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Multiple Warning Signs Surrounding Zack Kassian


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#391 King of the ES

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:13 PM

There could have been any number of reasons Waddell chose Stefan but I would bet not one of them was that he did not highly covet the Sedins.


It's pretty simple; he may have highly coveted the Sedin's, but he coveted Stefan even higher.
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#392 King of the ES

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:14 PM

And when Kassian starts producing in the NHL this year, I can't wait to see what King has to say. Go on King reply with another boring rebuttal.


Shouldn't he start producing in the AHL, first?
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#393 Baggins

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:50 PM

Don Waddell is also the guy who drafted Patrik Stefan over either Sedin, so it's pretty obvious what he really felt. His vague and meaningless quote could be applied to anyone drafted in the 1st round. I guess except for the "marketing ploy" part (LOL), which is how a lot of people in Vancouver felt about the transaction.

Stefan and Brendl were the two most hyped prospects of that draft. The Sedin's were not. Good second-line players were their projection.


Waddell NOT taking a Sedin was part of the deal with Burke which gave Atlanta the first overall pick. Der. Franchise players was the prediction.
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#394 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:55 PM

It's pretty simple; he may have highly coveted the Sedin's, but he coveted Stefan even higher.

Stefan was coveted by most at the time. Wasn't he projected to go first on most lists? IIRC he stayed first and Brendl dropped as time went on.
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#395 eretz canucks

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:02 PM

I've seen him play live for nucks and wolves. Some days he looks dominant and has elite skill, other days he looks disinterested.I would sign him long term to low money, because in 5 years or so he could be a real force. trading him or letting him walk would be a mistake, you have to give players time to develop-look at the sedins and Burrows, didn't come into their own until around 26/27
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#396 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:40 PM

Bottom line is that Waddell had the chance to take either Sedin. He chose Patrik Stefan instead. The big decision for Waddell at the time was whether he was going to take Stefan or Brendl. A lot of people felt that NYR were the big winners of the whole ordeal because they got Brendl at the #4 spot, who many felt had 1st overall talent (73 goals in 68 games in the WHL that year).

Second-line is what most thought the Sedin's were. And those expectations really didn't change until 2009. A lot of short-term memories on this site, wow.

It's pretty simple; he may have highly coveted the Sedin's, but he coveted Stefan even higher.


It was part of the deal that Wandell wouldn't take a Sedin, and that they would get to pick 1st and take Stefan for there young franchise.
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#397 TimberWolf

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:57 PM

It's pretty simple; he may have highly coveted the Sedin's, but he coveted Stefan even higher.


Having a bit of trouble wading through the logical quicksand, but if the Sedins are not franchise players because they were drafted 2nd and 3rd overall what does that make Coho who was left till 10th overall? Does this logic means he wasn't very coveted by other GMs and left exposed till later?

(Of course you may point out the Kassian was not drafted till 13th in his year, but that doesn't evade that you believe that if you were not drafted first overall then you are second and third line career players and not franchise calibre like Cody cannot be)

Edited by TimberWolf, 05 January 2013 - 05:59 PM.

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I was saying Lu-Urns...

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#398 TheEhrhoffEffect

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 06:11 PM

The only warning sign that Kassian has is his inconsistency. That is something you can't teach and it will hurt him in the NHL. What a genius trade by the Sabres though. They already had a better, harder-working version of Kassian in Marcus Foligno so they were willing to deal him.
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#399 oldnews

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 07:13 PM

The only warning sign that Kassian has is his inconsistency. That is something you can't teach and it will hurt him in the NHL. What a genius trade by the Sabres though. They already had a better, harder-working version of Kassian in Marcus Foligno so they were willing to deal him.


The logic fails. We have a young power forward left wing - therefore we trade our other young power forward - a right wing. God forbid you have a club with two power forwards.

The Sabres were already small enough up front - and then they went out and got smaller.

And if you think Hodgson is the poster boy for consistency you haven't been paying attention.

Regehr was so happy with the deal that he went public with the fact that he was still looking for the right centerman after the deal. He then went out and cut a deal for one, and drafted two more in the first round.
Genius deal indeed.

The Canucks have another young center anyway - a better two way player - a1st round pick who has fared better for the Canucks AHL club than Hodgson did. Genius trade.

Edited by oldnews, 05 January 2013 - 07:37 PM.

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#400 oldnews

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 07:15 PM

Shouldn't he start producing in the AHL, first?


Hodgson stats for the Moose were entirely unimpressive - worse than Schroeder's, and Kassian's small sample that raises so much concern with you is right in line with what Hodgson did.
Should the Canucks have waited for Hodgson to actually produce in the AHL?
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#401 oldnews

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 07:28 PM

This actually is quite true. Lindros was the first player to have the moniker "The Next One" attached to him. The fact that he was so heralded allowed his often questionable choices: refusing to play for 2 teams that drafted him (the Greyhounds and Nordiques).


My point wasn't the Lindros wasn't heralded - we was so heralded that we was traded for one of the most ridiculous overpayments in NHL history - it was that he was nothing at all like Gretzky.
And King might take note - Lindros was refusing to play for Quebec - the whole world knew that Quebec had to trade him - and yet look at the return.
They received in the trade the rights to eventual Hart Trophy winner Peter Forsberg, as well as Ron Hextall, Chris Simon, Mike Ricci, Kerry Huffman, Steve Duchesne, a 1st round selection in 1993, a 1st round selection in 1994, and $15,000,000 cash.

Anyway - only King could argue that the Sedins weren't heralded - were projected support and second line players. About as dumb of an argument as I've heard out of him - and he's put up a few for sure.
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#402 oldnews

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 07:33 PM

Yep. Lindros was amazing. NHL Network did a pretty good documentary on him that I would encourage all to watch. He was basically so good, so much better than everyone else at both the OHL and the NHL drafts, that he could afford to dictate the terms of his career.

NHLPA owe a great deal of thanks to Lindros, who knew how valuable he was to a team and refused to be compensated any less than what he felt was fair.


The problem for Lindros was that by refusing to play for Quebec, he landed himself in Philly, where he had to deal with Bobby Clarke.
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#403 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 07:36 PM

The logic fails. We have a young power forward left wing - therefore we trade our other young power forward - a right wing. God forbid you have a club with two who power forwards.

The Sabres were already small enough up front - and then they went out and go smaller.

And if you think Hodgson is the poster boy for consistency you haven't been paying attention.

Regehr was so happy with the deal that he went public with the fact that he was still looking for the right centerman after the deal. He then went out and cut a deal for one, and drafted two more in the first round.
Genius deal indeed.

The Canucks have another young center anyway - a better two way player - a1st round pick who has fared better for the Canucks AHL club than Hodgson did. Genius trade.


I actually agree with the 100%

The Sabres were already an undersized group up front, so they trade one of there bigger up and coming players for a smaller center who is futher ahead in his development but doesn't address there issue of still being undersized upfront, then they go out and dish off Roy hoping Ennis and Hodgson will be able to carry there hopes for the future when I doubt either will be 1st line centers. You can tell they kind of backtracked off that at the draft though as they took Grigorenko then traded up to get Girgensons.

When the deal was first announced it looked bad for us but the more time goes by it just keeps looking better and better IMO.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 05 January 2013 - 07:38 PM.

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#404 Nino

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 08:08 PM

The only warning sign that Kassian has is his inconsistency. That is something you can't teach and it will hurt him in the NHL. What a genius trade by the Sabres though. They already had a better, harder-working version of Kassian in Marcus Foligno so they were willing to deal him.


Agree
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#405 TheEhrhoffEffect

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 08:18 PM

The logic fails. We have a young power forward left wing - therefore we trade our other young power forward - a right wing. God forbid you have a club with two power forwards.

The Sabres were already small enough up front - and then they went out and got smaller.

And if you think Hodgson is the poster boy for consistency you haven't been paying attention.

Regehr was so happy with the deal that he went public with the fact that he was still looking for the right centerman after the deal. He then went out and cut a deal for one, and drafted two more in the first round.
Genius deal indeed.

The Canucks have another young center anyway - a better two way player - a1st round pick who has fared better for the Canucks AHL club than Hodgson did. Genius trade.


The Sabres needed a talented centre. They already had a great power forward in Foligno so trading Kassian wasn't a problem. That's what i'm saying.

The Sabres aren't the biggest team in the league, but they've already addressed that issue in a few ways. It was a phenomenal trade by them.

Buffalo still needs a number 1 centre, and that's apparent. Hodgson was never expected to immediately become the top player on the team. He could definitely be one day, but that is still a few years away. With Hodgson and Grigorenko coming up through the system, all Buffalo needs is a short-term solution at centre.

Hodgson had 30 pts in 53 games after coming back from an injury plagued year. Schroeder had 28 pts in 61 games after playing two full years in college. If Schroeder played better than Hodgson at the AHL level, you would think that he would have played in at least 1 NHL game by now.
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#406 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:23 PM

The Sabres needed a talented centre. They already had a great power forward in Foligno so trading Kassian wasn't a problem. That's what i'm saying.

The Sabres aren't the biggest team in the league, but they've already addressed that issue in a few ways. It was a phenomenal trade by them.

Buffalo still needs a number 1 centre, and that's apparent. Hodgson was never expected to immediately become the top player on the team. He could definitely be one day, but that is still a few years away. With Hodgson and Grigorenko coming up through the system, all Buffalo needs is a short-term solution at centre.

Hodgson had 30 pts in 53 games after coming back from an injury plagued year. Schroeder had 28 pts in 61 games after playing two full years in college. If Schroeder played better than Hodgson at the AHL level, you would think that he would have played in at least 1 NHL game by now.


I don't see it as a phenomenal deal by them, they did need a center but they already had Ennis and Gerbe both capable of playing centers, both fellow small centers. There forward group is very small, that has to be a concern moving forward, especially if they expect Cody to pick up the 1st line duties right away. That would be better served in Ennis's hands IMO, then later in Grigorenko's once he establishes himself, I don't see Cody as the 1st center.

So overall for needs it worked for both sides, I think at the end of the day the longer this drags on it's not nearly as bad from our side as some still think, I actually think it was a good deal for both sides. You could say it is a smart move since they have Foligno but Foligno doesn't have Kassian's upside, and then on the flip side you could say it is okay for us to since we have Schroeder.

and Schroeder did have 44 Points last year in 72 Games. And currently has 19 Points in 30 games, and our team is actually alot worse this year than previous years, so I'm not that worried about him.

Basiclly I just don't think the deal is as bad for us as you said, Kassian in his prime will bring alot more to this team than Cody would in his prime, that's what MG meant when he said "Kassian will be a more influential player for us moving forward" and I agree with it.
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#407 SamJamIam

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:34 AM

The Sabres needed a talented centre. They already had a great power forward in Foligno so trading Kassian wasn't a problem. That's what i'm saying.

The Sabres aren't the biggest team in the league, but they've already addressed that issue in a few ways. It was a phenomenal trade by them.

Buffalo still needs a number 1 centre, and that's apparent. Hodgson was never expected to immediately become the top player on the team. He could definitely be one day, but that is still a few years away. With Hodgson and Grigorenko coming up through the system, all Buffalo needs is a short-term solution at centre.

Hodgson had 30 pts in 53 games after coming back from an injury plagued year. Schroeder had 28 pts in 61 games after playing two full years in college. If Schroeder played better than Hodgson at the AHL level, you would think that he would have played in at least 1 NHL game by now.


Schroeder will get his chance. He's come to a point in his game where he needs some NHL ice time to improve. He's 22 so he's on a similar time frame to Tanev which is the pace the Canucks hope for. We'll see what the post-lockout team looks like and if there's a spot, I expect he'll be able to earn it. Now that Ebbett is 30, I think they know what to expect from him and will favour giving Schroeder a sniff at the NHL unless Weise comes back from the Dutch league with a mission in mind.
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#408 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 01:53 AM

Shouldn't he start producing in the AHL, first?


He does have 6 Points in his last 4 Games (Since the Christmas Break)

But I guess that's not "producing" in your eyes right? What do you expect him to have 60 Points in that time? 10 Points a game?
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#409 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 01:55 AM

Weise comes back from the Dutch league with a mission in mind.


Oh he will have a mission in mind....

(Sedin - Sedin - Weise ............ :bigblush: )

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 06 January 2013 - 01:55 AM.

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#410 TheEhrhoffEffect

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 01:59 AM

I don't see it as a phenomenal deal by them, they did need a center but they already had Ennis and Gerbe both capable of playing centers, both fellow small centers. There forward group is very small, that has to be a concern moving forward, especially if they expect Cody to pick up the 1st line duties right away. That would be better served in Ennis's hands IMO, then later in Grigorenko's once he establishes himself, I don't see Cody as the 1st center.

So overall for needs it worked for both sides, I think at the end of the day the longer this drags on it's not nearly as bad from our side as some still think, I actually think it was a good deal for both sides. You could say it is a smart move since they have Foligno but Foligno doesn't have Kassian's upside, and then on the flip side you could say it is okay for us to since we have Schroeder.

and Schroeder did have 44 Points last year in 72 Games. And currently has 19 Points in 30 games, and our team is actually alot worse this year than previous years, so I'm not that worried about him.

Basiclly I just don't think the deal is as bad for us as you said, Kassian in his prime will bring alot more to this team than Cody would in his prime, that's what MG meant when he said "Kassian will be a more influential player for us moving forward" and I agree with it.


Gerbe doesn't play centre. Only true top six centre was Ennis, and he played wing up until after the trade deadline last year. The forward group isn't as small as it was last year. Roy is gone, and Steve Ott is a huge addition to the team. Hodgson definitely has first line potential and I think he'll excel in that role in a few years.

Kassian has more talent, but his inconsistency will cost him. You can notice Foligno out there every single game that he plays in. With Kassian, you don't. Plus, Foligno played great on the Sabres after the deadline last year.

I didn't say the trade was bad for Vancouver though, but it benefited the Sabres more. If the Canucks were going to make the trade, they should have waited until the offseason.

Edited by TheEhrhoffEffect, 06 January 2013 - 02:01 AM.

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#411 Samuel Påhlsson

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:12 AM

Come back in about 4-5 years then you can pass judgement. I don't expect Kassian or Hodgson to be fully developed until they're at least 25.
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#412 Pears

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:25 AM

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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

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#413 AK_19

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:33 AM

I don't understand why people are ripping on King of the ES so hard. I admit he's made some dumb arguments in the past but this one was at least legit, open-ended and at least earned a response better than " he's a troll har harr". The numbers do look bad an do require some investigation as to why it is that way. As some have mentioned, the team as a whole has unilaterally dropped in their point production including 4-5 players that are typically PPGers. If it is a problem across the board then it does seem like a systems/coaching problem.
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#414 Baggins

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:35 AM

If the Canucks were going to make the trade, they should have waited until the offseason.


Except, as I've already pointed out a few times, it was Buffalo shopping Kassian for a young center at the dealine. They were looking for an NHL ready center to push for the playoffs. Their need was immediate and they weren't going to wait until summer. Sometimes you have to make a trade when what you are looking for becomes available.
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#415 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:49 AM

Gerbe doesn't play centre. Only true top six centre was Ennis, and he played wing up until after the trade deadline last year. The forward group isn't as small as it was last year. Roy is gone, and Steve Ott is a huge addition to the team. Hodgson definitely has first line potential and I think he'll excel in that role in a few years.

Kassian has more talent, but his inconsistency will cost him. You can notice Foligno out there every single game that he plays in. With Kassian, you don't. Plus, Foligno played great on the Sabres after the deadline last year.


Oh mann.. Ummm.. Hmmm.. I don't see it.

I was a huge Coho fan/lover but now that he is gone and the dust has settled I think it is easier for me to make an assessment on what he is, cause before it get's clouded by junior acomplishments exc. and You think he should fullfill that promise but now I realize he might not, I mean he will still be a good 2nd line center maybe even border line 1st but I don't see a surefire 1st line center in him, he doesn't have the mobility or overall game, to me he only excels in one zone and is average everywhere else.

As for Kassian I agree consistentcy can be an issue that is the biggest knock, he can focus to much on offensive and lose that physical edge or focus too much on being physical and run around and chase the game.

I think once both are developed Zack will bring more though as I said, Zack will take longer to develop than Cody but I think once Zack is at his best we will all be very happy with the deal.

For his sake I hope for the best but at this point I have trouble seeing him as a sure fire 1st liner.

I didn't say the trade was bad for Vancouver though, but it benefited the Sabres more. If the Canucks were going to make the trade, they should have waited until the offseason.


As Baggins once again explains:

Except, as I've already pointed out a few times, it was Buffalo shopping Kassian for a young center at the dealine. They were looking for an NHL ready center to push for the playoffs. Their need was immediate and they weren't going to wait until summer. Sometimes you have to make a trade when what you are looking for becomes available.


Edited by Smashian Kassian, 06 January 2013 - 02:51 AM.

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#416 Bodee

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 05:12 AM

I have been as tough as anyone when it came to criticising Tanev, Kass and Schroeder at the Wolves.

However I am fast coming round to the opinion that while most AHL teams have developed their prospects (general) I am now dubious about the value of any of our prospects playing in that set-up. I will go further, I think it has been counter productive to both their skills and their confidence.

I am glad the lockout has ended because we need to get these 3 players and Ebbett back to Vancouver and quickly. The lack of any descernable system in team/line selection or tactics has worried me for 2 seasons now regarding the Wolves.

Kassian seems to have been playing on the margins, avoiding physicality and generally made to look disinterested. Schroeder has also been patchy and lacked line mate consistency of selection.

Tanev has been made to look half the accomplished and composed player he was in Vancouver. Connauton has stalled completely and needed strong guidance and coaching this year, a year where we could have reasonably expected him to make some appearances in Vancouver.

This lockout must have been an eye opener for many of you. Probably seeing the Wolves regularly for the first time. Well not for me because ESPN America screened all last seasons games under MacT and take it from me he was only marginally better and even that I put down to having Mancari, Bitz, Duco, an in form Haydar and a couple of decent defenders.
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#417 King of the ES

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 06:58 AM

And King might take note - Lindros was refusing to play for Quebec - the whole world knew that Quebec had to trade him - and yet look at the return.


18 year-old, 6'4" manchild who had dominated the OHL and International play for years and was basically the LeBron James of hockey prospects is slightly different than 34 year-old goaltender with "playoff choker" reputation and 9 years left on a contract at $5.3M per in an environment of a declining salary cap.

See the difference?

Edited by King of the ES, 06 January 2013 - 07:10 AM.

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#418 King of the ES

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 07:03 AM

Basiclly I just don't think the deal is as bad for us as you said, Kassian in his prime will bring alot more to this team than Cody would in his prime, that's what MG meant when he said "Kassian will be a more influential player for us moving forward" and I agree with it.


...if he turns out to be like Milan Lucic, yes, that's true.

...if he turns out to be like any of the other "power forwards" sold to us by the Buffalo Sabres - Steve Bernier & Taylor Pyatt - then it will be a disaster. I think most will agree that Cody Hodgson is certainly a top-six player for the next decade, with All-Star potential. Him being slow today is not unlike what that Henrik Sedin guy was in his younger years.

Kassian is far more uncertain, far more boom/bust.
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#419 King of the ES

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 07:09 AM

Except, as I've already pointed out a few times, it was Buffalo shopping Kassian for a young center at the dealine. They were looking for an NHL ready center to push for the playoffs. Their need was immediate and they weren't going to wait until summer. Sometimes you have to make a trade when what you are looking for becomes available.


That's total crap. You're suggesting that Buffalo expected a rookie to waltz in and "push them to the playoffs"?

Of course they would've made the trade in the summer. Gillis simply bought in to the false urgency.
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#420 Navyblue

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 07:09 AM

...if he turns out to be like Milan Lucic, yes, that's true.

...if he turns out to be like any of the other "power forwards" sold to us by the Buffalo Sabres - Steve Bernier & Taylor Pyatt - then it will be a disaster. I think most will agree that Cody Hodgson is certainly a top-six player for the next decade, with All-Star potential. Him being slow today is not unlike what that Henrik Sedin guy was in his younger years.

Kassian is far more uncertain, far more boom/bust.


A Hank Sedin type that didn't want to be here.
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