less true. Of course we all want them to be great but it hasn't been a great year thus far. It's been frustrating to say the least watching some of these guys develop.

On the other hand Gillis has had some successes and I think it will get better. Whatever happens with Frank Corrado, I think that is an amazing pick for that late in the draft. He may not make it but he has come a long way so good on Gillis for that choice. Guance is getting better as of late after a poor start and I think he can potentially be a player as well. I'm not nearly as sold on Jensen as a lot are. I've seen him play many times and he just takes way too much time off. If that changes then look out but in my experience that isn't something that a player can often alter.
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#319 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:51 AM

Did I ever say that stats were the only thing that matters? No, and of course that's not true.

The indisputable fact is that at the 30-game mark of the AHL season, Kassian has far less goals, and less points, than what he had last season. That's all I'm bringing up. You can make any excuse you want, the fact of the matter is that it's not encouraging. If he instead was one of the AHL leaders in either/both of the categories, this place would be endlessly abuzz, which you cannot deny.

Here's my problem with a lot of the sentiment around here:

  • Zack Kassian: big year-over-year decline in goals, points, and shots. "Who cares? Not concerned, he's gonna be great. Stop trolling".
  • Anton Rodin: 1 goal in 22 games. "Who cares? Not concerned, he's gonna be great. Stop trolling".
  • Kevin Connauton: big decline in virtually every conceivable category, year-over-year. "Who cares? Not concerned, he's gonna be great. Stop trolling".
  • Justin Schultz: 17 goals, 45 points in 32 games: "The AHL sucks anyway, those stats are not impressive and they don't mean anything. Just look at M.A. Gragnani in the AHL".
See the problem?


:picard: :picard: :picard: :picard: God King this is getting rediculous, I'm lay gunna it all on the table and explain it for you..


Your taking Canuck Fan cliches and applying them to this when that isn't the case.

Everyone has "admitted" if you will that what Schultz is doing is unbelievable, that still doesn't mean that he will be able to do it at the NHL level, or that it was a "Mistake" he chose Edmonton instead of coming here, or that Garrison wasn't a better signing for us (Which he was)

The reason we aren't worried about Kassian is because he has been playing well, if he was struggling and had lowsy stats then by all means bring it up, I would be concerned too, but everyone can see (Cause they watch the Wolves games) He is playing fine, being physical, making plays, doing good things. That doesn't always result in points, sometimes you get stimeid. And it has also been noted this team is playing terrible and the coaching as been terrible, and I also think it is worht noting he has had 2 or 3 goals wavied off for BS reasons. So to reiterate on Kass, he is doing good things, just not being rewarded yet, everyone can see he is playing fine despite him not producing to the "Dominant" level everyone would love to see. He is still 2nd on the team in scoring and is consistently one of there best players, and that alone proves the team has struggled, he has played well and he stats aren't that bad.

Rodin: I love how you do this, you say "1 goal in 18 games, 1 goal in 22 games" yet you discredit that he actually has 8 Points, playing on the third line and less, playing every 2nd game. You twist the facts in your favour. Now the thing you have to understand about him is no one is expecting him to light it up, no one is really expecting much, I don't know why you harp on it no one is surprised his production is like this. NO ONE. For the record I think he has all the tools in his game, he just has to continue to develop, get stronger, and put it all together, but that doesn't excuse the fact we all hoped for more, but it takes players longer to adjust and Anton has always been sort of a project. No one really expected more, you need to be patient with him.

Connaution: If you read the PGT's everyone agrees he has been not as good as last year, the PP has been brutal (Which affects him but can't be pinned on him, alot has to do with coaching) And he has been on a pair with a terrible defensmen (Joslin) rather than with Tanev like he should be, that's who he plays best with, another example of great coaching from "The Genius" as I call him. The bottom line here is everyone can identify that he hasn't been as good, for one reason or another with one circumstance or another to consider he hasn't been as good, no one is arguing that.


Now the thing you have to realize before you go off on our prospect and whatever. Is:

1. The circumstances.

2. How the overall team is doing

3. What fans realisticlly expect of them

4. What fans hope they will be

5. How long fans expect them to take

6. And to look futher into there play before making incorrect judgments based on reading stats sheets, and this goes for everything not just prospects (This also ties in with the 1st one just a bit)


Now I hope you read read that atleast 10 times before you respond because if you come back with a stat related argument without actually knowing what is going on, and u come back harping on prospects that no one expected to be much further ahead than they already are, then that will be the #1 sign that you are simply Trolling (As if it isn't obvious already like duh) And honestly my post isn't about arguing about prospects anyways so I don't know why you would but you never fail to amazing me so I am bracing myself for the worst.

Now seriously come on King, please just realize these things before you post and unfairly judge with no clue of what is even going on in the first place.

Above all else just take everything I said into heavy consideration before you reply please.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 04 January 2013 - 07:54 AM.

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#320 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:37 AM

That is the quality content that we have become accustomed to.

That is the quality content that we have become accustomed to.
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#321 disisdayear

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:45 PM

I didn't exclusively use "the pathetic +/-" statistics. Statistics need to be looked-at in tandem. Great, CORSI. Who cares? Goals are down, points are down, shots are down, PIM are up, all transparent and worthy of discussion as to what's going wrong.


Most of the time, I think King brings up points that are valid and stimulates good (passionate and polarizing) discussion, which I had always thought these discussion forums were intended for. However, I have to say, with this last post I would have to disagree with dismissing the Corsi ratings. If one is to make assessments using stats as the leading determinant on the value or development of players, one needs to analyze as many statistical variables as possible. Otherwise, one is making a judgment based on cursory analysis, which at the end of the day is incomplete.

Stats are important...look at how stats were used as ONE component by Epstein to build the Bosox roster into World Series champs (and yes, it can be argued that baseball does not equal hockey) and the value they were portrayed to have in "Moneyball". But, to say that this is the only tool to evaluate the development of a player is myopic and leads to false conclusions. Granted, sports is about the here and now, so I can understand the "concerns" expressed by King. I don't share these concerns, which seems to be the general consensus here on the board...the future for Kassian is still in front of him, so there's still reason for all of us to be patient and wait for him to develop into the power forward that we expect him to be.
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#322 The Kassassin Train

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:35 PM

I didn't exclusively use "the pathetic +/-" statistics. Statistics need to be looked-at in tandem. Great, CORSI. Who cares? Goals are down, points are down, shots are down, PIM are up, all transparent and worthy of discussion as to what's going wrong.


Great Corsi?! Oh I get it too dumb to understand them. Shots area down yet he leads the team what a joke.
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The key difference is that Sopel can fill in for Seabrook and Campbell just fine. Bieksa, he is garbage so in that sense he is like the worst defenseman in the league.


When Cody (Hodgson) gets older, he might be better than Datsyuk.


Let's not push this guy (Kassian). He's still immature, and if he fails on the 2nd line it's because he isn't ready. Some guys really need years to develop, it's how well and how fast players adapt to the game. In my opinion, I'd rather have Horvat getting 2nd line minutes. He will start off on the 3rd line next season but I see him making the transition, being a great compliment to whoever plays his wings.

At this point, I don't see Kassian fitting in to any role other than a 3rd. If players like Kassian start getting 2nd line minutes then we just stay inconsistent as a team.


The idiocy on CDC....

#323 The Kassassin Train

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:41 PM

Nobody disproved any of my "claims" - actually, real-life statistics - on Kassian. There's nothing to disprove, they were factual and verifiable.

I think this is a bit above your level of reading comprehension.


You're so cute. Corsi stats are a far more accurate way of judging a player compared to your GP, Goals, PIM and assists to see the effectiveness of a player. Obviously too dumb to figure it out and I am extremely shocked you even were able to make it past a GED. Let alone a university would even consider accepting you.

Hahahaha what am I arguing and you're the one who thinks I have a reading comprehension problem I'm arguing that when you don't have a concrete argument, you change the subject. You just did again by commenting on my 'reading comprehension' level. Good try ace and I'm glad your vocabulary consists of big words. Ya see how easy it is to make yourself sound bright?

Yawn. When you can figure out Corsi stats then come talk to me. Of course ya won't and you can play with your baby stats just like the majority of CDC.

Edited by The Kassassin Train, 04 January 2013 - 01:43 PM.

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The key difference is that Sopel can fill in for Seabrook and Campbell just fine. Bieksa, he is garbage so in that sense he is like the worst defenseman in the league.


When Cody (Hodgson) gets older, he might be better than Datsyuk.


Let's not push this guy (Kassian). He's still immature, and if he fails on the 2nd line it's because he isn't ready. Some guys really need years to develop, it's how well and how fast players adapt to the game. In my opinion, I'd rather have Horvat getting 2nd line minutes. He will start off on the 3rd line next season but I see him making the transition, being a great compliment to whoever plays his wings.

At this point, I don't see Kassian fitting in to any role other than a 3rd. If players like Kassian start getting 2nd line minutes then we just stay inconsistent as a team.


The idiocy on CDC....

#324 Jägermeister

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:23 PM

  • Anton Rodin: 1 goal in 22 games. "Who cares? Not concerned, he's gonna be great. Stop trolling".


Rodin isn't very good. He clearly is having no luck adjusting to the North American game.
Showed a lot of promise early on, but I'd be surprised to see him ever crack our roster.

Edited by Jägermeister, 04 January 2013 - 02:24 PM.

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#325 SamJamIam

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:24 PM

Great Corsi?! Oh I get it too dumb to understand them. Shots area down yet he leads the team what a joke.


I think we just need to reply with "Corsi" every time he replies until he actually answers directly. Clearly he's just a dumb troll.
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#326 King of the ES

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:21 PM

If anything contrary to your opinion is only an "excuse" then what excuses do you have which explain why Kassian has this drop in production? Something more than, "perhaps he's not as good as Gillis thought he was", would be useful.


Excuses don't explain, and explanations don't excuse, so I won't offer any.

The fact of the matter is that his production has dropped, which is the point of this thread. It's discussion-worthy. You're aware that we gave up arguably the best prospect that we've had since Trevor Linden for him, right?
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#327 Jägermeister

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:24 PM

Excuses don't explain, and explanations don't excuse, so I won't offer any.

The fact of the matter is that his production has dropped, which is the point of this thread. It's discussion-worthy. You're aware that we gave up arguably the best prospect that we've had since Trevor Linden for him, right?


The Sedins and Kesler would beg to differ :lol:
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#328 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:30 PM

You're aware that we gave up arguably the best prospect that we've had since Trevor Linden for him, right?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


:picard: I guess you must have missed 20 years of us drafting and acquiring prospects in between 88' and 08'
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#329 King of the ES

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:30 PM

Everyone has "admitted" if you will that what Schultz is doing is unbelievable, that still doesn't mean that he will be able to do it at the NHL level, or that it was a "Mistake" he chose Edmonton instead of coming here, or that Garrison wasn't a better signing for us (Which he was)


Wow, so you'd rather have Jason Garrison for 6 years at $4.6M per than Justin Schultz on an ELC.

Incredible.

The reason we aren't worried about Kassian is because he has been playing well, if he was struggling and had lowsy stats then by all means bring it up, I would be concerned too, but everyone can see (Cause they watch the Wolves games) He is playing fine, being physical, making plays, doing good things.


If that's the case, then why was he benched?

Rodin: I love how you do this, you say "1 goal in 18 games, 1 goal in 22 games" yet you discredit that he actually has 8 Points, playing on the third line and less, playing every 2nd game. You twist the facts in your favour. Now the thing you have to understand about him is no one is expecting him to light it up, no one is really expecting much, I don't know why you harp on it no one is surprised his production is like this. NO ONE. For the record I think he has all the tools in his game, he just has to continue to develop, get stronger, and put it all together, but that doesn't excuse the fact we all hoped for more, but it takes players longer to adjust and Anton has always been sort of a project. No one really expected more, you need to be patient with him.


No one really expected more? He was a 2nd round pick! Taken ahead of guys like Tatar, McNabb, Craig Smith, Horak, etc. To say that nobody is "surprised" by this is just ridiculous. I'll repeat - 1 goal in 22 games. That's pretty hard to do as a stay-at-home defenceman, let alone as a guy who's there exclusively to provide offense.

As for the rest of your post, you're just trying to ignore the fact (to feel better about your team's prospects - denial) that any time a prospect shows regressive numbers, it is not a good thing. I will again point out the fact that if Kassian, or Rodin, or anybody else, was leading the AHL in points, this place would be brimming with hype. Stats are conveniently meaningless when, and only when, they go in the opposite direction of the hometown bias.
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#330 King of the ES

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:42 PM

The Sedins and Kesler would beg to differ :lol:


Nope, don't think so. You're probably too young to remember these things; here's a little history lesson.

Sedin's were projected as "solid second-liners" from the day that they were drafted. They were largely ineffective in their first few years in the league. Highlights here and there, but extremely slow, weak, and basically just shells of what they've turned in to since 2009. The "solid second-liner" moniker really didn't leave them until the '08-'09 season, when they really started to assume a leadership role with this team and assert themselves as elite players - and, for the first time in their careers, they actually performed pretty well in the playoffs. To be honest, one of Mike Gillis' most underrated moves as our GM was extending the Sedin's back in 2009; there were a lot of people that wanted the rebuild to commence at that point, as the Sedin's were not thought-of as top-level, elite players. And I think Gillis really thought hard about the direction that he wanted to go in, and it was close (or else Burke wouldn't have flown out to Ornskoldsvik). Then 2009-10 came, and the rest is history.

Kesler was drafted as a 3rd line grinding checker. Nobody expected him to score 40 goals - or anything even close, really. Like the Sedin's, Kesler didn't show much promise in his early years, and then pretty much just exploded in 2008, with Burrows.

Both of these guys have turned out to be far, far better than anybody expected them to be. Which is why it's different than Cody.

Cody was the golden boy, the polite, well-mannered Canadian kid that won every coach's choice award in the OHL, went on to be the CHL player of the year, was the Hockey News' top prospect, was arguably the best player on Canada's WJC run, etc. People expect greatness out of Cody, which was not the case with anyone that we've drafted since Trevor Linden.
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