[Rumour] Tyler Johnson Being Shopped (Eklund)

[VIC_CITY]

56 minutes ago, Provost said:

 

You are going to such great lengths to make ridiculous arguments against this player.

Great lengths? I'm just saying I take players at face value. When they arent in the lineup, they don't provide any value. That goes for anyone, not just Johnson.

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, VIC_CITY said:

If a player scored 40 points in 40 games but then missed half the year due to injuries. Should they be paid as if they were 80 point scorers? 

 

I've never been a fan of "points per game". Mainly because it's only ever used in arguments supporting players that miss a lot games. What you score is what you score and if you can't stay healthy, it's unfortunate, but that's how it goes.

Okay same argument but with the 44 points a season as you mentioned (if you want to conveniently omit his 72 point season, but include his worst). The 6 points a season difference from the PPG argument doesn't take away from what I said. Or you could look at his past 5 seasons and he averages 51 points a season (consistent average in his career so far). Or you could look at his worst offensive year and notice that their leading scorer had 66 points, so the entire team's offense was down. No matter how you slice it, 5 million is a decent value for what he provides as a 2C especially considering he provides more than just points.

[VIC_CITY]

1 hour ago, N7Nucks said:

No, but at the same time you wouldn't pay him as a 40 point guy either. Especially when his value goes beyond just points. Factor in his playoff pedigree, defensively above average, fast, 27 years old. 

You also have to ask - is Horvat and Johnson a legit 1-2? Or if you actually think Pettersson will play C, do you really wanna pay TJ $5M to play 3C? 

 

Unless a trade can be worked out with Sutter going back, I just don't see the fit myself.

[JeremyCuddles]

4 minutes ago, VIC_CITY said:

You also have to ask - is Horvat and Johnson a legit 1-2? Or if you actually think Pettersson will play C, do you really wanna pay TJ $5M to play 3C? 

 

Unless a trade can be worked out with Sutter going back, I just don't see the fit myself.

Johnson doesn't seem to be a true center. At least his faceoffs taken don't seem to suggest that. Bo took like 1300 faceoffs, Johnson took like 700. Bo played roughly 20 fewer games as well. My thinking is that Pettersson and Johnson could swap off taking faceoffs depending on which side the faceoff is on. Johnson being right handed can take faceoffs on his strong side, Pettersson can take faceoffs on his since his strong side is the opposite of Johnson's. 5 mil for a 3rd liner isn't too bad. Since the way teams are trending line numbers don't mean as much. 3rd liners be playing anywhere from 12-20 minutes, get special teams time, etc.

[VIC_CITY]

19 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Okay same argument but with the 44 points a season as you mentioned (if you want to conveniently omit his 72 point season, but include his worst). The 6 points a season difference from the PPG argument doesn't take away from what I said. Or you could look at his past 5 seasons and he averages 51 points a season (consistent average in his career so far). Or you could look at his worst offensive year and notice that their leading scorer had 66 points, so the entire team's offense was down. No matter how you slice it, 5 million is a decent value for what he provides as a 2C especially considering he provides more than just points.

Personally, i don't see how what a player did 4+ years ago has to do with future projections. I'd even argue that what a player does 3 years ago has little impact on how he plays today. What's more relevant is how he played this year and last. Players fall off the face face of the earth every year. It's a young man's game. No one cares how many points you scored 4-5 years ago. Cody Hodgson scored 44 points 4 years ago. 

[theo5789]

5 minutes ago, VIC_CITY said:

You also have to ask - is Horvat and Johnson a legit 1-2? Or if you actually think Pettersson will play C, do you really wanna pay TJ $5M to play 3C? 

 

Unless a trade can be worked out with Sutter going back, I just don't see the fit myself.

Horvat and Johnson may not be a league leading pair of centers, but it is far better than what we have currently. Pettersson may not be ready to play C just yet as Benning suggested and could take a few years. Johnson's contract will have a modified-NTC in 3 years where he submits a 20 team trade list, which could coincide with Pettersson being ready for center (or maybe even Gaudette). If either prospect is ready earlier, I'm sure Johnson could adjust to wing and maybe the cap continues to go up where it's the norm for 3Cs to be around 5 million dollars anyway.

 

1 minute ago, VIC_CITY said:

Personally, i don't see how what a player did 4+ years ago has to do with future projections. I'd even argue that what a player does 3 years ago has little impact on how he plays today. What's more relevant is how he played this year and last. Players fall off the face face of the earth every year. It's a young man's game. No one cares how many points you scored 4-5 years ago.  

50 points this past season and 45 points (in 66 games) the previous. Averages to about 48 points. Right along with his career average.

[Provost]

18 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Horvat and Johnson may not be a league leading pair of centers, but it is far better than what we have currently. Pettersson may not be ready to play C just yet as Benning suggested and could take a few years. Johnson's contract will have a modified-NTC in 3 years where he submits a 20 team trade list, which could coincide with Pettersson being ready for center (or maybe even Gaudette). If either prospect is ready earlier, I'm sure Johnson could adjust to wing and maybe the cap continues to go up where it's the norm for 3Cs to be around 5 million dollars anyway.

 

50 points this past season and 45 points (in 66 games) the previous. Averages to about 48 points. Right along with his career average.

 

Johnson has been playing the wing since being supplanted by Pointe as 2C.  He is too good to play for one of the best rosters in the league to have him on the 3rd line.  They just happen to have two centres better than the calibre of Horvat and Johnson.

 

If we got lucky enough to have Petterson supplant Johnson, he still makes an excellent winger who could take draws on his strong side and can slot in during injuries.  If it took Petterson two years to make that transition or couldn’t make it at all, we would still be covered.

 

$5 million with an $80 million cap is pretty cheap for a legit top 6 centre or even winger.  $80 million divided by 23 roster spots is about $3.5 per player.

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, N7Nucks said:

Johnson doesn't seem to be a true center. At least his faceoffs taken don't seem to suggest that. Bo took like 1300 faceoffs, Johnson took like 700. Bo played roughly 20 fewer games as well. My thinking is that Pettersson and Johnson could swap off taking faceoffs depending on which side the faceoff is on. Johnson being right handed can take faceoffs on his strong side, Pettersson can take faceoffs on his since his strong side is the opposite of Johnson's. 5 mil for a 3rd liner isn't too bad. Since the way teams are trending line numbers don't mean as much. 3rd liners be playing anywhere from 12-20 minutes, get special teams time, etc.

The only reason he took less draws is because of Point. He was either 2nd or led his team in faceoffs taken except for the past season with the breakout of Point. Johnson is a true center, but is very capable of playing the wing as well if need be.

[JeremyCuddles]

2 hours ago, theo5789 said:

The only reason he took less draws is because of Point. He was either 2nd or led his team in faceoffs taken except for the past season with the breakout of Point. Johnson is a true center, but is very capable of playing the wing as well if need be.

Even prior to last year he only takes roughly 1100 faceoffs, which is still roughly 200 under Bo who was injured for 18 games. Which i guess is still a fair bit. Bo doesn't take a ton of faceoffs either in comparison to other top 6 shutdown guys it seems. Barkov and O'Reilly took 1800-2100 faceoffs last season. Of course that's a bit unfair to compare Bo and Johnson to Selke trophy contenders but still. Just a frame of reference for what the top dogs defensively are taking. Bo over a full season might be taking 1600 faceoffs. So all in all I think we are in agreement that Johnson is pretty versatile and can play anywhere in our top 6 and wouldn't be overpaid at 5 mil?

[theo5789]

7 hours ago, N7Nucks said:

Even prior to last year he only takes roughly 1100 faceoffs, which is still roughly 200 under Bo who was injured for 18 games. Which i guess is still a fair bit. Bo doesn't take a ton of faceoffs either in comparison to other top 6 shutdown guys it seems. Barkov and O'Reilly took 1800-2100 faceoffs last season. Of course that's a bit unfair to compare Bo and Johnson to Selke trophy contenders but still. Just a frame of reference for what the top dogs defensively are taking. Bo over a full season might be taking 1600 faceoffs. So all in all I think we are in agreement that Johnson is pretty versatile and can play anywhere in our top 6 and wouldn't be overpaid at 5 mil?

Teams deploy their players differently. Regardless of the numbers themselves, the fact that he's been top 2 in draws for his team indicates that he plays a lot of center. Perhaps Tampa have many players that can play center but are put on wing or have situational starts to spread out the faceoffs more than a team that lacks that depth. Just another reason why Johnson could be expendable with the depth they have everywhere and currently for cheaper. But yes there are some of us in agreement that Johnson would be an excellent top 6 option.

[86Viking]

20 hours ago, 70seven said:

Johnson would be a fantastic pickup for this team as currently constructed.  

 

#7

for

Tyler Johnson

Cal Foote

2019 1st

 

This is the only type of deal I want to see being made for that pick.   One with multiple solid pieces coming back, including a current roster need, a top prospect, and a replacement pick for 2019.

 

I think the main player of interest will be Wahlstrom for teams bidding on this pick.  He’ll be gone at 8 if he gets to Chicago imo. 

If other GMs look at him and see the 40 goal scorer with speed and size that most are projecting, that’s certainly worth ponying up for if that’s an organizational need.

 

that type of return will never come our way for the 7th pick

[VIC_CITY]

19 hours ago, theo5789 said:

Horvat and Johnson may not be a league leading pair of centers, but it is far better than what we have currently. Pettersson may not be ready to play C just yet as Benning suggested and could take a few years. Johnson's contract will have a modified-NTC in 3 years where he submits a 20 team trade list, which could coincide with Pettersson being ready for center (or maybe even Gaudette). If either prospect is ready earlier, I'm sure Johnson could adjust to wing and maybe the cap continues to go up where it's the norm for 3Cs to be around 5 million dollars anyway.

 

50 points this past season and 45 points (in 66 games) the previous. Averages to about 48 points. Right along with his career average.

Yes, our lineup with TJ is better than without TJ. However, within the next couple of years, he'd be our 3C. So we're likely looking at 4 of his remaining 6 years years left on his contract being paid out as a 3C and you can bet his production will start to drop once that happens. All of a sudden that $5M is looking pretty bad. I'd rather sign Bozak for 2 or 3 years. You'll be looking at comparible production without 6 years of term. Plus he wouldn't cost anything to acquire.

[theo5789]

26 minutes ago, VIC_CITY said:

Yes, our lineup with TJ is better than without TJ. However, within the next couple of years, he'd be our 3C. So we're likely looking at 4 of his remaining 6 years years left on his contract being paid out as a 3C and you can bet his production will start to drop once that happens. All of a sudden that $5M is looking pretty bad. I'd rather sign Bozak for 2 or 3 years. You'll be looking at comparible production without 6 years of term. Plus he wouldn't cost anything to acquire.

What makes you assume that in two year that he will be our 2C and how can you predict that his production will drop off for sure? Why can't it be assumed that with a bigger role with us, he could perhaps become a 60 point 2C for us? Or maybe Pettersson just isn't suited to be a C in the NHL? You don't like looking back a few years because it's all about what you have done for me lately, but you can predict a failure in the future with no evidence whatsoever?

 

The contract becomes a modified NTC in 3 years time and it's a 20 team trade list, so I'm sure we could find a taker if need be, but Johnson could also play the wing well if an up and coming center takes over. At least we would have a 2C locked up in case all doesn't go according to plan.

 

As for Bozak, his offensive production may be similar, but he doesn't PK at all. He is all offense and only produces as much as Johnson. Bozak is 32 and not 27 like Johnson, and if looking at only his recent couple of seasons, he's already dropped off in production (lower than Johnson) in a contract year where players usually play harder to try and earn a payout. The only advantage of Bozak is that he would be free and there's no garauntee that he would sign here unless we make a splash to lock him up which may not be worth it. Bozak is the lesser player and may get a similar contract offer as a UFA.

[70seven]

1 hour ago, Canuckster86 said:

that type of return will never come our way for the 7th pick

Exactly 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[VIC_CITY]

1 hour ago, theo5789 said:

What makes you assume that in two year that he will be our 2C and how can you predict that his production will drop off for sure? Why can't it be assumed that with a bigger role with us, he could perhaps become a 60 point 2C for us? Or maybe Pettersson just isn't suited to be a C in the NHL? You don't like looking back a few years because it's all about what you have done for me lately, but you can predict a failure in the future with no evidence whatsoever?

 

The contract becomes a modified NTC in 3 years time and it's a 20 team trade list, so I'm sure we could find a taker if need be, but Johnson could also play the wing well if an up and coming center takes over. At least we would have a 2C locked up in case all doesn't go according to plan.

 

As for Bozak, his offensive production may be similar, but he doesn't PK at all. He is all offense and only produces as much as Johnson. Bozak is 32 and not 27 like Johnson, and if looking at only his recent couple of seasons, he's already dropped off in production (lower than Johnson) in a contract year where players usually play harder to try and earn a payout. The only advantage of Bozak is that he would be free and there's no garauntee that he would sign here unless we make a splash to lock him up which may not be worth it. Bozak is the lesser player and may get a similar contract offer as a UFA.

I said he'd likely be our 3C 3 years from now because right now, his production is that of a bottom tier 2nd liner (51st in scoring amongst NHL centers this year, 57th last year) and he will likely start trending downwards as almost all players do when they turn 30. Also, he plays with much more talented linemates in TB than he would here. So the odds are heavily stacked against TJs stats improving both now and in 2-3 seasons from now, when history has shown that players start to decline. 

 

As for Bozak, he will likely decline as well and probably faster than TJ. But Bozak will be looking at a contract similar to Sam Gagner's. That's a whole lot easier to swallow. TJ will be better than Bozak but we have absolutely no need for 6 years of TJ. 

 

Also, how pathetic is this rebuild if TJ is still our 2C 3 years from now? No thanks.

 

[Provost]

46 minutes ago, VIC_CITY said:

I said he'd likely be our 3C 3 years from now because right now, his production is that of a bottom tier 2nd liner (51st in scoring amongst NHL centers this year, 57th last year) and he will likely start trending downwards as almost all players do when they turn 30. Also, he plays with much more talented linemates in TB than he would here. So the odds are heavily stacked against TJs stats improving both now and in 2-3 seasons from now, when history has shown that players start to decline. 

 

As for Bozak, he will likely decline as well and probably faster than TJ. But Bozak will be looking at a contract similar to Sam Gagner's. That's a whole lot easier to swallow. TJ will be better than Bozak but we have absolutely no need for 6 years of TJ. 

 

Also, how pathetic is this rebuild if TJ is still our 2C 3 years from now? No thanks.

 

You are just ludicrous instead of admitting you are just plain wrong.

 

In this thread you have argued:

 

- Johnson had a NTC and will never waive it for here (not true)

-  Johnson is a one-dimensional player who folds when the games get hard in the time playoffs (objectively not true)

- Johnson is probably on the outs form Tampa for refusing Yzerman’s instructions to pay attention to defense (not true, he has been voted for the Selke repeatedly and is their best defensive forward)

-  He would be our 3rd or 4th line C, even though he is currently in the top six for the odds on Stanley Cup favourite roster in 2019.

-  That he would be on our 3rd line even though his production even in his shortened two years beats literally every other single centre who will currently be suiting up for us next season and all forwards except for Boeser.

-  That only the productIon that can be considered excludes his history of great regular season performance and his terrific almost a point a game offensive numbers when out in a more offenscie role.

- that his output would be lower here because of less talented linemates while ignoring the fact he would get more minutes and premium ice time as our 2nd or 3rd best forward.

-  That $5 million is a bad contract for his output even though any centre better than him would cost us much more

-  That it would be sad and pathetic if our rebuild resulted in having a player like him... even though he is one of the best players on one of the best rosters in the league.

-  That you have the power to foretell the future... even though you can’t even get your head around the present or the past

 

You are welcome to live in a world where 50-70 point players aren’t welcome on our team and wouldn’t be any good... just don’t expect many of us to join you there. 

[VIC_CITY]

2 hours ago, Provost said:

You are just ludicrous instead of admitting you are just plain wrong.

 

In this thread you have argued:

 

- Johnson had a NTC and will never waive it for here (not true)

-  Johnson is a one-dimensional player who folds when the games get hard in the time playoffs (objectively not true)

- Johnson is probably on the outs form Tampa for refusing Yzerman’s instructions to pay attention to defense (not true, he has been voted for the Selke repeatedly and is their best defensive forward)

-  He would be our 3rd or 4th line C, even though he is currently in the top six for the odds on Stanley Cup favourite roster in 2019.

-  That he would be on our 3rd line even though his production even in his shortened two years beats literally every other single centre who will currently be suiting up for us next season and all forwards except for Boeser.

-  That only the productIon that can be considered excludes his history of great regular season performance and his terrific almost a point a game offensive numbers when out in a more offenscie role.

- that his output would be lower here because of less talented linemates while ignoring the fact he would get more minutes and premium ice time as our 2nd or 3rd best forward.

-  That $5 million is a bad contract for his output even though any centre better than him would cost us much more

-  That it would be sad and pathetic if our rebuild resulted in having a player like him... even though he is one of the best players on one of the best rosters in the league.

-  That you have the power to foretell the future... even though you can’t even get your head around the present or the past

 

You are welcome to live in a world where 50-70 point players aren’t welcome on our team and wouldn’t be any good... just don’t expect many of us to join you there. 

Wow. I don't even know where to start dude. I probably said about 25 % of that, but don't bother reading the previous comments or anything, continue your drunken rant. Or are you Tyler Johnson's biggest fan? Keep telling us about Johnson's stats from 4 years ago, we need to hear more of that. 

[Provost]

7 minutes ago, VIC_CITY said:

Wow. I don't even know where to start dude. I probably said about 25 % of that, but don't bother reading the previous comments or anything, continue your drunken rant. Or are you Tyler Johnson's biggest fan? Keep telling us about Johnson's stats from 4 years ago, we need to hear more of that. 

Go through your comments.

[theo5789]

3 hours ago, VIC_CITY said:

I said he'd likely be our 3C 3 years from now because right now, his production is that of a bottom tier 2nd liner (51st in scoring amongst NHL centers this year, 57th last year) and he will likely start trending downwards as almost all players do when they turn 30. Also, he plays with much more talented linemates in TB than he would here. So the odds are heavily stacked against TJs stats improving both now and in 2-3 seasons from now, when history has shown that players start to decline. 

 

As for Bozak, he will likely decline as well and probably faster than TJ. But Bozak will be looking at a contract similar to Sam Gagner's. That's a whole lot easier to swallow. TJ will be better than Bozak but we have absolutely no need for 6 years of TJ. 

 

Also, how pathetic is this rebuild if TJ is still our 2C 3 years from now? No thanks.

 

Johnson was tied for 49th last season amongst centers which puts him right around the middle of the pack amongst top 6 centers (the season before if you look at PPG, he was 45th, which shows his value when he is playing). Now consider this, Brayden Point has taken over some of his minutes. Johnson was getting likely 3rd line minutes and his TOI was bumped up because he was one of the main PKers. He gets 2nd unit PP time, so he isn't mooching off Kuch or Stamkos on the PP. So he is in a lesser offensive role with the emergence of Point, takes on a lot of the defensive responsibility and yet still puts up solid 2nd line numbers. The game goes beyond the final point total in each season to determine the value of a player.

 

If Johnson is not outplayed by someone 3 years from now, it either means he is continuing to excel in his role (and the team around him could be continuing to grow) or we are not developing a 2C to surpass him. The former means we continue to have an excellent 2C, the latter means something has gone wrong and it is not the fault of Johnson.

 

The beautiful thing about your crystal ball prediction that he will trend down once he's 30 is that we will get 3 excellent prime years out of him and right as his modified NTC kicks in. We can unload him while he still has value before his supposed decline as predicted.

 

Unfortunately you rather bring in the lesser player who is two years past your decline age of 30, who may be cheaper but during a time when we have loads of cap space. IMO Gagner isn't worth his contract and neither will Bozak if he signs the same deal.

 

I should also add that we need a center that can take off some of the defensive pressure to allow Bo to fully explore the offensive side to his game. This is something Johnson will allow and not Bozak. Johnson will allow us to move someone like Sutter when hopefully Gaudette is ready to replace him. Johnson has more playoff experience at 27 than Bozak at 32. Johnson has been part of Tampa's rebuild success while Bozak has been in the midst of TO's worst years and declining to the point where TO is becoming a playoff team and will just let him walk for nothing (red flag to me). The team is looking for mentorship and I'd much rather they be mentored by Johnson than Bozak based on their careers so far. The addition of Johnson will help with our rebuild much more than a one dimensional Bozak would.

[Provost]

42 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Johnson was tied for 49th last season amongst centers which puts him right around the middle of the pack amongst top 6 centers (the season before if you look at PPG, he was 45th, which shows his value when he is playing). Now consider this, Brayden Point has taken over some of his minutes. Johnson was getting likely 3rd line minutes and his TOI was bumped up because he was one of the main PKers. He gets 2nd unit PP time, so he isn't mooching off Kuch or Stamkos on the PP. So he is in a lesser offensive role with the emergence of Point, takes on a lot of the defensive responsibility and yet still puts up solid 2nd line numbers. The game goes beyond the final point total in each season to determine the value of a player.

 

If Johnson is not outplayed by someone 3 years from now, it either means he is continuing to excel in his role (and the team around him could be continuing to grow) or we are not developing a 2C to surpass him. The former means we continue to have an excellent 2C, the latter means something has gone wrong and it is not the fault of Johnson.

 

The beautiful thing about your crystal ball prediction that he will trend down once he's 30 is that we will get 3 excellent prime years out of him and right as his modified NTC kicks in. We can unload him while he still has value before his supposed decline as predicted.

 

Unfortunately you rather bring in the lesser player who is two years past your decline age of 30, who may be cheaper but during a time when we have loads of cap space. IMO Gagner isn't worth his contract and neither will Bozak if he signs the same deal.

 

I should also add that we need a center that can take off some of the defensive pressure to allow Bo to fully explore the offensive side to his game. This is something Johnson will allow and not Bozak. Johnson will allow us to move someone like Sutter when hopefully Gaudette is ready to replace him. Johnson has more playoff experience at 27 than Bozak at 32. Johnson has been part of Tampa's rebuild success while Bozak has been in the midst of TO's worst years and declining to the point where TO is becoming a playoff team and will just let him walk for nothing (red flag to me). The team is looking for mentorship and I'd much rather they be mentored by Johnson than Bozak based on their careers so far. The addition of Johnson will help with our rebuild much more than a one dimensional Bozak would.

I like you.

 

Responding to random nonsense with well thought out logic.