[PGT] Meltdown/Collapse

[mrhopeless]

What we're seeing is the result of giving the finger to player development. Every since Gillis has arrived the Canucks have been very near the bottom when it comes to a pipeline of young players. (e.g. around 28th in the league) We're slightly better now, but this is misleading since it mainly stems from trading Schneider and drafting Horvat. The first thing MG ever did was trade a second and a third for Bernier. Just last year he needlessly and uselessly traded Connauton and a second for Roy. He traded CH for might-be, wanna-be named Kassian. He traded two fourth round picks for a Swedish rental whose name escapes me. He needlessly traded a first round pick (plus Grabner) to Florida... and so on. The list of stupid, needless moves is a long one... and now we pay the price.

- People drone on about prospects but ignore the fact the Canucks are near the bottom of the league in having bona fide prospects.

- There is no quick fix for this problem. The only sensible thing is to fire Gillis and get a real GM; one that will take player development seriously. (If the owner won't step out of the picture even this might not help.)

[Fozzy]

So anyway, if the season was to finish now what pick would we get?

[aGENT]

What we're seeing is the result of giving the finger to player development. Every since Gillis has arrived the Canucks have been very near the bottom when it comes to a pipeline of young players. (e.g. around 28th in the league) We're slightly better now, but this is misleading since it mainly stems from trading Schneider and drafting Horvat. The first thing MG ever did was trade a second and a third for Bernier. Just last year he needlessly and uselessly traded Connauton and a second for Roy. He traded CH for might-be, wanna-be named Kassian. He traded two fourth round picks for a Swedish rental whose name escapes me. He needlessly traded a first round pick (plus Grabner) to Florida... and so on. The list of stupid, needless moves is a long one... and now we pay the price.

- People drone on about prospects but ignore the fact the Canucks are near the bottom of the league in having bona fide prospects.

- There is no quick fix for this problem. The only sensible thing is to fire Gillis and get a real GM; one that will take player development seriously. (If the owner won't step out of the picture even this might not help.)

Oldnews summed this up nicely...

People need to think about the youth gap in context imo.

What has made these past few months a disaster? Aside from the injuries, the coach drama/suspension, the Olympic schedule combined with the Canucks specifically exhausting schedule (something addressed in the thread regarding the Pacific division's pre-Olympic skid), and the challenges of moving cap or 'resetting' in a cap drop, post CBA context: aside from those things there is another not so obvious underlying problem imo that Gillis identified some time ago, and moved in the last couple seasons to address.

This team, ideally would be a year or two further along in the development of their prospect pool and their AHL franchise.

That can only be attributed in small part to the current management.

If you look at the pre-Gillis years, through poor youth management and a few cases of tragedy, the Canucks were on course for contention, but also a talent gap.

2005 - Raymond would be the only player to become a Canuck regular. Their young star defenseman loses his life (RIP Luc Bourdon).

2006 - Grabner is the only NHL talent added through the draft, and that was debatable until after being dealt for a needed blueliner and subsequently being waived by Florida.

2007 - the Canucks land no NHL talent in the draft. Gillis later rescues the proceeds by dealing Patrick White for Ehrhoff, however despite the tremendous take in that deal, the underlying reality is a remaining lack of talent coming into the system.

2008 - Gillis is hired. The Canucks 1st round pick, and Gillis' first draft pick, would eventually prove to be unsatisfied, as a rookie, with his role as a 3rd line center behind Hart and Selke veterans. He is dealt to address the most pressing need in the organization - a young power forward - I liked the deal and still do, but it remains the case that through these four years of drafting, the Canucks really added only Kassian and Raymond in terms of talented youth. Their second round pick Sauve looked promising but suffered a serious setback in a car accident and hasn't really managed to become the player he appeared to be early in his career.

Where Gillis was highly successful was finding extremely good value in NHL roster players like Higgins, Malhotra, Lapierre, etc, to be carried through to the present with players like Richardson, Santorelli, Stanton.... He's done this in the context of having highly competitive teams that needed depth now - the costs to the prospect pool were moderate, but certainly didn't reverse the reality that the cupboards were scarce from the years preceding his tenure, and the players he was drafting were just starting to emerge. In addition, a combination of late picks and taking a few seasons to develop better footing didn't exactly expedite the process. They dealt their 1st once in the process - Howden becoming that pick (after their guy wasn't availabe - apparently Tinordi).

Which pretty much brings us to 2010/11 - when the Canucks not only were peaking in terms of their competiveness and contention, but were also starting to lay groundwork that they'd be able to take advantage of in due course.

They signed Tanev and Lack in the unsigned free agency market - a pair of obvious successes.

Their drafting (although still somewhat early to judge, nevertheless) appears to improve significantly. They take Jensen late, and add Corrado, Grenier, Tommernes, Blomstrand. They added Gaunce and Hutton the following year, They've continued to supplement in the unsigned FA market with Fox, Eriksson, Archibald and Lain. And then last year they started to reverse the buying trend, selling to add Horvat, as well as Shinkaruk, Cassells, Cederholm, Subban.

They have also obviously been quite successful in the UFA market, adding a pair of their top 4 in Hamhuis and Garrison, as well as numerous quality depth forwards.

The gap however, is a problem that becomes more evident the past few years when the team is hammered by injuries, and the development of their prospect pool somewhat lagging. With a fair amount of quite young talent, they nevertheless lacked NHL ready talent - and the premier players they had acquired - Jensen and Schroeder have also suffered injuries/setbacks.

The Canucks imo had a very solid core, but when the cap dropped, they did not have the NHL ready youth to step in, and they were in a tight spot, unable to be going out and buying - thankfully they excercised a lot of restraint in that sense. Simultaneously, moving cap or contracts became more difficult as all teams faced cap and financial challenges. People can pine that some magical cheap top 6 wasn't presto-d out of play-dough, but imo they protest too much.

People can also use 'closing window' analogies and hitting rock bottom rationalizations for tearing things down (in the context of terrible sellers markets to boot), but in the end, I think these two months are truly as bad as it gets. A whole number of factors combined - but the one thing that is closing is that gap between the core and the youth, something for the most part that resulted from dry years from 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009...

From there forward however.... Tanev, Lack, Kassian, Jensen, Schroeder, Horvat, Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Fox, Eriksson, Corrado, Cassells, Grenier, Hutton, Archibald, Lain, Tommernes, and now Matthias, Markstrom...

So I can't share the panic or the impatience - and am squarely not in the fire Gillis crowd. There is a 'process'/continuum that imo saw a fairly marked underlying shift or upturn from 2010 to present, a gap that I think is on the cusp of closing in the sense of the roster. Whereas the team was lacking youth to supplement and lessen the impact of injuries, and were limited by cap space, it now has a great deal more youth, a significant amount of cap space, the bulk of it's roster signed to very reasonable terms (spare me the complaints about Gillis contracts post-Luongo) and a great deal more options than it's had in a very long time.

The last thing I'd want to see is that groundwork handed over to some of the names being bantered around.

[cbdoubleu]

Best Meltdown Memes

http://storify.com/SlamSports/vancouver-canucks-crash-and-burn-in-epic-third-per

[CrippledCanuck]

So anyway, if the season was to finish now what pick would we get?

Somewhere around 8th I believe but I could be wrong.

[aGENT]

Somewhere around 8th I believe but I could be wrong.

Must keep losing. Get in top 5!

[Ugli Fruit]

Yeah I'm not sure what people were expecting...they keep demanding a re-tool/build not apparently realizing that one has already started (or did they miss trading Schneider for Horvat, Luongo for a young 3C and goalie prospect etc?).

And what happens during a re-tool/build? You lose and it sucks. That's what.

You're already getting what you're asking for people. Either ride out the bumps or just hop off the freaking wagon already.

You're saying a rebuild will involve the team's worst ever meltdown in franchise history? You're saying "getting mad" is a sign of being a bandwagoner?

You do realize, that the Canucks conceded 7 goals in one period right? Seven? That's a little bit worse than losing.

[iamacanuck15]

fyi - Lu let in 5 goals last night.

Four. Fifth was empty net.

[aGENT]

You're saying a rebuild will involve the team's worst ever meltdown in franchise history? You're saying "getting mad" is a sign of being a bandwagoner?

You do realize, that the Canucks conceded 7 goals in one period right? Seven? That's a little bit worse than losing.

I'm saying we're in transition and re-tools/builds involve losing. Sometimes in glorious fashion. Particularly in a year where vast injuries and a shrinking cap compound the issues of a re-tool/build.

Nope, getting "mad" or upset that your team is losing is a natural reaction. Not recognizing after a few months of it with the context of where we came from and where we're going is irrational.

If "you" are indeed as mad as you say you are why are you still supporting this horrible, horrible team that makes your blood boil? Get off the bandwagon, it's doing you more harm than good.

If you're are indeed a fan, go through the steps of grief, mourn the loss, accept what's happening and support the players of "your" team as they work through this tough time until we come out the other end.

[nuck1031]

I don't know if they are in a full rebuilt or trying to make playoffs, cus what they are doing is suicide. To rebuild, you trade away your assets at their highest point ie at trade deadline, get draft picks, let youngsters play and tank to get more draft picks. Then you draft and build from what you drafted.

Or you keep your assets including Lu, get rental(s) to address urgent needs ie socring, and try to make playoffs.

What ended up getting done was a mixture of the worst case from both scenarios. Traded Lu for nothing (no draft picks), now goal is facked. Didn't trade anyone else, meaning dimished value for the vets come summer now everyone knows the canucks are facked and is trying to off load and less chance for youngsters to play cus vets still hogging the lineup. And most importantly, the team now has one more problem: goal tending, aside from the previous one: scoring.

It doesn't take rocket science to figure out, really, and in short, Canucks are really facked.

[B00MER]

Until Lack lets in 7-8 goals in must win playoff games I will still stand by him. This game meant about as much as an exhibition game. We were never making the playoffs anyway so if you're gonna blame Lack, then he actually did us a favour by helping us get a higher pick.

[fagin]

fyi - Lu let in 5 goals last night.

Yeh but also made 37 saves against BOSTON for .902%.Johnson on the other hand made 20 saves for .909%

[VMR]

Until Lack lets in 7-8 goals in must win playoff games I will still stand by him. This game meant about as much as an exhibition game. We were never making the playoffs anyway so if you're gonna blame Lack, then he actually did us a favour by helping us get a higher pick.

There is a less demeaning way for the team to lose. The question should not be about standing by Lack, he stunk up the building. He should have been saved if only to keep his spirit up. Losing is not bad, its a great learning experience. The powers that be, are killing trade values and or deflating a players that could haunt us for many years.

BTW, getting high draft picks does not guarantee we build a winner. People that think losing is they way to go need to think about that.

[Hadi]

MG & Torterella --- Look what have you done both to the team???? What next? Lu been traded, cory has been traded, good excellent quality elite goalie have been traded what in return??? yet to determine… I missed AV, he is a coach knows his job well, unlike the Tort's… we need change in management and coach. Vancouver Fan deserve better than what they are getting Now!!!

[fagin]

Until Lack lets in 7-8 goals in must win playoff games I will still stand by him. This game meant about as much as an exhibition game. We were never making the playoffs anyway so if you're gonna blame Lack, then he actually did us a favour by helping us get a higher pick.

Not wanting to sound repetitive,but goaltending has been the least of the Canucks problems for several seasons.

The Canucks core players are well beyond their due date, this includes Kesler.Although in fairness he does look good on such a lacklustre team.(no pun intended).

[Cold Hard Truth]

I just don't understand how this garbage team's crap performance is a shock to anyone anymore.

This is the same team of losers that have been no shows in the last 2 post seasons and only got to them because they feeded on weak division.

This is the same team that got Vigneault fired. Now it's going to be Torts ?

What the hell is wrong with you people ?

This team of losers has desperately needed 2x TOP forwards and and a number #1 D for years now and Gillis sat on his ass doing nothing except losing his 2 x #1 goalies.

How is any of this a surprise ?

Torts was brought into either

A) Wake the clowns up or ) B Shake free the NTC's

so it's looking like B.

The fanbase has welcomed a massive change to this roster for years. This is on Gillis.

This team has needed to get nuked since the collapse against Boston.

Anyone with a functioning brain could see it plain as day, their collapse in the SC final broke this "core"

Time to nuke the core.

[fagin]

There is a less demeaning way for the team to lose. The question should not be about standing by Lack, he stunk up the building. He should have been saved if only to keep his spirit up. Losing is not bad, its a great learning experience. The powers that be, are killing trade values and or deflating a players that could haunt us for many years.

BTW, getting high draft picks does not guarantee we build a winner. People that think losing is they way to go need to think about that.

So they left Lack in,it's a learning curve.How many times did AV leave Lou in when he was being shelled even though we had Cory on the bench.

[cbdoubleu]

Only 4 points out, though I expect that gap to grow...

[Dedalus]

So is this how the NHL are plotting to recruit fans for Seattle's new hockey team?

[aGENT]

I just don't understand how this garbage team's crap performance is a shock to anyone anymore.

This is the same team of losers that have been no shows in the last 2 post seasons and only got to them because they feeded on weak division.

This is the same team that got Vigneault fired. Now it's going to be Torts ?

What the hell is wrong with you people ?

This team of losers has desperately needed 2x TOP forwards and and a number #1 D for years now and Gillis sat on his ass doing nothing except losing his 2 x #1 goalies.

How is any of this a surprise ?

Torts was brought into either

A) Wake the clowns up or ) B Shake free the NTC's

so it's looking like B.

The fanbase has welcomed a massive change to this roster for years. This is on Gillis.

This team has needed to get nuked since the collapse against Boston.

Anyone with a functioning brain could see it plain as day, their collapse in the SC final broke this "core"

Time to nuke the core.

The "easy division" argument doesn't hold water and has been refuted on here numerous times and Gillis has not "sat on his bum"... Otherwise, while a touch on the extreme side, at least you're pointed in the generally correct direction.