Team Review and Suggested Moves (Discussion)

[Canuck Surfer]

3 hours ago, hammertime said:

When I think of this term I think of Pat Quinn who stood Pat. 

 

I think the cream of this crop of D will rise to the top thjs season we will find out who of Pouliot Hutton Joulevi is a top 4. We will find out if Tanev can get anything in return? If Gud can be a physical force? 

 

My pick is Stetcher to break out there is no quit in him and with Biega showing the way as a <6' being able to win physical puck battles has been essential. 

I would be surprised if Stecher did not become the most embedded of our current young D? Among Stecher, Pouliot & Hutton. He is quicker, stronger, works and competes much harder!

 

He's also a right side RHD with no impending replacement.  Even if we drafted Boqvist or Dobson, there is zero reason to think he would be forced out of the line up. As they would require, or at least benefit from, development time. The fact we also have no impending replacement remains good rationale for not moving Tanev yet as well @janisahockeynut. But could be acceptable if we made alternate moves.

 

As far as cream, Juolevi is the most talented followed by Pouliot? And neither is a big shot! Stech does get his through, create some lanes puckhandling into space along the line?  And even if we improved, we were still the last place defence for scoring from the back end. Last year I think we were second last?  There still needs to be a significant improvement in puck talent from the blue line!

 

To me standing pat would be disastrous. As would doing anything but walking away from the draft without 2 or 3 D picked in the top 4 rounds, hopefully one with our lottery pick! We need a talent injection.

 

 

[J.I.A.H.N]

9 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

I would be surprised if Stecher did not become the most embedded of our current young D? Among Stecher, Pouliot & Hutton. He is quicker, stronger, works and competes much harder!

 

He's also a right side RHD with no impending replacement.  Even if we drafted Boqvist or Dobson, there is zero reason to think he would be forced out of the line up. As they would require, or at least benefit from, development time. The fact we also have no impending replacement remains good rationale for not moving Tanev yet as well @janisahockeynut. But could be acceptable if we made alternate moves.

 

As far as cream, Juolevi is the most talented followed by Pouliot? And neither is a big shot! Stech does get his through, create some lanes puckhandling into space along the line?  And even if we improved, we were still the last place defence for scoring from the back end. Last year I think we were second last?  There still needs to be a significant improvement in puck talent from the blue line!

 

To me standing pat would be disastrous. As would doing anything but walking away from the draft without 2 or 3 D picked in the top 4 rounds, hopefully one with our lottery pick! We need a talent injection.

 

 

You mean I can stay! Thanks Surfer! LOL

[J.I.A.H.N]

11 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

I would be surprised if Stecher did not become the most embedded of our current young D? Among Stecher, Pouliot & Hutton. He is quicker, stronger, works and competes much harder!

 

He's also a right side RHD with no impending replacement.  Even if we drafted Boqvist or Dobson, there is zero reason to think he would be forced out of the line up. As they would require, or at least benefit from, development time. The fact we also have no impending replacement remains good rationale for not moving Tanev yet as well @janisahockeynut. But could be acceptable if we made alternate moves.

 

 

But seriously, I truly think we need to move Tanev for the highest return we can get (in picks) and sign a UFA 3 or 4 years, so our picks can develop properly

 

Just for illustration purposes.......we trade Tanev............we get a 16th to 20th OA + a 47th to 51st pick............along with our own picks we get..............

 

Vancover's 7th OA...........................RHD Bouchard/Dobson

18th OA............................................LHD Wilde/RHD Woo

37th OA............................................C Jake Wise

51st OA............................................LHD Alexyev

68th OA............................................RHD Adam Ginning

 

That would be a crazy good draft, that would set us up for a long time, with any luck...........and we would also have our UFA Carlson/Green

Holding down the fort, while these 5 percolate 

 

Tanev is the now, not the future....these picks represent the future

 

Someone suggested that we can not be Edmonton and always wait for the next one, I agree.........this goes along way to making our dream happen asap

 

Interchange the picks as you like..........but we are in the position to act, with huge upside,  I say we do!

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, janisahockeynut said:

But seriously, I truly think we need to move Tanev for the highest return we can get (in picks) and sign a UFA 3 or 4 years, so our picks can develop properly

 

Just for illustration purposes.......we trade Tanev............we get a 16th to 20th OA + a 47th to 51st pick............along with our own picks we get..............

 

Vancover's 7th OA...........................RHD Bouchard/Dobson

18th OA............................................LHD Wilde/RHD Woo

37th OA............................................C Jake Wise

51st OA............................................LHD Alexyev

68th OA............................................RHD Adam Ginning

 

That would be a crazy good draft, that would set us up for a long time, with any luck...........and we would also have our UFA Carlson/Green

Holding down the fort, while these 5 percolate 

 

Tanev is the now, not the future....these picks represent the future

 

Someone suggested that we can not be Edmonton and always wait for the next one, I agree.........this goes along way to making our dream happen asap

 

Interchange the picks as you like..........but we are in the position to act, with huge upside,  I say we do!

Oh I watched Tanev in the outgoing interview. I felt sorry for him, that blast in the face he took left some damage!  Hopefully just to his looks?

 

But he played what, 1/2 the games this year?  And even if we draft a Bouchard, Dobson, Wilde (who is a RHD BTW) they will need to be ushered in.

 

With 42 games and 10 or 11 points; I just don't think you are going to get the return suggested! Sad, but fact in my own look at things. Lots of people disagree with me! But he's still here? The times would have been at the deadline, to the Leafs? Or just after he had a successful World Hockey Championships at the end of 2016.  The reality is he is worth more to us than he is in trade? Further, as suggested we don't have a replacement & he wants to be here.  Add to it, Lindenning trumpeting that we do need some veteran mentors and leaders to steward in the new regime. Even discussing him as a potential leader or captain / assistant. Tanev simply makes it easier for the goalies, his D partner and all young players; exactly the guy Benning says he wants.  I don't think Tanev is going anywhere!   

 

That may change again next deadline. If he's been healthy? Certainly the one after, when he will be a pending UFA.  

 

 

 

 

[J.I.A.H.N]

12 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Oh I watched Tanev in the outgoing interview. I felt sorry for him, that blast in the face he took left some damage!  Hopefully just to his looks?

 

But he played what, 1/2 the games this year?  And even if we draft a Bouchard, Dobson, Wilde (who is a RHD BTW) they will need to be ushered in.

 

With 42 games and 10 or 11 points; I just don't think you are going to get the return suggested! Sad, but fact in my own look at things. Lots of people disagree with me! But he's still here? The times would have been at the deadline, to the Leafs? Or just after he had a successful World Hockey Championships at the end of 2016.  The reality is he is worth more to us than he is in trade? Further, as suggested we don't have a replacement & he wants to be here.  Add to it, Lindenning trumpeting that we do need some veteran mentors and leaders to steward in the new regime. Even discussing him as a potential leader or captain / assistant. Tanev simply makes it easier for the goalies, his D partner and all young players; exactly the guy Benning says he wants.  I don't think Tanev is going anywhere!   

 

That may change again next deadline. If he's been healthy? Certainly the one after, when he will be a pending UFA.  

 

 

 

 

Totally understand where you coming from

I like Tanev too, but when you said he worth more to us then anyone, my first thought was, how much is he really worth then cause he is never here?

I feel for him, But if we have to combine him with Baertschi  to get the return, I say do it.......Tanev is just putting in time, in a weird kind of way

Not that he does not play a great game, but he just can't be relied on to be there.......a shame really

And I can't argue your point, because its true, but it's like a son that has grown to big for the house.....he just has to go

I would make the trade, hug him and give him a couple hundred dollars and tell him he is great.....and wish him well

He is a warrior, but honestly, if he doesn't go now, he may not make it much longer

He needs a shorter travel schedule, more limited minutes, and a stronger team, so that less pressure gets put on his body......

Man, it is sad......and I honestly feel sorry for the way I feel

[Canuck Surfer]

4 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

he just can't be relied on to be there

Herein lies the problem?

 

While his value sits as damaged good, can we get the suggested return? Nothing you are saying rings untrue to me.  Except the hope of getting a 1st and another pick under current circumstance. Likely a sell low scenario that benefits no one.

 

Let him work himself healthy, help our young guys.  If he can get & stay healthy, the return will be better at one of the next deadlines. There are always teams looking & willing to pay for healthy D at the deadline.  

[Canucklehead73]

Character speculation aside Kane is too up and down points wise to offer him a retirement contract, I think Virtanen can fill his role if he starts hitting the net.

 

I'm ok with trading Baer and Tanev so long as we are upgrading on defense... Green is too old imho... By the time we arc upwards again.

 

Carlson would be a gamble to produce at the same level coming from a talented Washington team to a poor Vancouver team and why would he want to???

 

That being said... Carlson racking up 50-60 points for our team would be a revelation, we have no star on the back end so it's a need to fill at least in the short term.

 

Truly what the team needs in the short term and long term is a #1 Center. Short term we have nothing... Can Pettersson develop into one??? Everyone has made the assumption he can. So do we wait with Horvat for now as our #1? Who is our #2? Gagner? Granlund? Sutter? Pettersson? A lot of question marks.

 

If there was a time to reach into the UFA pool it would be for a #1 Defenseman and or a #1 Center but that is a bidding war as everyone wants the same thing.

 

 

[J.I.A.H.N]

On ‎2018‎-‎04‎-‎10 at 5:13 PM, Canuck Surfer said:

Herein lies the problem?

 

While his value sits as damaged good, can we get the suggested return? Nothing you are saying rings untrue to me.  Except the hope of getting a 1st and another pick under current circumstance. Likely a sell low scenario that benefits no one.

 

Let him work himself healthy, help our young guys.  If he can get & stay healthy, the return will be better at one of the next deadlines. There are always teams looking & willing to pay for healthy D at the deadline.  

Again, I can not argue with you POV........I can easily see it, and I agree with it to some extent.........

 

Was thinking of this.......just throwing it out there.......

 

Phili

2018 1st 19 OA (StL)

2018 2nd 45 OA (PHI)

2019 2nd (PHI)

A. McDonald RHD (cap dump) 2 years @

 

for

 

Tanev

Baertschi/Sutter

2020 3rd

 

Now, it seems like over payment, but this allows the Canucks to move our future along at a much faster pace.

MacDonald was also a +8 this year as well.....on a rebuilding team, he doesn't hurt you, and we can still sign another RHD is JB thinks he needs it

.....lots of options if need be......including a buy out if need be.

 

I also think that Phili is a team that can (A)..... afford it. (B)......need it. and (C) have the prospects to absorb the loss of future picks

Note that Phili needs Defensive help both on forward and Defense .....aka How Pittsburgh is laying them out 1st playoff game

Either Baertschi or Sutter provides defensive help

I think it is win/win for Phili.....they get enough in the present and if Tanev get healthier, they take the trade hands down

 

Again,  in the end your argument is valid, but I would still try moving Tanev anyway I can, if given a decent offer

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

4 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

Again, I can not argue with you POV........I can easily see it, and I agree with it to some extent.........

 

Was thinking of this.......just throwing it out there.......

 

Phili

2018 1st 19 OA (StL)

2018 2nd 45 OA (PHI)

2019 2nd (PHI)

A. McDonald RHD (cap dump) 2 years @

 

for

 

Tanev

Baertschi/Sutter

2020 3rd

 

Now, it seems like over payment, but this allows the Canucks to move our future along at a much faster pace.

MacDonald was also a +8 this year as well.....on a rebuilding team, he doesn't hurt you, and we can still sign another RHD is JB thinks he needs it

.....lots of options if need be......including a buy out if need be.

 

I also think that Phili is a team that can (A)..... afford it. (B)......need it. and (C) have the prospects to absorb the loss of future picks

Note that Phili needs Defensive help both on forward and Defense .....aka How Pittsburgh is laying them out 1st playoff game

Either Baertschi or Sutter provides defensive help

I think it is win/win for Phili.....they get enough in the present and if Tanev get healthier, they take the trade hands down

 

Again,  in the end your argument is valid, but I would still try moving Tanev anyway I can, if given a decent offer

 

 

Its a good target, and a good approach.  Philly would benefit by moving MacDonald. Due to salary.  But actually also because he is a LHD.  

 

They need salary cap room to get a RHD.

 

The need roster space to make room for; Sanheim, Morin. Who play behind Ghost, Provorov, MacDonald & Manning, all LHD. Extra time for Hagg who is getting some minutes.. 

 

Tanev is actually a very good target for Philly. If you are into moving Tanev... As they only have Gudas & prospect Myers as RHD. Send Tanev & take on MaDonald & you may have the making of a pretty good return?  

 

I'm not convinced they need Baertshi though. Or that we will move Sutter? Green likes Sutter for key match ups & he likes playing here.

[Canuck Surfer]

An interesting offer > Virtanen and a 4th for Sanheim & a 2knd?

 

Then draft Tkachuk.

 

Philly will need a 3rd line RW wi RAFL moving on.  Gets them speed and size, an heir apparent for when Voracek & Simmonds start to slow down in 2 or 3 years at RW.

[J.I.A.H.N]

2 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Its a good target, and a good approach.  Philly would benefit by moving MacDonald. Due to salary.  But actually also because he is a LHD.  

 

They need salary cap room to get a RHD.

 

The need roster space to make room for; Sanheim, Morin. Who play behind Ghost, Provorov, MacDonald & Manning, all LHD. Extra time for Hagg who is getting some minutes.. 

 

Tanev is actually a very good target for Philly. If you are into moving Tanev... As they only have Gudas & prospect Myers as RHD. Send Tanev & take on MaDonald & you may have the making of a pretty good return?  

 

I'm not convinced they need Baertshi though. Or that we will move Sutter? Green likes Sutter for key match ups & he likes playing here.

Thanks for the support

I realize we are just spit balling 

But I would like to see Benning explore this option

Tanev is awesome......either way......I hope for the best for him either way!

[J.I.A.H.N]

5 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

An interesting offer > Virtanen and a 4th for Sanheim & a 2knd?

 

Then draft Tkachuk.

 

Philly will need a 3rd line RW wi RAFL moving on.  Gets them speed and size, an heir apparent for when Voracek & Simmonds start to slow down in 2 or 3 years at RW.

I don't know....Benning really likes Virtanen, and he is just starting to come around.............let's just take the picks and develop our own

 

But in saying that...if Benning makes the move, I am going to trust his judgement.......

[Canuck Surfer]

8 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

An interesting offer > Virtanen and a 4th for Sanheim & a 2knd?

 

Then draft Tkachuk. Svechnikov

 

Philly will need a 3rd line RW wi RAFL moving on.  Gets them speed and size, an heir apparent for when Voracek & Simmonds start to slow down in 2 or 3 years at RW.

@janisahockeynut

[komodo0921]

I am really liking our pool of forward prospects and feel it's only a matter of time before we see quite a few of them in our lineup and becoming key pieces. Leave our forward group alone to sort itself out.

I want to see more attention being paid to our blueline. It is our biggest area of need.

I don't like the direction our blueline has taken. It's small, unreliable, and easily bullied (Guddy being the one exception).

I'd like to see it overhauled, turning it into a physical, threatening blueline with every shift.

I do expect some offense from each and every one of them but none have to be superstars (superstars get really expensive).

Juolevi is a solid prospect, but he's hardly the poster-boy for physicality.

One defenseman I'd like to sign, if he makes it to the open market, is Ian Cole. Smart defensive, gritty defenseman who can put up a few points. He should also be one that comes with a decent cap hit.

Adding Cole opens the door to trade one of our young dmen, Hutton making the most sense. He won't get much by himself but he could be an add-on to a bigger deal.

Another signing that could make sense, given our lack of pushback, is Ryan Reaves. Having Reaves backing them up would be of great benefit to their confidence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[J.I.A.H.N]

Directed at no one..............but important!

 

Our Dman are soft, as Komo has suggested

 

I have watched just 2 playoff games, have notice that so far, all the dmen are big, young and aggressive

 

So, we need to get a bigger Defensive core, as well as talented..........so think Bouchard and Dobson.......not smurf 1 or 2 (Hughes and Boqvist)

 

The current Tanev, MDZ, Pouliot, Joulevi and Hutton are not

 

I think we can skate with one or two, Juolevi types, but we need to get bigger.......big, big , positional, and aggressive, with good first passes

 

Hutton, if he hits the gym, can also meet that...he is big enough, needs to get stronger and more aggressive

 

Playoffs are still different and a war!

[Canuck Surfer]

3 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

Directed at no one..............but important!

 

Our Dman are soft, as Komo has suggested

 

I have watched just 2 playoff games, have notice that so far, all the dmen are big, young and aggressive

 

So, we need to get a bigger Defensive core, as well as talented..........so think Bouchard and Dobson.......not smurf 1 or 2 (Hughes and Boqvist)

 

The current Tanev, MDZ, Pouliot, Joulevi and Hutton are not

 

I think we can skate with one or two, Juolevi types, but we need to get bigger.......big, big , positional, and aggressive, with good first passes

 

Hutton, if he hits the gym, can also meet that...he is big enough, needs to get stronger and more aggressive

 

Playoffs are still different and a war!

Did you watch the Minny / Jets game?

 

Morrisey is 6' and plays against the best another team can put on the ice. That's Wpg. I do realize they have Byfuglien at the top end of the food chain.

 

Minnesota's top 3 today > Dumba is 183lbs, Brodin 194 lbs & the ultimate smurf Spurgeon 165 lbs & they are not exactly intimidating! What they can do is skate, protect the puck, make plays, close out forwards, angle players off the puck. Dumba played over 30 minutes with Suter out...

[Baggins]

On 4/9/2018 at 6:06 PM, Rob_Zepp said:

He is NOT a natural RW.   He has been forced into that a lot of his career but you can see in how he plays and how much more confidently he handles the puck and how much more offensively dangerous he is.   On this one, will disagree with the coaching decisions because you can see it in his game.

Yet prospect sites list him as a RW.

 

https://thehockeywriters.com/jake-virtanen-the-next-ones-2014-nhl-draft-prospect-profile/

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/jake-virtanen/

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/v/virtaja01.html

 

Personally I think he's perfectly capable of playing either wing. Not a bad thing. But his most productive year with the Hitmen was playing on the right side.

 

[Rob_Zepp]

4 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Yet prospect sites list him as a RW.

 

https://thehockeywriters.com/jake-virtanen-the-next-ones-2014-nhl-draft-prospect-profile/

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/jake-virtanen/

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/v/virtaja01.html

 

Personally I think he's perfectly capable of playing either wing. Not a bad thing. But his most productive year with the Hitmen was playing on the right side.

 

I know what I see when I watch him play.   Even back to WJC in 2015 when he was playing with McDavid et al he was RW but got a lot of his offence from the other side.   

 

I don't disagree he can play either wing but I firmly believe he can be a far more productive player coming on the off wing.    

[J.I.A.H.N]

7 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Did you watch the Minny / Jets game?

 

Morrisey is 6' and plays against the best another team can put on the ice. That's Wpg. I do realize they have Byfuglien at the top end of the food chain.

 

Minnesota's top 3 today > Dumba is 183lbs, Brodin 194 lbs & the ultimate smurf Spurgeon 165 lbs & they are not exactly intimidating! What they can do is skate, protect the puck, make plays, close out forwards, angle players off the puck. Dumba played over 30 minutes with Suter out...

Good Point

 

I guess I was thinking more of the LA - Vegas game

and the aggressiveness of pretty much all the dman I watched...............I agree though, skating was a huge part of it

Maybe it just playoff hockey in general........I just think we are a peg down on what we would provide for the playoffs

It is a concern.............but your point was very valid......

 

Still think that size matters if you get through to the finals...........

maybe not, as Pitts has been concerned, but I think generally, you have to have all parts covered....

Size, speed, positional, first pass, etc.......I am probably back pedaling a little

 

Maybe it is just the simple lack of skill......certainly the players you mentioned all have that!

 

Grrrr.........I hate when I loose an argument! lol

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

8 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

Good Point

 

I guess I was thinking more of the LA - Vegas game

and the aggressiveness of pretty much all the dman I watched...............I agree though, skating was a huge part of it

Maybe it just playoff hockey in general........I just think we are a peg down on what we would provide for the playoffs

It is a concern.............but your point was very valid......

 

Still think that size matters if you get through to the finals...........

maybe not, as Pitts has been concerned, but I think generally, you have to have all parts covered....

Size, speed, positional, first pass, etc.......I am probably back pedaling a little

 

Maybe it is just the simple lack of skill......certainly the players you mentioned all have that!

 

Grrrr.........I hate when I loose an argument! lol

 

 

Its not lost. Size that is. 

 

Watch the Lightning play? They have full on monsters on their D.  Vegas's neutral zone and pressure game is off the charts BTW.  No room at all, and part of that is size... Conversely, the Lightning are very small, but lightning fast & skilled up front!

 

You can mix and match lines?  Or stack and have a component others cannot deal with, like the Lightning. A coach has  the ability / responsibility to craft match up problems / resolve match up mismatches.

 

But back to the Lightning. I read a great article. Can't find it?  Essentially, as big D like Orpik for example, become a dying breed? And people overtly worry about a skinny or small forward, that tend to drop in the draft??  Russians and Czech's, particularly Russians when everyone else became consumed they would just hang in the KHL???  The Lightning were all over it & have been filled out with their team all the over prejudiced, low priced ''issues'' everyone else had.

 

Hell, Cory Conacher is back with the Bolts!

 

Sure they still had Stamkos & Hedman. But the point, pun intended, was they had no fear of investing in players where they saw fundamental talent.  And critically, its not the ones they found at the top of the draft?  It is they consistently found value, bargains in fact in guys like Palat? I think Johnson was an in-drafted UFA? So was 5'9'' Gourde. They know that in the 3rd and 5th round, there is going to be a component like size in forwards, missing at those points in the draft.  Or advanced puck skills in D?  Or had played in N America with Russians? They focussed on fundamentals. Ensured, even at a low cost, there was still the scout able skills like skating, balance on their skates in D (same thing we saw in Tryamkin), wicked agility & puck skills in forwards. Understanding that development & good deployment, and coaching systems could find a place for such skills.    

 

Then they played these guys in key situations, for long periods of time in the minors, in Europe. Put them to work on the specific skills the player needed to work on. Played a similar system & drew them seamlessly into the line up when the opportunity arose. In a situation where their size, or speed, or puck skill could be utilized...

 

Point being nobody has to shy away from size, lacking or having, if their is a strategic way to use the skills a player does have!