Drafting/Trades/Signings when you do each (Discussion)

[J.I.A.H.N]

Good morning all

 

I was reminded of this concept that Benning did not understand, just the other day with LA's trade of their 2022 1st(19th OA) + Brock Faber

Faber was a very good prospect and probably their 2nd or 3rd best prospect, but would be the number 1 prospect on the Canuck prospect list.

Hockey writers had him at the 40th best prospect not in the NHL and Rathbone the 50Th? (Somewhere in there, if memory serves me)

But the point remains that LA used a very highly touted prospect along with their 2022-1st to get their man (Fiala, who is a very good offensive player)

 

So, lets get started with this discussion.............

 

IMO, when drafting in a rebuilding team, you attempt to pick as high up as possible every year, giving you the best rated pick possible. This should be done by trading up, when possible or tanking if near the bottom, when the playoffs are not a possibility. It is very important to have a good handle where you are compared to other teams, and if you are actually in this phase.

IMO, you do not trade away picks in this phase for players............ever! (Your Amateur Scouting Department is very important in this phase)

 

In this phase, while your picks are still in the juniors/NCAA/Europe, as well as the first years on the farm, your focus should not be on climbing the ladder, therefore, signing UFA's to climb and be competitive is counter productive. In fact, a rebuilding team should within reason trade away vets that can be easily replaced in free agency, or are acquired to lower another teams cap.

(always keeping the target in mind........do not move up the ladder! You are rebuilding!)

 

In this 5 year phase you will have 5 high 1st round picks, 5 high 2nd round picks, and 5 high 3rd round picks, in addition to any 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks you acquire through trading of veterans at the TDL, when the value is highest, and through Cap strapped teams, where you should be able to acquire short term contracts at a very good price, and where you can flip these players for picks, at (again) the TDL!

 

In rebuilding phase, it is all about picks!  

 

Now, once you have acquired you prospects through the draft and have a pretty good idea of who will be a 1st/2nd/and 3rd line players, and they have been developed, an evaluation of your team should be done, and you should start the 2nd phase of your re-building plan, where you add good veterans through trade. Now, if you have done your job properly, you will now have an abundance of young talent, and some future picks in which which to use to supplement or fill in the holes on your top 2 lines, top 2 defensive pairings. 

 

Because you are using prospects and picks in this phase, you are trading with teams, that have Cap issues, and are also trying to fill in gaps in their line-ups. If you are trading extra high end assets (2022-1st and Faber) you should expect a very good return, and should always be players that can fill in those 1st and 2nd pairings and line holes.  An exception could be made for an above average 3rd line center, but not 3rd line wingers, which are cheap and a dime a dozen in UFA.

 

Finally,  UFA status signing can be any type of player, if Cap permits, but if a GM has done his job properly, those UFA signing should be for your 3rd and 4th lines, and not your 3rd and 4th pairing. An argument can be made for a player to be added that you have tried to obtain through draft and trade, and can not. Character is a important, when signing these type players, and they should fill a particular void and need.

 

Finally, your rebuild is over, and you have filled the holes with veterans, you have filled your top positions with young up and coming stars, and your Cap should still be low, with the expectation that your young and up and coming stars are going to demand those dollars. Not your old aging veterans.

 

Now, your rebuilding is done, and your team needs to mature. This is done by 2 things.........years in the league, and the veterans you trade and sign, who have been brought in for talent and character or both. With years in the league (Time) and character (Veterans), your team should develop into a strong contending team. But this is not done over night, and trying to miss a step/phase will almost certainly end in failure and a redo.

 

No, I am not a GM, I don't want to be a GM, and I could never be a GM, but as a grey tooth veteran fan, I have seen the successes and the failures. Benning and Aqualini tried to skip steps and failed. Colorado, NY Rangers, Carolina, Florida, grizzly old Tampa, and now young upstart LA, have not.

 

Now, JR and PA, have to step back and redo, some of the steps, and although, the team looks to be able to compete, has huge holes, which need to be address, through trades and drafting. This is the step back Jimmy Rutherford was talking about. 

 

* When I speak of character, I speak of intangibles, such as game preparation, drive, dedication, and will..............yes acquired veterans must have skill, but they must have these other qualities in spades, as they are the teachers of the younger more skilled players.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by J.I.A.H.N

[Alflives]

Nice breakdown of a proper rebuild.  Benning even said himself they operated “day to day”.  Gillis wanted to rebuild and was moved out.  Then Linden saw the same, and he was moved out.  I only hope our owner allows JR/Allvin to do what they see is best, even if it means moving back a couple steps.  (I doubt it though) 

[JM_]

So how do you fix an improper rebuild?

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, JM_ said:

So how do you fix an improper rebuild?

[Rick Blight]

Jan, I have no idea of what the definition of a re-building team is these days but aren't there about 20 or so of them every year? Given that number, and assuming they all buy into your plan, how the heck does everyone get the 5 high draft picks in each round over a 5 year period? Again, this strategy would mean 20 teams would never trade away picks so where would these extra picks come from? You would have 20 teams all looking to add picks from 12 teams?

 

Veteran players and some younger players on these re-building teams would all request trades if management proclaims they are throwing the towel in for 5 years. I assume you consider the Canucks to be a re-building team so would you think Hughes, Pettersson, Boeser, Demko, Horvat, Podkolzin, Hoglander would all be okay with this strategy being employed by Rutherford? My bet is that every one of them would request a trade.......would you be okay with that to start your 5 year plan?

 

I understand the concept and would certainly agree with some of what you say but I don't think the process is anywhere close to being this clean. I guess it could be though if you were the only team employing this strategy

[Crabcakes]

Pretty much.  Are we watching Yzerman in Detroit?  He knows how.  

 

What did Sakic do in Colorado when they were scuffling in 2017?  He took a step back when he traded Duchene but he was patient, patient, patent all the way.  This is key.  FWIW the trade was made on Nov 7, 2017.

 

The thing with the Canucks is that as an organization, they were indecisive and didn't actually rebuild when they should have.  They tried to prolong their time at the top and it failed.  Staying competitive and slowly replacing players through the draft is a muggs game.  Doesn't work.  And trying to stay at the top cost them too many assets and watered down their efforts at an actual rebuild which was attempted in 2017.

[J.I.A.H.N]

4 minutes ago, Rick Blight said:

Jan, I have no idea of what the definition of a re-building team is these days but aren't there about 20 or so of them every year? Given that number, and assuming they all buy into your plan, how the heck does everyone get the 5 high draft picks in each round over a 5 year period? Again, this strategy would mean 20 teams would never trade away picks so where would these extra picks come from? You would have 20 teams all looking to add picks from 12 teams?

 

Veteran players and some younger players on these re-building teams would all request trades if management proclaims they are throwing the towel in for 5 years. I assume you consider the Canucks to be a re-building team so would you think Hughes, Pettersson, Boeser, Demko, Horvat, Podkolzin, Hoglander would all be okay with this strategy being employed by Rutherford? My bet is that every one of them would request a trade.......would you be okay with that to start your 5 year plan?

 

I understand the concept and would certainly agree with some of what you say but I don't think the process is anywhere close to being this clean. I guess it could be though if you were the only team employing this strategy

Fair enough Rick

 

I think that there are certainly different phases in which all teams are in..........some are beginning, some are just finishing off, some are re-tooling, and some are there.

 

It is true, and I do not profess it is an exact science, and there are certainly failures amongst those teams, but I think it is a general road map. I picked LA for several different reasons, as they just made this trade for Fiala, but also traded away fan favorite Tyler Toffoli to the Canucks several years ago. I remember thinking, we are getting one hell of a player, and yet there was little outrage from LA in trading him. At that time I wondered if that was because they are as a fan base, not as invested, but they are, but just seen it as part of their rebuild, and looked it much more like a fact of life, and very similar NFL and American baseball rebuilds, where stars go in and out all the time.

 

IMO, our trap here is our owner is a fan, and is totally invested..............good, and bad! As where I see the Canucks, It is much like having really big calf muscles and no thigh muscle.........really out of balance!

 

IMO, we are ultra strong down the middle, and pretty strong down the LHD, and strong down the RW...............Goalie, we are strong but not deep, so I think we need to move from one to get at another.............aka RHD.............I do not think this is a shock to anyone.............

 

What the problem is, we have no Cap to do anything with , and when you look down the road, we are kind of handcuffed too! So again, we need to move things around........

 

How? I see it as been discussed at nauseum...........trade a Center or a RWer for RHD help. But I think it goes deeper, as we have other holes, and again, not much cap. 

 

I mention all the obvious, because it is the reason why JR says we need to step back..........we are lacking on the parent club, with absolutely no relief on the farm, outside moving Rathbone for a readjustment to prospects. But further than that, when JR looks at the long range planning, he sees no depth on the farm, which he is crazily trying to address with all those recent signings. But that alone will not fix the problems, and IMO, JR will go for a Miller/Horvat trade address our current problem on RHD, but also try and start to address our prospect problem. which will not be done over night.

 

So, it all comes down to the "BIG" trade, which I am not certain is Miller, although the front runner..............so lets go for that one!

 

Miller to ? for a Fiala type trade, with additional asset...............2022-1st, top prospect and a RHD...........it may include other assets, but if that is who he trades, that is what he wants..................

 

Boeser/Garland to ???? My gut says Boeser, my heart hope Garland. I am hoping its Garland for a Grans + 2022-2nd type deal...not saying that is it, but we will see............

 

Now that is 2 trades, that bring in 4 assets..................2 for 4..........good deal, as it is really 2 for 6, as you can use some of the cap to buy 2 UFA's if he wants to do that!

 

Now if it is

Miller and Boeser, that is around 11 million in Cap gone (this would be a bigger cap hit in one year 16 Million because both Boeser and Miller contracts are up)

Miller and Garland is around the 11 million mark too

Horvat and Boeser is around 12 million.................................this one could also be looked at as a 113/14 million cost within a year.

Horvat and garland is around the 11 million mark

 

Why do I include Horvat...........3 reasons...........one JR say we will step back, JR says someone we like, and Miller has more character, which JR has talked about, and we can not afford 3 high end centers, and no cap..........

 

IMO.......................something big will happen, and I will be shocked if it is al veterans in return...................4th reason is JR has identified our Prospect list as a concern....

 

I find it amazing how interconnected it all is, and how you can't talk about one thing without talking about the other...........

 

[J.I.A.H.N]

1 hour ago, JM_ said:

So how do you fix an improper rebuild?

I refer you, kind sir, to my reply to Rick Blight (Loved that guy!) I think it is all addressed there.............

 

On another related comment, that sorta of does relate to all this............................................................

 

LA signs Fiala.......................great move, but one that is sort of not getting enough fan fare is..............the Nick Paul signing in Tampa

 

And there you see it again.........Nick Paul was a hammer all series long, despite his injury......he certainly showed his value, not only with his skill, but in his aggressive play, and absolutely no quit attitude..........IMO, Tampa either wanted him long term before the trade, or he quickly show his value.............another great Tampa move! In 2 words!...............

 

Great GMing!

[JM_]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

[JM_]

1 hour ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

I refer you, kind sir, to my reply to Rick Blight (Loved that guy!) I think it is all addressed there.............

 

On another related comment, that sorta of does relate to all this............................................................

 

LA signs Fiala.......................great move, but one that is sort of not getting enough fan fare is..............the Nick Paul signing in Tampa

 

And there you see it again.........Nick Paul was a hammer all series long, despite his injury......he certainly showed his value, not only with his skill, but in his aggressive play, and absolutely no quit attitude..........IMO, Tampa either wanted him long term before the trade, or he quickly show his value.............another great Tampa move! In 2 words!...............

 

Great GMing!

I think we're going to have to get aggressive in landing that 3C.... I still think offer sheeting Roy from Vegas is worth the risk. 

[Alflives]

51 minutes ago, JM_ said:

I think we're going to have to get aggressive in landing that 3C.... I still think offer sheeting Roy from Vegas is worth the risk. 

Here’s aggressive.

Miller to Rags for Lafrenierre 

Lafrenierre to Habs for 1OA

JR drafts ... Shane Wright.  He plays 3C.