Those who did not want a GM change.

[MeanSeanBean]

Just now, AnthonyG said:

Tell me what valuable assets did we gain from drafting through 2007-2013? Gaunce? Jensen? Schroeder? 

I'm actually good on this conversation. I hate seeing multiple replies from you every time I open my phone... I didn't realize you were the same guy from the other night until I saw the spastic way you try to make arguments.

[AnthonyG]

9 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

I'm actually good on this conversation. I hate seeing multiple replies from you every time I open my phone... I didn't realize you were the same guy from the other night until I saw the spastic way you try to make arguments.

I hate seeing thoughtless, blind replies with zero facts to back up your “argument” I pointed out how NYR and COL rebuilt and you cant handle that they had far more at their disposal, BECAUSE OF PREVIOUS YEARS OF DRAFTING. IT HAS AN IMPACT ON YOUR FUTURE. Figure it out dude. 5-9 years of development, gets you the returns you need to rebuild. 12+ years in the league does not.

 

this is what the draft is about, THE. FU….TURE… if there is nothing thats been drafted, theres nothing in your future. Which is exactly what the problem was when Benning walked in, nothing to help fast track the rebuild.

 

Anyways I’m happy to go separate ways here. Beating a dead horse is exhausting.

[MaxVerstappen33]

31 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

Man, you'll really die on that hill with Benning eh? Agree to disagree. I don't agree with much of what you tried to argue there. Bennings rebuild attempt failed, and this team is the result of that.

 

If Bennings rebuild worked we would have a good team, or a team with a ton of potential in prospects and capspace.  Instead, we have neither.

Would you have fired Benning if the only option to replace him was Jim Rutherford and his lackey clique ? 

[MeanSeanBean]

Just now, MaxVerstappen33 said:

Would you have fired Benning if the only option to replace him was Jim Rutherford and his lackey clique ? 

They weren't the only option. But 100%. Haven't been a fan of Alvin yet, but Benning had more then enough time to show he could right this ship. Having one of the worst and most expensive D cores in the league, no cap space, no prospects, and a mediocre team on ice proved he simply could not.

[MaxVerstappen33]

2 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

They weren't the only option. But 100%. Haven't been a fan of Alvin yet, but Benning had more then enough time to show he could right this ship. Having one of the worst and most expensive D cores in the league, no cap space, no prospects, and a mediocre team on ice proved he simply could not.

Gillis and Benning were good at some things. Jim Rutherford is good at nothing. 

[MeanSeanBean]

2 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

Gillis and Benning were good at some things. Jim Rutherford is good at nothing. 

Well that's simply not true. 

[AnthonyG]

3 hours ago, DSVII said:

1. You're letting the Jersey thing really get to you eh? We're not that special when it comes to being rowdy fanbases. Boston (ask Joe thornton how low pressure it felt when he wasn't performing), Philly, Chicago i'd reckon can give us a run for our money, especially when they're bad.

 

2. We literally just saw Tkachuk get traded for a Top 4 RHD and a Top 10 winger, so yes, you can still capitalize on it to address your other needs. Drafting BPA is all about maximizing value over positional needs. We've seen how that can come back to bite teams (Montreal -> Kotkaniemi, Canucks -> Juolevi)

 

I'll take Vilardi + Tkachuk + Ehlers/Nylander over Petey + OJ + Jake, sure.

 

I'll give Benning credit for Petey (it was down to Petey/Vilardi for me personally) but drafting isn't the main job of a GM. It's assembling the team to compete. 

 

3. Hindsight is 20/20, but GMs are paid millions to practice foresight and see where the game and their teams are trending and to plan accordingly.

 

 

That's why I don't give Benning crap for McCann over Pastranak (despite him having knowledge of Boston's draft board). That really was an outlier pick and 24 other teams missed out on him. And we all know that later picks are usually controlled by the scouting staff (still their responsibility)

 

4. Riddle me this, why does Benning get credit for Boston as a scouting guru when their cup core was put together by Jeff Gorton and his predecessors? (Rask, Chara, Bergeron, Marchand) How come you're giving him scouting credit when it wasn't earned?

 

5. Why is Jim Benning credited as a scouting savant when he's in a secondary/background role but you guys keep casually dismissing the work of Gradin and Brackett?

 

6. Having a Kapanen at the 20th spot of a draft is a win, not sure what you're trying to paint here. No one is expecting perfection, but you're expected to hit on an NHL player.

 

 I didn't subscribe to Button's list, but I will admit to using the canucksarmy and hockey news more during that time. It was really this article that convinced me against that draft pick. Plus there were talks about him being a tools but no toolbox kinda guy. I would have erred on the side of skill. 

Again, this isn't hindsight. https://canucksarmy.com/news/jake-virtanen-is-good-so-don-t-draft-him

 

7. Oh definitely the owner's fault, it's not 100% on JB. But Benning was convinced he could turn it around quickly. He failed.  Again, it's the GM's job to sell the vision to the owner. Linden as our Pres too had the right idea, but he was canned after.

 

I would say the part where JB should be accountable for, was not backing up Linden when it counted. 

 

8A. Benning however, botched us long term with his trading away draft capital and long term contracts.

8B. Markstrom, Horvat, Tanev (24 years old), Kassian, Hansen, Prime Edler (28 yrs old).

8C. Again with the 'inherited nothing' argument. 

 

9. The roster was a 100 pt team that had tradeable value, as evidenced by the later trades of Burrows/Bieksa/Garrison, Benning just chose not to move on from the assets. In fact, this 'no value' roster has still outperformed any of the subsequent teams Benning put together after the Gillis pieces left, despite being coached by 1-2-3-4 Willie.

Also, keep in mind, in his first offseasons, Benning was able to deploy ~$24 mil in cap space with the acquisitions of Miller/Vrbata/Sutter/Sbisa/Dorsett/Prust. Having the flexibility to make moves amounting to 30% of your cap is a great asset regardless of the situation your team is in.

Benning inherited a team that was 10th in power rankings in 2014. That's not too shabby considering the were two seasons removed from a president's trophy.

You can't sit here with a straight face as a hockey fan and tell me that a playoff team that is ranked top 10 in power rankings has no tradeable assets.

So in summary Benning started off with:

• A 100+ point playoff team with tradeable assets. (Sedins aside)
• The 6th overall pick (which became Jake Virtanen)
• 10. A lower ranked prospect pool yes, but still had names likeBrandon Gaunce, Eddie Lack, Frankie Corrado, Jordan subban Nicklas Jensen and Shinkaruk (*these guys had value at the time that could have been used in a trade)
• A 1G (marky), 1 RHD (Tanev), 1 LHD (Edler), Future Captain and 2C in Horvat, Kassian (his stock was still high back then)
• A tradeable 2C in Kesler that even with the restricted teams list, had assets available that were much better than Sbisa which Benning ultimately valued above a prospect like Shea Theodore or a push for the 10OA (a pro scouting error)
• 11. A farm system that was built from the ground up (Gillis never had control over player deployment and development with the Chicago wolves. The farm system was set up for Benning which he never filled)
• ~$24 million in cap space to deploy after trading Kes (~30% of the cap), in a salary cap world where we see 1 year/ $6 mil cap dumps moved for a 1st this is significant

 

12. The difference was though, he was able to overcome those draft misses with his trades and flexibility. Again, Benning can draft, he did well, but his warts outweigh that pro.

 

He's not the only one who does this, but our former GM was known for creating a lot of market inefficiencies with this trades  Pitts and Tampa can thank him for making their back to back cups possible. And straddling us with OEL and an empty farm system. 

 

13. So you'll forgive me if I'm not on my knees praising the guy for putting us into hockey purgatory for the next foreseeable future. Just hope this new group can navigate their way out of the salary crunch. 

 

 

 

1. How many of those fan bases tried to burn their city down.... twice?

 

2. Umm first off they let JG walk to UFA.... No complaints on that eh? But Tanev and Toffoli were bigger losses? Back to the main point though, its not like they went looking for a trade, Tkachuk wanted a trade out. They were pressured to make a deal. Good on them, they got a pretty good return.... But for how long will Huberdeau be a top player? Hes 29 and on a long term deal next year with a 10.5mil cap hit..... is this going to pay off for them???

 

3. The JT Miller trade, the Myers signing, the Toffoli trade... All were Foresight. After EP40's rookie year, it was clear that this team had some serious talent coming up. Boeser was looking great, Horvat was taking steps forward, Pettersson was a star player, we had Markstrom playing at a high level. We added players and we were having a pretty solid season. We stole JT Miller, we scored a top 4 RHD in Myers, something we desperately needed. You're telling me none of this was foresight when JB went and bent TBL over for JT? He saw the direction the team was heading and added. That is foresight.

 

4. His scouting credit in idk... Buffalo?? Miller, Gaustad, Pominville, Roy, Wideman, Paille, Ballard, Hejda, Macarthur,  Vanek, Stafford, Sekera - Only 3 1st rounders in that list of players. 

Was I giving him credit for Boston? Nope.

 

5. I never dismissed Gradin/Bracketts work. I clearly said, if you read anything, after the 2014 draft JB made changes to the scouting department. Meaning he knew there were issues and brought in a better scouting staff.

JUDD BRACKETT

Director of Amateur Scouting

Staff History

TEAM	POSITION	DATE SPAN	AGE SPAN	DURATION
Vancouver Canucks	Director of Amateur Scouting	Aug. 4, 2015 - Jun. 30, 2020		4 Years, 10 Months, 26 Days

 

 

 

Now on that very same note, you state JB is in a secondary role.... And the scouting work of Gradin and Brackett really deserves the credit. So does this mean JB was mis-informed on Virtanen and Juoelvi that you blame him for not taking Ehlers/Nylander/Tkachuk? Kinda confusing. One minute its Bennings fault, the next minute its all the work of the scouts. 

 

 

8 hours ago, DSVII said:

How Sakic and Benning approached rebuilding was night and day. 

 

And even if you want to give him credit for hitting on 1st round draft picks that were so high anyone with a hockey magazine could land a player. It's offset by missing out on Tkachuk and Ehlers/Nylander. The consensus BPAs.

Also, what was your thoughts on Sakic walking into COL with, ROR, Duchene, Landeskog and Mackinnon? versus Benning walking in with... Not really sure about Horvat (weak skater at the time)

 

 

6. My point is, our current GM and POHO, worked together in PIT and the talent and upside they saw in Kapanen was greater than Pastrnak. Both are RH RW.

So is that not a little concerning? Especially when you look back and see that they really havent drafted strong for quite awhile in PIT.. No excuses, other contenders/strong playoff teams have drafted well later in rounds. 

 

7. Whos selling the vision to who?? FA doesnt want a rebuild, so its his fault, but its Benning that failed to 1) draft and produce enough NHLers to replace the Twins, Bieksa, Burrows, Hansen, Hamhuis etc etc etc.... With 8 years of lagging behind development.

 

8A. So Benning botched us long term by trading 2 1sts? But 8 years of failed drafting had ZERO implications on the future? Can you please explain and make some sense about that? He's the only GM in the last 15 years to actually draft several NHL talented players. IDGAF about draft position. He found McCann and Boeser where MG found Schroeder and Shinkaruk. Dont give excuses. 

8B.

Tanev?

2012-13	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	38	2	5	7	10	4
2013-14	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	64	6	11	17	8	12
2014-15	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	70	2	18	20	12	8

Kassian??

2012-13	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	39	7	4	11	51	-7	4	0	0	0	4
2013-14	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	73	14	15	29	124	-4	--	--	--	--	--
2014-15	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	42	10	6	16	81	-5

Edler? 

2013-14

Vancouver Canucks

NHL

63

7

15

22

50

-39

Hansen?? 

2013-14	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	71	11	9	20	43	-9	--	--	--	--	--
2014-15	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	81	16	17	33	27	-6

Like do these kinda players really look like the type of players to net you mid to high firsts or high end prospects?..... Not likely. But

ROR

2011-12	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	81	18	37	55	12	-1	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Magnitogorsk Metallurg	KHL	12	5	5	10	2	6	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	29	6	14	20	4	-3	--	--	--	--	--
2013-14	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	80	28	36	64	2	-1	7	2	4	6	0
2014-15	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	82	17	38	55	12	-5

 

and 

2009-10	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	81	24	31	55	16	1	6	0	3	3	0
2010-11	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	80	27	40	67	33	-8	--	--	--	--	--
2011-12	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	58	14	14	28	8	-11	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Frolunda HC	SEL	19	4	10	14	12	10	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Ambri-Piotta	Swiss-A	4	2	3	5	2	2	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	47	17	26	43	12	-12	--	--	--	--	--
2013-14	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	71	23	47	70	19	8	2	0	3	3	2
2014-15	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	82	21	34	55	16	3	--	--	--	--	--
2015-16	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	76	30	29	59	24	-8	--	--	--	--	--
2016-17	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	77	18	23	41	12	-34	--	--	--	--	--
2017-18	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	14	4	6	10	4	1	--	--	--	--	--
2017-18	Ottawa Senators	NHL	68	23	26	49	14	-23

Duchene sure do.

 

8C. Sorry maybe didnt inherit "nothing" but sure didnt inherit much at all compared to what Sakic inheritted. Or Gorton in NY.

 

9. If you're talking about the 2014-15 team being a 100pt team.... That was Bennings team bud. He took them from 23rd to 8th in one offseason, through free agency. In fact those were actually pieces that Burke and Nonis left behind.... Not Gillis. They left those behind for Gillis to put pen to paper.... He should be thankful for Burke and Nonis' 1 good draft.

Burrows.. Bieksa... Kesler... Hansen....Edler... Etc.

 

Benning inheritted Gillis's 23rd overall team.

 

10. These guys had value?!?!?!?! are you serious??? At no point did I ever feel like these guys had value. I mean maybe they could have been moved for 3rd or 4th round picks and beyond? But is that positive or negative value, seeing how some of those guys were 1st round picks lol. By the time he did inherit these "gems" they were already passing the point of becoming an NHLer, aside from Shinkaruk who was just drafted, but he really didnt do a whole lot. We did move Lack and Shinkaruk, we got Granlund and a 3rd and a 7th lmao. I think you are overvaluing these guys then and now. 

 

11. Are you actually listening to yourself? So Benning has to draft and develop... sorry draft and ice NHLers right out of the gates.... REBUILD the team, make playoffs AND fill the farm system???? Like in what world do you live in that this expectation is realistic???? MAAAAYBE if Gillis could draft a couple players, that would be a little more attainable.... BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Gillis couldnt draft for the life of him. 8 years between him and Nonis, how many times do I have to repeat myself. THAT IS AN 8 YEAR TALENT DEFICIT. NO DEVELOPMENT for 8 FVCKING YEARS. And its Bennings fault he didnt fill the farm with prospects? Come on man. 

 

12. Umm once again... He inheritted A Norris winning dman, a 60goal scorer in Stamkos and Killorn. 3 important pieces to start off. Also I thought the GM was a secondary role? One GM gets the praise, the other gets the blame. Right.

 

Lets just look at his timeline.....

STEVE YZERMAN

General Manager

 

Staff History

TEAM	POSITION	DATE SPAN	AGE SPAN	DURATION
Tampa Bay Lightning	General Manager	May 25, 2010 - Sep. 11, 2018	45 - 53	8 Years, 3 Months, 17 Days

 

 

When did TBL win their first cup? OH 2019-20, 2 years after Stevie Y stepped down and 11 Years after drafting Steven Stamkos 1st overall.

 

 

13. You want to see Hockey purgatory??? We have our core pieces locked up. Not too worried about this "cap crunch" with a rumoured 4 mil increase next  year. Anyways lets see what a real hockey purgatory is. I'll start with Gillis and Nonis who sent us to purgatory

 

2013 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2013 Entry	9	1	Bo Horvat	C	London Knights [OHL]	578	174	197	371	190
2013 Entry	24	1	Hunter Shinkaruk	L	Medicine Hat Tigers [WHL]	15	2	2	4	4
2013 Entry	85	3	Cole Cassels	C	Oshawa Generals [OHL]
2013 Entry	115	4	Jordan Subban	D	Belleville Bulls [OHL]
2013 Entry	145	5	Anton Cederholm	D	Rogle Jrs. (Sweden)
2013 Entry	175	6	Mike Williamson	D	Spruce Grove Saints [AJHL]
2013 Entry	205	7	Miles Liberati	D	London Knights [OHL]
2012 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2012 Entry	26	1	Brendan Gaunce	C	Belleville Bulls [OHL]	148	11	12	23	59
2012 Entry	57	2	Alexandre Mallet	C	Rimouski Oceanic [QMJHL]
2012 Entry	147	5	Ben Hutton	D	Nepean Raiders [CCHL]	438	19	85	104	168
2012 Entry	177	6	Wesley Myron	F	Victoria Grizzlies [BCHL]
2012 Entry	207	7	Matthew Beattie	R	Exeter [N.H. H.S.]
2011 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2011 Entry	29	1	Nicklas Jensen	R	Oshawa Generals [OHL]	31	3	3	6	10
2011 Entry	71	3	David Honzik	G	Victoriaville Tigres [QMJHL]
2011 Entry	90	3	Alexandre Grenier	R	Quebec Remparts [QMJHL]	9	0	0	0	2
2011 Entry	101	4	Joseph LaBate	L	Holy Angels Academy (Minn.)	13	0	0	0	21
2011 Entry	120	4	Ludwig Blomstrand	L	Djurgardens Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2011 Entry	150	5	Frankie Corrado	D	Sudbury Wolves [OHL]	76	3	5	8	40
2011 Entry	180	6	Pathrik Westerholm	L	Malmo Redhawks [Swe-1]
2011 Entry	210	7	Henrik Tommernes	D	Frolunda HC [SEL]
2010 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2010 Entry	115	4	Patrick McNally	D	Milton Academy [Mass.]
2010 Entry	145	5	Adam Polasek	D	Prince Edward Island Rocket [QMJHL]
2010 Entry	172	6	Alex Friesen	C	Niagara IceDogs [OHL]	1	0	0	0	0
2010 Entry	175	6	Jonathan Iilahti	G	Blues Jrs (Finland)
2010 Entry	205	7	Sawyer Hannay	D	Halifax Mooseheads [QMJHL]
2009 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2009 Entry	22	1	Jordan Schroeder	L	U. of Minnesota [WCHA]	165	18	24	42	14
2009 Entry	53	2	Anton Rodin	R	Brynas Jr. [Swe-Jr]	3	0	1	1	0
2009 Entry	83	3	Kevin Connauton	D	Western Michigan University [CCHA]	360	28	52	80	188
2009 Entry	113	4	Jeremy Price	D	Nepean Raiders [CJHL]
2009 Entry	143	5	Peter Andersson	D	Vastra Frolunda Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2009 Entry	173	6	Joe Cannata	G	Merrimack College [H-East]
2009 Entry	187	7	Steven Anthony	L	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]
2008 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2008 Entry	10	1	Cody Hodgson	C	Brampton Battalion [OHL]	328	64	78	142	68
2008 Entry	41	2	Yann Sauve	D	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]	8	0	0	0	0
2008 Entry	131	5	Prabh Rai	C	Seattle Thunderbirds [WHL]
2008 Entry	161	6	Mats Josten-Froshaug	C	Linkoping HC Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2008 Entry	191	7	Morgan Clark	G	Red Deer Rebels [WHL]
2007 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2007 Entry	25	1	Patrick White	C	Tri-City Storm [USHL]
2007 Entry	33	2	Taylor Ellington	D	Everett Silvertips [WHL]
2007 Entry	145	5	Charles-Antoine Messier	C	Baie-Comeau Drakkar [QMJHL]
2007 Entry	146	5	Ilya Kablukov	W	CSKA Moscow [Russia]
2007 Entry	176	6	Taylor Matson	C	Des Moines Buccaneers [USHL]
2007 Entry	206	7	Dan Gendur	C	Everett Silvertips [WHL]
2006 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2006 Entry	14	1	Michael Grabner	R	Spokane Chiefs [WHL]	640	175	101	276	110
2006 Entry	82	3	Daniel Rahimi	D	Bjorkloven Jr. [Sweden]
2006 Entry	163	6	Sergei Shirokov	R	CSKA Moscow [Russia]	8	1	0	1	2
2006 Entry	167	6	Juraj Simek	W	Kloten HC [Swiss-A]
2006 Entry	197	7	Evan Fuller	C	Prince George Cougars [WHL]
2005 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2005 Entry	10	1	Luc Bourdon	D	Val d'Or Foreurs [QMJHL]	36	2	0	2	24
2005 Entry	51	2	Mason Raymond	L	Camrose Kodiaks [AJHL]	546	115	136	251	156
2005 Entry	114	4	Alexandre Vincent	G	Chicoutimi Sagueneens [QMJHL]
2005 Entry	138	5	Matt Butcher	C	Chilliwack Chiefs [BCHL]
2005 Entry	185	6	Kris Fredheim	D	Notre Dame Hounds [SJHL]	3	0	0	0	2
2005 Entry	205	7	Mario Bliznak	C	Dubnica Spartak HC [Slovak]	6	1	0	1	0

 

 

 

 

How about Our current GM/POHO?

2020 Entry	52	2	Joel Blomqvist	G	Karpat [SM-liiga]
2020 Entry	77	3	Calle Clang	G	Kristianstad Jrs. (Sweden)
2020 Entry	108	4	Lukas Svejkovsky	C	Medicine Hat Tigers [WHL]
2020 Entry	149	5	Raivis Ansons	R	Baie-Comeau Drakkar [QMJHL]
2020 Entry	170	6	Chase Yoder	F	U.S. National Under-18 Team [USHL]
2019 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2019 Entry	21	1	Samuel Poulin	R	Sherbrooke Phoenix [QMJHL]
2019 Entry	74	3	Nathan Legare	R	Baie-Comeau Drakkar [QMJHL]
2019 Entry	145	5	Judd Caulfield	R	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]
2019 Entry	203	7	Valtteri Puustinen	R	HPK Hameenlinna [SM-liiga]	1	0	1	1	0
2019 Entry	211	7	Santeri Airola	D	Saipa [Finland Jrs.]
2018 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2018 Entry	53	2	Calen Addison	D	Lethbridge Hurricanes [WHL]	23	2	8	10	2
2018 Entry	58	2	Filip Hallander	C	Timra IK [Swe-1]	1	0	0	0	0
2018 Entry	129	5	Justin Almeida	C	Moose Jaw Warriors [WHL]
2018 Entry	177	6	Liam Gorman	F	St. Sebastian's School (Mass. H.S.)
2017 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2017 Entry	51	2	Zachary Lauzon	D	Rouyn-Noranda Huskies [QMJHL]
2017 Entry	93	3	Clayton Phillips	D	Fargo Force [USHL]
2017 Entry	152	5	Jan Drozg	R	Leksand [Sweden-Jrs]
2017 Entry	155	5	Linus Olund	C	Brynas IF Gavle [SweHL]
2017 Entry	186	6	Antti Palojarvi	D	Lukko [Finland-Jrs]
2017 Entry	217	7	Will Reilly	D	R.P.I. [ECAC]
2016 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2016 Entry	55	2	Filip Gustavsson	G	Lulea HF [SweHL]	29	0	1	1	0
2016 Entry	61	2	Kasper Bjorkqvist	R	Blues Jrs (Finland)	6	1	0	1	2
2016 Entry	77	3	Connor Hall	D	Kitchener Rangers [OHL]
2016 Entry	121	4	Ryan Jones	D	Lincoln Stars [USHL]
2016 Entry	151	5	Niclas Almari	D	Jokerit Jrs (Finland)
2016 Entry	181	6	Joe Masonius	D	U. of Connecticut [H-East]
2015 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2015 Entry	46	2	Daniel Sprong	R	Charlottetown Islanders [QMJHL]	203	46	24	70	30
2015 Entry	137	5	Dominik Simon	C	Plzen HC [Czech]	256	22	55	77	80
2015 Entry	167	6	Frederik Tiffels	F	Western Michigan University [NCHC]
2015 Entry	197	7	Nikita Pavlychev	C	Des Moines Buccaneers [USHL]
2014 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2014 Entry	22	1	Kasperi Kapanen	R	KalPa Kuopio [SM-liiga]	326	64	93	157	78
2014 Entry	113	4	Sam Lafferty	C	Deerfield Academy (Mass. H.S.)	145	13	24	37	90
2014 Entry	145	5	Anthony Angello	C	Omaha Lancers [USHL]	31	3	2	5	14
2014 Entry	173	6	Jaden Lindo	R	Owen Sound Attack [OHL]
2014 Entry	203	7	Jeff Taylor	D	Union College [ECAC]
2013 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2013 Entry	44	2	Tristan Jarry	G	Edmonton Oil Kings [WHL]	163	0	8	8	18
2013 Entry	77	3	Jake Guentzel	L	Sioux City Musketeers [USHL]	379	164	182	346	168
2013 Entry	119	4	Ryan Segalla	D	Salisbury (Conn. H.S.)
2013 Entry	164	6	Dane Birks	D	Merritt Centennials [BCHL]
2013 Entry	179	6	Blaine Byron	C	Smiths Falls Bears [CCHL]
2013 Entry	209	7	Troy Josephs	C	St. Michael's Buzzers [OJHL]
2012 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2012 Entry	8	1	Derrick Pouliot	D	Portland Winterhawks [WHL]	213	8	44	52	85
2012 Entry	22	1	Olli Maatta	D	London Knights [OHL]	539	31	110	141	134
2012 Entry	52	2	Teddy Blueger	C	Shattuck St. Mary's [Minn. H.S]	205	31	51	82	66
2012 Entry	81	3	Oskar Sundqvist	C	Skelleftea AIK Jr. [Swe-Jr]	293	41	59	100	121
2012 Entry	83	3	Matt Murray	G	Soo Greyhounds [OHL]	247	0	5	5	10
2012 Entry	92	4	Matia Marcantuoni	C	Kitchener Rangers [OHL]
2012 Entry	113	4	Sean Maguire	G	Powell River Kings [BCHL]
2012 Entry	143	5	Clark Seymour	D	Peterborough Petes [OHL]
2012 Entry	173	6	Anton Zlobin	L	Shawinigan Cataractes [QMJHL]

 

 

Montreal? and Boston?

2020 Entry	58	2	Mason Lohrei	D	Green Bay Gamblers [USHL]
2020 Entry	89	3	Trevor Kuntar	L	Youngstown Phantoms [USHL]
2020 Entry	151	5	Mason Langenbrunner	D	Eden Prairie (Minn. H.S.)
2020 Entry	182	6	Riley Duran	C	Lawrence Academy (Mass. H.S.)
2019 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2019 Entry	30	1	John Beecher	C	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]
2019 Entry	92	3	Quinn Olson	L	Okotoks Oilers [AJHL]
2019 Entry	154	5	Roman Bychkov	D	Yaroslavl [Russia Jrs.]
2019 Entry	185	6	Matias Mantykivi	F	Saipa [Finland Jrs.]
2019 Entry	192	7	Jake Schmaltz	F	Chicago Steel [USHL]
2018 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2018 Entry	57	2	Axel Andersson	D	Djurgarden-2 (Sweden Jrs.)
2018 Entry	77	3	Jakub Lauko	C	Chomutov Pirati [Czech]	4	0	1	1	2
2018 Entry	119	4	Curtis Hall	C	Youngstown Phantoms [USHL]
2018 Entry	181	6	Dustyn McFaul	D	Pickering Panthers [OJHL]
2018 Entry	212	7	Pavel Shen	C	Khanty-Mansiysk Yugra [KHL]
2017 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2017 Entry	18	1	Urho Vaakanainen	D	JyP HT Jyvaskyla [SM-liiga]	45	0	8	8	12
2017 Entry	53	2	Jack Studnicka	C	Oshawa Generals [OHL]	38	1	6	7	10
2017 Entry	111	4	Jeremy Swayman	G	Sioux Falls Stampede [USHL]	53	0	0	0	6
2017 Entry	173	6	Cedric Pare	C	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]
2017 Entry	195	7	Victor Berglund	D	MODO [Sweden-Jrs]
2017 Entry	204	7	Daniel Bukac	D	Brandon Wheat Kings [WHL]
2016 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2016 Entry	14	1	Charlie McAvoy	D	Boston University [H-East]	313	34	144	178	243
2016 Entry	29	1	Trent Frederic	C	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]	124	13	12	25	144
2016 Entry	49	2	Ryan Lindgren	D	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]	200	6	41	47	144
2016 Entry	135	5	Joona Koppanen	L	Ilves Jrs (Finland)
2016 Entry	136	5	Cameron Clarke	D	Lone Star Brahmas [NAHL]
2016 Entry	165	6	Oskar Steen	C	Farjestad Jrs (Sweden)	23	2	4	6	8
2015 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2015 Entry	13	1	Jakub Zboril	D	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]	60	0	12	12	22
2015 Entry	14	1	Jake DeBrusk	L	Swift Current Broncos [WHL]	326	94	87	181	67
2015 Entry	15	1	Zachary Senyshyn	R	Soo Greyhounds [OHL]	16	1	2	3	4
2015 Entry	37	2	Brandon Carlo	D	Tri-City Americans [WHL]	405	21	49	70	231
2015 Entry	45	2	Jakob Forsbacka-Karlsson	C	Omaha Lancers [USHL]	29	3	6	9	2
2015 Entry	52	2	Jeremy Lauzon	D	Rouyn-Noranda Huskies [QMJHL]	145	5	13	18	158
2015 Entry	75	3	Daniel Vladar	G	Kladno Jrs. (Czech Rep.)	30	0	1	1	0
2015 Entry	105	4	Jesse Gabrielle	L	Regina Pats [WHL]
2015 Entry	165	6	Cameron Hughes	C	U. of Wisconsin [Big-10]	2	0	0	0	0
2015 Entry	195	7	Jack Becker	C	Mahtomedi (Minn. H.S.)
2014 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2014 Entry	25	1	David Pastrnak	R	Sodertalje SK [Swe-1]	516	244	270	514	219
2014 Entry	56	2	Ryan Donato	C	Dexter School (Mass H.S.)	260	52	58	110	82
2014 Entry	116	4	Danton Heinen	L	Surrey Eagles [BCHL]	353	65	95	160	62
2014 Entry	146	5	Anders Bjork	L	U.S. National Under-18 Team [USHL]	211	24	29	53	42
2014 Entry	206	7	Emil Johansson	D	HV71 (Sweden Jrs.)
2013 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2013 Entry	60	2	Linus Arnesson	D	Djurgarden Jrs. (Sweden)
2013 Entry	90	3	Peter Cehlarik	R	Lulea Jrs. (Sweden)	40	5	6	11	10
2013 Entry	120	4	Ryan Fitzgerald	C	Valley Jr. Warriors [EJHL]
2013 Entry	150	5	Wiley Sherman	D	Hotchkiss (Conn. H.S.)
2013 Entry	180	6	Anton Blidh	L	Frolunda Jrs. (Sweden)	71	4	8	12	37
2013 Entry	210	7	Mitchell Dempsey	L	Soo Greyhounds [OHL]
2012 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2012 Entry	24	1	Malcolm Subban	G	Belleville Bulls [OHL]	86	0	0	0	6
2012 Entry	85	3	Matt Grzelcyk	D	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]	309	19	81	100	172
2012 Entry	131	5	Seth Griffith	C	London Knights [OHL]	80	8	11	19	24
2012 Entry	145	5	Cody Payne	C	Plymouth Whalers [OHL]
2012 Entry	175	6	Matt Benning	D	Spruce Grove Saints [AJHL]	374	16	61	77	205
2012 Entry	205	7	Colton Hargrove	L	Fargo Force [USHL]

 

 

2020 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2020 Entry	16	1	Kaiden Guhle	D	Prince Albert Raiders [WHL]	6	0	2	2	7
2020 Entry	47	2	Luke Tuch	F	U.S. National Under-18 Team [USHL]
2020 Entry	48	2	Jan Mysak	C	Hamilton Bulldogs [OHL]
2020 Entry	102	4	Jack Smith	C	St. Cloud Cathedral (Wisc. H.S.)
2020 Entry	109	4	Blake Biondi	C	Hermantown (Minn. H.S.)
2020 Entry	124	4	Sean Farrell	L	Chicago Steel [USHL]
2020 Entry	136	5	Jakub Dobes	G	Omaha Lancers [USHL]
2020 Entry	171	6	Alexander Gordin	R	St. Petersburg Jrs. (Russia)
2019 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2019 Entry	15	1	Cole Caufield	R	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]	83	31	22	53	12
2019 Entry	46	2	Jayden Struble	D	St. Sebastiens [U.S. H.S.]
2019 Entry	64	3	Mattias Norlinder	D	MODO [Sweden Jrs.]	6	0	1	1	2
2019 Entry	77	3	Gianni Fairbrother	D	Everett Silvertips [WHL]
2019 Entry	126	5	Jacob Leguerrier	D	Soo Greyhounds [OHL]
2019 Entry	131	5	Rhett Pitlick	L	Chaska [Minn H.S.]
2019 Entry	138	5	Frederik Dichow	G	Vojens [Denmark Jrs.]
2019 Entry	170	6	Arsen Khisamutdinov	R	Nizhnekamsk [Russia Jrs.]
2019 Entry	201	7	Rafael Harvey-Pinard	L	Rouyn-Noranda Huskies [QMJHL]	4	1	0	1	0
2019 Entry	206	7	Kieran Ruscheinski	D	Calgary Northstars Midget AAA
2018 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2018 Entry	3	1	Jesperi Kotkaniemi	C	Assat Pori [SM-liiga]	242	34	59	93	100
2018 Entry	35	2	Jesse Ylonen	R	Espoo (Finland Jrs)	15	2	3	5	2
2018 Entry	38	2	Alexander Romanov	D	CSKA-2 (Russia Jrs.)	139	4	15	19	76
2018 Entry	56	2	Jacob Olofsson	C	Timra IK [Swe-1]
2018 Entry	66	3	Cam Hillis	C	Guelph Storm [OHL]	1	0	0	0	0
2018 Entry	71	3	Jordan Harris	D	Kimball-Union (New Hamp. H.S.)	16	1	1	2	10
2018 Entry	97	4	Allan McShane	C	Oshawa Generals [OHL]
2018 Entry	123	4	Jack Gorniak	L	West Salem (Wisc. H.S.)
2018 Entry	128	5	Cole Fonstad	L	Prince Albert Raiders [WHL]
2018 Entry	133	5	Samuel Houde	C	Chicoutimi Sagueneens [QMJHL]
2018 Entry	190	7	Brett Stapley	C	Vernon Vipers [BCHL]
2017 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2017 Entry	25	1	Ryan Poehling	C	St. Cloud State [NCHC]	90	14	10	24	10
2017 Entry	56	2	Josh Brook	D	Moose Jaw Warriors [WHL]
2017 Entry	58	2	Joni Ikonen	C	Frolunda [Sweden-Jr]
2017 Entry	68	3	Scott Walford	D	Victoria Royals [WHL]
2017 Entry	87	3	Cale Fleury	D	Kootenay Ice [WHL]	50	1	0	1	6
2017 Entry	149	5	Jarret Tyszka	D	Seattle Thunderbirds [WHL]
2017 Entry	199	7	Cayden Primeau	G	Lincoln Stars [USHL]	18	0	0	0	0
2016 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2016 Entry	9	1	Mikhail Sergachev	D	Windsor Spitfires [OHL]	368	36	142	178	221
2016 Entry	70	3	William Bitten	C	Flint Firebirds [OHL]
2016 Entry	100	4	Victor Mete	D	London Knights [OHL]	238	5	38	43	42
2016 Entry	124	5	Casey Staum	D	Grand Rapids (Minn. H.S.)
2016 Entry	160	6	Michael Pezzetta	L	Sudbury Wolves [OHL]	51	5	6	11	81
2016 Entry	187	7	Arvid Henrikson	D	AIK Jrs (Sweden)
2015 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2015 Entry	26	1	Noah Juulsen	D	Everett Silvertips [WHL]	58	2	8	10	10
2015 Entry	87	3	Lukas Vejdemo	C	Djurgardens Jrs. (Sweden)	13	2	0	2	0
2015 Entry	131	5	Matt Bradley	C	Medicine Hat Tigers [WHL]
2015 Entry	177	6	Simon Bourque	D	Rimouski Oceanic [QMJHL]
2015 Entry	207	7	Jeremiah Addison	L	Ottawa 67's [OHL]
2014 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2014 Entry	26	1	Nikita Scherbak	R	Saskatoon Blades [WHL]	37	6	2	8	10
2014 Entry	73	3	Brett Lernout	D	Swift Current Broncos [WHL]	21	0	1	1	6
2014 Entry	125	5	Nikolas Koberstein	D	Olds Grizzlys [AJHL]
2014 Entry	147	5	Daniel Audette	C	Sherbrooke Phoenix [QMJHL]
2014 Entry	177	6	Hayden Hawkey	G	Omaha Lancers [USHL]
2014 Entry	207	7	Jake Evans	C	St. Michael's Buzzers [OJHL]	138	18	28	46	51
2013 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2013 Entry	25	1	Michael McCarron	R	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]	128	9	13	22	196
2013 Entry	34	2	Jacob De La Rose	C	Leksands IF [Swe-1]	242	13	25	38	84
2013 Entry	36	2	Zachary Fucale	G	Halifax Mooseheads [QMJHL]	4	0	0	0	0
2013 Entry	55	2	Artturi Lehkonen	L	KalPa Kuopio [SM-liiga]	418	82	81	163	118
2013 Entry	71	3	Connor Crisp	C	Erie Otters [OHL]
2013 Entry	86	3	Sven Andrighetto	R	Rouyn-Noranda Huskies [QMJHL]	216	31	52	83	42
2013 Entry	116	4	Martin Reway	L	Gatineau Olympiques [QMJHL]
2013 Entry	176	6	Jeremy Gregoire	C	Baie-Comeau Drakkar [QMJHL]
2012 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2012 Entry	3	1	Alex Galchenyuk	C	Sarnia Sting [OHL]	643	146	208	354	253
2012 Entry	33	2	Sebastian Collberg	R	Frolunda HC [SEL]
2012 Entry	51	2	Dalton Thrower	D	Saskatoon Blades [WHL]
2012 Entry	64	3	Tim Bozon	L	Kamloops Blazers [WHL]
2012 Entry	94	4	Brady Vail	C	Windsor Spitfires [OHL]
2012 Entry	122	5	Charles Hudon	L	Chicoutimi Sagueneens [QMJHL]	125	14	27	41	56
2012 Entry	154	6	Erik Nystrom	L	MODO Hockey Ornskoldsvik [SEL]
2011 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2011 Entry	17	1	Nathan Beaulieu	D	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]	422	12	82	94	305
2011 Entry	97	4	Josiah Didier	D	Cedar Rapids RoughRiders [USHL]
2011 Entry	108	4	Olivier Archambault	L	Val d'Or Foreurs [QMJHL]
2011 Entry	113	4	Magnus Nygren	D	Farjestads BK Karlstad [SEL]
2011 Entry	138	5	Darren Dietz	D	Saskatoon Blades [WHL]	13	1	4	5	13
2011 Entry	168	6	Daniel Pribyl	C	Sparta Jrs. (Czech Rep)
2011 Entry	198	7	Colin Sullivan	D	Avon Old Farms H.S. (Conn.)

 

 

 

contracts expire, the cap will rise. not being able to draft, sends you to purgatory. Just wait for it, these teams are absolutely f***ed and thats just a few to name. But Hey our GM missed in a couple drafts and gave up a couple 1sts for roster players and we're the ones heading to purgatory.....

 

Allvin and JR had their moment to make  an impact on the future and they chose to resign Miller. Thats not on JB, he handed them valuable assets that he never had. 

JT Miller, Boeser, Garland and a few others with decent value, plus some prospects.

[DSVII]

8 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

You're ignoring the fact the STL Blues have been consistent playoff teams, and still draft great players. Detroit did the same, Tampa bay..... Whats Gillis' excuse? Why have there been continuous playoff teams, drafting NHL players, while contending or at least getting into playoffs... But Gillis couldnt?

Again, value of draft position and context explains this. Someone also has a short memory of what STL and Tampa did in 2008-2014. 

 

It was the double whammy of Gillis trading away too many picks to fuel the SC run, and Tampa Bay was rebuilding at the time remember? St Louis hoarded more picks than Gillis did during that time as well.  Different contexts.

 

Here, let me graph this for you.

 

Let's assume you agree to this premise. That in a draft, your position determines the probability of finding an NHL ready player.

 

As you can see, even late in the first round, the probability of landing elite talent decreases expontentially.

 

 

From this declining exponential curve, we can create a value chart for how much value you can place on each position of the draft to line out this curve.

 

This is empirically also accepted, if you want to move up in the draft, you have to trade at least two or more picks to equal the value of picking even a few positions up in the first round. https://soundofhockey.com/2022/06/06/examining-the-value-of-nhl-draft-picks/

 

 

Let's put these values over the draft picks and overlay them with actual picks made by the teams with picks they had or traded for, and for good measure, plop winning percentage over the graph. https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/index.html
 

Note: The line represents the draft capital of the default picks of inherited by a 15th place team, and represents a points % of 58% on the season (95 pts) for an arbitrary playoff marker.

 

So....

Pink bars = Draft value based on actual picks made by teams in that draft year and their assigned values on the table above

Blue line = Team winning % in the regular season

Grey line = 95 pts percentage for playoffs and the average draft capital of a team that has 7 picks from the 15th spot of each round.

 

 

Gillis Canucks 2008-2014 (here you can see that we traded picks away to fuel that President's trophy run and a higher team winning %) - again you can see how much more draft capital Benning had to jumpstart his regime vs Gillis for the 2014 NHL draft 

 

 

What did St Louis do during the same time frame Gillis was GM? (looks like they were hoarding more picks to retool/rebuild) playing at below a 95pt pace, naturally they will draft higher, have more picks and thus get more prospects than Gillis.

 

What was Tampa doing during that same time frame? Again, building up draft capital for a rebuild and bottoming out in the 2013 draft year

 

Detroit is what happens when you are trying to sell for one last hurrah with Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Lidstrom propping you up. Detroit drafts better than Gillis for sure but as you can see they even had more draft value than van for a few draft years early in Gillis' reign.

 

Care to see what the graph looks like under Benning's tenure? Again, this is the most infuriating part. Benning can draft well but he never loaded up on picks the same way elite teams like Tampa and STL had during their retool years. As good as Benning is, he can't produce the same results with one 3rd round pick while teams like STL had two 2nd rounders during their similar phase

 

Usually a rebuilding team should accumulate more draft capital than a team that finishes in 15th place. Benning only did that once in 2017 and that was because he was gifted a free 2nd from Torts.

 

This is what Sakic did over the same time frame. He definitely picked his spots to load up on draft capital to coincide with his team's downturns.

 

Toronto really illustrates how much a two year tear down can help at least get your team set up to consistently go above the playoff line.

Quote

So that 1 mil you talk about has greater value than the 2.25 that Benning saved by replacing Tanev with Schmidt,

Schmidt was $5.95 mil

Tanev signed for $4.5 mil

 

Hell yeah i'd take Tanev over Schmidt, even if that Jfresh chart had him 1.0 above Tanev. And put that $1.45 mil savings to signing Toffoli.

 

 

 

Quote

Qualifying Virtanen and not resigning an aging Toffoli, and Getting Holtby a cup winner over Markstrom.. Why is it fair for your argument, but when I point it out to you, you ignore it and then go zomg we coulda saved 1 mil with Stecher over Poolman. 

Markstrom was 3x the term of Holtby

Jakes QO was 1/2 of Toffoli's term and almost 1/2 his cap, plus still had youth on his side.

Schmidt

Because it was a hole that was created through an unforced error, when he literally had the bird sitting in his hand right there, and that hole from 2020 persists today. Markstrom you can see the succession plan. Where was the RHD succession plan?

 

Aging Toffoli? He was 28 years old at the time of his signing, a better bet than the 30+ yr old signings Benning made up until then. Considering we just paid a 2nd and prospect for him, it represented value leaving out of the door either way.

 

You're signing a cup winning goalie four years after his run in his thirties, I wouldn't say that was a good bet. That was a hallmark of Benning, signing players that were good some  years ago, not right now.

 

Quote

Why is it fair for your argument, but when I point it out to you

Please point it out again, because that string of words you put together isn't making sense after mentioning Marky.

 

Quote

Schmidt

 

 

is the point of this to convince me that I should pay $1.5 mil more and an extra year in a flat cap world for Schmidt? Because it's not working.

 
and how come a one year gap where the younger guy is 29 is banking on youth but signing a 28 year old winger is considered an aging player.

 

Quote

 

No foresight right?

 

Upgrade on Tanev, banked on youth and signed a cup winning goalie for 2.25mil less... And you're talking about Stecher and the nearly 1mil they coulda saved on Poolman and his term?

Definitely no foresight, considering Virtanen/Holtby were bought out a year later and Schmidt shipped out as well for a 3rd. Every move he made for the 2020 offseason didn't even have a shelf life of 1 season, so year i'd say no foresight. 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by DSVII

[DSVII]

3 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

1. How many of those fan bases tried to burn their city down.... twice?

 

LA sports riots makes ours look like a walk in the park. And try going into Boston and New England wearing anything New York related and you'll see just how reasonable our fanbase is.

 

https://metro.co.uk/2018/02/05/here-are-five-american-cities-which-rioted-after-sporting-success-and-defeat-7289493/

 

Quote

2. Umm first off they let JG walk to UFA.... No complaints on that eh? But Tanev and Toffoli were bigger losses?

 

Deflection. And strawman. 

 

Quote

Back to the main point though, its not like they went looking for a trade, Tkachuk wanted a trade out. They were pressured to make a deal. Good on them, they got a pretty good return.... But for how long will Huberdeau be a top player? Hes 29 and on a long term deal next year with a 10.5mil cap hit..... is this going to pay off for them???

The point of bringing up Tkachuk was, drafting BPA is still the way to go over positional needs, because even if the person wants out, you can still get a good return for them.

 

Would you rather have Huberdeau and Weegar? Or Lammiko?

 

 

Quote

3. The JT Miller trade, the Myers signing, the Toffoli trade... All were Foresight. After EP40's rookie year, it was clear that this team had some serious talent coming up. Boeser was looking great, Horvat was taking steps forward, Pettersson was a star player, we had Markstrom playing at a high level. We added players and we were having a pretty solid season. We stole JT Miller, we scored a top 4 RHD in Myers, something we desperately needed. You're telling me none of this was foresight when JB went and bent TBL over for JT? He saw the direction the team was heading and added. That is foresight.

There was no foresight with the Toffoli trade, no attempt to even contact him to sign even with cap space available.

 

The JT Miller trade was a gamble, made in the similar mindset as Brandon Sutter. A 3C on a high octane offense who could potentially put it together. he was lucky it worked out. There is no foresight because it put us into a future cap crunch that we are experiencing now.

 

TBL bent JB over on Miller. They were in a cap crunch, no one else was willing to flip a 1st for JT. They then used the 1st to get back to back cups by trading for Blake Coleman. 

Make no mistake, JB had a hand in contributing to both Penguins and TBL back to back cups because of his inefficent trades for their soon-to-be overpaid 3Cs. 

 

And the 2020 team that did make the bubble, from mortgaging the future and the 2020 draft picks, ended up staying together for 1 season.

 

Not to mention signing Ferland in free agency who had a history of concussions? on an uninsured contract?

 

Yea. No foresight at all. 

 

Quote

4. His scouting credit in idk... Buffalo?? Miller, Gaustad, Pominville, Roy, Wideman, Paille, Ballard, Hejda, Macarthur,  Vanek, Stafford, Sekera - Only 3 1st rounders in that list of players. 

Was I giving him credit for Boston? Nope.

 

5. I never dismissed Gradin/Bracketts work. I clearly said, if you read anything, after the 2014 draft JB made changes to the scouting department. Meaning he knew there were issues and brought in a better scouting staff.
 

Now on that very same note, you state JB is in a secondary role.... And the scouting work of Gradin and Brackett really deserves the credit. Kinda confusing. One minute its Bennings fault, the next minute its all the work of the scouts. 

It's a shame then that his scouting never caught up to the 2020s then.

 

Promoting brackett was great, letting him leave because Benning didn't want give him automony was a mistake.

 

Quote

So does this mean JB was mis-informed on Virtanen and Juoelvi that you blame him for not taking Ehlers/Nylander/Tkachuk?

Not at all.

 

There were reports from Botchford that Gradin really wanted Nylander, and Benning overruled him because Aquilini wanted the home boy Virtanen. 

 

And Juolevi was Benning's pick because he loved how he played on a stacked Finnish Team. 

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/canucks-mailbag-whats-going-gm-jim-benning-judd-brackett/

 

From Imac himself

 

There were even reports Benning wanted Cody Glass, but in 2017 he deferred to Judd Brackett on this. So yeah. The support staff helped Benning land one of his best draft picks.

 

Quote

6. My point is, our current GM and POHO, worked together in PIT and the talent and upside they saw in Kapanen was greater than Pastrnak. Both are RH RW.

So is that not a little concerning? Especially when you look back and see that they really havent drafted strong for quite awhile in PIT.. No excuses, other contenders/strong playoff teams have drafted well later in rounds. 

 

7. Whos selling the vision to who?? FA doesnt want a rebuild, so its his fault, but its Benning that failed to 1) draft and produce enough NHLers to replace the Twins, Bieksa, Burrows, Hansen, Hamhuis etc etc etc.... With 8 years of lagging behind development.

I mean, just look at the draft charts on probability of NHL players, even late in the 1st round. I'd consider hitting on anyone that can play regularly in the NHL a win. Not every draft will have a superstar calibre player that goes to the 20th pick. that's why I don't give Benning too much grief on missing Pastranak, because he did end up with McCann.

 

It's more concerning, that despite hitting on McCann, JB undercut his own strength by packaging him away for Gudbranson.

 

Quote

its Benning that failed to 1) draft and produce enough NHLers to replace the Twins, Bieksa, Burrows, Hansen, Hamhuis etc etc etc.... With 8 years of lagging behind development.

It's Benning's fault that he didn't execute on his vision by mismanaging the cap structure of the team, signing overpriced overagers to boat anchor contracts, and failing essentially on his pro-scouting and reclaimation projects, trading too many picks away.

 

Benning drafted well enough, but he didn't put himself and the team in a position to succeed.

 

And yes, he should have backed Linden, but if Benning believed enough in FA's vision to go against him, he's accountable for how crappy he executed it. Especially after he had Petey/Hughes/Demko drafted.

 

Quote

8A. So Benning botched us long term by trading 2 1sts? But 8 years of failed drafting had ZERO implications on the future? Can you please explain and make some sense about that? He's the only GM in the last 15 years to actually draft several NHL talented players. IDGAF about draft position. He found McCann and Boeser where MG found Schroeder and Shinkaruk. Dont give excuses. 

The decision to not capitalize on the inherited team had major implications on the future. The decision to not accumulate draft capital and continually gun for it had implications on the future.

 

Mismanaging the cap and incorrectly identifying the culture carriers on the team and free agents that could help did.

 

Quote

IDGAF about draft position

And it clearly shows in your line of thinking.

 

It's not an excuse, it's the reality of the business. Value of Draft position is as real a concept as Salary Cap. In all the major sports.

 

NHL Gms would disagree with you, considering they trade multiple picks to move up in the draft.

 

So in your  universe, would you trade a 1st overall for a 25th pick straight up? Because draft position doesn't matter right? And that 25th pick could be Pastranak right?

 

It's unfortunate because that's really the only reality where you can base this 'Gillis had no excuses' argument from. 

 

 

Quote

8C. Sorry maybe didnt inherit "nothing" but sure didnt inherit much at all compared to what Sakic inheritted. Or Gorton in NY.

The point was he actually inherited a pretty good base to build something from or to pivot. He failed on both accounts.

 

Quote

9. If you're talking about the 2014-15 team being a 100pt team.... That was Bennings team bud. He took them from 23rd to 8th in one offseason, through free agency. In fact those were actually pieces that Burke and Nonis left behind.... Not Gillis. They left those behind for Gillis to put pen to paper.... He should be thankful for Burke and Nonis' 1 good draft.

Burrows.. Bieksa... Kesler... Hansen....Edler... Etc.

 

Benning inheritted Gillis's 23rd overall team.

I thought the 2014-15 team was laden full of unmoveable NTCs/NMCs that the prior regime signed, so it definitely has Gillis' finger prints on a substantial part its core.

 

The Sedins

Horvat

Jansen

Burrows

Edler

Bieksa

Hamhuis

Tanev

Higgins

Markstrom

Eddie Lack

 

The 23rd finish was an outlier caused by Torts, not a pattern. It was a 100 pt team for the prior seasons way before that. Even 1-2-3-4 Willie was able to get 100 pts off the Sedins.

 

 

Quote

10. These guys had value?!?!?!?! are you serious??? At no point did I ever feel like these guys had value. I mean maybe they could have been moved for 3rd or 4th round picks and beyond? But is that positive or negative value, seeing how some of those guys were 1st round picks lol. By the time he did inherit these "gems" they were already passing the point of becoming an NHLer, aside from Shinkaruk who was just drafted, but he really didnt do a whole lot. We did move Lack and Shinkaruk, we got Granlund and a 3rd and a 7th lmao. I think you are overvaluing these guys then and now. 

Agree to disagree here, we tend to have the bad habit of holding onto our guys too long until they've diminished into nothing. Usually a year or two too late.

 

Quote

11. Are you actually listening to yourself? So Benning has to draft and develop... sorry draft and ice NHLers right out of the gates.... REBUILD the team, make playoffs AND fill the farm system???? Like in what world do you live in that this expectation is realistic???? MAAAAYBE if Gillis could draft a couple players, that would be a little more attainable.... BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Gillis couldnt draft for the life of him. 8 years between him and Nonis, how many times do I have to repeat myself. THAT IS AN 8 YEAR TALENT DEFICIT. NO DEVELOPMENT for 8 FVCKING YEARS. And its Bennings fault he didnt fill the farm with prospects? Come on man. 

Calm down man. 

 

If i was judging Benning on a retool, which he committed to, I'd expect him to stock up on draft picks so he could draft his core and also fill up the farm. Then slowly build the team back up to contention. It means being willing to suck for a year or two then reset.

 

- Draft a new core (Success)

- Retain your first round picks at all costs as they present your best chance at getting cost controlled ELCs (up to 2020 - success, 2020 onwards -failed)

- Sell at the trade deadline if you miss the mark or are out of the playoffs (Failed)

- Enter each year with more than the 7 default draft picks every team gets every year (Failed)

- Ride out the bad contracts and don't mortgage your future to get rid of them for the sake of a one and done playoff run (Failed)

- Surround that core with cheap, effective veteran leadership (2014-15 Success, 2016 onwards, Failed)

- Structure the contracts in free agency so they don't get in the way of you extending your core (Failed)

- Have the flexibility to pivot and not double down when a season isn't going according to plan (Failed)

 

To retool successfully, Benning has to accumulate value at a faster rate than other team, either at the NHL level through winning trades or deft signings. Or through adding more picks at the draft.

 

I expected Benning to be patient and not make rash moves, for me, keeping the 7 default picks we had was my absolute minimum standard. Take the lumps when we can like Tampa/Detroit/Colorado/STL did and know when to sell and when to buy. 

 

He failed in his execution, plain and simple. 

 

And to put the shoe on the other foot, Gillis may not be able to draft like his life depended on it, but I'd extend the same inability towards Benning's trades, free agent signings, cap and asset management and picks for reclamation project trades. 

 

Quote

12. Umm once again... He inheritted A Norris winning dman, a 60goal scorer in Stamkos and Killorn. 3 important pieces to start off. Also I thought the GM was a secondary role? One GM gets the praise, the other gets the blame. Right.

GM was not a secondary role, but judging them purely by the results of drafting is not what a GM is all about. It's about juggling multiple aspects of an org and focusing them on a goal. 

 

And to put the shoe on the other foot,  Benning inherited Two hall of famers, a Selke centre on the trade block, A Vezina caliber Goalie, Four top 4 caliber D (two of which were in their prime) and his future captain and he still couldn't build a winning culture or a team that doesn't threaten to implode the next offseason due to cap considerations.

 

He spent 8 years of this team's life building a Glass Cannon. 

 

 

Quote

When did TBL win their first cup? OH 2019-20, 2 years after Stevie Y stepped down and 11 Years after drafting Steven Stamkos 1st overall.

 

13. You want to see Hockey purgatory??? We have our core pieces locked up. Not too worried about this "cap crunch" with a rumoured 4 mil increase next  year. Anyways lets see what a real hockey purgatory is. I'll start with Gillis and Nonis who sent us to purgatory

Refer back to my previous post on context and draft capital accumulation vs team winning percentages due to different stages of their life cycle.

 

Throwing a list of names is meaningless without context.

 

Here's that mega list of names in graph form based on the value of their draft positions and the winning percentage of the team in the regular season.

 

Here is Pittsburgh's. it sure looks like getting Malkin and Crosby in back to back drafts just puts your team in a position to trade away all your draft capital for immediate help since you're expected to go to playoffs. And it sure looks like if you compare them to any rebuilding team in that time span, of course they'll end up with crappier draft prospects compared to a rebulding team or even an average team.

 

If you put Benning at the helm of those picks, I dare say his results won't be much better than JR's because value of draft position is a real concept.

 

but by all means, tell me how Benning is magically going to draft a Pastranak at the 113th pick.

Edited October 25, 2022 by DSVII

[Timråfan]

4 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

1. How many of those fan bases tried to burn their city down.... twice?

 

2. Umm first off they let JG walk to UFA.... No complaints on that eh? But Tanev and Toffoli were bigger losses? Back to the main point though, its not like they went looking for a trade, Tkachuk wanted a trade out. They were pressured to make a deal. Good on them, they got a pretty good return.... But for how long will Huberdeau be a top player? Hes 29 and on a long term deal next year with a 10.5mil cap hit..... is this going to pay off for them???

 

3. The JT Miller trade, the Myers signing, the Toffoli trade... All were Foresight. After EP40's rookie year, it was clear that this team had some serious talent coming up. Boeser was looking great, Horvat was taking steps forward, Pettersson was a star player, we had Markstrom playing at a high level. We added players and we were having a pretty solid season. We stole JT Miller, we scored a top 4 RHD in Myers, something we desperately needed. You're telling me none of this was foresight when JB went and bent TBL over for JT? He saw the direction the team was heading and added. That is foresight.

 

4. His scouting credit in idk... Buffalo?? Miller, Gaustad, Pominville, Roy, Wideman, Paille, Ballard, Hejda, Macarthur,  Vanek, Stafford, Sekera - Only 3 1st rounders in that list of players. 

Was I giving him credit for Boston? Nope.

 

5. I never dismissed Gradin/Bracketts work. I clearly said, if you read anything, after the 2014 draft JB made changes to the scouting department. Meaning he knew there were issues and brought in a better scouting staff.

JUDD BRACKETT

Director of Amateur Scouting

Staff History

TEAM	POSITION	DATE SPAN	AGE SPAN	DURATION
Vancouver Canucks	Director of Amateur Scouting	Aug. 4, 2015 - Jun. 30, 2020		4 Years, 10 Months, 26 Days

 

 

 

Now on that very same note, you state JB is in a secondary role.... And the scouting work of Gradin and Brackett really deserves the credit. So does this mean JB was mis-informed on Virtanen and Juoelvi that you blame him for not taking Ehlers/Nylander/Tkachuk? Kinda confusing. One minute its Bennings fault, the next minute its all the work of the scouts. 

 

 

Also, what was your thoughts on Sakic walking into COL with, ROR, Duchene, Landeskog and Mackinnon? versus Benning walking in with... Not really sure about Horvat (weak skater at the time)

 

 

6. My point is, our current GM and POHO, worked together in PIT and the talent and upside they saw in Kapanen was greater than Pastrnak. Both are RH RW.

So is that not a little concerning? Especially when you look back and see that they really havent drafted strong for quite awhile in PIT.. No excuses, other contenders/strong playoff teams have drafted well later in rounds. 

 

7. Whos selling the vision to who?? FA doesnt want a rebuild, so its his fault, but its Benning that failed to 1) draft and produce enough NHLers to replace the Twins, Bieksa, Burrows, Hansen, Hamhuis etc etc etc.... With 8 years of lagging behind development.

 

8A. So Benning botched us long term by trading 2 1sts? But 8 years of failed drafting had ZERO implications on the future? Can you please explain and make some sense about that? He's the only GM in the last 15 years to actually draft several NHL talented players. IDGAF about draft position. He found McCann and Boeser where MG found Schroeder and Shinkaruk. Dont give excuses. 

8B.

Tanev?

2012-13	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	38	2	5	7	10	4
2013-14	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	64	6	11	17	8	12
2014-15	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	70	2	18	20	12	8

Kassian??

2012-13	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	39	7	4	11	51	-7	4	0	0	0	4
2013-14	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	73	14	15	29	124	-4	--	--	--	--	--
2014-15	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	42	10	6	16	81	-5

Edler? 

2013-14

Vancouver Canucks

NHL

63

7

15

22

50

-39

Hansen?? 

2013-14	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	71	11	9	20	43	-9	--	--	--	--	--
2014-15	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	81	16	17	33	27	-6

Like do these kinda players really look like the type of players to net you mid to high firsts or high end prospects?..... Not likely. But

ROR

2011-12	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	81	18	37	55	12	-1	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Magnitogorsk Metallurg	KHL	12	5	5	10	2	6	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	29	6	14	20	4	-3	--	--	--	--	--
2013-14	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	80	28	36	64	2	-1	7	2	4	6	0
2014-15	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	82	17	38	55	12	-5

 

and 

2009-10	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	81	24	31	55	16	1	6	0	3	3	0
2010-11	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	80	27	40	67	33	-8	--	--	--	--	--
2011-12	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	58	14	14	28	8	-11	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Frolunda HC	SEL	19	4	10	14	12	10	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Ambri-Piotta	Swiss-A	4	2	3	5	2	2	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	47	17	26	43	12	-12	--	--	--	--	--
2013-14	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	71	23	47	70	19	8	2	0	3	3	2
2014-15	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	82	21	34	55	16	3	--	--	--	--	--
2015-16	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	76	30	29	59	24	-8	--	--	--	--	--
2016-17	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	77	18	23	41	12	-34	--	--	--	--	--
2017-18	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	14	4	6	10	4	1	--	--	--	--	--
2017-18	Ottawa Senators	NHL	68	23	26	49	14	-23

Duchene sure do.

 

8C. Sorry maybe didnt inherit "nothing" but sure didnt inherit much at all compared to what Sakic inheritted. Or Gorton in NY.

 

9. If you're talking about the 2014-15 team being a 100pt team.... That was Bennings team bud. He took them from 23rd to 8th in one offseason, through free agency. In fact those were actually pieces that Burke and Nonis left behind.... Not Gillis. They left those behind for Gillis to put pen to paper.... He should be thankful for Burke and Nonis' 1 good draft.

Burrows.. Bieksa... Kesler... Hansen....Edler... Etc.

 

Benning inheritted Gillis's 23rd overall team.

 

10. These guys had value?!?!?!?! are you serious??? At no point did I ever feel like these guys had value. I mean maybe they could have been moved for 3rd or 4th round picks and beyond? But is that positive or negative value, seeing how some of those guys were 1st round picks lol. By the time he did inherit these "gems" they were already passing the point of becoming an NHLer, aside from Shinkaruk who was just drafted, but he really didnt do a whole lot. We did move Lack and Shinkaruk, we got Granlund and a 3rd and a 7th lmao. I think you are overvaluing these guys then and now. 

 

11. Are you actually listening to yourself? So Benning has to draft and develop... sorry draft and ice NHLers right out of the gates.... REBUILD the team, make playoffs AND fill the farm system???? Like in what world do you live in that this expectation is realistic???? MAAAAYBE if Gillis could draft a couple players, that would be a little more attainable.... BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Gillis couldnt draft for the life of him. 8 years between him and Nonis, how many times do I have to repeat myself. THAT IS AN 8 YEAR TALENT DEFICIT. NO DEVELOPMENT for 8 FVCKING YEARS. And its Bennings fault he didnt fill the farm with prospects? Come on man. 

 

12. Umm once again... He inheritted A Norris winning dman, a 60goal scorer in Stamkos and Killorn. 3 important pieces to start off. Also I thought the GM was a secondary role? One GM gets the praise, the other gets the blame. Right.

 

Lets just look at his timeline.....

STEVE YZERMAN

General Manager

 

Staff History

TEAM	POSITION	DATE SPAN	AGE SPAN	DURATION
Tampa Bay Lightning	General Manager	May 25, 2010 - Sep. 11, 2018	45 - 53	8 Years, 3 Months, 17 Days

 

 

When did TBL win their first cup? OH 2019-20, 2 years after Stevie Y stepped down and 11 Years after drafting Steven Stamkos 1st overall.

 

 

13. You want to see Hockey purgatory??? We have our core pieces locked up. Not too worried about this "cap crunch" with a rumoured 4 mil increase next  year. Anyways lets see what a real hockey purgatory is. I'll start with Gillis and Nonis who sent us to purgatory

 

2013 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2013 Entry	9	1	Bo Horvat	C	London Knights [OHL]	578	174	197	371	190
2013 Entry	24	1	Hunter Shinkaruk	L	Medicine Hat Tigers [WHL]	15	2	2	4	4
2013 Entry	85	3	Cole Cassels	C	Oshawa Generals [OHL]
2013 Entry	115	4	Jordan Subban	D	Belleville Bulls [OHL]
2013 Entry	145	5	Anton Cederholm	D	Rogle Jrs. (Sweden)
2013 Entry	175	6	Mike Williamson	D	Spruce Grove Saints [AJHL]
2013 Entry	205	7	Miles Liberati	D	London Knights [OHL]
2012 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2012 Entry	26	1	Brendan Gaunce	C	Belleville Bulls [OHL]	148	11	12	23	59
2012 Entry	57	2	Alexandre Mallet	C	Rimouski Oceanic [QMJHL]
2012 Entry	147	5	Ben Hutton	D	Nepean Raiders [CCHL]	438	19	85	104	168
2012 Entry	177	6	Wesley Myron	F	Victoria Grizzlies [BCHL]
2012 Entry	207	7	Matthew Beattie	R	Exeter [N.H. H.S.]
2011 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2011 Entry	29	1	Nicklas Jensen	R	Oshawa Generals [OHL]	31	3	3	6	10
2011 Entry	71	3	David Honzik	G	Victoriaville Tigres [QMJHL]
2011 Entry	90	3	Alexandre Grenier	R	Quebec Remparts [QMJHL]	9	0	0	0	2
2011 Entry	101	4	Joseph LaBate	L	Holy Angels Academy (Minn.)	13	0	0	0	21
2011 Entry	120	4	Ludwig Blomstrand	L	Djurgardens Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2011 Entry	150	5	Frankie Corrado	D	Sudbury Wolves [OHL]	76	3	5	8	40
2011 Entry	180	6	Pathrik Westerholm	L	Malmo Redhawks [Swe-1]
2011 Entry	210	7	Henrik Tommernes	D	Frolunda HC [SEL]
2010 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2010 Entry	115	4	Patrick McNally	D	Milton Academy [Mass.]
2010 Entry	145	5	Adam Polasek	D	Prince Edward Island Rocket [QMJHL]
2010 Entry	172	6	Alex Friesen	C	Niagara IceDogs [OHL]	1	0	0	0	0
2010 Entry	175	6	Jonathan Iilahti	G	Blues Jrs (Finland)
2010 Entry	205	7	Sawyer Hannay	D	Halifax Mooseheads [QMJHL]
2009 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2009 Entry	22	1	Jordan Schroeder	L	U. of Minnesota [WCHA]	165	18	24	42	14
2009 Entry	53	2	Anton Rodin	R	Brynas Jr. [Swe-Jr]	3	0	1	1	0
2009 Entry	83	3	Kevin Connauton	D	Western Michigan University [CCHA]	360	28	52	80	188
2009 Entry	113	4	Jeremy Price	D	Nepean Raiders [CJHL]
2009 Entry	143	5	Peter Andersson	D	Vastra Frolunda Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2009 Entry	173	6	Joe Cannata	G	Merrimack College [H-East]
2009 Entry	187	7	Steven Anthony	L	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]
2008 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2008 Entry	10	1	Cody Hodgson	C	Brampton Battalion [OHL]	328	64	78	142	68
2008 Entry	41	2	Yann Sauve	D	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]	8	0	0	0	0
2008 Entry	131	5	Prabh Rai	C	Seattle Thunderbirds [WHL]
2008 Entry	161	6	Mats Josten-Froshaug	C	Linkoping HC Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2008 Entry	191	7	Morgan Clark	G	Red Deer Rebels [WHL]
2007 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2007 Entry	25	1	Patrick White	C	Tri-City Storm [USHL]
2007 Entry	33	2	Taylor Ellington	D	Everett Silvertips [WHL]
2007 Entry	145	5	Charles-Antoine Messier	C	Baie-Comeau Drakkar [QMJHL]
2007 Entry	146	5	Ilya Kablukov	W	CSKA Moscow [Russia]
2007 Entry	176	6	Taylor Matson	C	Des Moines Buccaneers [USHL]
2007 Entry	206	7	Dan Gendur	C	Everett Silvertips [WHL]
2006 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2006 Entry	14	1	Michael Grabner	R	Spokane Chiefs [WHL]	640	175	101	276	110
2006 Entry	82	3	Daniel Rahimi	D	Bjorkloven Jr. [Sweden]
2006 Entry	163	6	Sergei Shirokov	R	CSKA Moscow [Russia]	8	1	0	1	2
2006 Entry	167	6	Juraj Simek	W	Kloten HC [Swiss-A]
2006 Entry	197	7	Evan Fuller	C	Prince George Cougars [WHL]
2005 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2005 Entry	10	1	Luc Bourdon	D	Val d'Or Foreurs [QMJHL]	36	2	0	2	24
2005 Entry	51	2	Mason Raymond	L	Camrose Kodiaks [AJHL]	546	115	136	251	156
2005 Entry	114	4	Alexandre Vincent	G	Chicoutimi Sagueneens [QMJHL]
2005 Entry	138	5	Matt Butcher	C	Chilliwack Chiefs [BCHL]
2005 Entry	185	6	Kris Fredheim	D	Notre Dame Hounds [SJHL]	3	0	0	0	2
2005 Entry	205	7	Mario Bliznak	C	Dubnica Spartak HC [Slovak]	6	1	0	1	0

 

 

 

 

How about Our current GM/POHO?

2020 Entry	52	2	Joel Blomqvist	G	Karpat [SM-liiga]
2020 Entry	77	3	Calle Clang	G	Kristianstad Jrs. (Sweden)
2020 Entry	108	4	Lukas Svejkovsky	C	Medicine Hat Tigers [WHL]
2020 Entry	149	5	Raivis Ansons	R	Baie-Comeau Drakkar [QMJHL]
2020 Entry	170	6	Chase Yoder	F	U.S. National Under-18 Team [USHL]
2019 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2019 Entry	21	1	Samuel Poulin	R	Sherbrooke Phoenix [QMJHL]
2019 Entry	74	3	Nathan Legare	R	Baie-Comeau Drakkar [QMJHL]
2019 Entry	145	5	Judd Caulfield	R	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]
2019 Entry	203	7	Valtteri Puustinen	R	HPK Hameenlinna [SM-liiga]	1	0	1	1	0
2019 Entry	211	7	Santeri Airola	D	Saipa [Finland Jrs.]
2018 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2018 Entry	53	2	Calen Addison	D	Lethbridge Hurricanes [WHL]	23	2	8	10	2
2018 Entry	58	2	Filip Hallander	C	Timra IK [Swe-1]	1	0	0	0	0
2018 Entry	129	5	Justin Almeida	C	Moose Jaw Warriors [WHL]
2018 Entry	177	6	Liam Gorman	F	St. Sebastian's School (Mass. H.S.)
2017 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2017 Entry	51	2	Zachary Lauzon	D	Rouyn-Noranda Huskies [QMJHL]
2017 Entry	93	3	Clayton Phillips	D	Fargo Force [USHL]
2017 Entry	152	5	Jan Drozg	R	Leksand [Sweden-Jrs]
2017 Entry	155	5	Linus Olund	C	Brynas IF Gavle [SweHL]
2017 Entry	186	6	Antti Palojarvi	D	Lukko [Finland-Jrs]
2017 Entry	217	7	Will Reilly	D	R.P.I. [ECAC]
2016 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2016 Entry	55	2	Filip Gustavsson	G	Lulea HF [SweHL]	29	0	1	1	0
2016 Entry	61	2	Kasper Bjorkqvist	R	Blues Jrs (Finland)	6	1	0	1	2
2016 Entry	77	3	Connor Hall	D	Kitchener Rangers [OHL]
2016 Entry	121	4	Ryan Jones	D	Lincoln Stars [USHL]
2016 Entry	151	5	Niclas Almari	D	Jokerit Jrs (Finland)
2016 Entry	181	6	Joe Masonius	D	U. of Connecticut [H-East]
2015 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2015 Entry	46	2	Daniel Sprong	R	Charlottetown Islanders [QMJHL]	203	46	24	70	30
2015 Entry	137	5	Dominik Simon	C	Plzen HC [Czech]	256	22	55	77	80
2015 Entry	167	6	Frederik Tiffels	F	Western Michigan University [NCHC]
2015 Entry	197	7	Nikita Pavlychev	C	Des Moines Buccaneers [USHL]
2014 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2014 Entry	22	1	Kasperi Kapanen	R	KalPa Kuopio [SM-liiga]	326	64	93	157	78
2014 Entry	113	4	Sam Lafferty	C	Deerfield Academy (Mass. H.S.)	145	13	24	37	90
2014 Entry	145	5	Anthony Angello	C	Omaha Lancers [USHL]	31	3	2	5	14
2014 Entry	173	6	Jaden Lindo	R	Owen Sound Attack [OHL]
2014 Entry	203	7	Jeff Taylor	D	Union College [ECAC]
2013 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2013 Entry	44	2	Tristan Jarry	G	Edmonton Oil Kings [WHL]	163	0	8	8	18
2013 Entry	77	3	Jake Guentzel	L	Sioux City Musketeers [USHL]	379	164	182	346	168
2013 Entry	119	4	Ryan Segalla	D	Salisbury (Conn. H.S.)
2013 Entry	164	6	Dane Birks	D	Merritt Centennials [BCHL]
2013 Entry	179	6	Blaine Byron	C	Smiths Falls Bears [CCHL]
2013 Entry	209	7	Troy Josephs	C	St. Michael's Buzzers [OJHL]
2012 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2012 Entry	8	1	Derrick Pouliot	D	Portland Winterhawks [WHL]	213	8	44	52	85
2012 Entry	22	1	Olli Maatta	D	London Knights [OHL]	539	31	110	141	134
2012 Entry	52	2	Teddy Blueger	C	Shattuck St. Mary's [Minn. H.S]	205	31	51	82	66
2012 Entry	81	3	Oskar Sundqvist	C	Skelleftea AIK Jr. [Swe-Jr]	293	41	59	100	121
2012 Entry	83	3	Matt Murray	G	Soo Greyhounds [OHL]	247	0	5	5	10
2012 Entry	92	4	Matia Marcantuoni	C	Kitchener Rangers [OHL]
2012 Entry	113	4	Sean Maguire	G	Powell River Kings [BCHL]
2012 Entry	143	5	Clark Seymour	D	Peterborough Petes [OHL]
2012 Entry	173	6	Anton Zlobin	L	Shawinigan Cataractes [QMJHL]

 

 

Montreal? and Boston?

2020 Entry	58	2	Mason Lohrei	D	Green Bay Gamblers [USHL]
2020 Entry	89	3	Trevor Kuntar	L	Youngstown Phantoms [USHL]
2020 Entry	151	5	Mason Langenbrunner	D	Eden Prairie (Minn. H.S.)
2020 Entry	182	6	Riley Duran	C	Lawrence Academy (Mass. H.S.)
2019 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2019 Entry	30	1	John Beecher	C	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]
2019 Entry	92	3	Quinn Olson	L	Okotoks Oilers [AJHL]
2019 Entry	154	5	Roman Bychkov	D	Yaroslavl [Russia Jrs.]
2019 Entry	185	6	Matias Mantykivi	F	Saipa [Finland Jrs.]
2019 Entry	192	7	Jake Schmaltz	F	Chicago Steel [USHL]
2018 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2018 Entry	57	2	Axel Andersson	D	Djurgarden-2 (Sweden Jrs.)
2018 Entry	77	3	Jakub Lauko	C	Chomutov Pirati [Czech]	4	0	1	1	2
2018 Entry	119	4	Curtis Hall	C	Youngstown Phantoms [USHL]
2018 Entry	181	6	Dustyn McFaul	D	Pickering Panthers [OJHL]
2018 Entry	212	7	Pavel Shen	C	Khanty-Mansiysk Yugra [KHL]
2017 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2017 Entry	18	1	Urho Vaakanainen	D	JyP HT Jyvaskyla [SM-liiga]	45	0	8	8	12
2017 Entry	53	2	Jack Studnicka	C	Oshawa Generals [OHL]	38	1	6	7	10
2017 Entry	111	4	Jeremy Swayman	G	Sioux Falls Stampede [USHL]	53	0	0	0	6
2017 Entry	173	6	Cedric Pare	C	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]
2017 Entry	195	7	Victor Berglund	D	MODO [Sweden-Jrs]
2017 Entry	204	7	Daniel Bukac	D	Brandon Wheat Kings [WHL]
2016 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2016 Entry	14	1	Charlie McAvoy	D	Boston University [H-East]	313	34	144	178	243
2016 Entry	29	1	Trent Frederic	C	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]	124	13	12	25	144
2016 Entry	49	2	Ryan Lindgren	D	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]	200	6	41	47	144
2016 Entry	135	5	Joona Koppanen	L	Ilves Jrs (Finland)
2016 Entry	136	5	Cameron Clarke	D	Lone Star Brahmas [NAHL]
2016 Entry	165	6	Oskar Steen	C	Farjestad Jrs (Sweden)	23	2	4	6	8
2015 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2015 Entry	13	1	Jakub Zboril	D	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]	60	0	12	12	22
2015 Entry	14	1	Jake DeBrusk	L	Swift Current Broncos [WHL]	326	94	87	181	67
2015 Entry	15	1	Zachary Senyshyn	R	Soo Greyhounds [OHL]	16	1	2	3	4
2015 Entry	37	2	Brandon Carlo	D	Tri-City Americans [WHL]	405	21	49	70	231
2015 Entry	45	2	Jakob Forsbacka-Karlsson	C	Omaha Lancers [USHL]	29	3	6	9	2
2015 Entry	52	2	Jeremy Lauzon	D	Rouyn-Noranda Huskies [QMJHL]	145	5	13	18	158
2015 Entry	75	3	Daniel Vladar	G	Kladno Jrs. (Czech Rep.)	30	0	1	1	0
2015 Entry	105	4	Jesse Gabrielle	L	Regina Pats [WHL]
2015 Entry	165	6	Cameron Hughes	C	U. of Wisconsin [Big-10]	2	0	0	0	0
2015 Entry	195	7	Jack Becker	C	Mahtomedi (Minn. H.S.)
2014 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2014 Entry	25	1	David Pastrnak	R	Sodertalje SK [Swe-1]	516	244	270	514	219
2014 Entry	56	2	Ryan Donato	C	Dexter School (Mass H.S.)	260	52	58	110	82
2014 Entry	116	4	Danton Heinen	L	Surrey Eagles [BCHL]	353	65	95	160	62
2014 Entry	146	5	Anders Bjork	L	U.S. National Under-18 Team [USHL]	211	24	29	53	42
2014 Entry	206	7	Emil Johansson	D	HV71 (Sweden Jrs.)
2013 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2013 Entry	60	2	Linus Arnesson	D	Djurgarden Jrs. (Sweden)
2013 Entry	90	3	Peter Cehlarik	R	Lulea Jrs. (Sweden)	40	5	6	11	10
2013 Entry	120	4	Ryan Fitzgerald	C	Valley Jr. Warriors [EJHL]
2013 Entry	150	5	Wiley Sherman	D	Hotchkiss (Conn. H.S.)
2013 Entry	180	6	Anton Blidh	L	Frolunda Jrs. (Sweden)	71	4	8	12	37
2013 Entry	210	7	Mitchell Dempsey	L	Soo Greyhounds [OHL]
2012 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2012 Entry	24	1	Malcolm Subban	G	Belleville Bulls [OHL]	86	0	0	0	6
2012 Entry	85	3	Matt Grzelcyk	D	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]	309	19	81	100	172
2012 Entry	131	5	Seth Griffith	C	London Knights [OHL]	80	8	11	19	24
2012 Entry	145	5	Cody Payne	C	Plymouth Whalers [OHL]
2012 Entry	175	6	Matt Benning	D	Spruce Grove Saints [AJHL]	374	16	61	77	205
2012 Entry	205	7	Colton Hargrove	L	Fargo Force [USHL]

 

 

2020 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2020 Entry	16	1	Kaiden Guhle	D	Prince Albert Raiders [WHL]	6	0	2	2	7
2020 Entry	47	2	Luke Tuch	F	U.S. National Under-18 Team [USHL]
2020 Entry	48	2	Jan Mysak	C	Hamilton Bulldogs [OHL]
2020 Entry	102	4	Jack Smith	C	St. Cloud Cathedral (Wisc. H.S.)
2020 Entry	109	4	Blake Biondi	C	Hermantown (Minn. H.S.)
2020 Entry	124	4	Sean Farrell	L	Chicago Steel [USHL]
2020 Entry	136	5	Jakub Dobes	G	Omaha Lancers [USHL]
2020 Entry	171	6	Alexander Gordin	R	St. Petersburg Jrs. (Russia)
2019 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2019 Entry	15	1	Cole Caufield	R	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]	83	31	22	53	12
2019 Entry	46	2	Jayden Struble	D	St. Sebastiens [U.S. H.S.]
2019 Entry	64	3	Mattias Norlinder	D	MODO [Sweden Jrs.]	6	0	1	1	2
2019 Entry	77	3	Gianni Fairbrother	D	Everett Silvertips [WHL]
2019 Entry	126	5	Jacob Leguerrier	D	Soo Greyhounds [OHL]
2019 Entry	131	5	Rhett Pitlick	L	Chaska [Minn H.S.]
2019 Entry	138	5	Frederik Dichow	G	Vojens [Denmark Jrs.]
2019 Entry	170	6	Arsen Khisamutdinov	R	Nizhnekamsk [Russia Jrs.]
2019 Entry	201	7	Rafael Harvey-Pinard	L	Rouyn-Noranda Huskies [QMJHL]	4	1	0	1	0
2019 Entry	206	7	Kieran Ruscheinski	D	Calgary Northstars Midget AAA
2018 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2018 Entry	3	1	Jesperi Kotkaniemi	C	Assat Pori [SM-liiga]	242	34	59	93	100
2018 Entry	35	2	Jesse Ylonen	R	Espoo (Finland Jrs)	15	2	3	5	2
2018 Entry	38	2	Alexander Romanov	D	CSKA-2 (Russia Jrs.)	139	4	15	19	76
2018 Entry	56	2	Jacob Olofsson	C	Timra IK [Swe-1]
2018 Entry	66	3	Cam Hillis	C	Guelph Storm [OHL]	1	0	0	0	0
2018 Entry	71	3	Jordan Harris	D	Kimball-Union (New Hamp. H.S.)	16	1	1	2	10
2018 Entry	97	4	Allan McShane	C	Oshawa Generals [OHL]
2018 Entry	123	4	Jack Gorniak	L	West Salem (Wisc. H.S.)
2018 Entry	128	5	Cole Fonstad	L	Prince Albert Raiders [WHL]
2018 Entry	133	5	Samuel Houde	C	Chicoutimi Sagueneens [QMJHL]
2018 Entry	190	7	Brett Stapley	C	Vernon Vipers [BCHL]
2017 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2017 Entry	25	1	Ryan Poehling	C	St. Cloud State [NCHC]	90	14	10	24	10
2017 Entry	56	2	Josh Brook	D	Moose Jaw Warriors [WHL]
2017 Entry	58	2	Joni Ikonen	C	Frolunda [Sweden-Jr]
2017 Entry	68	3	Scott Walford	D	Victoria Royals [WHL]
2017 Entry	87	3	Cale Fleury	D	Kootenay Ice [WHL]	50	1	0	1	6
2017 Entry	149	5	Jarret Tyszka	D	Seattle Thunderbirds [WHL]
2017 Entry	199	7	Cayden Primeau	G	Lincoln Stars [USHL]	18	0	0	0	0
2016 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2016 Entry	9	1	Mikhail Sergachev	D	Windsor Spitfires [OHL]	368	36	142	178	221
2016 Entry	70	3	William Bitten	C	Flint Firebirds [OHL]
2016 Entry	100	4	Victor Mete	D	London Knights [OHL]	238	5	38	43	42
2016 Entry	124	5	Casey Staum	D	Grand Rapids (Minn. H.S.)
2016 Entry	160	6	Michael Pezzetta	L	Sudbury Wolves [OHL]	51	5	6	11	81
2016 Entry	187	7	Arvid Henrikson	D	AIK Jrs (Sweden)
2015 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2015 Entry	26	1	Noah Juulsen	D	Everett Silvertips [WHL]	58	2	8	10	10
2015 Entry	87	3	Lukas Vejdemo	C	Djurgardens Jrs. (Sweden)	13	2	0	2	0
2015 Entry	131	5	Matt Bradley	C	Medicine Hat Tigers [WHL]
2015 Entry	177	6	Simon Bourque	D	Rimouski Oceanic [QMJHL]
2015 Entry	207	7	Jeremiah Addison	L	Ottawa 67's [OHL]
2014 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2014 Entry	26	1	Nikita Scherbak	R	Saskatoon Blades [WHL]	37	6	2	8	10
2014 Entry	73	3	Brett Lernout	D	Swift Current Broncos [WHL]	21	0	1	1	6
2014 Entry	125	5	Nikolas Koberstein	D	Olds Grizzlys [AJHL]
2014 Entry	147	5	Daniel Audette	C	Sherbrooke Phoenix [QMJHL]
2014 Entry	177	6	Hayden Hawkey	G	Omaha Lancers [USHL]
2014 Entry	207	7	Jake Evans	C	St. Michael's Buzzers [OJHL]	138	18	28	46	51
2013 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2013 Entry	25	1	Michael McCarron	R	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]	128	9	13	22	196
2013 Entry	34	2	Jacob De La Rose	C	Leksands IF [Swe-1]	242	13	25	38	84
2013 Entry	36	2	Zachary Fucale	G	Halifax Mooseheads [QMJHL]	4	0	0	0	0
2013 Entry	55	2	Artturi Lehkonen	L	KalPa Kuopio [SM-liiga]	418	82	81	163	118
2013 Entry	71	3	Connor Crisp	C	Erie Otters [OHL]
2013 Entry	86	3	Sven Andrighetto	R	Rouyn-Noranda Huskies [QMJHL]	216	31	52	83	42
2013 Entry	116	4	Martin Reway	L	Gatineau Olympiques [QMJHL]
2013 Entry	176	6	Jeremy Gregoire	C	Baie-Comeau Drakkar [QMJHL]
2012 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2012 Entry	3	1	Alex Galchenyuk	C	Sarnia Sting [OHL]	643	146	208	354	253
2012 Entry	33	2	Sebastian Collberg	R	Frolunda HC [SEL]
2012 Entry	51	2	Dalton Thrower	D	Saskatoon Blades [WHL]
2012 Entry	64	3	Tim Bozon	L	Kamloops Blazers [WHL]
2012 Entry	94	4	Brady Vail	C	Windsor Spitfires [OHL]
2012 Entry	122	5	Charles Hudon	L	Chicoutimi Sagueneens [QMJHL]	125	14	27	41	56
2012 Entry	154	6	Erik Nystrom	L	MODO Hockey Ornskoldsvik [SEL]
2011 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2011 Entry	17	1	Nathan Beaulieu	D	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]	422	12	82	94	305
2011 Entry	97	4	Josiah Didier	D	Cedar Rapids RoughRiders [USHL]
2011 Entry	108	4	Olivier Archambault	L	Val d'Or Foreurs [QMJHL]
2011 Entry	113	4	Magnus Nygren	D	Farjestads BK Karlstad [SEL]
2011 Entry	138	5	Darren Dietz	D	Saskatoon Blades [WHL]	13	1	4	5	13
2011 Entry	168	6	Daniel Pribyl	C	Sparta Jrs. (Czech Rep)
2011 Entry	198	7	Colin Sullivan	D	Avon Old Farms H.S. (Conn.)

 

 

 

contracts expire, the cap will rise. not being able to draft, sends you to purgatory. Just wait for it, these teams are absolutely f***ed and thats just a few to name. But Hey our GM missed in a couple drafts and gave up a couple 1sts for roster players and we're the ones heading to purgatory.....

 

Allvin and JR had their moment to make  an impact on the future and they chose to resign Miller. Thats not on JB, he handed them valuable assets that he never had. 

JT Miller, Boeser, Garland and a few others with decent value, plus some prospects.

Relax, Benning was a pos and dishonest.

 

Good riddance for the club.

[Timråfan]

2 hours ago, DSVII said:

Again, value of draft position and context explains this. Someone also has a short memory of what STL and Tampa did in 2008-2014. 

 

It was the double whammy of Gillis trading away too many picks to fuel the SC run, and Tampa Bay was rebuilding at the time remember? St Louis hoarded more picks than Gillis did during that time as well.  Different contexts.

 

Here, let me graph this for you.

 

Let's assume you agree to this premise. That in a draft, your position determines the probability of finding an NHL ready player.

 

As you can see, even late in the first round, the probability of landing elite talent decreases expontentially.

 

 

From this declining exponential curve, we can create a value chart for how much value you can place on each position of the draft to line out this curve.

 

This is empirically also accepted, if you want to move up in the draft, you have to trade at least two or more picks to equal the value of picking even a few positions up in the first round. https://soundofhockey.com/2022/06/06/examining-the-value-of-nhl-draft-picks/

 

 

Let's put these values over the draft picks and overlay them with actual picks made by the teams with picks they had or traded for, and for good measure, plop winning percentage over the graph. https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/index.html
 

Note: The line represents the draft capital of the default picks of inherited by a 15th place team, and represents a points % of 58% on the season (95 pts) for an arbitrary playoff marker.

 

So....

Pink bars = Draft value based on actual picks made by teams in that draft year and their assigned values on the table above

Blue line = Team winning % in the regular season

Grey line = 95 pts percentage for playoffs and the average draft capital of a team that has 7 picks from the 15th spot of each round.

 

 

Gillis Canucks 2008-2014 (here you can see that we traded picks away to fuel that President's trophy run and a higher team winning %) - again you can see how much more draft capital Benning had to jumpstart his regime vs Gillis for the 2014 NHL draft 

 

 

What did St Louis do during the same time frame Gillis was GM? (looks like they were hoarding more picks to retool/rebuild) playing at below a 95pt pace, naturally they will draft higher, have more picks and thus get more prospects than Gillis.

 

What was Tampa doing during that same time frame? Again, building up draft capital for a rebuild and bottoming out in the 2013 draft year

 

Detroit is what happens when you are trying to sell for one last hurrah with Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Lidstrom propping you up. Detroit drafts better than Gillis for sure but as you can see they even had more draft value than van for a few draft years early in Gillis' reign.

 

Care to see what the graph looks like under Benning's tenure? Again, this is the most infuriating part. Benning can draft well but he never loaded up on picks the same way elite teams like Tampa and STL had during their retool years. As good as Benning is, he can't produce the same results with one 3rd round pick while teams like STL had two 2nd rounders during their similar phase

 

Usually a rebuilding team should accumulate more draft capital than a team that finishes in 15th place. Benning only did that once in 2017 and that was because he was gifted a free 2nd from Torts.

 

This is what Sakic did over the same time frame. He definitely picked his spots to load up on draft capital to coincide with his team's downturns.

 

Toronto really illustrates how much a two year tear down can help at least get your team set up to consistently go above the playoff line.

Schmidt was $5.95 mil

Tanev signed for $4.5 mil

 

Hell yeah i'd take Tanev over Schmidt, even if that Jfresh chart had him 1.0 above Tanev. And put that $1.45 mil savings to signing Toffoli.

 

 

 

Because it was a hole that was created through an unforced error, when he literally had the bird sitting in his hand right there, and that hole from 2020 persists today. Markstrom you can see the succession plan. Where was the RHD succession plan?

 

Aging Toffoli? He was 28 years old at the time of his signing, a better bet than the 30+ yr old signings Benning made up until then. Considering we just paid a 2nd and prospect for him, it represented value leaving out of the door either way.

 

You're signing a cup winning goalie four years after his run in his thirties, I wouldn't say that was a good bet. That was a hallmark of Benning, signing players that were good some  years ago, not right now.

 

Please point it out again, because that string of words you put together isn't making sense after mentioning Marky.

 

is the point of this to convince me that I should pay $1.5 mil more and an extra year in a flat cap world for Schmidt? Because it's not working.

 
and how come a one year gap where the younger guy is 29 is banking on youth but signing a 28 year old winger is considered an aging player.

 

Definitely no foresight, considering Virtanen/Holtby were bought out a year later and Schmidt shipped out as well for a 3rd. Every move he made for the 2020 offseason didn't even have a shelf life of 1 season, so year i'd say no foresight. 

 

 

 

I hope the fans of Benning really read what you wrote hear. 
 

 

[MaxVerstappen33]

11 hours ago, Timråfan said:

Relax, Benning was a pos and dishonest.

 

Good riddance for the club.

Where would Jim Rutherford be on your list of GM candidates if you were the owner ? If we had a poll before he was hired, nobody would have included him in the poll.  And if they did, he would get the least votes. Nobody wanted Jim Rutherford but that's what we got. 

[Timråfan]

44 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

Where would Jim Rutherford be on your list of GM candidates if you were the owner ? If we had a poll before he was hired, nobody would have included him in the poll.  And if they did, he would get the least votes. Nobody wanted Jim Rutherford but that's what we got. 

JR is at least up to date and seems to be honest.

The honesty is much more important than you think. 
Since FA maybe isn’t the smoothest owner in NHL he probably get the bottom tier of GMs if JR is among them… I don’t know.

[AnthonyG]

18 hours ago, DSVII said:

Again, value of draft position and context explains this. Someone also has a short memory of what STL and Tampa did in 2008-2014. 

 

It was the double whammy of Gillis trading away too many picks to fuel the SC run, and Tampa Bay was rebuilding at the time remember? St Louis hoarded more picks than Gillis did during that time as well.  Different contexts.

 

Here, let me graph this for you.

 

Let's assume you agree to this premise. That in a draft, your position determines the probability of finding an NHL ready player.

 

 

As you can see, even late in the first round, the probability of landing elite talent decreases expontentially.

 

 

 

From this declining exponential curve, we can create a value chart for how much value you can place on each position of the draft to line out this curve.

 

 

Gillis Canucks 2008-2014 (here you can see that we traded picks away to fuel that President's trophy run and a higher team winning %) - again you can see how much more draft capital Benning had to jumpstart his regime vs Gillis for the 2014 NHL draft 

 

 

 

What did St Louis do during the same time frame Gillis was GM? (looks like they were hoarding more picks to retool/rebuild) playing at below a 95pt pace, naturally they will draft higher, have more picks and thus get more prospects than Gillis.

 

 

What was Tampa doing during that same time frame? Again, building up draft capital for a rebuild and bottoming out in the 2013 draft year

 

 

 

 

I actually have quite good memory of STL and TBL. Do you??

I'll start with STL

2010-2011 - 20th - No 1st round pick, missed playoffs

- 46th Joel Edmundson

- 88th Jordan Binnington

2011-2012 - 3rd 

- 86th Colton Parayko

2013-2014 - 4th

- 21st Robbi Fabbri

- 33rd Ivan Barbashev

- 94th Ville Husso

-  146th Sammy Blais

2014-2015 - 4th - No 1st round pick

- 56th Vince Dunn

2015-2016 - 3rd

- 26th Tage Thompson

- 35th Jordan Kyrou

2016-17 - 10th

- 20th Robert Thomas

 

Lmao Thats just STL, I'm just getting warmed up lmfao. Whats the excuse for late round picks?? STL has how many key players that were drafted VERY late in the 1st or outside the 1st round... That won a cup? STL has been a top team for almost a decade. Still producing NHL talent, unlike our boy GMMG. They've also had Backes in the 2nd, Soderberg 2nd, Oshie 24th, Stempniak 5th rnd, Polak in the 6th, Perron 26th

 

Alright, now onto TBL.

 

2010-11 - 8th

- 27th Valdislav Namestnikov

- 58th NIIIIIIIIIKITTTTAAAAAAAA KUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCHEROVVVVVVV

- 208th Ondrej Palat

2013-14 - 8th

- 79th Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaydennnnnn POOIINNNNNNNNNNT

2014-15 - 5th - No 1st round pick

- 72nd AAAAAAANTHONYYYYYYY CIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRELLLLLLLLIIIIIIII

2015-16 - 12th 

- 118th Ross Colton

 

 

Another handful of impactful Cup winners, drafted outside the 1st. Also Killorn 3rd round. 

 

Your argument about draft position is looking weaker and weaker... Now to really crush excuses of strength of draft position time for Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA and Washington.

ALLLLLLLLL these teams are Stanley Cup winners allllll of these teams found players late in the 1st or beyond. Not just one player, but many.

 

Lets go with Sh*ttsburgh first 16 straight playoff appearances.

2006-07 - 10th

- 78th Robert Bortuzzo (won a cup with STL)

- 141st Jake Muzzin (won a cup with LAK)

2009-2010 - 8th

- 80th Bryan Rust - Key player in their cup runs

2011-12 - 4th

- 22nd Olli Maatta

- 81st Oskar Sundqvist (Another STL cup winner)

- 83rd Matt Murray

2012-13 2nd - No 1st round pick

- 44th Tristan Jarry

- 77th Jake Guentzel 

 

Just a reminder, Jim Rutherford did not get hired in PIT until 2014. Allvin wasnt hired until AFTER the 2012 draft. So dont get ahead of yourself and start thinking these guys could draft. 

 

No point in going beyond 2012-13 because Allvin and JR didnt really find anything.

 

Okay who's next?? Washington?? SUUUUUUURE

2005-06 - 27th

- 177th Matthieu Perrault

2007-08 - 12th

- 27th John Carlson

- 93rd Brayden Holtby

2008-09 - 4th

- 24th Marcus Johansson

- 55th Dmitri Orlov

- 85th Cody Eakin

2009-10 - 1st

- 26th Evgeny Kuznetsov

-112th Phillip Grubauer

2011-12 - 15th

-11th Filip Forsberg

- 16th Tom Wilson

- 77th Chandler Stephenson

2012-2013 - 10th

- 23rd Andre Burakovsky

 

You cant keep blaming draft position.

 

Sh*tcago up next and I'm going right back to 2002

2001-02 - 9th

- 54th  Duncan Keith

- 156th James Wisniewski

2002-03 - 18th

- 14th Brent Seabrook

- 52nd Corey Crawford

- 245th Big booty Byfuglien

2003-04 - 29th

- 32nd Dave Bolland

- 41st Brian Bickell

- 214th Troy Brouwer

2004-05 - Lockout

- 108th Niklas Hjalmarsson

2008-09 - 6th (1 spot ahead of Van)

- 149th Marcus Kruger

2009-10 - 3rd

- 24th Kevin Hayes

2010-11 - 13th

- 26th Phillip Danault

- 43rd Brandon Saad

- 139th Andrew Shaw

2011-12 - 10th

- 18th Teuvo Teravainen

- 169th Vinny Hinistroza

2012-13 - 1st

- 30th Ryan Hartman

- 121st Tyler Motte

2015-16 - 5th - No 1st round pick

- 39th Alex DeBrincat

 

 

I'm having a real hard time believing its impossible to win, keep a winning culture going and draft NHL talent. Impact players too, who played instrumental roles in Stanley Cup runs/wins.

 

Alright LA Kings

2002-03 - 17th

- 13th Dustin Brown

- 26th Brian Boyle

2004-05 - Lockout 

- 11th Anze Kopitar

- 72nd Jonathan Quick

2005-06 - 16th

- 17th Trevor Lewis

2006-07 - 28th

- 61st Wayne Simmonds

- 95th Alec Martinez

- 109th Dwight King

2008-09 - 26th 

- 35th Kyle Clifford

- 84th Nicolas Delaurier

- 186th Jordan Nolan

- 198th Nic Dowd

2009-10 - 9th

- 47th Tyler Toffoli

2011-12 - 13th

- 30th Tanner Pearson - Last pick in the 1st round. 

- 151st Collin Miller

2012-13 - 7th - No 1st round pick

- Dominik Kubalik

2013-14 - 10th

- 29th Andrian Kempe

2014-15 - 18th - No 1st round pick

- Erik Cernak

 

 

So your fancy little graphs tell me its almost impossible to find NHLers as the draft gets deeper and deeper.... Yet I'm looking at the draft history of every cup winner the last decade and I'm seeing countless NHLers being found later in rounds, while competing, contending and winning Stanley cups..... SOOOOO Like... How about Gillis? Why couldnt he do it? How was the draft capital for a lot of these teams without 1st round picks, bottom 5 1st round picks.... Yet NHLers are coming out of every draft regardless of the round. 

 

 

18 hours ago, DSVII said:

Detroit is what happens when you are trying to sell for one last hurrah with Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Lidstrom propping you up. Detroit drafts better than Gillis for sure but as you can see they even had more draft value than van for a few draft years early in Gillis' reign.

Detroit is the epitome of late round drafting success. They found Henrik Zetterberg without a 1st, 2nd or 3rd. They found him in the 7th. Pavel Datsyuk in the 6th, Holmstrom in the 10th round, Kronwall 29OA, Hudler, Fleischmann 2nd round, Filpulla 3rd and then Ericsson in the 9th, Franzen in the 3rd with no 1st or 2nd round picks. Abdelkader in the 2nd Helm in the 5th, Nyquist in the 4th..... Dude Detroit is elite and drafting late. They spend a period of like 10 years with only 3 1st round picks and they still crushed it.

 

18 hours ago, DSVII said:

This is what Sakic did over the same time frame. He definitely picked his spots to load up on draft capital to coincide with his team's downturns.

 

 

Toronto really illustrates how much a two year tear down can help at least get your team set up to consistently go above the playoff line.

Drop the Sakic thing dude, he walked into a job with VALUABLE assets, a 1OA a 2OA a 3OA... ROR, Duchene, Mackinnon, Landeskog. You cant compare the two.

 

 

Toronto landed a generation goal scorer. I already disproved your tear down of Bozak and all these other guys they "got rid of" 3/4 were LTIR or walked in free agency. Outside of Matthews and Marner, what else did they draft? How's the soon to be Matthews succession plan lookin in 2 years?

Also 2 year tear down? 

2005-06	Toronto Maple Leafs	NHL	Northeast	82	41	33	0	1	7	90	0.549	257	270	1398	19408	Pat Quinn	Out of Playoffs
2006-07	Toronto Maple Leafs	NHL	Northeast	82	40	31	0	4	7	91	0.555	258	269	1139	19487	Paul Maurice	Out of Playoffs
2007-08	Toronto Maple Leafs	NHL	Northeast	82	36	35	0	7	4	83	0.506	231	260	1087	19434	Paul Maurice	Out of Playoffs
2008-09	Toronto Maple Leafs	NHL	Northeast	82	34	35	0	6	7	81	0.494	250	293	1125	19312	Ron Wilson	Out of Playoffs
2009-10	Toronto Maple Leafs	NHL	Northeast	82	30	38	0	10	4	74	0.451	214	267	1091	19260	Ron Wilson	Out of Playoffs
2010-11	Toronto Maple Leafs	NHL	Northeast	82	37	34	0	5	6	85	0.518	218	251	985	19354	Ron Wilson	Out of Playoffs
2011-12	Toronto Maple Leafs	NHL	Northeast	82	35	37	0	5	5	80	0.488	231	264		19507	Wilson, Carlyle {+}	Out of Playoffs
2012-13	Toronto Maple Leafs	NHL	Northeast	48	26	17	0	0	5	57	0.594	145	133		19426	Randy Carlyle	Lost in round 1
2013-14	Toronto Maple Leafs	NHL	Atlantic	82	38	36	0	4	4	84	0.512	231	256	1040	19447	Randy Carlyle	Out of Playoffs
2014-15	Toronto Maple Leafs	NHL	Atlantic	82	30	44	0	3	5	68	0.415	211	262		19063	Carlyle, Horachek {+}	Out of Playoffs
2015-16	Toronto Maple Leafs	NHL	Atlantic	82	29	42	0	5	6	69	0.421	198	246		19158	Mike Babcock	Out of Playoffs

 

Lookin like the Arizona Coyotes with that amount of playoff appearances in 11 years

 

 

 

18 hours ago, DSVII said:

Schmidt was $5.95 mil

Tanev signed for $4.5 mil

 

Hell yeah i'd take Tanev over Schmidt, even if that Jfresh chart had him 1.0 above Tanev. And put that $1.45 mil savings to signing Toffoli.

So you're deflecting from the original point YOU made

Tanev+Toffoli+Markstrom were only 2.25mil more than Schmidt+Virtanen+Holtby

- Schmidt was an upgrade and the fancy little JFresh cards showed that. for 1.5 mil on Schmidt we saved 2mil on Toffoli and Markstrom. Cap savings right? Cap space comes at a premium, like you said. Isn't it all about managing cap? plus those 3 came with waaay more term. So you're arguing against your own point about term and cap. Signing those guys would have been a bad move, especially with all the negotiations we had coming up within the next 2 years. We'd be locked into 16mil roughly, when we need to deal with RFA negotiations.

 

Also that 1.45mil in savings on Tanev would land you a 9.75mil cap hit between the two. Whereas Schmidt and Virtanen combined would still come in at 8.5mil. 1.25mil towards your upcoming contract negotiations. Foresight. But hey, if you want to use every extra million you can find to keep older players, by all means go for it. JB was creating cap spaces while not completely sacrificing the players he was losing/letting go. He upgraded on Tanev, but banked on Virtanen who had youth and just came off an 18g 18a season over Toffoli. 

 

18 hours ago, DSVII said:

Aging Toffoli? He was 28 years old at the time of his signing, a better bet than the 30+ yr old signings Benning made up until then. Considering we just paid a 2nd and prospect for him, it represented value leaving out of the door either way.

 

You're signing a cup winning goalie four years after his run in his thirties, I wouldn't say that was a good bet. That was a hallmark of Benning, signing players that were good some  years ago, not right now.

 

 
and how come a one year gap where the younger guy is 29 is banking on youth but signing a 28 year old winger is considered an aging player.

 

Definitely no foresight, considering Virtanen/Holtby were bought out a year later and Schmidt shipped out as well for a 3rd. Every move he made for the 2020 offseason didn't even have a shelf life of 1 season, so year i'd say no foresight. 

 

 

 

Also when it comes to age D>G>F - Defense is timing and space, knowing where to be and when to be there. You rely less on speed and more on experience/IQ. Goalies are similar and its why you see more goalies and D playing into their late 30's and 40's than Forwards, because FORWARDs rely on speed, getting to the open areas. Its harder to separate yourself than close the gap. 

 

I see Fleury still goin and getting good $. Smith was well past his prime.  Holtby was signed for 2 years. TWO. That was it, that was to mentor Demko. Now we have a shakey Demko who has zero veteran experience to lean on. He's having a real tough time right now. Would be nice to have a guy like Holtby to put his arm around him and talk him through it.

 

Sorry, which one year gap is banking on youth? Jake Virtanen's youth over Toffoli's. 24>27. Especially how JV was trending after 2019-20. 18g 18a. In a flat cap world, seems like hoping the cheaper, younger option who's providing nearly as many goals is the smarter choice long term.

 

No foresight considering JV ran into legal issues. How the f*** is that fair dude? Is Benning supposed to see the future with COVID and JVs sexual assault accusations? Like wtf man? You stick it to him for not seeing the future. Not like he lost anything for Schmidt. He gained "draft capital"? Sometimes sh*t doesnt work out, dont wear for too long. There was comments by Schmidt that were offsetting, Holtby was having a tough time.

 

And like you've agreed, Francesco Aquaweenie demands playoffs and is pretty much holding a gun to every GM's head we've had. So is it fair to judge any of them for rushing things when their job is on the line from the getgo.

 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, DSVII said:

LA sports riots makes ours look like a walk in the park. And try going into Boston and New England wearing anything New York related and you'll see just how reasonable our fanbase is.

 

https://metro.co.uk/2018/02/05/here-are-five-american-cities-which-rioted-after-sporting-success-and-defeat-7289493/

 

Deflection. And strawman. 

First off, wrong sport. Secondly Hockey is our #1 sport, Football is USA's #1 sport. Same pressure, different sports. When it comes to hockey in the states, its nowhere near the pressure we have. Deflection and Strawman. Thats not an apples to apples comparrison.

 

17 hours ago, DSVII said:

The point of bringing up Tkachuk was, drafting BPA is still the way to go over positional needs, because even if the person wants out, you can still get a good return for them.

 

Would you rather have Huberdeau and Weegar? Or Lammiko?

 

Oh we're playing the would you rather game eh.

 

Would you rather a 30y/o on a 8 year 10.5mil deal and a soon to be 30 y/o Weegar on a 8year 6.25mil, or 16.75mil in cap space?

ORRR would you rather Miles Liberati or Mackenzie Weegar 

7	205	Vancouver	Miles Liberati	D	London Knights [OHL]
7	206	Florida	MacKenzie Weegar	D	Halifax Mooseheads [QMJHL]	311	27	97	124	259	2022-23

 

YIKES. Another BIG miss by MG. How bout that for strength of draft position? 7th round 7 picks from the bottom. 

PS isnt that kind of the move you want to avoid??? adding older players on LONNGGGG deals, for your youth? Sure they got a 1st, but like your lovely graphs showed, a late 1st is less likely to be an NHLer. Like wouldnt you agree that Calgary is kinda in that area where they should start retooling before its too late? Like look at their last 3 signings. 23mil for the next 7 years on Kadri, Huberdeau and Weegar, Weegar may be fine for 5-7 years, but the other 2, I'd be concerned about how they age.

17 hours ago, DSVII said:

There was no foresight with the Toffoli trade, no attempt to even contact him to sign even with cap space available.

 

The JT Miller trade was a gamble, made in the similar mindset as Brandon Sutter. A 3C on a high octane offense who could potentially put it together. he was lucky it worked out. There is no foresight because it put us into a future cap crunch that we are experiencing now.

 

TBL bent JB over on Miller. They were in a cap crunch, no one else was willing to flip a 1st for JT. They then used the 1st to get back to back cups by trading for Blake Coleman. 

Make no mistake, JB had a hand in contributing to both Penguins and TBL back to back cups because of his inefficent trades for their soon-to-be overpaid 3Cs. 

Once again you deflect from the March 4th 2020 announcement of a 3.5-7.5mil cap increase that became frozen 2 weeks later. Can you explain that? Do you really think we would have let him go or Tanev go if the cap increased? Why do you keep deflecting from that?

 

How did TBL bend JB over? He took a 1st and a 2nd, got JT Miller and PA and JR could have flipped JT for a 1st, 2nd plus a top prospect. But THEY botched it. That would have been massive value for us. But nooooooo. They decided to hang on. That could have been like a Duchene or ROR trade that helped the future.

 

Someone is going to make a trade to help someone win a cup every single year. Its about what each organization needs. Did JB lose to PIT or TBL in those playoff runs? Didnt think so.

 

Back to the main point.

 

 

Give it up with the Toffoli crap. You literally have no ground to stand on, you preach space, but blame Benning for making lateral moves with lower cap hit i.e. JV+Schmidt+Holtby at 12.8mil with a 2y+2y+4y term remaining in a flat cap climate >  14.75mil with a 4y+4y+6y term. A flat cap royally screwed him and if you honestly believe he should have seen COVID coming, please hand over your crystal ball to JR and PA so they can draft an NHLer. JB would not have let Toffoli or Tanev walk with an increase in the salary cap, unfortunately nobody saw the devestation coming and JB got caught right after a trade and had to accept his losses and move on. 

 

17 hours ago, DSVII said:

There were reports from Botchford that Gradin really wanted Nylander, and Benning overruled him because Aquilini wanted the home boy Virtanen. 

 

And Juolevi was Benning's pick because he loved how he played on a stacked Finnish Team. 

 

So.... Gradin wanted Nylander and Aqua wanted VIrtanen... Who did Benning want????? Seems to me like an owner's pick. Why are we blaming Benning?

 

Sure Juolevi was JBs pick, but was he to foresee the plague of injuries that would haunt OJ right after being drafted? He should have checked with his crystal ball. 

What exactly was so wrong with selecting a Dman. You gotta start building a blueline at some point. 

 

We NEEDED Dmen. We had nothing in our system, just like every other department, no forwards, no D, no goalies prior to Benning. It's unfortunate we didnt pick a different Dman, but like I said, injuries is not a fair evaluation of a pick. There was no prior injury history.

 

17 hours ago, DSVII said:

I mean, just look at the draft charts on probability of NHL players, even late in the 1st round. I'd consider hitting on anyone that can play regularly in the NHL a win. Not every draft will have a superstar calibre player that goes to the 20th pick. that's why I don't give Benning too much grief on missing Pastranak, because he did end up with McCann.

 

It's more concerning, that despite hitting on McCann, JB undercut his own strength by packaging him away for Gudbranson.

I saw your "probability charts" Thats all algorithms, that doesnt account for development, which is the defecit we were in when JB took over. 

Benning hit in the late 1sts, I listed every cup winner that hit in the late 1st and beyond, wHy WaS gIlLiS nOt AbLe To?! No excuses, all those teams had worse drafting positions and continually found NHL talent.

 

Also, Jared McCann ended up becoming Pearson, JR wanted Gudbranson in PIT, that didnt work out for him. 

But Lets just follow the trade history of Jared McCann lol

Jul. 17, 2021

Pittsburgh Penguins Acquire: Filip Hållander · $0 2023 7th round pick (TOR)   Sum: $0 Change: -$2,940,000

Toronto Maple Leafs Acquire: Jared McCann · $2,940,000   Sum: $2,940,000 Change: +$2,940,000

Feb. 1, 2019

Florida Panthers Acquire: Derick Brassard · $3,000,000 Riley Sheahan · $2,100,000 2019 2nd round pick (PIT - #52 - Vladislav Kolyachonok) 2019 4th round pick (PIT - #114 - Dmitri Voronkov) 2019 4th round pick (MIN - #104 - Eric Hjorth)   Sum: $5,100,000 Change: -$250,000

Pittsburgh Penguins Acquire: Nick Bjugstad · $4,100,000 Jared McCann · $1,250,000   Sum: $5,350,000 Change: +$250,000

May 25, 2016

Vancouver Canucks Acquire: Erik Gudbranson · $3,500,000 2016 5th round pick (NYI - #140 - Cole Candella)   Sum: $3,500,000 Change: +$2,605,833

Florida Panthers Acquire: Jared McCann · $894,167 2016 2nd round pick (VAN - #33 - Rasmus Asplund) 2016 4th round pick (VAN - #94 - Jonathan Ang)   Sum: $894,167 Change: -$2,605,833

 

 

Jul. 21, 2021
Seattle Kraken	Jared McCann	Claimed in expansion draft

 

Toronto exposed McCann for the Expansion draft. His value depreciated as he moved around. His attitude had him paid to be given away. Toronto gave up a prospect and a pick and bought him a plane ticket to Seattle.

 

17 hours ago, DSVII said:

Benning drafted well enough, but he didn't put himself and the team in a position to succeed.

 

And yes, he should have backed Linden, but if Benning believed enough in FA's vision to go against him, he's accountable for how crappy he executed it. Especially after he had Petey/Hughes/Demko drafted.

 

 

Its the best drafting we've had since Burke. Could you imagine, if we didnt get Pettersson or Hughes, just how far behind we would be right now. Even further than this 0-5-2 start. It would be an absolute nightmare to watch Canucks hockey, worse than how the games are going right now.

 

Maybe he should have backed Linden, but who know what FA would have done. Probably would have sh*t canned them both. He wants playoff revenue, not excuses. Unfortunately it is impossible to rebuild, fill the farm system and win a cup all at the same time. We needed a rebuild, but like I said, that first few years a rebuild was not going to happen, it was out of respect for the Sedins that they were not going to end their careers in rebuilds, they were going to do everything they could to try and catch lightning in a bottle, while keeping all their picks, the Twins retired and that was no longer part of the plan. They then signed bottom 6 vets with exp to build a winning culture around the youth, which is key in a rebuild. You need leadership and veteran experience to get you through the growing pains.

 

17 hours ago, DSVII said:

The decision to not capitalize on the inherited team had major implications on the future. The decision to not accumulate draft capital and continually gun for it had implications on the future.

 

Mismanaging the cap and incorrectly identifying the culture carriers on the team and free agents that could help did.

 

And it clearly shows in your line of thinking.

 

It's not an excuse, it's the reality of the business. Value of Draft position is as real a concept as Salary Cap. In all the major sports.

 

Your line of thinking still sees ZERO issues with 8 years of failed drafting and the impact it would have had on our future as of today. We would have had 24-28y/o players to trade and gain 1st round and 2nd round picks or prospects to rebuild, like Colorado did, NYR etc. 

 

Development is as real and important as it gets when it comes to draft picks. You need to take time to develop them, 8 years of missed development puts you VERY far  behind.

Show me a development chart, not a probability chart, because probability is often proved wrong.

 

17 hours ago, DSVII said:

It's not an excuse, it's the reality of the business. Value of Draft position is as real a concept as Salary Cap. In all the major sports.

 

NHL Gms would disagree with you, considering they trade multiple picks to move up in the draft.

 

So in your  universe, would you trade a 1st overall for a 25th pick straight up? Because draft position doesn't matter right? And that 25th pick could be Pastranak right?

 

It's unfortunate because that's really the only reality where you can base this 'Gillis had no excuses' argument from. 

 

 

The point was he actually inherited a pretty good base to build something from or to pivot. He failed on both accounts.

 

I thought the 2014-15 team was laden full of unmoveable NTCs/NMCs that the prior regime signed, so it definitely has Gillis' finger prints on a substantial part its core.

 

This is the team he inheritted.

Regular Season						Playoffs					Vitals
#	Player Name	Pos.	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM	+/-	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM	Birthplace	Age
33	Henrik Sedin	C	70	11	39	50	42	3	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Ornskoldsvik	32
22	Daniel Sedin	L	73	16	31	47	38	0	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Ornskoldsvik	32
17	Ryan Kesler	C	77	25	18	43	81	-15	--	--	--	--	--	MI: Livonia	29
20	Chris Higgins	L	78	17	22	39	30	-14	--	--	--	--	--	NY: Smithtown	30
5	Jason Garrison	D	81	7	26	33	57	-5	--	--	--	--	--	BC: White Rock	28
9	Zack Kassian	R	73	14	15	29	124	-4	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Windsor	22
25	Mike Santorelli	C	49	10	18	28	6	9	--	--	--	--	--	BC: Vancouver	27
3	Kevin Bieksa	D	76	4	20	24	104	-8	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Grimsby	32
15	Brad Richardson	R	73	11	12	23	39	1	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Belleville	28
23	Alexander Edler	D	63	7	15	22	50	-39	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Ostersund	27
2	Dan Hamhuis	D	79	5	17	22	26	13	--	--	--	--	--	BC: Smithers	30
36	Jannik Hansen	R	71	11	9	20	43	-9	--	--	--	--	--	Denmark: Rodovre	27
7	David Booth	L	66	9	10	19	18	1	--	--	--	--	--	MI: Detroit	28
8	Christopher Tanev	D	64	6	11	17	8	12	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Toronto	23
18	Ryan Stanton	D	64	1	15	16	32	5						ALTA: St. Albert	24
14	Alexandre Burrows	R	49	5	10	15	71	-9	--	--	--	--	--	PQ: Pincourt	32
32	Dale Weise 1	R	44	3	9	12	42	-1	--	--	--	--	--	MAN: Winnipeg	25
6	Yannick Weber	D	49	6	4	10	16	-7	--	--	--	--	--	Switzerland: Morges	24
29	Tom Sestito	L	77	5	4	9	213	-14	--	--	--	--	--	NY: Rome	25
21	Zac Dalpe	C	55	4	3	7	6	-7	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Paris	23
27	Shawn Matthias 2	L	18	3	4	7	12	-3	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Mississauga	25
46	Nicklas Jensen	R	17	3	3	6	10	-1	--	--	--	--	--	Denmark: Herning	20
45	Jordan Schroeder	L	25	3	3	6	2	-7	--	--	--	--	--	MN: Lakeville	22
49	Darren Archibald	R	16	1	2	3	0	1						ONT: Newmarket	23
24	Raphael Diaz 3	D	6	1	1	2	0	-3	--	--	--	--	--	Switzerland: Baar	27
54	Kellan Lain	L	9	1	0	1	21	1	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Oakville	24
26	Frankie Corrado	D	15	1	0	1	4	-2	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Toronto	20
13	Jeremy Welsh	F	19	1	0	1	6	-1	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Bayfield	25
40	Mike Zalewski	L	2	0	1	1	0	2						NY: New Hartford	21
30	Joacim Eriksson	G	1	0	0	0	0	0						Sweden: Gavle	23
42	Benn Ferriero	R	2	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	MA: Essex	26
44	Pascal Pelletier	C	3	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	NFLD: Labrador City	30
47	Yann Sauve	D	3	0	0	0	0	-2	--	--	--	--	--	PQ: Montreal	23
35	Jacob Markstrom 2	G	4	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Gavle	23
41	Andrew Alberts	D	10	0	0	0	0	1	--	--	--	--	--	MN: Eden Prairie	32
31	Eddie Lack	G	41	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Norrtalje	25
1	Roberto Luongo 4	G	42	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	PQ: Montreal	34

 

This is a "pretty good base to build something from or to pivot?" tHis?!?  How do you "build" from this with zero prospects and an aging core. He tried building from that, he flipped to an 8th seed team. 

But, Sorry but I dont see a whole lot of value here.

He did move Garrison, Kesler and Bieksa within 2 years. He then began shipping out Burrows, Hansen, Lack, Kassian and got what he could for them. Not a ton of value there and not much value elsewhere. 

 

That is in no way shape or form a "good foundation" to start with and turn around. To go with the 0 prospects. 

17 hours ago, DSVII said:

I thought the 2014-15 team was laden full of unmoveable NTCs/NMCs that the prior regime signed, so it definitely has Gillis' finger prints on a substantial part its core.

 

The Sedins

Horvat

Jansen

Burrows

Edler

Bieksa

Hamhuis

Tanev

Higgins

Markstrom

Eddie Lack

Twins - No one wants one, they want both. So essentially unmovable to go with their NMCs that already state thats a No Movement Clause.

Horvat JUST drafted him. So what, you want to trade your last years pick to get a pick? whats the point, let him build some value. You could move Horvat and he turns into the player today and in return you get a guy that never pans out. 

Hansen* - Traded for Goldobin and a 4th - Neither panned out 

Burrows - Traded for Dahlen - which JB then flipped and got Karlsson

Edler - Was he not one of the ones who wouldnt waive his clause right up until he hit free agency and wanted a shot at a cup?

Bieksa - A late 2nd round pick 

Hamhuis - 4.5mil cap hit with Back/hip issues, not a price people want to pay much for if anything. We aren't the only team in the league concerned with drafting anything.

Tanev - Sure we could have moved him, but was also young enough to last through a rebuild and still be effective. Might be the only cherish able asset off that roster. 

Higgins - Very little value 

Markstrom - The future goalie, once again we had nothing. Gave away Lou and Schneider, need to have at least one goalie. So that would have been extremely risky, especially since the goalie guru really loved him.

Lack - Traded for a 3rd and 7th round pick

 

Now that we see the Value of these players, lets just really solidify just how little value 90% of that list had.

After being traded, Hansen would go on to play a total of 61 games. Traded in 2016-17 and out of the league by 2017-18(46gp 2g 12a 14pts)

Burrows - would go on to play 91 games after being traded in 2016-17 out of the league at the end of the 2017-18 season(71gp 6g 8a 14pts)

Bieksa - would go on to play 3 seasons 252gp also out of the league after the 2017-18 season (59gp 0g 8a)

Hamhuis - would go on to play 4 seasons 286gp never posting more than 24pts, out of the league after 2019-20 season(60gp 0g 8a) Combined for 13pts in his last 2 seasons.

Higgins - played 33 games after 2014-15 3goals 1 assist - was out of the NHL after the 2015-16 season.

Lack - over the course of 3 more seasons, Lack would play 61 games total. 8gp in his last season Primarily in the AHL.

 

 

17 hours ago, DSVII said:

The 23rd finish was an outlier caused by Torts, not a pattern. It was a 100 pt team for the prior seasons way before that. Even 1-2-3-4 Willie was able to get 100 pts off the Sedins.

 

You call it an outlier "cause by Torts" and it wasnt a pattern. 

 

2013-14	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	Pacific	82	36	35	0	4	7	83	0.506	196	223	1115	19771	John Tortorella	Out of Playoffs
2014-15	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	Pacific	82	48	29	0	3	2	101	0.616	242	222		18711	Willie Desjardins	Lost in round 1
2015-16	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	Pacific	82	31	38	0	9	4	75	0.457	191	243		18431	Willie Desjardins	Out of Playoffs
2016-17	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	Pacific	82	30	43	0	7	2	69	0.421	182	243		18510	Willie Desjardins	Out of Playoffs
2017-18	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	Pacific	82	31	40	0	6	5	73	0.445	218	264		18079	Travis Green	Out of Playoffs
2018-19	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	Pacific	82	35	36	0	5	6	81	0.494	225	254		18022	Travis Green	Out of Playoffs
2019-20	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	Pacific	69	36	27	0	3	3	78	0.565	228	217		18680	Travis Green	Lost in round 2
2020-21	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	North	56	23	29	0	3	1	50	0.446	151	188			Travis Green	Out of Playoffs
2021-22	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	Pacific	82	40	30	0	7	5	92	0.561	249	236		17286	Green, Boudreau {+}	Out of Playoffs

 

But I call you an outright liar. Doesnt look to me like Torts caused the 2015-16, 17, 18, 19 missed playoffs. Seems to me like a team that was well over the hump that declined, aged out and had no youth to infuse until 2019-20. It was certainly a pattern to follow, because we still relied on the 32 year old Sedins, 32 year old Burrows, 30 year old Higgins, 32 year old Bieksa, 30 year old Hamhuis, 29 year old Kelser and a whole bunch of plugs like Stanton, Booth, Santorelli, Weise, Weber, Dalpe, Sestito oh and those sick draft picks Jensen and Schroeder. That 2013-14 team finished exactly where they should have finished. The following season JB made several changes, through UFA and trades. But the underlying problem was still there, no legitimate prospects and talent to carry the torch.

 

Dont kid yourself, Mike Gillis ruined the future and had zero eye for talent as seen by alllll the cup winning teams the last 15 years that, even they could find players while winning. 

17 hours ago, DSVII said:

If i was judging Benning on a retool, which he committed to, I'd expect him to stock up on draft picks so he could draft his core and also fill up the farm. Then slowly build the team back up to contention. It means being willing to suck for a year or two then reset.

 

To retool successfully, Benning has to accumulate value at a faster rate than other team, either at the NHL level through winning trades or deft signings. Or through adding more picks at the draft.

 

I expected Benning to be patient and not make rash moves, for me, keeping the 7 default picks we had was my absolute minimum standard. Take the lumps when we can like Tampa/Detroit/Colorado/STL did and know when to sell and when to buy. 

 

He failed in his execution, plain and simple. 

How does one stock up on NHL talent and fill the farm? I mean we could have a handful of his players right now in the farm system and have no NHL players. 

 

To retool successfully, Due to MG and DN failures drafting, JB had to be absolutely lights out drafting in order to undo the damage. For the most part, JB was lights out. He landed us a goalie, 2 wingers, a centre and a #1 Dman. Massive pieces, which are highly important for the future. Plus Rathbone is looking quite nice right now. So we might have 2 D out of all that. Plus guys that are developing overseas or here in NA (McDonough, Klim, Hoglander, Lockwood, Silovs, Jurmo, Persson, Kunz, Truscott)

The value of the players left behind was garbage, it returned next to nothing.

 

You expect him to be patient, but you are 100% aware of the owner and his impatience along with the pressure from this fanbase (not the NFL fanbase) its almost impossible to stay patient in a Canadian market.

 

17 hours ago, DSVII said:

And to put the shoe on the other foot, Gillis may not be able to draft like his life depended on it, but I'd extend the same inability towards Benning's trades, free agent signings, cap and asset management and picks for reclamation project trades. 

 

GM was not a secondary role, but judging them purely by the results of drafting is not what a GM is all about. It's about juggling multiple aspects of an org and focusing them on a goal. 

 

And to put the shoe on the other foot,  Benning inherited Two hall of famers, a Selke centre on the trade block, A Vezina caliber Goalie, Four top 4 caliber D (two of which were in their prime) and his future captain and he still couldn't build a winning culture or a team that doesn't threaten to implode the next offseason due to cap considerations.

- JT Miller trade netted us positive value in return, PA and JR chose not to utilize that. Far greater asset than JB ever had. - A move that needed to be made, wasnt.

- OEL is moveable by your standards of all the NMC/NTC you speak of. Garland has value so he can be used to acquire a pick - Moves that could be made

- Boeser is moveable and should net a pick or prospect - move that could be made

- Horvat - we cant really afford to lose C's but if there's a trade to be made Horvat is one of them.

 

If you look at the large majority of  reclamation projects, JB banked on former 1st round picks to regain their mojo, he wasnt gambling on 4th and 5th round guys constantly.

Look at the draft positions of each player, JB tended to always move up on the gamble, not down.

 

- As for the GM not being a secondary role, or whatever you called it. The multiple aspects like you said, you hire people to help with that "foresight" you get as much information and attention to detail as needed and you work with them. 

 

- Benning inherited 2 declining HOFers a Selke on the block with full control of his destination and which Vezina caliber goalie did he inherit? The Markstrom that let in the first shot of every game for half a season?

 

17 hours ago, DSVII said:

Refer back to my previous post on context and draft capital accumulation vs team winning percentages due to different stages of their life cycle.

 

Throwing a list of names is meaningless without context.

 

Here's that mega list of names in graph form based on the value of their draft positions and the winning percentage of the team in the regular season.

 

Here is Pittsburgh's. it sure looks like getting Malkin and Crosby in back to back drafts just puts your team in a position to trade away all your draft capital for immediate help since you're expected to go to playoffs. And it sure looks like if you compare them to any rebuilding team in that time span, of course they'll end up with crappier draft prospects compared to a rebulding team or even an average team.

 

 

but by all means, tell me how Benning is magically going to draft a Pastranak at the 113th pick.

 

refer to the top about draft capital accumulation (a lot of those drafts where late round players were found were not positive draft capital) vs team winning % and their life cycles, because 6 cup winners kept drafting NHLers. PIT, CHI, LAK, STL, WSH, TBL.

 

I hope you read my mega list of names in written form based on the value of their draft position and the teams overall standings at the end of the regular season.

 

Yea no duh, what does almost every cup winner have in common the last 15 years? a 1st overall. Generational talent to boot. 

 

But by all means, tell me how Gillis is excused from failing to draft any real NHL players, while winning, as every team I mentioned about, did.

 

The impact of not having any REAL assets to gain picks, 8 years of lost development had far bigger impact on our future than JB drafting OJ or Francesco drafting JV.

 

 

 

EDIT - Forgot to add Boston. But heres the standings/picks. I aint typing it.

2006 Entry	50	2	Milan Lucic	L	Vancouver Giants [WHL]	1101	226	340	566	1260
2006 Entry	71	3	Brad Marchand	L	Moncton Wildcats [QMJHL]	874	351	444	795	899
2006 Entry	128	5	Andrew Bodnarchuk	D	Halifax Mooseheads [QMJHL]	42	0	4	4	16
2006 Entry	158	6	Levi Nelson	C	Swift Current Broncos [WHL]
2005 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2005 Entry	22	1	Matt Lashoff	D	Kitchener Rangers [OHL]	74	1	15	16	59
2005 Entry	39	2	Petr Kalus	R	Vitkovice Jr. (Czech)	11	4	1	5	6
2005 Entry	83	3	Mikko Lehtonen	R	Blues Jrs (Finland)	2	0	0	0	0
2005 Entry	100	4	Jonathan Sigalet	D	Bowling Green State University [CCHA]	1	0	0	0	4
2005 Entry	106	4	Vladimir Sobotka	C	Slavia Praha HC [Czech]	548	53	118	171	362
2005 Entry	154	5	Wacey Rabbit	C	Saskatoon Blades [WHL]
2005 Entry	172	6	Lukas Vantuch	C	Liberec Jrs (Czech Rep.)
2005 Entry	217	7	Brock Bradford	C	Omaha Lancers [USHL]
2004 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2004 Entry	63	2	David Krejci	C	Kladno Jrs (Czech Rep.)	968	217	520	737	343
2004 Entry	64	2	Martins Karsums	R	Moncton Wildcats [QMJHL]	24	1	5	6	6
2004 Entry	108	4	Ashton Rome	R	Moose Jaw Warriors [WHL]
2004 Entry	134	5	Kris Versteeg	R	Lethbridge Hurricanes [WHL]	643	149	209	358	374
2004 Entry	160	5	Ben Walter	C	UMass-Lowell [H-East]	24	1	0	1	6
2004 Entry	224	7	Matt Hunwick	D	U. of Michigan [CCHA]	535	25	94	119	207
2004 Entry	255	8	Anton Hedman	L	Stocksunds (Sweden)
2003 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2003 Entry	21	1	Mark Stuart	D	Colorado College [WCHA]	673	26	67	93	722
2003 Entry	45	2	Patrice Bergeron	C	Acadie-Bathurst Titan [QMJHL]	1222	403	585	988	474
2003 Entry	66	2	Masi Marjamaki	L	Red Deer Rebels [WHL]	1	0	0	0	0
2003 Entry	107	4	Byron Bitz	R	Nanaimo Clippers [BCHL]	97	10	12	22	65
2003 Entry	118	4	Frank Rediker	D	Windsor Spitfires [OHL]
2003 Entry	129	4	Patrik Valcak	L	Ostrava Jrs. (Czech)
2003 Entry	153	5	Mike Brown	G	Saginaw Spirit [OHL]
2003 Entry	183	6	Nate Thompson	C	Seattle Thunderbirds [WHL]	844	65	99	164	401
2003 Entry	247	8	Benoit Mondou	R	Shawinigan Cataractes [QMJHL]
2003 Entry	277	9	Kevin Regan	G	St. Sebastian's [Mass. H.S.]

 

 

2000-01	Boston Bruins	NHL	Northeast	82	36	30	8	8	0	88	0.537	227	249	1325	15432	Burns, Keenan {+}	Out of Playoffs
2001-02	Boston Bruins	NHL	Northeast	82	43	24	6	9	0	101	0.616	236	201	1454	15403	Robbie Ftorek	Lost in round 1
2002-03	Boston Bruins	NHL	Northeast	82	36	31	11	4	0	87	0.530	245	237	1370	15029	Ftorek, O'Connell {+}	Lost in round 1
2003-04	Boston Bruins	NHL	Northeast	82	41	19	15	7	0	104	0.634	209	188	1208	15133	Mike Sullivan	Lost in round 1
2005-06	Boston Bruins	NHL	Northeast	82	29	37	0	8	8	74	0.451	230	266	1174	16211	Mike Sullivan	Out of Playoffs
2006-07	Boston Bruins	NHL	Northeast	82	35	41	0	2	4	76	0.463	219	289	1256	14764	Dave Lewis	Out of Playoffs
2007-08	Boston Bruins	NHL	Northeast	82	41	29	0	5	7	94	0.573	212	222	1069	15384	Claude Julien	Lost in round 1

 

. Krejci, Lucic, Marchand, Bergeron all outside the 1st.

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by AnthonyG

[MaxVerstappen33]

I sure wish we had Marc Bergevin now. Or Paul Holmgren. Or Ray Sherro. Or maybe even Burke. Anyone but what we got. 

[DSVII]

 

 

On 10/25/2022 at 6:35 PM, AnthonyG said:

I actually have quite good memory of STL and TBL. Do you??

I'll start with STL

2010-2011 - 20th - No 1st round pick, missed playoffs

- 46th Joel Edmundson

- 88th Jordan Binnington

2011-2012 - 3rd 

- 86th Colton Parayko

2013-2014 - 4th

- 21st Robbi Fabbri

- 33rd Ivan Barbashev

- 94th Ville Husso

-  146th Sammy Blais

2014-2015 - 4th - No 1st round pick

- 56th Vince Dunn

2015-2016 - 3rd

- 26th Tage Thompson

- 35th Jordan Kyrou

2016-17 - 10th

- 20th Robert Thomas

 

Lmao Thats just STL, I'm just getting warmed up lmfao. Whats the excuse for late round picks?? STL has how many key players that were drafted VERY late in the 1st or outside the 1st round... That won a cup? STL has been a top team for almost a decade. Still producing NHL talent, unlike our boy GMMG. They've also had Backes in the 2nd, Soderberg 2nd, Oshie 24th, Stempniak 5th rnd, Polak in the 6th, Perron 26th

 

Now count the number of late round draft picks that don't hit. Your reply will be even longer. You do realize that the 'fancy' graphs take into account every player right? hits and misses? The point isn't that it's impossible to find a good player, but heading into a draft, how high you pick and how often you  pick counts for a lot.

 

Listing names and making the case that it's possible is like telling someone that a lotto ticket with 5% hit with Kucherov, therefore you can just get by with a 5% chance again next year. You're operating with 100% hindsight and selection bias here. 

 

You're throwing shit on the wall and hoping it overwhelms people. It's just spam at this point.

 

Again, you've asked for a reason why GMMG had a crap prospect pool, I've provided the reasoning.

 

1.) Trading away picks for cup runs 

2.) Having weaker draft positions than other teams as a result (lower picks and less number of picks)

3.) An ownership group putting making playoffs as a bar for job security (As a rabid Benning supporter, you should be more sympathetic with this one)

4.) and yes, he didn't revamp the scouting department till too late, his mandate was to be in win now mode. He never had a chance to properly rebuild.

 

 

Quote

Alright, now onto TBL.

 

2010-11 - 8th

- 27th Valdislav Namestnikov

- 58th NIIIIIIIIIKITTTTAAAAAAAA KUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCHEROVVVVVVV

- 208th Ondrej Palat

2013-14 - 8th

- 79th Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaydennnnnn POOIINNNNNNNNNNT

2014-15 - 5th - No 1st round pick

- 72nd AAAAAAANTHONYYYYYYY CIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRELLLLLLLLIIIIIIII

2015-16 - 12th 

- 118th Ross Colton

I just found this hilarious, it's not the victory lap you're thinking it to be.

 

Also you are listing Benning drafts. Back to you giving grief on GMMG. Why did your boy Benning miss out on Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaydennnnnn POOIINNNNNNNNNNT?

 

Why does Gillis get crap from you for his misses but not JB?  

 

Quote

Your argument about draft position is looking weaker and weaker... Now to really crush excuses of strength of draft position time for Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA and Washington.

ALLLLLLLLL these teams are Stanley Cup winners allllll of these teams found players late in the 1st or beyond. Not just one player, but many.

Nah bud, you're whiffing on air.

 

You're literally applying perfect hindsight to each situation and you're applying the hot hand fallacy to every successive draft. (There was a Kucherov in round 2 of 2015, there must be a kucherov in round 2 of 2022!)

 

You know what Chicago, Pittsburg, LA, and Washington all have in common as cup winners? Their cup cores were constructed by maximizing draft capital and pick position when they were rebuilding years before your sample dates. As evidenced by Patrick Kane, Crosby, Kopitar, Ovechkin.

 

This kind of thinking is what landed the Canucks in hot water. I've literally had arguments with JB supporters  here who claim that it doesn't matter that Benning traded his 2nds, because he can draft a Kucherov in the 3rd as a steal!

 

It doesn't happen as often as you think.

 

To be objective, you have to see the context each GM set themselves up in prior to the draft, and where their respective teams were in their life cycles. I agree, Tampa has killed it, but citing the top of the class Tampa drafting as the reason why Gillis should have done better is weak.

 

Quote

I'm having a real hard time believing its impossible to win, keep a winning culture going and draft NHL talent. Impact players too, who played instrumental roles in Stanley Cup runs/wins.

Ah, you must be one of those 'get in the playoffs and anything can happen' guys. 

 

Quote

So your fancy little graphs tell me its almost impossible to find NHLers as the draft gets deeper and deeper.... Yet I'm looking at the draft history of every cup winner the last decade and I'm seeing countless NHLers being found later in rounds, while competing, contending and winning Stanley cups..... SOOOOO Like... How about Gillis? Why couldnt he do it? How was the draft capital for a lot of these teams without 1st round picks, bottom 5 1st round picks.... Yet NHLers are coming out of every draft regardless of the round. 

The fancy graph is supposed to tell you that  heading into a blind draft, the GM with more higher draft picks and higher quantities of picks will more likely walk away with more players. 

 

The answer is because Gillis had even less picks that those teams without 1st round picks, and was picking from the bottom of each round due to presidents' trophy level finishes. All else equal (I'm not arguing drafting was his strong suit either)

 

Tampa had more picks than him over his entire tenure. They had more shots at finding a Kucherov in a generic blank draft. When you have over ten more shots at the lottery than Gillis did, a generic GM in Tampa's position will end up with more assets more often than not than a generic GM in Vancouver's position.

 

 

Quote

Detroit is the epitome of late round drafting success. They found Henrik Zetterberg without a 1st, 2nd or 3rd. They found him in the 7th. Pavel Datsyuk in the 6th, Holmstrom in the 10th round, Kronwall 29OA, Hudler, Fleischmann 2nd round, Filpulla 3rd and then Ericsson in the 9th, Franzen in the 3rd with no 1st or 2nd round picks. Abdelkader in the 2nd Helm in the 5th, Nyquist in the 4th..... Dude Detroit is elite and drafting late. They spend a period of like 10 years with only 3 1st round picks and they still crushed it.

That's very unlikely to happen again, the hockey world has changed a lot since then, Zetterberg and Datsyuk were drafted at a time when there was a huge market inefficiency in European scouting. not saying it's not possible, but the chances of that happening again are slim to none. 

 

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Drop the Sakic thing dude, he walked into a job with VALUABLE assets, a 1OA a 2OA a 3OA... ROR, Duchene, Mackinnon, Landeskog. You cant compare the two.

 

Toronto landed a generation goal scorer. I already disproved your tear down of Bozak and all these other guys they "got rid of" 3/4 were LTIR or walked in free agency. Outside of Matthews and Marner, what else did they draft? How's the soon to be Matthews succession plan lookin in 2 years?

Also 2 year tear down? 

I think you should notice I didn't go over what he inherited, but simply the draft capital he accumulated during his tenure that overlapped vs Benning. He did a better job of ensuring he could land more NHL prospects through the draft during the time he overlapped JB.

 

Also, you disproved nothing. You called Phaneuf and Kessel worthless, yet they were still moved out for assets. Bozak and Lupul were just left to expire. The Leafs didn't do anything incredibly stupid like trading them in their final years for a boatload anchor like OEL. They saw cap space as an asset. Your boy JB saw it as a way to sign overpriced vets to save his bacon.

 

Quote

Lookin like the Arizona Coyotes with that amount of playoff appearances in 11 years

Leafs in the Phaneuf/Kessel era were just like us, a flawed core trying to make the playoffs but getting tanking results. I lived in Toronto during that time and the talk was always 'playoffs playoffs playoffs' .

 

Look up the Burke era Leafs and their moves, that was not a team that was rebuilding

 

- Signing expensive free agents

- Trading two first round picks in 2010 and 2011 for Phil Kessel

- Trading for Dion Phaneuf

- Traded their top prospect 5th overall Luke Schenn to address a hole at centre with JVR (kinda like JB trading a top 10 pick to address the hole on D he created)

 

They pulled a Benning, paying futures for immediate help, gunning to retool on the fly, and failing miserably. They called it quits after the 2013 Game 7 loss and pivoted back to a rebuild that landed them Mathews. They started this iteration of their rebuild the same time as Benning got his job.

 

Quote

So you're deflecting from the original point YOU made

Tanev+Toffoli+Markstrom were only 2.25mil more than Schmidt+Virtanen+Holtby

- Schmidt was an upgrade and the fancy little JFresh cards showed that. for 1.5 mil on Schmidt we saved 2mil on Toffoli and Markstrom. Cap savings right? Cap space comes at a premium, like you said. Isn't it all about managing cap? plus those 3 came with waaay more term. So you're arguing against your own point about term and cap. Signing those guys would have been a bad move, especially with all the negotiations we had coming up within the next 2 years. We'd be locked into 16mil roughly, when we need to deal with RFA negotiations.

 

Also that 1.45mil in savings on Tanev would land you a 9.75mil cap hit between the two. Whereas Schmidt and Virtanen combined would still come in at 8.5mil. 1.25mil towards your upcoming contract negotiations. Foresight. But hey, if you want to use every extra million you can find to keep older players, by all means go for it. JB was creating cap spaces while not completely sacrificing the players he was losing/letting go. He upgraded on Tanev, but banked on Virtanen who had youth and just came off an 18g 18a season over Toffoli. 

Actually my original point said there was no expectation to keep Markstrom, but at least to not go 0-4 for all his pending UFAs. in fact i specifically mentioned he should have tried to keep a combination of Tanev/Toffoli/Stetcher, given what he ended up spending.

 

You then continued with Tanev+Toffoli+Markstrom in your posts.

 

I told you again you exclude Markstrom. You've included him again. Because that's the only way the math works for you. Again, there was no expectation to keep Markstrom at least from my end.

 

So you can continue arguing against the imaginary person who said keep Markstrom, i'll just continue on.

 

Schmidt was supposed to be Tanev's replacement, so you're paying $1.5 mil for a marginally better player who offered you 1 win above replacement according to Jfresh. Not worth it in a cap strapped world.

 

Toffoli > Jake Virtanen. Especially when you consider the investment we put into Toff. Forget the sexual assault cases, Jake was benched long before that for his lazy play. That was an internal failure of the coaching staff, and of Benning for qualifying him. He had to make a hard choice there and it blinked.

 

Quote

Also when it comes to age D>G>F - Defense is timing and space, knowing where to be and when to be there. You rely less on speed and more on experience/IQ. Goalies are similar and its why you see more goalies and D playing into their late 30's and 40's than Forwards, because FORWARDs rely on speed, getting to the open areas. Its harder to separate yourself than close the gap. 

I agree to an extent, but you have to be a special kind of Defensemen to thrive in your late 30s. When you're acquiring them at 30, you are literally buying them right before their drop.

 

The general rule is that the peak of defensemen, if you take into account the entire population, is around 19-24

 

Pinning your hopes that you've landed a Duncan keith is a worthy gamble to make, I just don't think you can afford to do it twice, especially at the cost of $13 mil. (OEL/Myers)

 

 

 

 

Quote

I see Fleury still goin and getting good $. Smith was well past his prime.  Holtby was signed for 2 years. TWO. That was it, that was to mentor Demko. Now we have a shakey Demko who has zero veteran experience to lean on. He's having a real tough time right now. Would be nice to have a guy like Holtby to put his arm around him and talk him through it.

Demko did just fine without Holtby last year. Haven't heard a whiff about anyone saying they miss Holtby's presence mentoring him.

 

Quote

Sorry, which one year gap is banking on youth? Jake Virtanen's youth over Toffoli's. 24>27. Especially how JV was trending after 2019-20. 18g 18a. In a flat cap world, seems like hoping the cheaper, younger option who's providing nearly as many goals is the smarter choice long term.

 

No foresight considering JV ran into legal issues. How the f*** is that fair dude? Is Benning supposed to see the future with COVID and JVs sexual assault accusations? Like wtf man? You stick it to him for not seeing the future. Not like he lost anything for Schmidt. He gained "draft capital"? Sometimes sh*t doesnt work out, dont wear for too long. There was comments by Schmidt that were offsetting, Holtby was having a tough time.

 

 

The foresight was not in the legal issues, but in Jake's lazy play and sloppy mistakes. It was an internal scouting failure.

 

Quote

And like you've agreed, Francesco Aquaweenie demands playoffs and is pretty much holding a gun to every GM's head we've had. So is it fair to judge any of them for rushing things when their job is on the line from the getgo.

It is when they throw their benefactor (linden)  under the bus and completely buy into the owner's plan. It's up to him to execute

 

At least Gillis stuck to his principles, even though it cost him his job, he knew what was best for the team.

 

Hold Benning accountable for his decision to commit to this retool on the fly.

 

Quote

First off, wrong sport. Secondly Hockey is our #1 sport, Football is USA's #1 sport. Same pressure, different sports. When it comes to hockey in the states, its nowhere near the pressure we have. Deflection and Strawman. Thats not an apples to apples comparrison.

Montreal then, they rioted like 5 times in their history. Some of which were in the first round. 

 

And guess what, despite that pressure, they're still performing and rebuilding. We're not a super special situation here.

 

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Oh we're playing the would you rather game eh.

 

Would you rather a 30y/o on a 8 year 10.5mil deal and a soon to be 30 y/o Weegar on a 8year 6.25mil, or 16.75mil in cap space?

ORRR would you rather Miles Liberati or Mackenzie Weegar 

7	205	Vancouver	Miles Liberati	D	London Knights [OHL]
7	206	Florida	MacKenzie Weegar	D	Halifax Mooseheads [QMJHL]	311	27	97	124	259	2022-23

 

YIKES. Another BIG miss by MG. How bout that for strength of draft position? 7th round 7 picks from the bottom. 

 

Yep, it further reinforces my point.

 

Prior to the 205th pick being made, Vancouver's pick was more valuable than Florida's at the time because there was a chance to draft Mackenzie Weegar. That's how draft position works.

 

A scratch and win ticket with a 10% chance of winning is more valuable than one that has a 5% chance of winning before either is scratched.

 

That holds true even if the 5% one is revealed to have won. If you are presented with a fresh pair of tickets with the same percentages, you still want the 10% ticket.

 

You get my drift now?

 

Also, why did Benning miss on Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaydennnnnn POOIINNNNNNNNNNT then?

 

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Would you rather a 30y/o on a 8 year 10.5mil deal and a soon to be 30 y/o Weegar on a 8year 6.25mil, or 16.75mil in cap space?

PS isnt that kind of the move you want to avoid??? adding older players on LONNGGGG deals, for your youth? Sure they got a 1st, but like your lovely graphs showed, a late 1st is less likely to be an NHLer. Like wouldnt you agree that Calgary is kinda in that area where they should start retooling before its too late? Like look at their last 3 signings. 23mil for the next 7 years on Kadri, Huberdeau and Weegar, Weegar may be fine for 5-7 years, but the other 2, I'd be concerned about how they age.

False choice here bud.

 

I'd rather have him, then flip him again for picks and prospects. The team needs to rebuild. That's how you get youth. Something Benning never embraced. Yet you cheered him for it.

 

A late 1st is less likely than a top 1st to be an NHL, but several times more likely to be an NHLer than a lower round pick.

 

Again, you simply don't value draft capital, so there's no point to arguing with you, even though it's the reason why we're in this mess from JB. but this is more for the forum than you.

 

 

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Once again you deflect from the March 4th 2020 announcement of a 3.5-7.5mil cap increase that became frozen 2 weeks later. Can you explain that? Do you really think we would have let him go or Tanev go if the cap increased? Why do you keep deflecting from that?

Because it's irrelevant. Every GM dealt with this same circumstance. Benning had the entire offseason to crunch the numbers to make it work and go with the tough choices. He decided to focus on OEL instead. 

 

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How did TBL bend JB over? He took a 1st and a 2nd, got JT Miller and PA and JR could have flipped JT for a 1st, 2nd plus a top prospect. But THEY botched it. That would have been massive value for us. But nooooooo. They decided to hang on. That could have been like a Duchene or ROR trade that helped the future.

Oh completely, JR and PA missed the boat.

 

TBL bent JB over because literally no other owner was dumb enough to pay a 1st for JT since everyone knew Tampa was in a cap crunch, and in this business, no one does you any favors. They flipped our 1st for a cost controlled centre in Blake Coleman, and won a cup. Again, without JB that cup would not have happened.

 

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Give it up with the Toffoli crap. You literally have no ground to stand on, you preach space, but blame Benning for making lateral moves with lower cap hit i.e. JV+Schmidt+Holtby at 12.8mil with a 2y+2y+4y term remaining in a flat cap climate >  14.75mil with a 4y+4y+6y term. A flat cap royally screwed him and if you honestly believe he should have seen COVID coming, please hand over your crystal ball to JR and PA so they can draft an NHLer. JB would not have let Toffoli or Tanev walk with an increase in the salary cap, unfortunately nobody saw the devestation coming and JB got caught right after a trade and had to accept his losses and move on. 

A flat cap did screw him, and no one saw it coming but he did nothing to mitigate his losses. The fact that he had to buy out JV and Holtby a year later and carry dead cap over to next year shows he doesn't optimize cap space and has no foresight.

 

He spent a year watching Quinn Hughes and Tanev dominating, paid extra trade capital for Toffoli, saw how well the room jelled together. Learned about the cap crunch, and his number 1 priority in the offseason was....ignore them all and focus on OEL, then he 'ran out of time.'

 

Everyone got devastated, and JB acted like business as usual instead of adapting to limit the damage. And as a result, he got saddled with pieces that had to be bought out a year later.

 

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So.... Gradin wanted Nylander and Aqua wanted VIrtanen... Who did Benning want????? Seems to me like an owner's pick. Why are we blaming Benning?

 

Sure Juolevi was JBs pick, but was he to foresee the plague of injuries that would haunt OJ right after being drafted? He should have checked with his crystal ball. 

What exactly was so wrong with selecting a Dman. You gotta start building a blueline at some point. 

 

We NEEDED Dmen. We had nothing in our system, just like every other department, no forwards, no D, no goalies prior to Benning. It's unfortunate we didnt pick a different Dman, but like I said, injuries is not a fair evaluation of a pick. There was no prior injury history.

The draft pick is still his final say. He ignored Gradin and followed Aqualini.

 

You keep bemoaning excuses and yet when you get with Juolevi, you come up with them. Personally I think Benning put too much stock on the world juniors, especially on a stacked team.

 

There's nothing wrong with selecting a Dman, but the rule is BPA for the first round. Always. Positional drafting gets you in trouble when you ignore value. (which I guess is your MO here)

 

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I saw your "probability charts" Thats all algorithms, that doesnt account for development, which is the defecit we were in when JB took over. 

Benning hit in the late 1sts, I listed every cup winner that hit in the late 1st and beyond, wHy WaS gIlLiS nOt AbLe To?! No excuses, all those teams had worse drafting positions and continually found NHL talent.

 

Also, Jared McCann ended up becoming Pearson, JR wanted Gudbranson in PIT, that didnt work out for him. 

But Lets just follow the trade history of Jared McCann lol

Algorithms that use all the data of the player available. It's much more robust than your copy and paste the entire hockeyDB draft method for sure. 

 

Gillis hit his one and only top 10 pick too (Bo) so he has found value when given a good drafting position. But the simplest answer was, drafting was not his focus since he was trying to win the stanley cup by trading picks for help now. He even admitted that he waited too long.

 

 

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Also, Jared McCann ended up becoming Pearson, JR wanted Gudbranson in PIT, that didnt work out for him. 

But Lets just follow the trade history of Jared McCann lol

Toronto exposed McCann for the Expansion draft. His value depreciated as he moved around. His attitude had him paid to be given away. Toronto gave up a prospect and a pick and bought him a plane ticket to Seattle.

Nah, let's follow the trade history of the value Benning got from McCann

 

McCann + a high 2nd pick for Gudbranson

Gudbranson for Pearson.

 

Two picks that could have ended up being cost controlled top 6 players became a 30 year old middling winger. Good job JB.

 

And as for why his value depreciated. Benning rushed him and Jake to the NHL in the Willie Desjardin years to make the team PR look better. You slag on Gillis for not developing prospects but Benning is just as guilty of this.

 

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Its the best drafting we've had since Burke. Could you imagine, if we didnt get Pettersson or Hughes, just how far behind we would be right now. Even further than this 0-5-2 start. It would be an absolute nightmare to watch Canucks hockey, worse than how the games are going right now.

 

 

Again, I'm not taking that away from Benning. Petey, Hughes, Demko, solid core. We had great drafting in the years, but not enough picks to make it count.

 

You need quantity and quality to succeed. How good would Forsling/McCann/Madden all those 2nds/3rds/4ths traded away for Linden Vey/Baerschi/Dorsett look on our team now had they been willing to just draft and be patient.

 

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Maybe he should have backed Linden, but who know what FA would have done. Probably would have sh*t canned them both. He wants playoff revenue, not excuses. Unfortunately it is impossible to rebuild, fill the farm system and win a cup all at the same time. We needed a rebuild, but like I said, that first few years a rebuild was not going to happen, it was out of respect for the Sedins that they were not going to end their careers in rebuilds, they were going to do everything they could to try and catch lightning in a bottle, while keeping all their picks, the Twins retired and that was no longer part of the plan. They then signed bottom 6 vets with exp to build a winning culture around the youth, which is key in a rebuild. You need leadership and veteran experience to get you through the growing pains.

At last, a thing we agree upon.

 

My issue though, was they signed those bottom six players before we had the youth to build around them (Beagle/Loui/Roussel were all before Benning drafted Petey/Hughes/Demko) I agree you need a winning culture from vets, but Benning's pro scouting simply wasn't up to snuff here. He misjudged and overpaid, and he also ignored how huge a role Tanev/Edler had in building that culture in the room. 

 

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Your line of thinking still sees ZERO issues with 8 years of failed drafting and the impact it would have had on our future as of today. We would have had 24-28y/o players to trade and gain 1st round and 2nd round picks or prospects to rebuild, like Colorado did, NYR etc. 

 

Development is as real and important as it gets when it comes to draft picks. You need to take time to develop them, 8 years of missed development puts you VERY far  behind.

Show me a development chart, not a probability chart, because probability is often proved wrong.

What part of 'accumulate draft capital' implies I had zero issues with 8 years of failed drafting?

 

Probability is not a guarantee, but it picks up on trends that are consistent.

 

Show me a development chart first, because i'm pretty sure that's a term you just invented.

 

The sad truth is, we would have had 24-28 YOs to trade today had Benning just been more patient with his prospects.

 

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This is a "pretty good base to build something from or to pivot?" tHis?!?  How do you "build" from this with zero prospects and an aging core. He tried building from that, he flipped to an 8th seed team. 

But, Sorry but I dont see a whole lot of value here.

He did move Garrison, Kesler and Bieksa within 2 years. He then began shipping out Burrows, Hansen, Lack, Kassian and got what he could for them. Not a ton of value there and not much value elsewhere. 

 

That is in no way shape or form a "good foundation" to start with and turn around. To go with the 0 prospects. 

I mean, refer back to my post where i laid it all out and even you said:

 

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8C. Sorry maybe didnt inherit "nothing" but sure didnt inherit much at all compared to what Sakic inheritted. Or Gorton in NY.

It was a good base to start a rebuild, but not compete.

 

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Twins - No one wants one, they want both. So essentially unmovable to go with their NMCs that already state thats a No Movement Clause.

Horvat JUST drafted him. So what, you want to trade your last years pick to get a pick? whats the point, let him build some value. You could move Horvat and he turns into the player today and in return you get a guy that never pans out. 

Hansen* - Traded for Goldobin and a 4th - Neither panned out 

Burrows - Traded for Dahlen - which JB then flipped and got Karlsson

Edler - Was he not one of the ones who wouldnt waive his clause right up until he hit free agency and wanted a shot at a cup?

Bieksa - A late 2nd round pick 

Hamhuis - 4.5mil cap hit with Back/hip issues, not a price people want to pay much for if anything. We aren't the only team in the league concerned with drafting anything.

Tanev - Sure we could have moved him, but was also young enough to last through a rebuild and still be effective. Might be the only cherish able asset off that roster. 

Higgins - Very little value 

Markstrom - The future goalie, once again we had nothing. Gave away Lou and Schneider, need to have at least one goalie. So that would have been extremely risky, especially since the goalie guru really loved him.

Lack - Traded for a 3rd and 7th round pick

 

Now that we see the Value of these players, lets just really solidify just how little value 90% of that list had.

After being traded, Hansen would go on to play a total of 61 games. Traded in 2016-17 and out of the league by 2017-18(46gp 2g 12a 14pts)

Burrows - would go on to play 91 games after being traded in 2016-17 out of the league at the end of the 2017-18 season(71gp 6g 8a 14pts)

Bieksa - would go on to play 3 seasons 252gp also out of the league after the 2017-18 season (59gp 0g 8a)

Hamhuis - would go on to play 4 seasons 286gp never posting more than 24pts, out of the league after 2019-20 season(60gp 0g 8a) Combined for 13pts in his last 2 seasons.

Higgins - played 33 games after 2014-15 3goals 1 assist - was out of the NHL after the 2015-16 season.

Lack - over the course of 3 more seasons, Lack would play 61 games total. 8gp in his last season Primarily in the AHL.

The original point of the argument was that the 2015 team was still at its core, still GMMG's.

 

Also, don't forget timing, when Benning started in 2015, the price tag for these guys would have been higher. The value he extracted from them was from deals done later. Bieksa for a 2nd was a great value, too bad Benning never used the pick to draft anyone, he traded it for Sutter, and the cycle continues...

 

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You call it an outlier "cause by Torts" and it wasnt a pattern. 

 

But I call you an outright liar. Doesnt look to me like Torts caused the 2015-16, 17, 18, 19 missed playoffs. Seems to me like a team that was well over the hump that declined, aged out and had no youth to infuse until 2019-20. It was certainly a pattern to follow, because we still relied on the 32 year old Sedins, 32 year old Burrows, 30 year old Higgins, 32 year old Bieksa, 30 year old Hamhuis, 29 year old Kelser and a whole bunch of plugs like Stanton, Booth, Santorelli, Weise, Weber, Dalpe, Sestito oh and those sick draft picks Jensen and Schroeder. That 2013-14 team finished exactly where they should have finished. The following season JB made several changes, through UFA and trades. But the underlying problem was still there, no legitimate prospects and talent to carry the torch.

 

Dont kid yourself, Mike Gillis ruined the future and had zero eye for talent as seen by alllll the cup winning teams the last 15 years that, even they could find players while winning. 

Funny. sure looks like an outlier to me. 

 

Willie Desjardin took that roster, deployed 1-2-3-4 tactics to it and still made the playoffs. That's all the validation that core at the time needs tbh. Again, Vancouver in 2015 was often in the top half of the league in power rankings. Torts was definitely an outlier, but it was also a team with a short shelf life, due to the aging players you just mentioned.

 

The team didn't jell with Torts. Ryan Kesler literally came out today and said he almost fought Torts. He was dysfunctional with us.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CkMHaxQPXFD/

 

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/10-crazy-things-tortorella-did-while-coaching-the-canucks

 

Mike Gillis never had the chance to set up the future. Benning didn't have the vision to see that the team he inherited had a limited shelf life, he doubled down on it by not flipping the players for assets sooner, because he wanted to win now. Which he failed at.

 

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How does one stock up on NHL talent and fill the farm? I mean we could have a handful of his players right now in the farm system and have no NHL players. 

 

To retool successfully, Due to MG and DN failures drafting, JB had to be absolutely lights out drafting in order to undo the damage. For the most part, JB was lights out. He landed us a goalie, 2 wingers, a centre and a #1 Dman. Massive pieces, which are highly important for the future. Plus Rathbone is looking quite nice right now. So we might have 2 D out of all that. Plus guys that are developing overseas or here in NA (McDonough, Klim, Hoglander, Lockwood, Silovs, Jurmo, Persson, Kunz, Truscott)

The value of the players left behind was garbage, it returned next to nothing.

 

You expect him to be patient, but you are 100% aware of the owner and his impatience along with the pressure from this fanbase (not the NFL fanbase) its almost impossible to stay patient in a Canadian market.

By trading out aging players for picks and prospects.

 

Again, JB rarely did player for picks trades, and usually when he did, he shipped them out for win-now players. He valued hockey trades, which don't work at stocking up the farm.

The fact that up till 2020 two of his top 4 D were still from GMMG's era tells you how bad he was at stocking up picks.

 

The value of the players left behind was garbage, because GMJB held onto them until their value became garbage.

 

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You expect him to be patient, but you are 100% aware of the owner and his impatience along with the pressure from this fanbase (not the NFL fanbase) its almost impossible to stay patient in a Canadian market.

Again, he bought into Ownership's vision after the break with Linden. He has to be held accountable for the results.

 

A Canadian market can be patient, just look no further than Toronto, the biggest market. Look at Montreal now.

 

Any GM that caves to the pressure of the market and fanbase isn't worthy of holding that title.

 

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- JT Miller trade netted us positive value in return, PA and JR chose not to utilize that. Far greater asset than JB ever had. - A move that needed to be made, wasnt.

- OEL is moveable by your standards of all the NMC/NTC you speak of. Garland has value so he can be used to acquire a pick - Moves that could be made

- Boeser is moveable and should net a pick or prospect - move that could be made

- Horvat - we cant really afford to lose C's but if there's a trade to be made Horvat is one of them.

 

If you look at the large majority of  reclamation projects, JB banked on former 1st round picks to regain their mojo, he wasnt gambling on 4th and 5th round guys constantly.

Look at the draft positions of each player, JB tended to always move up on the gamble, not down.

 

- As for the GM not being a secondary role, or whatever you called it. The multiple aspects like you said, you hire people to help with that "foresight" you get as much information and attention to detail as needed and you work with them. 

 

- Benning inherited 2 declining HOFers a Selke on the block with full control of his destination and which Vezina caliber goalie did he inherit? The Markstrom that let in the first shot of every game for half a season?

No arguments there, I was on team Trade Miller

 

OEL at the moment is immoveable. Because he is the double whammy of the cap hit and NMC/NTC. My GMMG examples apply because their cap hits were more reasonable at sub $5 mil.

 

I hope Boeser is moveable, somehow I'm doubting it, he's snake bitten with injury.

 

Agreed, I think Horvat is on the block.

 

Again, you are the champion of Benning drafting. I would argue that JB would have had a better shot of finding some gems in those rounds than banking on guys several years past their x-draft dates. The pro-scouting under JB was horrendous. He should have leveraged his amateur scouts more.

 

I was speaking mainly to creating a winning environment. Where the hell was it? You know why? While he had the Sedins here, there was no one to mentor outside of Jake/McCann/Bo. Benning should have been drafting the next wave of youth during his first years here.

 

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refer to the top about draft capital accumulation (a lot of those drafts where late round players were found were not positive draft capital) vs team winning % and their life cycles, because 6 cup winners kept drafting NHLers. PIT, CHI, LAK, STL, WSH, TBL.

 

I hope you read my mega list of names in written form based on the value of their draft position and the teams overall standings at the end of the regular season.

 

Yea no duh, what does almost every cup winner have in common the last 15 years? a 1st overall. Generational talent to boot. 

 

But by all means, tell me how Gillis is excused from failing to draft any real NHL players, while winning, as every team I mentioned about, did.

 

The impact of not having any REAL assets to gain picks, 8 years of lost development had far bigger impact on our future than JB drafting OJ or Francesco drafting JV.

I provided an explanation, not an excuse. When you enter a draft blind with lower picks and lower number of picks, you end up with less talent. The fact that stanley cup winners have landed low percentage hits doesn't change that. Heck, even Gillis hit on Bo Horvat.

 

Ultimately Gillis drafting was his downfall, and he paid for it. But ultimately it's an incomplete report card on whether he could have done better with higher picks. he was simply fired before he had a chance to do so.

 

JB's ultimate sin though, was taking GMMG's 8 year deficit as you said, and tacked on another 5-8 with his own mortgaging of the future to make a bubble team.

 

And unfortunately, with the moves we've seen so far. looks like we may be tacking on another 5-8 with the newest iteration of managers.

 

The constant in all this? Francesco.

 

 

 

Anyways, it's been fun, You can have the last word. Enough time has been spent on this thread. Agree to disagree. 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by DSVII

[Warhippy]

On 10/24/2022 at 10:36 PM, AnthonyG said:

1. How many of those fan bases tried to burn their city down.... twice?

 

2. Umm first off they let JG walk to UFA.... No complaints on that eh? But Tanev and Toffoli were bigger losses? Back to the main point though, its not like they went looking for a trade, Tkachuk wanted a trade out. They were pressured to make a deal. Good on them, they got a pretty good return.... But for how long will Huberdeau be a top player? Hes 29 and on a long term deal next year with a 10.5mil cap hit..... is this going to pay off for them???

 

3. The JT Miller trade, the Myers signing, the Toffoli trade... All were Foresight. After EP40's rookie year, it was clear that this team had some serious talent coming up. Boeser was looking great, Horvat was taking steps forward, Pettersson was a star player, we had Markstrom playing at a high level. We added players and we were having a pretty solid season. We stole JT Miller, we scored a top 4 RHD in Myers, something we desperately needed. You're telling me none of this was foresight when JB went and bent TBL over for JT? He saw the direction the team was heading and added. That is foresight.

 

4. His scouting credit in idk... Buffalo?? Miller, Gaustad, Pominville, Roy, Wideman, Paille, Ballard, Hejda, Macarthur,  Vanek, Stafford, Sekera - Only 3 1st rounders in that list of players. 

Was I giving him credit for Boston? Nope.

 

5. I never dismissed Gradin/Bracketts work. I clearly said, if you read anything, after the 2014 draft JB made changes to the scouting department. Meaning he knew there were issues and brought in a better scouting staff.

JUDD BRACKETT

Director of Amateur Scouting

Staff History

TEAM	POSITION	DATE SPAN	AGE SPAN	DURATION
Vancouver Canucks	Director of Amateur Scouting	Aug. 4, 2015 - Jun. 30, 2020		4 Years, 10 Months, 26 Days

 

 

 

Now on that very same note, you state JB is in a secondary role.... And the scouting work of Gradin and Brackett really deserves the credit. So does this mean JB was mis-informed on Virtanen and Juoelvi that you blame him for not taking Ehlers/Nylander/Tkachuk? Kinda confusing. One minute its Bennings fault, the next minute its all the work of the scouts. 

 

 

Also, what was your thoughts on Sakic walking into COL with, ROR, Duchene, Landeskog and Mackinnon? versus Benning walking in with... Not really sure about Horvat (weak skater at the time)

 

 

6. My point is, our current GM and POHO, worked together in PIT and the talent and upside they saw in Kapanen was greater than Pastrnak. Both are RH RW.

So is that not a little concerning? Especially when you look back and see that they really havent drafted strong for quite awhile in PIT.. No excuses, other contenders/strong playoff teams have drafted well later in rounds. 

 

7. Whos selling the vision to who?? FA doesnt want a rebuild, so its his fault, but its Benning that failed to 1) draft and produce enough NHLers to replace the Twins, Bieksa, Burrows, Hansen, Hamhuis etc etc etc.... With 8 years of lagging behind development.

 

8A. So Benning botched us long term by trading 2 1sts? But 8 years of failed drafting had ZERO implications on the future? Can you please explain and make some sense about that? He's the only GM in the last 15 years to actually draft several NHL talented players. IDGAF about draft position. He found McCann and Boeser where MG found Schroeder and Shinkaruk. Dont give excuses. 

8B.

Tanev?

2012-13	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	38	2	5	7	10	4
2013-14	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	64	6	11	17	8	12
2014-15	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	70	2	18	20	12	8

Kassian??

2012-13	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	39	7	4	11	51	-7	4	0	0	0	4
2013-14	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	73	14	15	29	124	-4	--	--	--	--	--
2014-15	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	42	10	6	16	81	-5

Edler? 

2013-14

Vancouver Canucks

NHL

63

7

15

22

50

-39

Hansen?? 

2013-14	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	71	11	9	20	43	-9	--	--	--	--	--
2014-15	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	81	16	17	33	27	-6

Like do these kinda players really look like the type of players to net you mid to high firsts or high end prospects?..... Not likely. But

ROR

2011-12	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	81	18	37	55	12	-1	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Magnitogorsk Metallurg	KHL	12	5	5	10	2	6	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	29	6	14	20	4	-3	--	--	--	--	--
2013-14	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	80	28	36	64	2	-1	7	2	4	6	0
2014-15	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	82	17	38	55	12	-5

 

and 

2009-10	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	81	24	31	55	16	1	6	0	3	3	0
2010-11	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	80	27	40	67	33	-8	--	--	--	--	--
2011-12	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	58	14	14	28	8	-11	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Frolunda HC	SEL	19	4	10	14	12	10	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Ambri-Piotta	Swiss-A	4	2	3	5	2	2	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	47	17	26	43	12	-12	--	--	--	--	--
2013-14	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	71	23	47	70	19	8	2	0	3	3	2
2014-15	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	82	21	34	55	16	3	--	--	--	--	--
2015-16	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	76	30	29	59	24	-8	--	--	--	--	--
2016-17	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	77	18	23	41	12	-34	--	--	--	--	--
2017-18	Colorado Avalanche	NHL	14	4	6	10	4	1	--	--	--	--	--
2017-18	Ottawa Senators	NHL	68	23	26	49	14	-23

Duchene sure do.

 

8C. Sorry maybe didnt inherit "nothing" but sure didnt inherit much at all compared to what Sakic inheritted. Or Gorton in NY.

 

9. If you're talking about the 2014-15 team being a 100pt team.... That was Bennings team bud. He took them from 23rd to 8th in one offseason, through free agency. In fact those were actually pieces that Burke and Nonis left behind.... Not Gillis. They left those behind for Gillis to put pen to paper.... He should be thankful for Burke and Nonis' 1 good draft.

Burrows.. Bieksa... Kesler... Hansen....Edler... Etc.

 

Benning inheritted Gillis's 23rd overall team.

 

10. These guys had value?!?!?!?! are you serious??? At no point did I ever feel like these guys had value. I mean maybe they could have been moved for 3rd or 4th round picks and beyond? But is that positive or negative value, seeing how some of those guys were 1st round picks lol. By the time he did inherit these "gems" they were already passing the point of becoming an NHLer, aside from Shinkaruk who was just drafted, but he really didnt do a whole lot. We did move Lack and Shinkaruk, we got Granlund and a 3rd and a 7th lmao. I think you are overvaluing these guys then and now. 

 

11. Are you actually listening to yourself? So Benning has to draft and develop... sorry draft and ice NHLers right out of the gates.... REBUILD the team, make playoffs AND fill the farm system???? Like in what world do you live in that this expectation is realistic???? MAAAAYBE if Gillis could draft a couple players, that would be a little more attainable.... BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Gillis couldnt draft for the life of him. 8 years between him and Nonis, how many times do I have to repeat myself. THAT IS AN 8 YEAR TALENT DEFICIT. NO DEVELOPMENT for 8 FVCKING YEARS. And its Bennings fault he didnt fill the farm with prospects? Come on man. 

 

12. Umm once again... He inheritted A Norris winning dman, a 60goal scorer in Stamkos and Killorn. 3 important pieces to start off. Also I thought the GM was a secondary role? One GM gets the praise, the other gets the blame. Right.

 

Lets just look at his timeline.....

STEVE YZERMAN

General Manager

 

Staff History

TEAM	POSITION	DATE SPAN	AGE SPAN	DURATION
Tampa Bay Lightning	General Manager	May 25, 2010 - Sep. 11, 2018	45 - 53	8 Years, 3 Months, 17 Days

 

 

When did TBL win their first cup? OH 2019-20, 2 years after Stevie Y stepped down and 11 Years after drafting Steven Stamkos 1st overall.

 

 

13. You want to see Hockey purgatory??? We have our core pieces locked up. Not too worried about this "cap crunch" with a rumoured 4 mil increase next  year. Anyways lets see what a real hockey purgatory is. I'll start with Gillis and Nonis who sent us to purgatory

 

2013 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2013 Entry	9	1	Bo Horvat	C	London Knights [OHL]	578	174	197	371	190
2013 Entry	24	1	Hunter Shinkaruk	L	Medicine Hat Tigers [WHL]	15	2	2	4	4
2013 Entry	85	3	Cole Cassels	C	Oshawa Generals [OHL]
2013 Entry	115	4	Jordan Subban	D	Belleville Bulls [OHL]
2013 Entry	145	5	Anton Cederholm	D	Rogle Jrs. (Sweden)
2013 Entry	175	6	Mike Williamson	D	Spruce Grove Saints [AJHL]
2013 Entry	205	7	Miles Liberati	D	London Knights [OHL]
2012 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2012 Entry	26	1	Brendan Gaunce	C	Belleville Bulls [OHL]	148	11	12	23	59
2012 Entry	57	2	Alexandre Mallet	C	Rimouski Oceanic [QMJHL]
2012 Entry	147	5	Ben Hutton	D	Nepean Raiders [CCHL]	438	19	85	104	168
2012 Entry	177	6	Wesley Myron	F	Victoria Grizzlies [BCHL]
2012 Entry	207	7	Matthew Beattie	R	Exeter [N.H. H.S.]
2011 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2011 Entry	29	1	Nicklas Jensen	R	Oshawa Generals [OHL]	31	3	3	6	10
2011 Entry	71	3	David Honzik	G	Victoriaville Tigres [QMJHL]
2011 Entry	90	3	Alexandre Grenier	R	Quebec Remparts [QMJHL]	9	0	0	0	2
2011 Entry	101	4	Joseph LaBate	L	Holy Angels Academy (Minn.)	13	0	0	0	21
2011 Entry	120	4	Ludwig Blomstrand	L	Djurgardens Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2011 Entry	150	5	Frankie Corrado	D	Sudbury Wolves [OHL]	76	3	5	8	40
2011 Entry	180	6	Pathrik Westerholm	L	Malmo Redhawks [Swe-1]
2011 Entry	210	7	Henrik Tommernes	D	Frolunda HC [SEL]
2010 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2010 Entry	115	4	Patrick McNally	D	Milton Academy [Mass.]
2010 Entry	145	5	Adam Polasek	D	Prince Edward Island Rocket [QMJHL]
2010 Entry	172	6	Alex Friesen	C	Niagara IceDogs [OHL]	1	0	0	0	0
2010 Entry	175	6	Jonathan Iilahti	G	Blues Jrs (Finland)
2010 Entry	205	7	Sawyer Hannay	D	Halifax Mooseheads [QMJHL]
2009 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2009 Entry	22	1	Jordan Schroeder	L	U. of Minnesota [WCHA]	165	18	24	42	14
2009 Entry	53	2	Anton Rodin	R	Brynas Jr. [Swe-Jr]	3	0	1	1	0
2009 Entry	83	3	Kevin Connauton	D	Western Michigan University [CCHA]	360	28	52	80	188
2009 Entry	113	4	Jeremy Price	D	Nepean Raiders [CJHL]
2009 Entry	143	5	Peter Andersson	D	Vastra Frolunda Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2009 Entry	173	6	Joe Cannata	G	Merrimack College [H-East]
2009 Entry	187	7	Steven Anthony	L	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]
2008 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2008 Entry	10	1	Cody Hodgson	C	Brampton Battalion [OHL]	328	64	78	142	68
2008 Entry	41	2	Yann Sauve	D	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]	8	0	0	0	0
2008 Entry	131	5	Prabh Rai	C	Seattle Thunderbirds [WHL]
2008 Entry	161	6	Mats Josten-Froshaug	C	Linkoping HC Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2008 Entry	191	7	Morgan Clark	G	Red Deer Rebels [WHL]
2007 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2007 Entry	25	1	Patrick White	C	Tri-City Storm [USHL]
2007 Entry	33	2	Taylor Ellington	D	Everett Silvertips [WHL]
2007 Entry	145	5	Charles-Antoine Messier	C	Baie-Comeau Drakkar [QMJHL]
2007 Entry	146	5	Ilya Kablukov	W	CSKA Moscow [Russia]
2007 Entry	176	6	Taylor Matson	C	Des Moines Buccaneers [USHL]
2007 Entry	206	7	Dan Gendur	C	Everett Silvertips [WHL]
2006 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2006 Entry	14	1	Michael Grabner	R	Spokane Chiefs [WHL]	640	175	101	276	110
2006 Entry	82	3	Daniel Rahimi	D	Bjorkloven Jr. [Sweden]
2006 Entry	163	6	Sergei Shirokov	R	CSKA Moscow [Russia]	8	1	0	1	2
2006 Entry	167	6	Juraj Simek	W	Kloten HC [Swiss-A]
2006 Entry	197	7	Evan Fuller	C	Prince George Cougars [WHL]
2005 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2005 Entry	10	1	Luc Bourdon	D	Val d'Or Foreurs [QMJHL]	36	2	0	2	24
2005 Entry	51	2	Mason Raymond	L	Camrose Kodiaks [AJHL]	546	115	136	251	156
2005 Entry	114	4	Alexandre Vincent	G	Chicoutimi Sagueneens [QMJHL]
2005 Entry	138	5	Matt Butcher	C	Chilliwack Chiefs [BCHL]
2005 Entry	185	6	Kris Fredheim	D	Notre Dame Hounds [SJHL]	3	0	0	0	2
2005 Entry	205	7	Mario Bliznak	C	Dubnica Spartak HC [Slovak]	6	1	0	1	0

 

 

 

 

How about Our current GM/POHO?

2020 Entry	52	2	Joel Blomqvist	G	Karpat [SM-liiga]
2020 Entry	77	3	Calle Clang	G	Kristianstad Jrs. (Sweden)
2020 Entry	108	4	Lukas Svejkovsky	C	Medicine Hat Tigers [WHL]
2020 Entry	149	5	Raivis Ansons	R	Baie-Comeau Drakkar [QMJHL]
2020 Entry	170	6	Chase Yoder	F	U.S. National Under-18 Team [USHL]
2019 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2019 Entry	21	1	Samuel Poulin	R	Sherbrooke Phoenix [QMJHL]
2019 Entry	74	3	Nathan Legare	R	Baie-Comeau Drakkar [QMJHL]
2019 Entry	145	5	Judd Caulfield	R	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]
2019 Entry	203	7	Valtteri Puustinen	R	HPK Hameenlinna [SM-liiga]	1	0	1	1	0
2019 Entry	211	7	Santeri Airola	D	Saipa [Finland Jrs.]
2018 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2018 Entry	53	2	Calen Addison	D	Lethbridge Hurricanes [WHL]	23	2	8	10	2
2018 Entry	58	2	Filip Hallander	C	Timra IK [Swe-1]	1	0	0	0	0
2018 Entry	129	5	Justin Almeida	C	Moose Jaw Warriors [WHL]
2018 Entry	177	6	Liam Gorman	F	St. Sebastian's School (Mass. H.S.)
2017 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2017 Entry	51	2	Zachary Lauzon	D	Rouyn-Noranda Huskies [QMJHL]
2017 Entry	93	3	Clayton Phillips	D	Fargo Force [USHL]
2017 Entry	152	5	Jan Drozg	R	Leksand [Sweden-Jrs]
2017 Entry	155	5	Linus Olund	C	Brynas IF Gavle [SweHL]
2017 Entry	186	6	Antti Palojarvi	D	Lukko [Finland-Jrs]
2017 Entry	217	7	Will Reilly	D	R.P.I. [ECAC]
2016 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2016 Entry	55	2	Filip Gustavsson	G	Lulea HF [SweHL]	29	0	1	1	0
2016 Entry	61	2	Kasper Bjorkqvist	R	Blues Jrs (Finland)	6	1	0	1	2
2016 Entry	77	3	Connor Hall	D	Kitchener Rangers [OHL]
2016 Entry	121	4	Ryan Jones	D	Lincoln Stars [USHL]
2016 Entry	151	5	Niclas Almari	D	Jokerit Jrs (Finland)
2016 Entry	181	6	Joe Masonius	D	U. of Connecticut [H-East]
2015 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2015 Entry	46	2	Daniel Sprong	R	Charlottetown Islanders [QMJHL]	203	46	24	70	30
2015 Entry	137	5	Dominik Simon	C	Plzen HC [Czech]	256	22	55	77	80
2015 Entry	167	6	Frederik Tiffels	F	Western Michigan University [NCHC]
2015 Entry	197	7	Nikita Pavlychev	C	Des Moines Buccaneers [USHL]
2014 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2014 Entry	22	1	Kasperi Kapanen	R	KalPa Kuopio [SM-liiga]	326	64	93	157	78
2014 Entry	113	4	Sam Lafferty	C	Deerfield Academy (Mass. H.S.)	145	13	24	37	90
2014 Entry	145	5	Anthony Angello	C	Omaha Lancers [USHL]	31	3	2	5	14
2014 Entry	173	6	Jaden Lindo	R	Owen Sound Attack [OHL]
2014 Entry	203	7	Jeff Taylor	D	Union College [ECAC]
2013 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2013 Entry	44	2	Tristan Jarry	G	Edmonton Oil Kings [WHL]	163	0	8	8	18
2013 Entry	77	3	Jake Guentzel	L	Sioux City Musketeers [USHL]	379	164	182	346	168
2013 Entry	119	4	Ryan Segalla	D	Salisbury (Conn. H.S.)
2013 Entry	164	6	Dane Birks	D	Merritt Centennials [BCHL]
2013 Entry	179	6	Blaine Byron	C	Smiths Falls Bears [CCHL]
2013 Entry	209	7	Troy Josephs	C	St. Michael's Buzzers [OJHL]
2012 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2012 Entry	8	1	Derrick Pouliot	D	Portland Winterhawks [WHL]	213	8	44	52	85
2012 Entry	22	1	Olli Maatta	D	London Knights [OHL]	539	31	110	141	134
2012 Entry	52	2	Teddy Blueger	C	Shattuck St. Mary's [Minn. H.S]	205	31	51	82	66
2012 Entry	81	3	Oskar Sundqvist	C	Skelleftea AIK Jr. [Swe-Jr]	293	41	59	100	121
2012 Entry	83	3	Matt Murray	G	Soo Greyhounds [OHL]	247	0	5	5	10
2012 Entry	92	4	Matia Marcantuoni	C	Kitchener Rangers [OHL]
2012 Entry	113	4	Sean Maguire	G	Powell River Kings [BCHL]
2012 Entry	143	5	Clark Seymour	D	Peterborough Petes [OHL]
2012 Entry	173	6	Anton Zlobin	L	Shawinigan Cataractes [QMJHL]

 

 

Montreal? and Boston?

2020 Entry	58	2	Mason Lohrei	D	Green Bay Gamblers [USHL]
2020 Entry	89	3	Trevor Kuntar	L	Youngstown Phantoms [USHL]
2020 Entry	151	5	Mason Langenbrunner	D	Eden Prairie (Minn. H.S.)
2020 Entry	182	6	Riley Duran	C	Lawrence Academy (Mass. H.S.)
2019 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2019 Entry	30	1	John Beecher	C	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]
2019 Entry	92	3	Quinn Olson	L	Okotoks Oilers [AJHL]
2019 Entry	154	5	Roman Bychkov	D	Yaroslavl [Russia Jrs.]
2019 Entry	185	6	Matias Mantykivi	F	Saipa [Finland Jrs.]
2019 Entry	192	7	Jake Schmaltz	F	Chicago Steel [USHL]
2018 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2018 Entry	57	2	Axel Andersson	D	Djurgarden-2 (Sweden Jrs.)
2018 Entry	77	3	Jakub Lauko	C	Chomutov Pirati [Czech]	4	0	1	1	2
2018 Entry	119	4	Curtis Hall	C	Youngstown Phantoms [USHL]
2018 Entry	181	6	Dustyn McFaul	D	Pickering Panthers [OJHL]
2018 Entry	212	7	Pavel Shen	C	Khanty-Mansiysk Yugra [KHL]
2017 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2017 Entry	18	1	Urho Vaakanainen	D	JyP HT Jyvaskyla [SM-liiga]	45	0	8	8	12
2017 Entry	53	2	Jack Studnicka	C	Oshawa Generals [OHL]	38	1	6	7	10
2017 Entry	111	4	Jeremy Swayman	G	Sioux Falls Stampede [USHL]	53	0	0	0	6
2017 Entry	173	6	Cedric Pare	C	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]
2017 Entry	195	7	Victor Berglund	D	MODO [Sweden-Jrs]
2017 Entry	204	7	Daniel Bukac	D	Brandon Wheat Kings [WHL]
2016 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2016 Entry	14	1	Charlie McAvoy	D	Boston University [H-East]	313	34	144	178	243
2016 Entry	29	1	Trent Frederic	C	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]	124	13	12	25	144
2016 Entry	49	2	Ryan Lindgren	D	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]	200	6	41	47	144
2016 Entry	135	5	Joona Koppanen	L	Ilves Jrs (Finland)
2016 Entry	136	5	Cameron Clarke	D	Lone Star Brahmas [NAHL]
2016 Entry	165	6	Oskar Steen	C	Farjestad Jrs (Sweden)	23	2	4	6	8
2015 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2015 Entry	13	1	Jakub Zboril	D	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]	60	0	12	12	22
2015 Entry	14	1	Jake DeBrusk	L	Swift Current Broncos [WHL]	326	94	87	181	67
2015 Entry	15	1	Zachary Senyshyn	R	Soo Greyhounds [OHL]	16	1	2	3	4
2015 Entry	37	2	Brandon Carlo	D	Tri-City Americans [WHL]	405	21	49	70	231
2015 Entry	45	2	Jakob Forsbacka-Karlsson	C	Omaha Lancers [USHL]	29	3	6	9	2
2015 Entry	52	2	Jeremy Lauzon	D	Rouyn-Noranda Huskies [QMJHL]	145	5	13	18	158
2015 Entry	75	3	Daniel Vladar	G	Kladno Jrs. (Czech Rep.)	30	0	1	1	0
2015 Entry	105	4	Jesse Gabrielle	L	Regina Pats [WHL]
2015 Entry	165	6	Cameron Hughes	C	U. of Wisconsin [Big-10]	2	0	0	0	0
2015 Entry	195	7	Jack Becker	C	Mahtomedi (Minn. H.S.)
2014 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2014 Entry	25	1	David Pastrnak	R	Sodertalje SK [Swe-1]	516	244	270	514	219
2014 Entry	56	2	Ryan Donato	C	Dexter School (Mass H.S.)	260	52	58	110	82
2014 Entry	116	4	Danton Heinen	L	Surrey Eagles [BCHL]	353	65	95	160	62
2014 Entry	146	5	Anders Bjork	L	U.S. National Under-18 Team [USHL]	211	24	29	53	42
2014 Entry	206	7	Emil Johansson	D	HV71 (Sweden Jrs.)
2013 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2013 Entry	60	2	Linus Arnesson	D	Djurgarden Jrs. (Sweden)
2013 Entry	90	3	Peter Cehlarik	R	Lulea Jrs. (Sweden)	40	5	6	11	10
2013 Entry	120	4	Ryan Fitzgerald	C	Valley Jr. Warriors [EJHL]
2013 Entry	150	5	Wiley Sherman	D	Hotchkiss (Conn. H.S.)
2013 Entry	180	6	Anton Blidh	L	Frolunda Jrs. (Sweden)	71	4	8	12	37
2013 Entry	210	7	Mitchell Dempsey	L	Soo Greyhounds [OHL]
2012 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2012 Entry	24	1	Malcolm Subban	G	Belleville Bulls [OHL]	86	0	0	0	6
2012 Entry	85	3	Matt Grzelcyk	D	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]	309	19	81	100	172
2012 Entry	131	5	Seth Griffith	C	London Knights [OHL]	80	8	11	19	24
2012 Entry	145	5	Cody Payne	C	Plymouth Whalers [OHL]
2012 Entry	175	6	Matt Benning	D	Spruce Grove Saints [AJHL]	374	16	61	77	205
2012 Entry	205	7	Colton Hargrove	L	Fargo Force [USHL]

 

 

2020 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2020 Entry	16	1	Kaiden Guhle	D	Prince Albert Raiders [WHL]	6	0	2	2	7
2020 Entry	47	2	Luke Tuch	F	U.S. National Under-18 Team [USHL]
2020 Entry	48	2	Jan Mysak	C	Hamilton Bulldogs [OHL]
2020 Entry	102	4	Jack Smith	C	St. Cloud Cathedral (Wisc. H.S.)
2020 Entry	109	4	Blake Biondi	C	Hermantown (Minn. H.S.)
2020 Entry	124	4	Sean Farrell	L	Chicago Steel [USHL]
2020 Entry	136	5	Jakub Dobes	G	Omaha Lancers [USHL]
2020 Entry	171	6	Alexander Gordin	R	St. Petersburg Jrs. (Russia)
2019 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2019 Entry	15	1	Cole Caufield	R	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]	83	31	22	53	12
2019 Entry	46	2	Jayden Struble	D	St. Sebastiens [U.S. H.S.]
2019 Entry	64	3	Mattias Norlinder	D	MODO [Sweden Jrs.]	6	0	1	1	2
2019 Entry	77	3	Gianni Fairbrother	D	Everett Silvertips [WHL]
2019 Entry	126	5	Jacob Leguerrier	D	Soo Greyhounds [OHL]
2019 Entry	131	5	Rhett Pitlick	L	Chaska [Minn H.S.]
2019 Entry	138	5	Frederik Dichow	G	Vojens [Denmark Jrs.]
2019 Entry	170	6	Arsen Khisamutdinov	R	Nizhnekamsk [Russia Jrs.]
2019 Entry	201	7	Rafael Harvey-Pinard	L	Rouyn-Noranda Huskies [QMJHL]	4	1	0	1	0
2019 Entry	206	7	Kieran Ruscheinski	D	Calgary Northstars Midget AAA
2018 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2018 Entry	3	1	Jesperi Kotkaniemi	C	Assat Pori [SM-liiga]	242	34	59	93	100
2018 Entry	35	2	Jesse Ylonen	R	Espoo (Finland Jrs)	15	2	3	5	2
2018 Entry	38	2	Alexander Romanov	D	CSKA-2 (Russia Jrs.)	139	4	15	19	76
2018 Entry	56	2	Jacob Olofsson	C	Timra IK [Swe-1]
2018 Entry	66	3	Cam Hillis	C	Guelph Storm [OHL]	1	0	0	0	0
2018 Entry	71	3	Jordan Harris	D	Kimball-Union (New Hamp. H.S.)	16	1	1	2	10
2018 Entry	97	4	Allan McShane	C	Oshawa Generals [OHL]
2018 Entry	123	4	Jack Gorniak	L	West Salem (Wisc. H.S.)
2018 Entry	128	5	Cole Fonstad	L	Prince Albert Raiders [WHL]
2018 Entry	133	5	Samuel Houde	C	Chicoutimi Sagueneens [QMJHL]
2018 Entry	190	7	Brett Stapley	C	Vernon Vipers [BCHL]
2017 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2017 Entry	25	1	Ryan Poehling	C	St. Cloud State [NCHC]	90	14	10	24	10
2017 Entry	56	2	Josh Brook	D	Moose Jaw Warriors [WHL]
2017 Entry	58	2	Joni Ikonen	C	Frolunda [Sweden-Jr]
2017 Entry	68	3	Scott Walford	D	Victoria Royals [WHL]
2017 Entry	87	3	Cale Fleury	D	Kootenay Ice [WHL]	50	1	0	1	6
2017 Entry	149	5	Jarret Tyszka	D	Seattle Thunderbirds [WHL]
2017 Entry	199	7	Cayden Primeau	G	Lincoln Stars [USHL]	18	0	0	0	0
2016 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2016 Entry	9	1	Mikhail Sergachev	D	Windsor Spitfires [OHL]	368	36	142	178	221
2016 Entry	70	3	William Bitten	C	Flint Firebirds [OHL]
2016 Entry	100	4	Victor Mete	D	London Knights [OHL]	238	5	38	43	42
2016 Entry	124	5	Casey Staum	D	Grand Rapids (Minn. H.S.)
2016 Entry	160	6	Michael Pezzetta	L	Sudbury Wolves [OHL]	51	5	6	11	81
2016 Entry	187	7	Arvid Henrikson	D	AIK Jrs (Sweden)
2015 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2015 Entry	26	1	Noah Juulsen	D	Everett Silvertips [WHL]	58	2	8	10	10
2015 Entry	87	3	Lukas Vejdemo	C	Djurgardens Jrs. (Sweden)	13	2	0	2	0
2015 Entry	131	5	Matt Bradley	C	Medicine Hat Tigers [WHL]
2015 Entry	177	6	Simon Bourque	D	Rimouski Oceanic [QMJHL]
2015 Entry	207	7	Jeremiah Addison	L	Ottawa 67's [OHL]
2014 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2014 Entry	26	1	Nikita Scherbak	R	Saskatoon Blades [WHL]	37	6	2	8	10
2014 Entry	73	3	Brett Lernout	D	Swift Current Broncos [WHL]	21	0	1	1	6
2014 Entry	125	5	Nikolas Koberstein	D	Olds Grizzlys [AJHL]
2014 Entry	147	5	Daniel Audette	C	Sherbrooke Phoenix [QMJHL]
2014 Entry	177	6	Hayden Hawkey	G	Omaha Lancers [USHL]
2014 Entry	207	7	Jake Evans	C	St. Michael's Buzzers [OJHL]	138	18	28	46	51
2013 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2013 Entry	25	1	Michael McCarron	R	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]	128	9	13	22	196
2013 Entry	34	2	Jacob De La Rose	C	Leksands IF [Swe-1]	242	13	25	38	84
2013 Entry	36	2	Zachary Fucale	G	Halifax Mooseheads [QMJHL]	4	0	0	0	0
2013 Entry	55	2	Artturi Lehkonen	L	KalPa Kuopio [SM-liiga]	418	82	81	163	118
2013 Entry	71	3	Connor Crisp	C	Erie Otters [OHL]
2013 Entry	86	3	Sven Andrighetto	R	Rouyn-Noranda Huskies [QMJHL]	216	31	52	83	42
2013 Entry	116	4	Martin Reway	L	Gatineau Olympiques [QMJHL]
2013 Entry	176	6	Jeremy Gregoire	C	Baie-Comeau Drakkar [QMJHL]
2012 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2012 Entry	3	1	Alex Galchenyuk	C	Sarnia Sting [OHL]	643	146	208	354	253
2012 Entry	33	2	Sebastian Collberg	R	Frolunda HC [SEL]
2012 Entry	51	2	Dalton Thrower	D	Saskatoon Blades [WHL]
2012 Entry	64	3	Tim Bozon	L	Kamloops Blazers [WHL]
2012 Entry	94	4	Brady Vail	C	Windsor Spitfires [OHL]
2012 Entry	122	5	Charles Hudon	L	Chicoutimi Sagueneens [QMJHL]	125	14	27	41	56
2012 Entry	154	6	Erik Nystrom	L	MODO Hockey Ornskoldsvik [SEL]
2011 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2011 Entry	17	1	Nathan Beaulieu	D	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]	422	12	82	94	305
2011 Entry	97	4	Josiah Didier	D	Cedar Rapids RoughRiders [USHL]
2011 Entry	108	4	Olivier Archambault	L	Val d'Or Foreurs [QMJHL]
2011 Entry	113	4	Magnus Nygren	D	Farjestads BK Karlstad [SEL]
2011 Entry	138	5	Darren Dietz	D	Saskatoon Blades [WHL]	13	1	4	5	13
2011 Entry	168	6	Daniel Pribyl	C	Sparta Jrs. (Czech Rep)
2011 Entry	198	7	Colin Sullivan	D	Avon Old Farms H.S. (Conn.)

 

 

 

contracts expire, the cap will rise. not being able to draft, sends you to purgatory. Just wait for it, these teams are absolutely f***ed and thats just a few to name. But Hey our GM missed in a couple drafts and gave up a couple 1sts for roster players and we're the ones heading to purgatory.....

 

Allvin and JR had their moment to make  an impact on the future and they chose to resign Miller. Thats not on JB, he handed them valuable assets that he never had. 

JT Miller, Boeser, Garland and a few others with decent value, plus some prospects.

This great post made me sad.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

On 10/24/2022 at 8:03 PM, AnthonyG said:

Its moreso on that hill with Gillis and Nonis. Benning is the fall man for the prior years of failed drafting.

Nonis drafted Schneider (which enabled us to get Horvat) & also drafted Edler (who is STILL playing hockey today).  Never had a 1st round pick higher than 10th (Luc Bourdon) compared to Benning who only drafted ONCE worse than 10th in the first round in seven years.  Was only GM for four drafts.  Signed Willie Mitchell via free agency > any defenseman that Benning acquired via free agency or trade in SEVEN YEARS.

 

But best of all, he was able to hire a NHL head coach on his first try - Alain Vigneault.  Benning?  In SEVEN YEARS, he got the Canucks Willie Desjardins & Travis Green.

 

Nonis > Benning.

Edited October 29, 2022 by NewbieCanuckFan

[MaxVerstappen33]

On 10/26/2022 at 11:18 PM, DSVII said:

 

 

 

 

The constant in all this? Francesco.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wish managers in the league would stop singing up to do the impossible for Francesco. But their ego gets in the way. Jim Benning thought he could do it. And he got one part of it right.

 

But Now a 72 year old man who should have been retired 5 years ago is arrogant enough to try it. 

 

I wonder how many GM's turned the job down after they heard the mandate. We know Gillis and Linden did.

Edited October 29, 2022 by MaxVerstappen33

[Timråfan]

7 hours ago, iceman64 said:

Give your head a shake idiot... Your the last person who should be calling ANYONE incompetent...  Don't like the nux? F off and go cheer for Calgary, you'd fit right in.

What has Benning with the Nux to do? 
He’s just a bad GM and waste of Nuxs time..,