Benning's Window of Opportunity

[aGENT]

10 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

I really hope OJ can earn a spot out of camp, at least for the usual half dozen games given to prize prospects. 

I'd wager he'll spend 1-2 months in Utica to start the season, playing big minutes, in all situations and getting back up to speed after not playing a lot of actual hockey in the last calendar year.

 

Whether it's injuries or trades that get him up here after that...we wait and see.

 

Personally, I think Tanev's gone at some point this year, playoffs or otherwise. We'll see if that's this summer, fall or TDL (Gordie willing he's healthy).

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

It’s not just points.  He’s not terrible defensively either his knock is skating (although he’s one of the best backward skaters in his draft class).  THN doesn’t rank them, a group of ten pro scouts from separate NHL teams do that and they report the averages, I will take their word for it thank you.   I’m sure Benning would trade him for Bouchard in a heart beat too, but no way the Oilers would.  

 

I’m posting expert opinions with my own mixed in, I followed London to a certain degree, and make a road trips to watch Utica when I can and saw OJ play live twice this year.  Dahlen was great, OJ was good one game bad the next, Brisebois was better both games.  Small sample size no doubt but so is 18 AHL games too.   This Hughes vs Juolevi thing is what came up and I wanted to express my viewpoint, your welcome to your own too, anyone that says OJ was carrying Bouchard isn’t quite accurate but yes it helped him.   Would love to have both them on our team but Bouchard is a prime candidate of someone too good for juniors that would have benefited in the AHL instead draft plus one.

We've been through this before. I likewise found numerous 'expert opinions' for you (I believe in the recent draft thread IIRC, complete with links and quotes) that declared Bouchard overrated, unlikely to transfer his complete effectiveness to the NHL level (largely given his skating among other shortcomings) and his tendency to be lackadaisical and easily beat in his own end, with a 2nd pair upside at the NHL level. Opinions I happen to agree with. 

 

I never said 'carrying', he babysat him. He's the guy that allowed Bouchard to put up all that offense while he covered for him. It was a good complimentary pair and smart coaching to utilize them in that manner not dissimilar to Edler and Ehrhoff back in the day.

 

We don't need Bouchard. There's like 20+ other D prospects I'd rather have including even just from his draft year, any of Boqvist, Dobson, Smith or Miller. Likely add Sandin to that too.

[189lb enforcers?]

9 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I'd wager he'll spend 1-2 months in Utica to start the season, playing big minutes, in all situations and getting back up to speed after not playing a lot of actual hockey in the last calendar year.

 

Whether it's injuries or trades that get him up here after that...we wait and see.

 

Personally, I think Tanev's gone at some point this year, playoffs or otherwise. We'll see if that's this summer, fall or TDL (Gordie willing he's healthy).

Fairly safe wager there, sir, bordering on a certainty 

 

Tanev.

The days of him being worth a 1st + and a good prospect seem a long ways behind him. 

I can’t really see a team needing an injury-prone defensive Dman, an unphysical one at that. 

Any guess which team would be interested in a gamble on such a player, worth the return to Benning? 

 

[189lb enforcers?]

15 minutes ago, IBatch said:

It’s not just points.  He’s not terrible defensively either his knock is skating (although he’s one of the best backward skaters in his draft class).  THN doesn’t rank them, a group of ten pro scouts from separate NHL teams do that and they report the averages, I will take their word for it thank you.   I’m sure Benning would trade him for Bouchard in a heart beat too, but no way the Oilers would.  

 

I’m posting expert opinions with my own mixed in, I followed London to a certain degree, and make a road trips to watch Utica when I can and saw OJ play live twice this year.  Dahlen was great, OJ was good one game bad the next, Brisebois was better both games.  Small sample size no doubt but so is 18 AHL games too.   This Hughes vs Juolevi thing is what came up and I wanted to express my viewpoint, your welcome to your own too, anyone that says OJ was carrying Bouchard isn’t quite accurate but yes it helped him.   Would love to have both them on our team but Bouchard is a prime candidate of someone too good for juniors that would have benefited in the AHL instead draft plus one.

Last season I was pitching Demko plus (Hutton/Goldy/whatever) to pry EB out of Edmonton. 

 

I’d rather have OJ and EB here at the same time. 

 

 

 

[189lb enforcers?]

5 minutes ago, aGENT said:

We've been through this before. I likewise found numerous 'expert opinions' for you (I believe in the recent draft thread IIRC, complete with links and quotes) that declared Bouchard overrated, unlikely to transfer his complete effectiveness to the NHL level (largely given his skating among other shortcomings) and his tendency to be lackadaisical and easily beat in his own end, with a 2nd pair upside at the NHL level. Opinions I happen to agree with. 

 

I never said 'carrying', he babysat him. He's the guy that allowed Bouchard to put up all that offense while he covered for him. It was a good complimentary pair and smart coaching to utilize them in that manner not dissimilar to Edler and Ehrhoff back in the day.

 

We don't need Bouchard. There's like 20+ other D prospects I'd rather have including even just from his draft year, any of Boqvist, Dobson, Smith or Miller. Likely add Sandin to that too.

What do you see in EB’s immediate future with the Coils?

What does he project as, in your view? What kind of player and results do you expect? Any comparables? 

[aGENT]

Just now, 189lb enforcers? said:

Fairly safe wager there, sir, bordering on a certainty 

 

Tanev.

The days of him being worth a 1st + and a good prospect seem a long ways behind him. 

I can’t really see a team needing an injury-prone defensive Dman, an unphysical one at that. 

Any guess which team would be interested in a gamble on such a player, worth the return to Benning? 

 

A first on his own...not likely. Maybe if we retain and/or add a later pick etc.

 

And of course that would presume him playing a healthy chunk of games *fingers crossed*.

 

I'd imagine a team desperate for D (and playoff performing), particularly on the right side, particularly who excel in their own end and transitioning the puck would happily take him with 50% retention and some level of pr rated, mid season cap hit. Sounds a lot like TOR to me (which also happens to be Chris' home town). I'd wager other contenders would happily add him as well like say TBL after losing Stralman etc.

[IBatch]

2 minutes ago, aGENT said:

We've been through this before. I likewise found numerous 'expert opinions' for you (I believe in the recent draft thread IIRC, complete with links and quotes) that declared Bouchard overrated, unlikely to transfer his complete effectiveness to the NHL level (largely given his skating among other shortcomings) and his tendency to be lackadaisical and easily beat in his own end, with a 2nd pair upside at the NHL level. Opinions I happen to agree with. 

 

I never said 'carrying', he babysat him. He's the guy that allowed Bouchard to put up all that offense while he covered for him. It was a good complimentary pair and smart coaching to utilize them in that manner not dissimilar to Edler and Ehrhoff back in the day.

 

We don't need Bouchard. There's like 20+ other D prospects I'd rather have including even just from his draft year, any of Boqvist, Dobson, Smith or Miller. Likely add Sandin to that too.

Yeah I think we have.  I can find all sorts of bad press on OJ too, including SN ranking him in the top ten of worst draft busts the last ten years (JV is also in there).  And bad press on each of those guys you’ve listed.  And even our very own Hughes.  One hit away from the infirmary etc.   Tend to shy away from the negative stuff.  

 

Dont see the point in continuing this, like almost everyone else here I hope OJ exceeds and becomes the player we all hoped for in the beginning.  Whether he’s another  Pouilet or Vlasic 2.0 more offense time will tell.  

[aGENT]

Just now, 189lb enforcers? said:

What do you see in EB’s immediate future with the Coils?

What does he project as, in your view? What kind of player and results do you expect? Any comparables? 

Eventual 2nd pair, offensive D who will make his money on the PP. Likely starts off as sheltered, 3rd pair in EDM with PP time. Not good enough to be considered 1st pair/trusted for big minutes 5v5.

[aGENT]

10 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yeah I think we have.  I can find all sorts of bad press on OJ too, including SN ranking him in the top ten of worst draft busts the last ten years (JV is also in there).  And bad press on each of those guys you’ve listed.  And even our very own Hughes.  One hit away from the infirmary etc.   Tend to shy away from the negative stuff.  

 

Dont see the point in continuing this, like almost everyone else here I hope OJ exceeds and becomes the player we all hoped for in the beginning.  Whether he’s another  Pouilet or Vlasic 2.0 more offense time will tell.  

It wasn't 'bad press'. I'm not talking about tabloid grade 'one hit away' coverage (any player is 'one hit away'). These were honest scouting assessments of his strengths (passing, shot, PP etc) and weaknesses (skating, D play, lackadaisical, ability to translate to NHL etc). An eventual/likely 2nd pair offensive D is nothing to sneeze at! But let's stop overrating him as anything resembling a 'Makar' or 'Hughes' 'top 13' level talent.

 

Yes, the proof will be in the pudding.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by aGENT

[stawns]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

You honestly think he hasn’t earned a spot?  Or Boeser for that matter (experts felt he could have started a year earlier but Benning kept him down an extra year)?   He played well, five pro games with Schenn as his partner, earning his spot like everyone else, would have played more but thankfully he didn’t so we don’t have to protect him in the ED.  

 

This really wasn’t what we were discussing but it is interesting....is that why AG got a try out too (winning the Hobey Baker and showing he could be an AHL star had more to do with that) ?   My understanding is GMs treat their star prospects differently, as in letting them burn a year off their contracts when they can but not always. 

 

Bennings been heavily criticized for picking OJ over MT, but didn’t rush him and for good reason, because he wasn’t ready, wouldn’t matter if he was from the NCAA or not.   Personally I think the WJs skyrocketed his stock, without that performance or playing that tournament at all I’m not sure he’d have gone in the first round, at the start of the year he wasn’t in anyones radar for a top ten pick thats for sure.  Which goes back to the original discussion, one player is starting his NHL career as a 19 year old, the other can drink legally in any state now and is back training after a season ending injury.   At this point anyways it seems that Hughes is the better player and has more  upside ... doesn’t mean we should sleep on OJ, we all want him to excel,  but we won’t really know for sure for a few years ... like by the time Hughes is OJs current age. 

Can you explain how he did earn it?  I don't hold it against QH, he used his bargainibg power, leverage that OJ never had because he was a CHL player, to make sure he went straight to Van.  He played pretty well while he was there, but he certainly didn't earn that shot the way most prospects, from the JR ranks have to.  

 

He will, however, have to earn it this year.

[stawns]

51 minutes ago, IBatch said:

It’s not just points.  He’s not terrible defensively either his knock is skating (although he’s one of the best backward skaters in his draft class).  THN doesn’t rank them, a group of ten pro scouts from separate NHL teams do that and they report the averages, I will take their word for it thank you.   I’m sure Benning would trade him for Bouchard in a heart beat too, but no way the Oilers would.  

 

I’m posting expert opinions with my own mixed in, I followed London to a certain degree, and make a road trips to watch Utica when I can and saw OJ play live twice this year.  Dahlen was great, OJ was good one game bad the next, Brisebois was better both games.  Small sample size no doubt but so is 18 AHL games too.   This Hughes vs Juolevi thing is what came up and I wanted to express my viewpoint, your welcome to your own too, anyone that says OJ was carrying Bouchard isn’t quite accurate but yes it helped him.   Would love to have both them on our team but Bouchard is a prime candidate of someone too good for juniors that would have benefited in the AHL instead draft plus one.

His knock is skating?

[189lb enforcers?]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

Can you explain how he did earn it?  I don't hold it against QH, he used his bargainibg power, leverage that OJ never had because he was a CHL player, to make sure he went straight to Van.  He played pretty well while he was there, but he certainly didn't earn that shot the way most prospects, from the JR ranks have to.  

 

He will, however, have to earn it this year.

About the same way Bure did?

or BB did, etc.

 

what a point to split hairs on, anyways. 

[stawns]

1 hour ago, Smashian Kassian said:

Quinn Hughes has already shown he can contribute in the NHL, OJ hasnt even played so Id say Q has proved more.

 

Im a Juolevi supporter, but he was never as good a prospect as Hughes in the first place, before the injuries. I dont know why you'd be expecting him to be of the same level.

 

Based on what?  I'd say OJ's resume is every bit as legit as QH.  Just so happened he was in the CHL and had no leverage to jump straight to the NHL.  Injuries are the only reason he's not a full time nhl'er

[aGENT]

4 minutes ago, stawns said:

Based on what?  I'd say OJ's resume is every bit as legit as QH.  Just so happened he was in the CHL and had no leverage to jump straight to the NHL.  Injuries are the only reason he's not a full time nhl'er

Hughes is better offensively and more easily sheltered in an offensive role, has a large part to do with it. And his skating is ELITE, which helps get him out of (or avoid altogether) a lot of dangerous situations.

 

Juolevi, while certainly capable in many ways, has neither of those 'advantages'.

Edited July 18, 2019 by aGENT

[189lb enforcers?]

Just now, aGENT said:

Hughes is more easily sheltered in an offensive role, has a large part to do with it. And his skating is ELITE, which helps get him out of (or avoid altogether) a lot of dangerous situations.

 

Juolevi, while certainly capable in many ways, has neither of those 'advantages'.

Even though OJ was ‘tearing up’ the AHL at a ‘ppg pace’, he wasn’t brought up to the NHL. His +/- may have had something to do with that... 

[stawns]

9 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Hughes is better offensively and more easily sheltered in an offensive role, has a large part to do with it. And his skating is ELITE, which helps get him out of (or avoid altogether) a lot of dangerous situations.

 

Juolevi, while certainly capable in many ways, has neither of those 'advantages'.

You'll get no argument from me about QH abilities, I'm thrilled he's in Van.  That said, I think the fact that his particular skill set fills a void in the dcorp reinforces the argument that he pretty much got a free pass into the lineup.  I have no doubt QH will earn his keep in Van, but I don't agree he's automatically going to get a better player than OJ.

[aGENT]

7 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Even though OJ was ‘tearing up’ the AHL at a ‘ppg pace’, he wasn’t brought up to the NHL. His +/- may have had something to do with that... 

I think he easily would have seen time here last year if not for his injury.

 

He also has history of an 'adaption period' when he goes to a new level of play. That, combined with his knee issues, were likely what contributed to his 'ok' play (and that -12). His point production in those circumstances, was positive though! 

 

If he can stay healthy, I'd wager he'll get past the adaption period (as he did in Finland) and become much better at the AHL level this year. Then we'll likely get to watch it all over again when he comes up to the NHL!  And I'm sure CDC and local media etc will all freak out about his 'struggles' for the first month or so that he's up 

[IBatch]

47 minutes ago, aGENT said:

It wasn't 'bad press'. I'm not talking about tabloid grade 'one hit away' coverage (any player is 'one hit away'). These were honest scouting assessments of his strengths (passing, shot, PP etc) and weaknesses (skating, D play, lackadaisical, ability to translate to NHL etc). An eventual/likely 2nd pair offensive D is nothing to sneeze at! But let's stop overrating him as anything resembling a 'Makar' or 'Hughes' 'top 13' level talent.

 

Yes, the proof will be in the pudding.

 

 

It’s not me doing that, if you don’t like it send the complaints to ten different NHL scouts from ten different teams.   Hardly tabloid stuff.  GMs appreciate and use THNs Future Watch and Draft Prospects final Rankings every year, you can see them on the their desks at the draft.  

[aGENT]

4 minutes ago, stawns said:

You'll get no argument from me about QH abilities, I'm thrilled he's in Van.  That said, I think the fact that his particular skill set fills a void in the dcorp reinforces the argument that he pretty much got a free pass into the lineup.  I have no doubt QH will earn his keep in Van, but I don't agree he's automatically going to get a better player than OJ.

Not sure I agree with 'free pass'. He's an ELITE skater, with what looks to be an elite offensive skill set. That is both something currently more needed on the team and something easier 'hidden' or sheltered than what Juolevi is, or projects to be.

 

I'm not declaring one or the other better either

[aGENT]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

It’s not me doing that, if you don’t like it send the complaints to ten different NHL scouts from ten different teams.   Hardly tabloid stuff.  GMs appreciate and use THNs Future Watch and Draft Prospects final Rankings every year, you can see them on the their desks at the draft.  

Read it again, I wasn't declaring THN 'tabloid'.

 

If you don't like it, feel free to send your complaints to the scouts and experts who agree with me