Jim Bennings legacy without the OEL trade. Grade him out of 10.

[AnthonyG]

3 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

the first one is the most important ... Pettersson+Hughes+Demko+Boeser+Miller haven't done anything yet. 

Lol head on over to Toronto bud. Clearly no faith in those players. Glad to know their careers are done and over with and never amounted to anything like the Sedins+Kesler+Burrows and Schneider

 

hmm lets see it took the Sedins 10+ years to hit 100 points…. Took Pettersson 6? Calder trophy? Miller over 80 points twice, Kesler…none? Name some players who won a Selke on a bottom team or outside the playoffs. I’ll be waiting…. For awhile. Demko vs Schneider? Who was a starter earlier in their career? Oh right Demko by a 3-4 years.

 

you guys get more and more pathetic lmao. Comparing full careers to guys almost entering their prime LOL. 
how do you side with such ridiculousness @DSVII 

[AnthonyG]

8 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Torts has two more Jack Adams trophies than either of the minor league coaches.

Been fired more times too.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

Just now, AnthonyG said:

Lol head on over to Toronto bud. Clearly no faith in those players. Glad to know their careers are done and over with and never amounted to anything like the Sedins+Kesler+Burrows and Schneider

 

hmm lets see it took the Sedins 10+ years to hit 100 points…. Took Pettersson 6? Calder trophy? Miller over 80 points twice, Kesler…none? Name some players who won a Selke on a bottom team or outside the playoffs. I’ll be waiting…. For awhile. Demko vs Schneider? Who was a starter earlier in their career? Oh right Demko by a 3-4 years.

 

you guys get more and more pathetic lmao. Comparing full careers to guys almost entering their prime LOL. 
how do you side with such ridiculousness @DSVII 

lol you just did you post that he replied to sport.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 minute ago, AnthonyG said:

Been fired more times too.

Coaches are hired to be fired.  No question he has a short-shelf life.  Again. too bad Willie & Travis weren't fired after a season.

Edited June 14, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[AnthonyG]

1 minute ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

lol you just did you post that he replied to sport.

Are you on something?

i compared what we JB drafted to what Burke drafted aka THE FUTURE CORE

elite players.

YOU compared them to not being in the HHOF. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

3 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Sorry too busy helping Jim Benning filling out his application for McDonalds.

Edited June 14, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[iinatcc]

1 minute ago, AnthonyG said:

Lol head on over to Toronto bud. Clearly no faith in those players. Glad to know their careers are done and over with and never amounted to anything like the Sedins+Kesler+Burrows and Schneider

 

hmm lets see it took the Sedins 10+ years to hit 100 points…. Took Pettersson 6? Calder trophy? Miller over 80 points twice, Kesler…none? Name some players who won a Selke on a bottom team or outside the playoffs. I’ll be waiting…. For awhile. Demko vs Schneider? Who was a starter earlier in their career? Oh right Demko by a 3-4 years.

 

you guys get more and more pathetic lmao. Comparing full careers to guys almost entering their prime LOL. 
how do you side with such ridiculousness @DSVII 

I think it was you the compared this Canucks core to the 2011 one. So you started it.

 

But I ask again what has this core done? I get that their careers aren't over yet but you are the one comparing this core with the one that one win away from winning the cup. 

 

Maybe this core does win the cup in 3 to 5 years but who knows at the point. You can base your assessment of a core based on futures. Maybe they lift the cup or maybe they will belong to the group of failed cores like the early 2010 Oilers. 

 

You bring up individual stars and awards but we're talking about a winning core. 

 

And funny you brought up the Leafs. I am pretty sure if the Canucks their core four was formed you would be singing praises due to their potential. 

[AnthonyG]

5 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Sorry too busy helping Jim Benning filling out his application for McDonalds.

Its okay I got Gillis a job at UVIC. Didnt last long, but I helped pick him up after his fall from the finals to a blue collar job

[AnthonyG]

2 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

I think it was you the compared this Canucks core to the 2011 one. So you started it.

 

But I ask again what has this core done? I get that their careers aren't over yet but you are the one comparing this core with the one that one win away from winning the cup. 

 

Maybe this core does win the cup in 3 to 5 years but who knows at the point. You can base your assessment of a core based on futures. Maybe they lift the cup or maybe they will belong to the group of failed cores like the early 2010 Oilers. 

 

You bring up individual stars and awards but we're talking about a winning core. 

 

And funny you brought up the Leafs. I am pretty sure if the Canucks their core four was formed you would be singing praises due to their potential. 

its the bloody future dude. If you cant comprehend the positivity I’m feeding you, you are as hopeless as Gillis at the draft table.

my point is we have found the major pieces and now PA and JR aka the Nonis regime have some retooling to do and thanks to JB finding the big pieces early on and many others with possibly bright looking futures coming up, JR and PA may very well just cut out the Nonis work and do the Gillis work. 
it took mainly Burke to build that 2010-11 team

Nonis got us Luongo, Edler and Schneider and I guess Raymond if you want to add him in there.

 

Comparably just based off pieces, JB has already done most of the work the Burke and Nonis did combined. We are in a great spot right now because age is still on our side for all of our main pieces, that once cap situations are figured out and cap increases come along, JR and PA could make the Gillis-esque moves that put us in a position to contend.

[AnthonyG]

13 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Sorry too busy helping Jim Benning filling out his application for McDonalds.

I guess it helps when you have an in at McDonalds. Pays to know someone who works there that can help him get a job with you. 

[iinatcc]

1 minute ago, AnthonyG said:

its the bloody future dude. If you cant comprehend the positivity I’m feeding you, you are as hopeless as Gillis at the draft table.

my point is we have found the major pieces and now PA and JR aka the Nonis regime have some retooling to do and thanks to JB finding the big pieces early on and many others with possibly bright looking futures coming up, JR and PA may very well just cut out the Nonis work and do the Gillis work. 
it took mainly Burke to build that 2010-11 team

Nonis got us Luongo, Edler and Schneider and I guess Raymond if you want to add him in there.

 

Comparably just based off pieces, JB has already done most of the work the Burke and Nonis did combined. We are in a great spot right now because age is still on our side for all of our main pieces, that once cap situations are figured out and cap increases come along, JR and PA could make the Gillis-esque moves that put us in a position to contend.

We don't gauge the team on futures at least not after 4 years. And optimism only makes sense if there's something to back it up, I say this team has used up their benefit of the doubt card. And it's now all about getting it done. 

[AnthonyG]

10 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

And funny you brought up the Leafs. I am pretty sure if the Canucks their core four was formed you would be singing praises due to their potential. 

In all honesty, I sh*t you not, I do not want TORs core 4 over ours. Look at their cap situation! Dude its horrendous, them and the coilers are in cap sh*t storm that they cant find real depth, at least not easily. EDMs clock is ticking down, ours is just beginning. Once Draisaitl is up, they are in so much trouble, same as the possible Matthews extension or he could very well walk or be traded.

 

 

PS I should have mentioned this sooner, sorry to go off track, but the best part about letting a UFA walk is cap space, so for you guys to complain about letting an overrated goalie, an injury riddled dman and an older soon to be declining winger walk, we gained cap space (1.5ish) in a flat cap environment. Coulda went and retained them all and invested in more declining years. That would have been foolish.

[AnthonyG]

1 minute ago, iinatcc said:

We don't gauge the team on futures at least not after 4 years. And optimism only makes sense if there's something to back it up, I say this team has used up their benefit of the doubt card. And it's now all about getting it done. 

Pettersson took a massive step forward yet again

Hughes has continued to build on a best ever canuck dman career

Demko showed elite level goaltending

Miller shows he is a dominant C

Hogz, Podz, Klim, Karlsson, Bains, Woo, Silovs are all showing growth as well as many others. 
We have a very bright future ahead, quit looking at everything in a negative perspective, look for the positives and you’ll see we are headed in a great direction and like all rebuilds or all young players, it just needs time, trials and tribulations to become the true elite professionals they are trending towards being.

Had it not been for the WCE what would the Sedins have been on their own? It took 2 of the best canucks ever, several years and that was in a winning and dominant environment. Its taking our now new core some time as well but they are making a much larger impact much earlier in their careers, without a “WCE” infront of them

[alt kilgore]

3 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Pettersson took a massive step forward yet again

Hughes has continued to build on a best ever canuck dman career

Demko showed elite level goaltending

Miller shows he is a dominant C

Hogz, Podz, Klim, Karlsson, Bains, Woo, Silovs are all showing growth as well as many others. 
We have a very bright future ahead, quit looking at everything in a negative perspective, look for the positives and you’ll see we are headed in a great direction and like all rebuilds or all young players, it just needs time, trials and tribulations to become the true elite professionals they are trending towards being.

Had it not been for the WCE what would the Sedins have been on their own? It took 2 of the best canucks ever, several years and that was in a winning and dominant environment. Its taking our now new core some time as well but they are making a much larger impact much earlier in their careers, without a “WCE” infront of them

 

Who was the GM, with his coach choice, when Pettersson was struggling?  Who could have kept better tabs on his preparation in the summer? 

 

Who was the GM before Hughes began to improve his defensive game to start to match his offensive game?

 

Who was the GM who was playing hardball with Ian Clarke for the last months of his contract running out, keeping fans on edge? But other than that, Demko developed good under Benning, and JR,  I'll say that for free.

 

But who was the GM who traded for Miller at the wrong time in the clubs arch?  Other than that, a great player for sure, and I'm glad we have him.

And then who actually signed Miller, over the much beloved Horvat and took the heat for that?

 

Every team has promising prospects. Some have more, and much higher rated. But we are starting to build our farm team. Moving it to Abby was a smart move.

 

Hey,  despite my sheer bafflement at your defence of Benning,  I agree with you here. Hey, if someone starts a Benning thread I'll respond. But I'm not starting one. I want to move on. We do have a very bright future. It does need time and more patience. I really think we will do much better next season. I'm giving JR and co. 3 years to see meaningful  improvement. I think they are on course. We do have to stay positive about the future. Whether it was Gillis, or Benning, or a combination of the last number of GMs failures, we are now on the road to greatness.  We all want the same thing. Go Canucks Go!

 

 

[iinatcc]

3 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Pettersson took a massive step forward yet again

Hughes has continued to build on a best ever canuck dman career

Demko showed elite level goaltending

Miller shows he is a dominant C

Hogz, Podz, Klim, Karlsson, Bains, Woo, Silovs are all showing growth as well as many others. 
We have a very bright future ahead, quit looking at everything in a negative perspective, look for the positives and you’ll see we are headed in a great direction and like all rebuilds or all young players, it just needs time, trials and tribulations to become the true elite professionals they are trending towards being.

Had it not been for the WCE what would the Sedins have been on their own? It took 2 of the best canucks ever, several years and that was in a winning and dominant environment. Its taking our now new core some time as well but they are making a much larger impact much earlier in their careers, without a “WCE” infront of them

I think realistic and tempered is a better way to describe thnigs and not negative . If we all looked at positive Cody Hodgson would have been the captain of the Canucks, Shinkaruk would have been our Patrick Kane, and Tryamkin would be an elite defender. Point is the prospects you mentioned all have to pan out before we can see them as part of the Organisation long term plans. 

 

As for the WCE helping out the Sedins. Yes you are probably right, but that's the card presented to the Sedins at the time. Your argument before is stating injuries or goaltending the reason why this core hasn't done much but we can't work with "IF's" and "Buts" the organization has to work with they have. Every team runs to adversity, Golden Knights lost their #1 goalie before the season strated and Florida had a ton of injuriös this year.

 

We call the Leafs chokers but they were eliminated by teams that make it to the finals no one is saying "if only Toronto didn't have to face such tough teams in the 1st round", the fact is most see them as playoff underperformers.  

 

 

[AnthonyG]

6 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

I think realistic and tempered is a better way to describe thnigs and not negative . If we all looked at positive Cody Hodgson would have been the captain of the Canucks, Shinkaruk would have been our Patrick Kane, and Tryamkin would be an elite defender. Point is the prospects you mentioned all have to pan out before we can see them as part of the Organisation long term plans. 

 

As for the WCE helping out the Sedins. Yes you are probably right, but that's the card presented to the Sedins at the time. Your argument before is stating injuries or goaltending the reason why this core hasn't done much but we can't work with "IF's" and "Buts" the organization has to work with they have. Every team runs to adversity, Golden Knights lost their #1 goalie before the season strated and Florida had a ton of injuriös this year

 

Shinkaruk and Hodgson showed no signs of elite talent. Pettersson, Hughes, Boeser, Demko all showed instant impact on weak rosters. 
 

Had Aidin Hill played like a 3rd string, which he is, the Knights would have never made it anywhere. Demko did not play like a starter and Martin played far worse than a 3rd string, Delia wasnt much better. 
 

If you look at all the good teams in the league, their goaltending played up to or well above their level. Goaltending is a critical position that cant have extended periods of poor play.

 

Hill’s GSAA in 16gp was 13.65 in all situations. That is insane. Had he played the playoff avg it would have been less than 2GSAA

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Would you lump Bourdon into the same category as Juolevi? Unforeseeable injuries/tragedies that derailed/ended careers.

 

Woulda been nice to not have to try and rebuild through 2 expansion drafts and end up losing Lind, then waivers cost him Gadjovich.

 

Lack of picks are also due to lack of valuable trade chips.

 

 

Bourdon?  Good grief no.   That's a bad take.   But if we want to talk about Bourdon, he actually played some games pretty early on.  And looked like he for sure was going to stick.  Edler beat him out of camp though.    OJ had some injuries - Draft plus TWO.   But also, his aversion to using the gym was all 100% him.   The Finnish league is nothing like the AHL or the NHL. 

[IBatch]

8 hours ago, Timråfan said:

Ppppppleaasse stop judging the GM as a scout.

Almost everyone says it’s only top ten OA the GM gets in on it.

After that it’s the scouts because Benning doesn’t have the time to watch every player and be a GM at the same time.

 

Unless Benning skipped a lit of the GM work and therefor acted like a scout.

Is that what you’re implying? 
 

What we see now is that the Gillis move to start up the AHL franchise again should have been a masterstroke with another GM than Benning and other coaches than the ones at Utica and Green.

That is something a GM does. Start up an AHL franchise then  others take it further.

 

I didn't.  He was all over the place.   Some of it I can forgive.  Linden and JB both went with the "re-tool" strategy.   It worked one year, finished 7th overall.   And truly didn't have much choice given the entire team was claused up even support players and bottom pairing D's.  

 

Other stuff not at all.   People that think ANY GM, was going to quickly put us back on top is completely out to lunch.   Quick in this league is less than 6-7 years.   After been a top team for 14 years - what do people expect?   How's Detroit doing anyways? 

 

Think about this for a minute.  Nonis's first draft ALL the way to Horvat, MG last ... zip.  Nadda.    We had such a huge gap in talent, just Tanev and Edler... then nothing.   Expect for an 18 year old Horvat.   That's a decade gap almost.  And people wonder why he traded seconds to find something, anything , inbetween.  

 

Where he failed was not calling it a rebuild when it was so freaking obvious we needed one, and not committing to it 100% when we finally got there.   More than anything.   Anyone thinking WD and Green should do much better also need to give their heads a shake. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by IBatch

[AnthonyG]

59 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Bourdon?  Good grief no.   That's a bad take.   But if we want to talk about Bourdon, he actually played some games pretty early on.  And looked like he for sure was going to stick.  Edler beat him out of camp though.    OJ had some injuries - Draft plus TWO.   But also, his aversion to using the gym was all 100% him.   The Finnish league is nothing like the AHL or the NHL. 

essentially they were both unforeseeable and both were health related and impacted their careers/life. OJ had injuries in his draft +2 year, Bourdon passed away in his draft +3

OJ also looked good in his stint with the Canucks. 
OJ ultimately did not pan out due to injury. But that doesnt mean he isnt able to come back and make Anaheims roster. His IQ, skill and first pass are all still there, its just matter of health and overcoming the surgeries and rehabbing.

 

[DSVII]

On 6/13/2023 at 11:53 AM, AnthonyG said:

Yea and Salo, Jovanoski, Kesler, Burrows, Bieksa, Hansen, Demitra, Mitchell, Malhotra saw seasons under 60, hell a handful of them saw seasons under 20 games.

 

And guess what? As an aggregate, the man games lost and % of cap space on IR under Celebrini's tenure exceeded Burnie. Again, it's not blaming him for hockey being violent, but by the numbers, the team spiked way above the league average in these categories.

 

Quote

I’ve said many times and I’ve had this conversation previously with you. 
Gillis did infact run this organization into the ground in an attempt to go all in. I do not blame him for what he did, I supported it and I understood the consequences, something you and countless others do not seem to grasp.

The Canucks had a first rate front office when Gillis left, sleep doctors, training programs, an analytics department, a farm team infrastructure, capologist etc...Those still remained even after the Torts year, Benning systematically took these apart while the rest of the league adopted these innovations.

 

I understood the consequences too, and was hoping Benning would too, but he explicitly said this was a situation he could turn around quickly with confidence. So you have to hold him accountable for that. It's something you haven't grasped.

 

https://nhl.nbcsports.com/2014/05/23/canucks-a-team-we-can-turn-around-in-a-hurry-says-new-gm-benning/

 

Quote

The sh*thole he left behind made JBs job 10x harder. That takes soooooo much longer to bounce back from as an organization.

Hard Disagree. Benning had the picks, the cap space, and the infrastracture to pivot easily to a retool and rebuild effectively had he chosen so. The team he inherited scored over 100+ points the following season. We've seen teams go all in on cup runs and restock the cupboards in the same amount of time Benning tried to tread water in a Pacific division that was mostly rebuilding. 

 

10x harder? That is hyperbole.

 

Also, i'll reiterate again.

 

Every GM had to deal with Covid (by the time Nucks were infected, they had a <10% chance of making it)

Every GM had to deal with flat salary cap

Every GM had to deal with the expansion draft

 

In fact, the flat cap is one of the reasons why we can laugh at the Maple Leafs since they couldn't fully load up for their playoff runs with their overpaid core, but even then they've accomplished more than us. In the same timeframe, they drafted a core, and competed with a playoff spot for 6 consecutive years since Benning started. Averaging 106 points.

 

If Benning had those results, 110% guaranteed you'd be singing more praises for him. 

 

Quote

But but draft capital??? You always talk about draft capital. “Picks are better than no picks”

Benning found guys beyond 20. Whats Gillis’s excuse? Couldnt he develop anyone?? What was wrong with development from 2005-2013?

"Guy", singular. What's the point of drafting a 40 goal scorer in McCann if you trade him for a high-risk/low-reward play in Gudbranson? Drafting is far from the most important function of a GM.

 

What was wrong, as I had explained many times to you, was that Gillis had no control of the farm team since the Jets took over the Moose in 2011. We were affiliated with the Chicago Wolves and they had full control of our prospect deployment, so we were unable to even get them to put our guys in top positions to succeed.  For a guy clamoring about the importance of development you are sure are ungrateful for the fact that GMMG set up the Utica Comets for Benning.

 

 

 

Quote

Just in the 20’s

2008 

22nd - Eberle

27th - Carlson

(Pssst Hodgson 10th, Karlsson 15th. Yikes)

 

2009

22nd - Schroeder 

24th - M. Johansson

26th - Palmieri

 

2010 

21st - Sheahan

24th - K. Hayes

26th - Kuznetsov

28th - Coyle

30th - Nelson

2011

20th - Murphy

26th - Danault

27th - Namestnikov

29th - Jensen

30th - Rakell

 

2012

20th - Laughton

22nd - Maata

23rd - Matheson

26th - Gaunce
28th - Skjei

30th - Pearson

- 1 of 7 GMs to not find NHL talent in the 1st round. 23/30 picks played over 200 games, mostly over 400.

 

2013

20th - Mantha

23rd - Burakovsky

24th - Shinkaruk

26th - Theodore

29th - Dickinson - lol longer career than almost every 1st round MG selected

30th - Hartman

 

You obviously don't even get the concept of draft capital, and are throwing it around like you do.

 

Yes, stars can be found in the 20s and potentially 30s. The existence of Brock Boeser at 23rd, just because he outperformed someone drafted at say 5th. Doesn't make a 23rd pick more draft capital than a 5th in a draft.

 

You're basically telling me. "See? This guy hit on a 20% ticket, so Gillis should be able to match what Benning did with a 95% ticket!"

 

 

Quote

You act like no other GM who was competing or contending, couldnt find talent or develop players. Looks to me like Washington did quite well. So did Anaheim. 
 

Compared to his peers, he really sucked at drafting.  Those are just first round picks in the 20s… what about everything beyond that? Nada.

Again, i'm not even claiming that the drafting wasn't sub par under Gillis, but there are reasons for this. Especially in the development department with the Chicago Wolves. I would flip that around and tell you that in 8 years, with a fully set up farm system and higher quantity and value of picks than GMMG, having only 1 Utica graduation in Demko is an uglier result than the shitty Gillis drafting.

 

Quote

Like I’ve argued countless times with you, its about development.

 

It is about development.  And Benning has done squat considering he was set up for success better than GMMG was with the Chicago Wolves. He never fully utilized the Farm team to set up his high end prospects for success and rushed them. 

 

Who did Benning graduate from Utica outside of the 1st round besides Demko?

 

Jake

 

Hoglander

 

McCann

 

 

Quote

But here you are going back on your draft capital stance and saying that the chance of those mid-late 20s picks are such a small chance of panning out that it doesnt matter about selling them off. Pick a side and stick to it, you continue moving the goal posts again and again to suit YOUR argument when you see fit.

The 20th place pick argument was never about selling them off (those were your own words), but that when you have a GM picking constantly in the 20s, you don't expect them to walk away from the draft with the same amount of talent as a GM picking constantly in the top 10s.

 

And just because Brock Boeser exists does not change this, because it is pure mathematics. Because you are using the fact that players like Boeser exist in the 20s that there is no excuse for Gillis to not succeed at drafting at that range.

 

Draft capital only exists for you as a phrase to throw around whenever you think you have a shot at someone. You truly don't understand it. Because I do recall in a past conversation that you said draft position is a weak argument to explain why Gillis didn't produce as many NHLers as Benning.

 

Quote

You always preach capital and I preach development, now capital means nothing?? What about development??? Why was MG unable to successfully develop any real talent?? He had no reasons to rush anyone, he had no need to throw anyone into the fire. He ha alllll the time in the world to develop prospects between the guys who Nonis selected and Gillis selected. Almost nothing came of it. Why was development not addressed???? This is what great organizations do and have continued to do. JB had to fill a roster and a bloody farm, you think its fair to knock his prospect pool when Gillis’s picks were also part of that pool? Gillis left no imprint anywhere other than going all in and “almost” winning.

See: Chicago Wolves. If Benning had the same hardship you would be excusing him just as you are for the Covid/Flat cap. But you see, unlike those circumstances, this one was unique to Gillis because it was to facilitate the Jets. But guess what, he got it solved. 

 

All the time in the world? He was busy trying to get a cup, which you fully support by the way. So why are you not more understanding of the fact that despite all those obstacles, he got the infrastructure set up for Benning?

 

Gillis left an imprint on the organization and culture of the team, the programs and infrastructure he set up in the front office with the vision of the team as a fast paced team that punished you on the PP.

 

The standards died really when the Sedins and Tanev/Edler left. Benning did nothing to supplant that culture, he let it run to the ground (in your own phrase)

 

"almost winning" by the way, is a stratosphere above whatever Benning achieved. Again you move the goalposts to suit Benning. 

 

Quote

I see plenty of other winning teams with worse draft positions doing far better than Gillis did. 

Give me an example, I've given you so many others.

 

Define winning too. Because to you winning to achieve 15th place in 2020 is better than Game 7 in 2011

 

Quote

I am taking alllll of that into account. Are you? He left nothing behind. He left an aged out washed up roster and some halfand Benning had to start from below ground zero. How are you not taking any of that into account? How do you expect Benning to succeed so quickly with what prospects? Who from Nonis and Gillis was going to take over for the twins? No one. Who was going to help transition into the new era or at least be a place holder to allow for either sheltered NHL development or AHL development.

The whole point was Gillis hung onto 2011 far too long, his changes at the 2012 deadline? Nothing significant at all. Got smoked in the 1st round. 
 

“I felt from Day 1 that it’s stale. That’s not their fault. This is a group that has been together for a long time. It’s stale. It needs youth. It needs a change. I felt that from Day 1. We’re not in 2011. We have to stop talking about 2011. The team needs to be retooled. It’s a young man’s game.” – John Tortorella

The roster still competed for playoffs the next year. Benning did not start from ground zero, he started from 100 points. Then he ran the team into the ground rather than rebuild and trade for prospects.

 

I seem to recall his initial UFA signings were his best, Vrbata, Miller. 

 

Also, when you make it to game 7 of the stanely cup finals, and your core is still intact, you run it back. Just ask Tampa Bay what they did after 2015 or the Capitals after all those years.

 

Again, why are you applying perfect hindsight to all of Gillis' actions? And not look at the circumstances around them.

 

Benning meanwhile, you are applying the perfect scenario to justify his shortcomings (Petey/Hughes/Demko will one day be on the level of the WCE and Sedins)

 

Quote

2013-14 those are the vibes from the head coach day 1. Gillis did what he had to, to go all in, in 2011. Which when you have disposable assets, its not difficult. He held onto that “almost” for another season, made no changes at the 2012 deadline other than Hodgson for Kassian. Then he goes and holds on the following season, another 1st round exit. The year after that 23rd overall, a sign of things to come.

 

If he was at all smart he would have retooled. But he never let go of 2010-11. Just go look at those rosters between 2010-2013, how much change do you see?

Garrison, Booth, Kassian. Traded Erhoffs rights for a 4th. Erhoff was a HUGE factor in our 2010-11 season/run, 50pts and all we got was a 4th??? 3 years after a cup appearance, the Jennings tandem is gone.

You do realize that Torts was no Gillis' hire right? Gillis wanted to rebuild in 2013, he wanted to let go. The only person who didn't was Aqua.

 

This whole section is a tangent. What Gillis did try a semi retool up till 2013, he was just constrained by the effects of the cap crunch, which I understand but I was also running out of patience and wanted a rebuild. To his credit, he wanted to rebuild in 2013 after the SJ sweep.

 

Guess what though, Benning also had disposable assets in 2015 after seeing the team fail in the 2015 run. He just chose to not trade them as well. Where is your outrage on this if Gillis made the same mistake in 2013?

 

You are applying different standards to both. Goalposts I can understand because I know from your vantage point, Benning is working with a 10x handicap, but as you can see, I don't agree at all. He was very well set up.

 

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Fired before he could do anything?

Luongo?

Schneider?

Hodgson?

Samuelsson?

Erhoff?

no prospects?

his biggest problem is HE NEVER DID ANYTHING AFTER 2010-11, what did he do to improve the team? The moves he did make were awful. His drafting and development was horrendous. Lmfao and you wanted THAT GUY, to lead a rebuild??? Buddy, come on. That would be the worst rebuild ever.

 

Gee I wonder why they hired a guy with a very highly respected scouting background……. Could it be, maybe, it was to help with a rebuild??????? It wasnt a full on rebuild, it was a stealth rebuild and his first 5 years indicate that. They would not mention the “R” word because that would

1) Be a kick in the balls to the twins

2) hurt revenue 

Out of respect for the Sedins they didnt crush their hopes of a cup, JB built through free agency and kept his picks. Did his best to add picks with the very few trade chips he had.

I mean, as a fan who consumes hockey, I think you understand that a rebuild takes more than one season of work. And up until 2013, he was going for it under express directive from ownership.

 

He tried to improve the team, those moves didn't work out. He recognized that and wanted a rebuild. We will never know how good Gillis was at rebuilding, i personally wanted to see what he would do with one more year, but what we do know is already better than what we got (Larkin > Virtanen). Whose to say. But you are slagging him on something he might have done, not something he has.

 

HAHA, the twins are grownups, they said themselves they'd be happy to mentor kids for a rebuild.

 

I see you subscribe to the stealth rebuild. And this is where draft capital comes in.

 

this was not a rebuild, in any sense of the word.

 

A rebuild stocks up picks

A rebuild stocks up on higher draft position picks

 

This is a chart based on the HockeyDB drafts of all the teams that finished below the Canucks in those 'rebuilding' years.

 

Aside from being capped out, Benning had fewer picks going into the draft than any rebuilding team around him for most years.

 

Based on these draft values: https://soundofhockey.com/2022/06/06/examining-the-value-of-nhl-draft-picks/

 

For reference, the cost of Hronek (17th + 43rd) equates to about 242 points on the weighted chart.

 

This was never a rebuild, it was a failed franken tool.

 

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vehemently disagree?

so he sells off 2 #1 goalies

leaves JB with 2 unproven goalies. 
the twins were unmovable

Edler refused to waive

Kesler held the keys to his own destination

Tanev was still young and like you claimed “still a prospect”

Burrows was signed to a 4x4.5mil deal and was massively underperforming, good luck with that one, thanks Gillis

Hansen was nothing spectacular and got us what he did, then JB turned a bratty Dahlen into a promising Karlsson

Garrison had trade protection and was an anchor. 
 

He had 3 years to leave something behind after 2010-11, he left jack sh*t. He didnt have a chance to?? Why not? Did he “ run out of time”? 

You think he left him valuable trade chips? Give your head a shake.

JB did sign Miller (which was a fine add) and had Marky and Lack which made playoffs.

Twins should not be moved, they were an important part of the team and culture.

 

The entire Pacific was rebuilding

Kesler had two destinations, and JB still got a 1st and two roster players from him (personally i wanted Shea Theodore from Anahei, he was available)

Garrison was traded away, as was Burrows and Hansen because they still had value to the roster

 

And not to mention 30-35% of the cap space to play with after those trades.

 

The fact we made playoffs in 2015 showed there was something still there. Again, I have a hard time believing you saying you are objectively evaluating anything that Benning didn't touch.

 

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Umm hello??? My point was Salo was here when Berstein was. He missed how many games?? Lol you take no accountability of Salo’s injury history or MANY other Canucks who played under 50 games under Bernstein.
Nice deflection Pavelski.

The accountability comes from the fact that even when including Salos injuries and games lost, the team as a whole was still less injured under Burnie's stewardship than it was under Celebrini. You are willfully ignorant of the hard line numbers (# of man games lost / year) that don't support you.

 

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what great work by Gillis to recreate the Boston model, didnt even change the roster.

Garrison, Booth and Kassian 

 

Again you can thank Aqua.

 

Seriously, my score of 4/10 was because I was trying to be charitable to the fact Aqualini tied Benning to a flawed strategy. If you aren't willing to even be objective enough to see that 2013 onwards Gillis was forced by management to go for it with Torts and the like, then Benning is a 2/10 GM for me. And Jake Virtanen can go back to being 100% Benning's responsibility.

 

And after the remarks that came out from Trevor today, and Benning throwing him under the bus, a 2/10 he is.

 

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/longer-vision-linden-canucks-management

 

How you can support a guy that's done so much harm to this organization is beyond me.

 

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Oh but Gillis’s contracts didnt suck and could be moved??? Did YOU ever consider that??? Doesnt seem like it at all.

 

My whole point was without any changes made, once our star players began playing like star players, we were the hottest team in the league down the final 40-50 game stretch. Imagine if they showed up to play on time? Imagine if Petey wasnt pointless in 24 of the first 44 games? Or if Demko played like Vasilevskiy, Shesterkin etc do from the start of the season. 
You look past the details and look at the results and think the worst. Maybe educate yourself on the positives. 

But they were moved or were moveable. Garrison/Kesler/Burrows/Hansen/Hamhuis

 

Unfortunately I don't deal in fantasies. I mean, we imagined the Boudreau bump would last to this year too.

 

again, you're slagging on Gillis on what he may have done in a rebuild. And now you're asking me to praise Benning because of what this core may have done under sunny circumstances? Real world doesn't work like that. We need to see consistent results.

 

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I threw draft capital in there because its your favourite…. You’re losing an argument on your own bloody ideology that draft capital>development. Shall I dare pull up our previous debates? 29th->30th isnt much movement??? More 29th and 30th overall picks played more games and produced more than all of Gillis’s picks period. Draft capital bud.

Except that was never my ideology. Heck, ideology? This isn't politics, this is just hockey.

Straw Man.

 

Please pull up that debate. Pull up where I said development doesn't matter. I'm curious where you got that idea.

 

Even if you do pull up something where my words can be misconstrued, i'm telling you now that's not what I mean. You need both in tandem to rebuild, and Benning failed on both fronts. 

 

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He’s responsible sure, but when his draft picks have no competition at camp, kinda hard to send them down and say “you didnt earn it”

 

How many players did Gillis assign to the AHL that never succeeded?? What happened bro? Only JB was responsible for developing players?

 

What happened the following season? He sent JV to the minors, what happened the after that? JV made the team again and he continually built on each and every season. While being given less than Sounds to me like that was progress and positive on his future until Green chose to keep his TOI under 15mins each season mostly under 13 minutes

2015-16 11:34TOI 55gp 6g 7a - 55.2%oZS

2016-17 10:09TOI 10gp 0g 1a - 49.3%oZS

2017-18 11:59TOI 75gp 10g 10a - 45.2%oZS

2018-19 14:49TOI 70gp 15g 10a - 49.1%oZS

2019-20 13:05TOI 69gp 18g 18a - 55.1%oZS

2020-21 12:15TOI 38gp 5g 0a - 39.6%oZS

 

ummmm WHAT???? Continues to produce, gets less TOI and more dZS. 
 

Its hysterical how many times you continue to move the goal posts. 

For a guy who claims to understand development, it's not just about competition in camp, it's about whether they have the habits and standards required to succeed at the NHL level, and even if you're the number 1 guy at camp, you aren't gifted a spot because of that.

 

oZS is meaningless unless you also back it up with quality of competition, you have to determine whether or not Jake is being sheltered or driving play himself. I'd also take a look at his linemates and production with and away from top stars. 

 

You and I have a very different definition of built on. I think similar to Hogs, Jake got as far as he could without the foundation and structrual habits playing in the AHL for a long time can get for you. Luckily, Hogs is on that right path.

 

I've repeated the Utica issue enough. Benning should be thankful he inherited that farm team when he started, but he just never fully utilized it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by DSVII