Journalist Gloats Over Jordan Peterson's Troubles

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, BoKnows said:

I don't understand his take on freedom then.  To me we're free because we have freedom of choice on work, spending, living, etc.

 

I also don't really agree with Karl Marx's definition of exploitation.  Anyone is able to start their own company, and quit a job if they don't like it.  The real kick in the balls is the million regulations/hoops the government makes you jump through before you can even open your doors.  The government should make it easier to start companies not insanely annoying and difficult to the point where people give up.  For the part-time workers, if there's a legitimate reason why they're limited to only work part-time hours there should be a program in place to help them out.  

 

The whole idea of "Seizing the means of production" so the working class isn't "exploited" is a flawed ideology.

 

I do agree with you on these superficial videos though, they're meant to install fear into people and teach them very little.

imo you have to look at this kind of stuff in two ways - the use of Marxism as a criticism of capitalism, and the use of it in actual planning. They are very different things.

 

You have to remember when Marx was coming up with this stuff, mid-1800s wasn't a great time for the average worker and capitalism really was utterly cruel to many people. 

 

Marx wasn't wrong on a lot of his criticisms, he was wrong on a lot of the ideas for new systems. But he also died 30ish years before the Russian revolution so we won't ever know what he thought of their solution.

 

Marx does a pretty good job from what I recall (its been a while) on describing power imbalances in societies. So a person can critique modern capitalism as a "Marxist" but not agree at all with any economic ideas of his. 

 

But this is the kind of fine point that won't sell a self help book. 

 

[BoKnows]

7 minutes ago, Robert Long said:

imo you have to look at this kind of stuff in two ways - the use of Marxism as a criticism of capitalism, and the use of it in actual planning. They are very different things.

 

You have to remember when Marx was coming up with this stuff, mid-1800s wasn't a great time for the average worker and capitalism really was utterly cruel to many people. 

 

Marx wasn't wrong on a lot of his criticisms, he was wrong on a lot of the ideas for new systems. But he also died 30ish years before the Russian revolution so we won't ever know what he thought of their solution.

 

Marx does a pretty good job from what I recall (its been a while) on describing power imbalances in societies. So a person can critique modern capitalism as a "Marxist" but not agree at all with any economic ideas of his. 

 

But this is the kind of fine point that won't sell a self help book. 

 

I'll be the first to admit that capitalism does have it's problems.  Maybe there are some useful tidbits from Marx's works that can help us grow as a society.  Many of people my age who identify as "marxist" are actively vouching to completely overhaul the economic system to a communist one.  Mind you these people are in a minority and are the type to don't work cause it's a "drag".

[JM_]

32 minutes ago, BoKnows said:

I'll be the first to admit that capitalism does have it's problems.  Maybe there are some useful tidbits from Marx's works that can help us grow as a society.  Many of people my age who identify as "marxist" are actively vouching to completely overhaul the economic system to a communist one.  Mind you these people are in a minority and are the type to don't work cause it's a "drag".

 

thats because those people have already staked out a corner office at central planning and don't see themselves as the ones picking potatoes. 

 

Campus commies have been around for 150 years. Its not going to take root here, unless we let our system get so far out of hand that there's nothing left to lose. 

 

But that doesn't mean the criticisms of our economic or political systems are wrong to use some aspects of Marxism, its just one lens on things. 

[BoKnows]

5 minutes ago, Robert Long said:

 

thats because those people have already staked out a corner office at central planning and don't see themselves as the ones picking potatoes. 

 

Campus commies have been around for 150 years. Its not going to take root here, unless we let our system get so far out of hand that there's nothing left to lose. 

 

But that doesn't mean the criticisms of our economic or political systems are wrong to use some aspects of Marxism, its just one lens on things. 

I think we've come to an agreement.  

 

We can look to marxism as a potential solution, or part of the solution to one of our economic and political issues. 

[JM_]

1 hour ago, BoKnows said:

I think we've come to an agreement.  

 

We can look to marxism as a potential solution, or part of the solution to one of our economic and political issues. 

the way I look at it is, Marx did such a good job of criticizing capitalism, a lot of that side of his work still stands up today. But poking holes is one thing, coming up with something better is another. 

 

[BoKnows]

5 minutes ago, Robert Long said:

the way I look at it is, Marx did such a good job of criticizing capitalism, a lot of that side of his work still stands up today. But poking holes is one thing, coming up with something better is another. 

 

That’s the best way to say it.  

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, BoKnows said:

That’s the best way to say it.  

I got that one from my dad 

[BoKnows]

21 minutes ago, Robert Long said:

I got that one from my dad 

Your father is a smart man.

[Timbermen]

Marxism is the vehicle

socialism is the filling station

communism is the destination

[BoKnows]

Just now, Timbermen said:

Marxism is the vehicle

socialism is the filling station

communism is the destination

That's an interesting analogy.  You'll need a totalitarian government to get from point A to C.

[Timbermen]

This interview was very prophetic.

 

[JM_]

13 hours ago, Timbermen said:

Marxism is the vehicle

socialism is the filling station

communism is the destination

I think if communism is your goal thats not a bad way to look at it. But people who use Marx's ideas to point out flaws in our current system don't always want communism  thats one of the assumptions / right wing talking points that makes all this fall flat and we can't have a real discussion about it. Its not some sort of inevitability that a Marxist critique = communist end point.

 

Capitalism unchecked brings bad things too - look at the housing bubble crash, the wealth gap, sweat shop fast fashion e.g. Do we give this stuff a pass because a campus Marxist said it was bad?

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Robert Long

[JM_]

14 hours ago, Timbermen said:

This interview was very prophetic.

 

OK I watched this, and I want my 13 minutes back  

 

So much wrong here. But its interesting to me because what he's trying to use as an example actually happened in my family history in the Ukraine. 

 

The main assumption that the conditions that led to Stalin and what happened in Ukraine are comparable to today is utterly ridiculous. We are nowhere near anything like what was happening then, either from a systematic, cultural or economic pov.   And then from that we must view the words "diversity" and "equality" as things to be afraid of today.

 

I mean, how can anyone actually draw these conclusions and expect to be taken seriously? 

 

 

 

[CBH1926]

14 hours ago, Timbermen said:

This interview was very prophetic.

 

What is happening right now is so similar to Holodmor, that I don’t even know where to start.

[Timbermen]

Solid stuff, These impressive intellectuals have all the answers, just trust them. 

 

[JM_]

32 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

What is happening right now is so similar to Holodmor, that I don’t even know where to start.

I guess they figure that because it happened 90 years ago that the comparison seems legitimate? its just a head shaker to me. 

[CBH1926]

2 minutes ago, Robert Long said:

I guess they figure that because it happened 90 years ago that the comparison seems legitimate? its just a head shaker to me. 

They think we are going to see millions of dead people from starvation.

I wonder who is going to play role of Stalin, who was next to Hitler biggest mass murderer in history.

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

They think we are going to see millions of dead people from starvation.

I wonder who is going to play role of Stalin, who was next to Hitler biggest mass murderer in history.

[CBH1926]

Just now, Robert Long said:

Melania approves of this image!

Probably thinks of him while getting porked by the orange shroom.

[bishopshodan]

I've watched a few JP videos since the start of this thread.

 

I will watch more but one thing I noticed is he seems bitter and angry a lot. I wasn't expecting that. I would have thought a  guy with his intelligence and conviction would come off a bit calmer. 

In the 13 min vid above...about 45 seconds in he is already snarling at the fictional poor people he is describing "haven't done any thing productive with even a second in their life"

Then he claims these lazy,miserable, low life people after some manipulation by communist intellectuals and 6, no 10, no 20 cups of Mead became organised and productive in a very evil sense and headed out to their wealthy neighbours and raped their daughters. This might have been the case, but as he is trying to draw parallels to the modern day it seems...well, does he try to stoke fear?

Again, I'll watch more and try to hear what he is saying through his emotions.