key2thecup Posted April 2, 2014 Author Share Posted April 2, 2014 Now that you have had a chance to explain why you believe what you do that I'll tell you my side. "I still remember that day in elementary school. I was going home and outside there was a van that had a cross logo on it and there was man with small book standing outside it. I was trying to go around and he asked me to take the book and come to this church on Sunday. I just wanted to go home and play with my toy cars and since it was 4 long blocks away I didn't want to waste anytime. So I said I was okay and tried to walk away. Then he blocked my way and with angry eyes said "please take this book and read it with you parents" I was frightened didn't say a word. I ran back to the school and told my teacher. He looked outside and saw the van. He went outside to try to drive the man away the man saw me coming with my teacher and ran into his van and drove away" I have countless other less dramatic stories like this and I am not knocking religion or anything but just saying that's my side of the story since you told yours. Like a said before not all people who believe in religion are like that but there are some that tarnish the reputation just like your case. Not every atheist is arrogant like you describe them but from what you've seen they are. Same with my side. Lets leave it at that. Good to hear there are teachers that look at all sides of the issue not just what MSM tells them..... (your social studies teacher) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gumballthechewy Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Now that you have had a chance to explain why you believe what you do that I'll tell you my side. "I still remember that day in elementary school. I was going home and outside there was a van that had a cross logo on it and there was man with small book standing outside it. I was trying to go around and he asked me to take the book and come to this church on Sunday. I just wanted to go home and play with my toy cars and since it was 4 long blocks away I didn't want to waste anytime. So I said I was okay and tried to walk away. Then he blocked my way and with angry eyes said "please take this book and read it with you parents" I was frightened didn't say a word. I ran back to the school and told my teacher. He looked outside and saw the van. He went outside to try to drive the man away the man saw me coming with my teacher and ran into his van and drove away" I have countless other less dramatic stories like this and I am not knocking religion or anything but just saying that's my side of the story since you told yours. Like I said before not all people who believe in religion are like that but there are some that tarnish the reputation just like your case. Not every atheist is arrogant like you describe them but from what you've seen they are. Same with my side. Lets leave it at that. Honestly, the conclusion I've come to is that there are equal parts crazy/arrogant/normal when it comes to any belief system. Between me and my three closest friends we are catholic, christian and atheist and we all get along just fine. But the most asinine of these groups are usually the most vocal, thus becoming the face of that group. I don't think believing in a religion is a bad thing and I think religion and science can co-exist. The only problem I have with religious people are the extreme ones who believe every word of the bible as fact, that's it. Also sorry for being so rude to you in my last response, that was uncalled for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRussianRocket. Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Me too! And since I am civil engineer, I can be on the fast track to be the TOP terrorist! (All the good terrorists are former civil engineers....) I'm a soon-to-be civil engineer myself too! ...but I'm not a terrorist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jägermeister Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 People like to jump to extremes here eh? Some athiests are dicks. Some are nice. Same as any other group of people. Some agnostics are dicks. Some are nice. Same as any other group of people. Some religious folk are dicks. Some are nice. Same as any other group of people. Extremists are dicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddhas Hand Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Yeah the Wahabbist sect that was put into power by the British during the early 1900's is the most extreme form of Islam. The whole cover women up in Burkas is a by-product of this monarchy. It doesn't say anywhere in the Quaran that women have to do that..... any Muslims on CDC please clarify what I just said as true... The Iranians were actually really pro-western with the Shah, then the West pulled a co-up and put in the extremist Mullahs..... if they didn't pull that co-up, the influence of a pro-west Iran could have significantly changed the make-up of the middle east in today's era..... hell not putting the Wahabbist in control of Saudi, that countries population could have been the most advanced and intelligent on this planet because that oil money would have actually gone into building infrastructure and education. The US did support a Coup in Iran in 1953 the people they helped put in power were corrupt and greedy , in the mid to late 70,s Iranians were sick of their corrupt leaders taking all of the proceeds of Irans Oil sales and living in an absurdly luxurious lifestyle while the average Iranian had Jack- Sh!t. First there were student demonstrations and the religious leaders saw their chance to grab power ,Ayatollah Khomeni who was in exile in france became a focal point and after the Shah fled Iran Khomeni was invited back to form a government , It was the Pahlavi's Dynasty greed that was their undoing , America was supporting them not trying to oust them in a coup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddhas Hand Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Yet there are all those "ignorant" non religious people out there proving that the grass isn't greener. I don't see organized religion dying, changing yes, but not dying. Most people need something to believe in ,and most people want to be told People like to jump to extremes here eh? Some athiests are dicks. Some are nice. Same as any other group of people. Some agnostics are dicks. Some are nice. Same as any other group of people. Some religious folk are dicks. Some are nice. Same as any other group of people. Extremists are dicks. Religious people have caused so much pain and suffering in this world because of their beliefs, this is not the case with agnostics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsflash Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Yes science has discovered stuff that certain religions have already proved many decades before. Such as? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsflash Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 That's hilarious for certain things like Religion: All planets revolve around the the earth Science: All planets revolve around the sun Then there is the positive thinking trend which is basically a part of every religion and just now science in Japan showed the effects of positive thinking. But overall there is no doubt at all that Science>>>>> Religion hands down I'm not even laughing at stuff like that. I'm laughing at the fact he thinks religion can prove something. Religion is mostly faith-based. I'm interested in reading what religion has tried to prove or already "proved". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRussianRocket. Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 ^"religion" is a really broad word. From so many religions, there have been many things which have been stated and 'proved'. And when I say 'proved', I mean not scientifically proven because I'm assuming religions never did scientific experiments when they stated things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummer4now Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Such as? Well in Hinduism, Sikhism, and Islam there was already foundations of astronomy well before European astronomers started to discover new planets. Another discovery would be from the ancient religion of Zoroastrianism, Persia was the first place to utilize driveshafts on chariots. These are just some scientific discoveries.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conscience Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Similar to what Quebec is trying to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsflash Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Well in Hinduism, Sikhism, and Islam there was already foundations of astronomy well before European astronomers started to discover new planets. Another discovery would be from the ancient religion of Zoroastrianism, Persia was the first place to utilize driveshafts on chariots. These are just some scientific discoveries.. Can you provide me some links of them proving these "foundations of astronomy"? I don't know much about Zoroastrianism or drive-shafts. If they had drive-shafts, what does the engineering have to do with an actual religion? Or religion proving something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsflash Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 ^"religion" is a really broad word. From so many religions, there have been many things which have been stated and 'proved'. And when I say 'proved', I mean not scientifically proven because I'm assuming religions never did scientific experiments when they stated things Thank you for the reply. What does proof mean in the religious context? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRussianRocket. Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Can you provide me some links of them proving these "foundations of astronomy"? ^not to interfere or anything, but religions (that I know of and have studied) that began in Asia had created calendars well before the modern day calendars have came out now. They are diff then modern day calendars and the ones I studied are based around the moon and make perfect sense, arguably much more sensible than today's calendar (which I follow so calm down, I'm not saying in against it lol, just giving my opinion that the old ones make much more sense). Also, science discovered there's galaxies outside of our galaxy and etc while these Asia-based religion(s) said say hundreds of years prior. Also match how scientists describe the universe began as it says in it's scriptures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRussianRocket. Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Thank you for the reply. What does proof mean in the religious context? I'm not one to say. I'm saying they stated it before science proved it which pretty much means they were the first ones to be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummer4now Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Can you provide me some links of them proving these "foundations of astronomy"? I don't know much about Zoroastrianism or drive-shafts. If they had drive-shafts, what does the engineering have to do with an actual religion? Or religion proving something? Sure here are links to my Sikhism analogy: http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Granth_Sahib_on_the_Universe http://sikhinstitute.org/oct_2010/5-hlal.html http://www.sikhreview.org/pdf/march1997/pdf-files/metaphysics.pdf http://books.google.ca/books?id=KxndvJs3wUkC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=astronomy+and+sikhism&source=bl&ots=wH2SRhuGK9&sig=_VcKc4v_Ta5U1BGOxB744_bDOD4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jaM8U4y6FMbg2AXI1YEw&ved=0CFwQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=astronomy%20and%20sikhism&f=false Links to Hinduism analogy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_astronomy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Hindu_astronomy http://www.bharatvani.org/books/ait/ch22.htm Links to Islam analogy: http://moonsighting.com/articles/roleofislam.html http://enhg4.4t.com/b/b33/33_10.htm Links to Zoroastrianism analogy: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.1086/599560?uid=3739400&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=3737720&uid=4&sid=21103596085181 I couldn't find an article linking driveshafts to Zoroastrianism but it was very progressive religion. If you require scientific journals for more proof I'm sure Google scholar has some articles, but that up to you to validate my points. Also what I meant by "foundations" is they at least acknowledged the existence of planets besides earth. I just realized some of links don't work you may have to copy and paste them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummer4now Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 ^not to interfere or anything, but religions (that I know of and have studied) that began in Asia had created calendars well before the modern day calendars have came out now. They are diff then modern day calendars and the ones I studied are based around the moon and make perfect sense, arguably much more sensible than today's calendar (which I follow so calm down, I'm not saying in against it lol, just giving my opinion that the old ones make much more sense). Also, science discovered there's galaxies outside of our galaxy and etc while these Asia-based religion(s) said say hundreds of years prior. Also match how scientists describe the universe began as it says in it's scriptures. I agree this is described in some of the links I have posted. In particular the Sikhism one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsflash Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 ^not to interfere or anything, but religions (that I know of and have studied) that began in Asia had created calendars well before the modern day calendars have came out now. They are diff then modern day calendars and the ones I studied are based around the moon and make perfect sense, arguably much more sensible than today's calendar (which I follow so calm down, I'm not saying in against it lol, just giving my opinion that the old ones make much more sense). Also, science discovered there's galaxies outside of our galaxy and etc while these Asia-based religion(s) said say hundreds of years prior. Also match how scientists describe the universe began as it says in it's scriptures. I understand science has discovered support for some things religions previously said were true. But maybe I'm not making myself clear... how did they prove it? How did Asia-based religions prove there were many galaxies outside of our galaxy? You said they did not scientifically prove it (btw scientists do not prove things, they find evidence to support things), and that is why I asked you what proof means in a religious context. I'm not one to say. I'm saying they stated it before science proved it which pretty much means they were the first ones to be correct. Okay, so I take it when you said religion proved something you mean they made a correct hypothesis? Sure here are links to my Sikhism analogy: http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Granth_Sahib_on_the_Universe http://http://sikhinstitute.org/oct_2010/5-hlal.html http://www.sikhreview.org/pdf/march1997/pdf-files/metaphysics.pdf http://books.google.ca/books?id=KxndvJs3wUkC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=astronomy+and+sikhism&source=bl&ots=wH2SRhuGK9&sig=_VcKc4v_Ta5U1BGOxB744_bDOD4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jaM8U4y6FMbg2AXI1YEw&ved=0CFwQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=astronomy%20and%20sikhism&f=false Links to Hinduism analogy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_astronomy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Hindu_astronomy, http://www.bharatvani.org/books/ait/ch22.htm Links to Islam analogy: http://moonsighting.com/articles/roleofislam.html, http://enhg4.4t.com/b/b33/33_10.htm Links to Zoroastrianism analogy: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.1086/599560?uid=3739400&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=3737720&uid=4&sid=21103596085181 I couldn't find an article linking driveshafts to Zoroastrianism but it was very progressive religion. If you require scientific journals for more proof I'm sure Google scholar has some articles, but that up to you to validate my points. Also what I meant by "Foundations" is they at least acknowledged the existence of planets besides earth. Well, all of those links only seem to mention scripture writings, etc. that said certain stuff which science later supported. I never argued this. I argued that religion never proved these concepts. My beef was not over science finding support for things religion never hypothesized. My beef was over the statement that science found support for things religion already proved without a shadow of a doubt. How did religion prove these things without a shadow of a doubt? Acknowledging the potential existence of planets beside the earth does not mean they proved it for the whole world to see. They said something that science later supported. Science did not support something they already proved (by which I mean demonstrated to the whole world that it was a sure thing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRussianRocket. Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Lol, don't try churning something controversial for no reason. You know as well as I do that these religions never looked for scientific proof. If proof is what you want I doubt you'll get it in your context. Scientific proof/evidence wasn't even around then so if you keep regurgitating that, it won't get any of us anywhere. Correct hypothesis? Yea, if that works in your words. How did they prove this without a shadow of doubt? Well they had the light of God in them which I don't want to go into cause that's be something not productive and in the Sikhism pov from which I've studied as well as others but talking strictly Sikhism, everything "hypothesized" is what science verified as true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsflash Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 You know as well as I do that these religions never looked for scientific proof. If proof is what you want I doubt you'll get it in your context. Scientific proof/evidence wasn't even around then so if you keep regurgitating that, it won't get any of us anywhere. Correct hypothesis? Yea, if that works in your words. How did they prove this without a shadow of doubt? Well they had the light of God in them which I don't want to go into cause that's be something not productive and in the Sikhism pov from which I've studied as well as others but talking strictly Sikhism, everything "hypothesized" is what science verified as true. Again, scientific proof is an oxymoron. The scientific method as we know it today was not around back then, yes... but that does not matter. I had a beef with a statement that said religion proved what science has supported. You agreed. So I asked, how? You are now saying by proof, you mean made a correct hypothesis. Okay. I do not take offense to the AllEyez original statement if it meant, "Science is supporting hypotheses that religions made a long time ago." I took it to mean, "Science is supporting hypotheses that religion demonstrated as being 100% certain." You've gone off on a tangent. I'm not here to debate the validity of religion (although I feel like I'm being dragged into it). I was here to debate the validity that religion already demonstrate things to a 100% certainty that science is now supporting. I'm of Sikh ancestry too btw. I'm not very religious, but I'm religious enough to put Sikh on a census form. I can tell you personally that not everything hypothesized in the religion has been supported by science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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