Cant miss opportunity again. Trade Horvat now before Kane, Toews, Teresenko flood market

[aGENT]

7 minutes ago, DSVII said:

Ill agree to disagree. OEL's contract is a top 3 of the problem for a few reasons.

 

The opportunity cost of not having Dylan Guenther and ~12 mil in cap space to make trades this offseason for players like Marino and paying a 2nd to get under the cap with Dickinson. 

 

The fact that he's got 5 years left and the sample size for those players aging well as a top 4 D into his mid-late 30s isn't encouraging.

 

We already have an offensive D man in Quinn Hughes on LHD. That trade didn't address our RHD but unbalanced the D and the books.

 

 I do agree though. We still can course correct but we have to make a painful decision and move some key/core players out. One that our team has been avoiding since 2014.

 

 

 

Most high end D play well until 34-35 with less of a steep drop off than forwards generally see (at 32-33). I'm not all that concerned about his deal being an Eriksson like albatross. At worst we have a couple mildly inefficient years at the end.

 

And personally, I see the ability to put him and Hughes out there, on seperate pairs, for +/- 50 minutes as a huge advantage... IF we can make to actually get them some supportive partners (and forwards that actually support the puck).

 

And if we'd simply moved Miller like we should have, we could have added Marino.

 

Holtby/Virtanen money, ill fitting Myers, Ferland, Poolman extended Miller, redundant Garland... All FAR bigger issues IMO. OEL isn't anywhere near the top 3 there.

[ShawnAntoski]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

Our we could do what we should have done last spring/summer and move Miller (among others), and keep Bo (assuming we can still do so/he wants to even stay).

 

If he wants out, we should be selling vets, Miller included too.

 

Bo is really the linchpin in what Allvin's team will look like moving forward. 

Yeah, but the short term deals Aquaman gave, JR & friends are quite concerning cause they seemed to be more worried about their contracts, instead of fixing the team.  Just look at what Illich gave Yzerman and it seems that roster is ready to contend, after 3 years of rebuilding vs 8 yrs of retooling under a malleable GM.

Edited November 13, 2022 by ShawnAntoski

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Yeah, but the short term deals Aquaman gave the JR & friends are quite concerning cause they seemed to be more worried about their contracts, instead of fixing the team.  Just look at what Illich gave Yzerman and it seems that roster is ready to contend, after 3 years of rebuilding..

And Yzerman won’t stop his rebuild until it’s done to his satisfaction.  Our owner will not allow a competent rebuild.  

[ShawnAntoski]

5 minutes ago, Alflives said:

And Yzerman won’t stop his rebuild until it’s done to his satisfaction.  Our owner will not allow a competent rebuild.  

Yup.  To Aquamans own peril and to the fans continued frustration....

Edited November 13, 2022 by ShawnAntoski

[Lumme21]

3 hours ago, aGENT said:

Most high end D play well until 34-35 with less of a steep drop off than forwards generally see (at 32-33). I'm not all that concerned about his deal being an Eriksson like albatross. At worst we have a couple mildly inefficient years at the end.

 

And personally, I see the ability to put him and Hughes out there, on seperate pairs, for +/- 50 minutes as a huge advantage... IF we can make to actually get them some supportive partners (and forwards that actually support the puck).

 

And if we'd simply moved Miller like we should have, we could have added Marino.

 

Holtby/Virtanen money, ill fitting Myers, Ferland, Poolman extended Miller, redundant Garland... All FAR bigger issues IMO. OEL isn't anywhere near the top 3 there.

Are you still enamored with the OEL from the 2015/2016 season? Arizona wanted to move him because he was inefficient then already. OEL has been terrible this year, and is already woefully inefficient. That trade was terrible, but yet I would say the majority of people went along with the narrative that it was needed to shed the dead weight of Beagle, Roussel, and Loui. Those contracts only had 1 year remaining. So short sighted.

[Lumme21]

3 hours ago, DSVII said:

Ill agree to disagree. OEL's contract is a top 3 of the problem for a few reasons.

 

The opportunity cost of not having Dylan Guenther and ~12 mil in cap space to make trades this offseason for players like Marino and paying a 2nd to get under the cap with Dickinson. 

The talent bleed didn't just stop with Dylan Guenther. 3 right handed defenceman were taken after the 2nd round pick Vancouver traded last year as well (Mattias Havelid, Seasmus Casey, and Christian Kyrou). Any one of those 3 picks would instantly have been our best defensive prospect.

[aGENT]

54 minutes ago, Lumme21 said:

Are you still enamored with the OEL from the 2015/2016 season? Arizona wanted to move him because he was inefficient then already. OEL has been terrible this year, and is already woefully inefficient. That trade was terrible, but yet I would say the majority of people went along with the narrative that it was needed to shed the dead weight of Beagle, Roussel, and Loui. Those contracts only had 1 year remaining. So short sighted.

The list of who hasn't been terrible on the Canucks this season is pretty short. And I'm pretty sure he's playing banged up on top of that, on a D core (and team) that's horribly constructed and does not play defense, or support it's defense. 

 

The guy proved he could still play last year, especially when Hughes was out. Is it "OMG the best contract ever!"? No. Is he/his contract even in the top 5 reasons for this bad season? Nope.

 

Just like the hate Edler got in bad seasons here, the hate against OEL is equally misplaced.

[IBatch]

19 hours ago, DSVII said:

Ill agree to disagree. OEL's contract is a top 3 of the problem for a few reasons.

 

The opportunity cost of not having Dylan Guenther and ~12 mil in cap space to make trades this offseason for players like Marino and paying a 2nd to get under the cap with Dickinson. 

 

The fact that he's got 5 years left and the sample size for those players aging well as a top 4 D into his mid-late 30s isn't encouraging.

 

We already have an offensive D man in Quinn Hughes on LHD. That trade didn't address our RHD but unbalanced the D and the books.

 

 I do agree though. We still can course correct but we have to make a painful decision and move some key/core players out. One that our team has been avoiding since 2014.

 

 

 

OEL is part of the problem.   But he's not the main problem.   As of right now we have exactly two anchors, and one of them is probably still an asset other teams would consider (Miller).    COL had an anchor  - Erik Johnson.   They worked around him, OEL isn't any different.   Most playoff teams have a couple, as do a lot of contenders since the cap started.   OEL and Miller aren't that terrible IF thats as far as we go.   We could still have OEL on the third pairing and Miller as a middle six vet and make it work.   Doubt Miller will be less of an anchor as the ONE Sedin was their last deal for example.    

 

What worries me the most is we double down and triple down and end up with zero movement capability with a mediocre or bad team.     That's where we could be headed without a re-set.   Cap should go up enough to keep most of the same together and a Myers replacement that's about it.    So if we upgraded on Myers is that going to be enough?   Not unless guys get better internally.   EP and QHs should, the rest is already what you see is what you get other then maybe a better season every now and again when they are 28-32...

Edited November 14, 2022 by IBatch

[MaxVerstappen33]

Lets talk about minimal acceptable trade returns for Horvat. What is the minimum you would go ? We have to ask this bc that's why a Miller trade didn't get done.

 

A top 10-20 pick + meh prospect ?

 

A high 2nd and a Podkolzin level prospect ? 

 

A RHD roster player + 2nd ?

 

I'm just asking. I have no idea what ppl think the minimum returns have to be. 

 

 

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

Lets talk about minimal acceptable trade returns for Horvat. What is the minimum you would go ? We have to ask this bc that's why a Miller trade didn't get done.

 

A top 10-20 pick + meh prospect ?

 

A high 2nd and a Podkolzin level prospect ? 

 

A RHD roster player + 2nd ?

 

I'm just asking. I have no idea what ppl think the minimum returns have to be. 

 

 

Is our owner allowing a Bo trade to return futures, or is he insisting that any return be to help us now? 

[IBatch]

15 hours ago, Lumme21 said:

Are you still enamored with the OEL from the 2015/2016 season? Arizona wanted to move him because he was inefficient then already. OEL has been terrible this year, and is already woefully inefficient. That trade was terrible, but yet I would say the majority of people went along with the narrative that it was needed to shed the dead weight of Beagle, Roussel, and Loui. Those contracts only had 1 year remaining. So short sighted.

Most people?  Nobody had a trade proposal up like that before it happened.  Most people, myself included, didn't think it would be possible.   OEL would be fine at 5.5 or so through the duration of his current deal.   Given his assignments.    Actually he'd be good not just decent.    So we wasted 1.75ish per year.   Caps going up.   Most people didn't think JB could dump all that cap, for that sort of price.    Definitely did better then 6.1 for a first done pre-covid.  And it wasn't a late first either.    That deal would have been crucified as impossible ... 12 million out ... that's 2 firsts.   Garland ... ARI fans were freaking out he could be part of that deal.   And he was.    The retention could have been a little better for sure.   But he's not the only guy on the team not pulling his cap weight - and RFAs are the ones that should give you the best ROI... but we aren't really getting that are we.  Other then QHs.   And that's on the scoreboard.   Schenn ... he's playing like a 4-5 million dollar vet.   Team should be showering him with free dinners etc. 

 

Demko isn't doing it.   Neither is EP really.   Not yet anyways.  Brock hasn't scored a goal.   Only Horvat and Schenn ... and even Miller is getting his points which is what he's getting paid to do.   And on that ... 5.35ish 2/2 RFA/UFA - that's an example of a good contract.   RFAs are now getting paid like UFAs almost,  and that is also screwing things up royally for us and other teams. 

 

Crosby just said he's never seen a league like todays that is so even.  It's the most vanilla since the vanilla era started.   Right now, the team should have won at least 3/4 of those multi goal leads but we didn't.  CAL and PIT and other teams are also struggling.   Ugh.   

 

Yes absolutely, we should have just let the cap shed.  Was all over that including trading Pearson.   But on paper - or just a trade per trade or just a signing with zero context... The OEL trade was a decent one, Pearson was a decent signing, Miller was a great trade (for us), and Myers was a decent signing as is Millers next contract.  

 

Should any of this been done?  Doesn't look like it.   And when a player is doing well, we don't want to trade them lol...when they are not - trade him lol.   Horvat is doing great.   Would you trade him, or re-sign him? 

[IBatch]

10 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Is our owner allowing a Bo trade to return futures, or is he insisting that any return be to help us now? 

Bo would get us a first, a roster player to make cap work on an expiring deal (or we retain) and a grade A prospect.   Just like what Miller should have got us, and what Giroux got.    Can't do conditional picks anymore.   So best case is probably trading Bo, and re-signing him in the summer but that rarely happens with big names anyways.  

[IBatch]

24 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

Lets talk about minimal acceptable trade returns for Horvat. What is the minimum you would go ? We have to ask this bc that's why a Miller trade didn't get done.

 

A top 10-20 pick + meh prospect ?

 

A high 2nd and a Podkolzin level prospect ? 

 

A RHD roster player + 2nd ?

 

I'm just asking. I have no idea what ppl think the minimum returns have to be. 

 

 

We could trade Horvat, flub our picks and waste his cap space.   That's worst case. 

 

Min return will be a late first, a contenders best prospect which usually isn't great and maybe another pick (3rd) with retention and a roster player back to make it work cap wise for them.

 

Best case would be a first, second, third, a grade A prospect, and a young center that has some promise, from a middling team looking to make some noise.   Feel the way Horvats played the last 40 games, if he keeps it up close or near the deadline it could get to that point.   
 

We aren't getting a Dobson.  Or Schneider.  Just like last year with NYR. 

[Lumme21]

Not to burst the balloon of anyone that wanted to 'celebrate' a 5-4 over Buffalo, but this game is a prime example of why if Management doesn't trade Horvat now, it will be an opportunity lost. Horvat got a goal and 2 assists, and if he keeps playing that hot, he will propel the Canucks to the 'mushy middle' just outside the playoff race, but far enough up the standings that we won't get one of the studs we need to rebuild around. Meanwhile, his trade value won't increase any more then it is right now.

 

The time is now.