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HSBC exposed: Drug money banking, terror dealings


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#1 key2thecup

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:15 PM

lol @ $1 Billion slap-on-the-wrist



HSBC exposed: Drug money banking, terror dealings

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International banking giant HSBC may have financed terrorist groups and funneled Mexican drug money into the US economy through its lax policies, a damning Senate report reveals. The bank’s bosses have apologized for the misconduct.

David Bagley, HSBC’s Head of Group Compliance, admitted during a Senate subcommittee hearing that the company had made a number of lapses, adding that he planned to resign.
I recognize that there have been some significant areas of failure,” Bagley told the US Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigation. I have said before and I will say again: despite the best efforts and intentions of many dedicated professionals, HSBC has fallen short of our own expectations and the expectations of our regulators.”

Irene Dorner, CEO and President of the bank's American operation (HBUS), told the panel that HSBC deeply regrets the lapses in oversight, apologizing for the company's mistakes.

Senator Carl Levin, the chairman of the subcommittee, gave details of one such intricate scheme to launder cash between 2006 and 2009.

Because our tough AML (anti-money laundering) laws in the United States have made it hard for drug cartels to find a US bank willing to accept huge unexplained deposits of cash, they now smuggle US dollars across the border into Mexico and look for a Mexican bank, or ‘casa de cambio’ to take the cash.,” Levin noted. Some of those casas de cambio had accounts at HB Mexico, which, in turn, took all the physical dollars that it got, transported them by armored car or aircraft back across the border to HBUS for deposit in its US Banknotes account, completing the laundering cycle.

The Senator welcomed HSBC’s apologies, but said it also had to be held accountable. He called on the bank to consider shutting down its Mexican affiliate, as well as other banks suspected of providing funding for terrorists.

Earlier, Levin said the culture at HSBC was pervasively polluted for a long time.

The findings are the results of a year-long Senate probe into HSBC’s activities, highlighting systemic negligence throughout the bank’s international structure. The probe was published in a 340-page report in Washington on Tuesday.
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Financing terror and flouting the rules

HSBC’s activities in Saudi Arabia were brought into question in the report, specifically referencing banking with Al Rajhi Bank. The investigation claims the Saudi bank has links to financing terrorism based on evidence gathered after the September 11 attacks.

Information collated by investigators suggests one of Al Rajhi’s founders was an “early financial benefactor of al-Qaeda.”

HSBC forbade its affiliates from doing business with the Saudi bank in 2005, but this policy was overturned only a few months later when the banks resumed dealings.
In addition, the report cites dealings with two Bangladeshi banks thought to have links with terrorist organizations.

"From an oversight perspective, the failure of accountability here is dramatic," Senator Levin commented.

The probe also details how the bank bypassed US safeguards that protect against transactions potentially involving terrorists, drug lords, and rogue regimes. The investigations committee alludes to almost 25,000 transactions to Iran amounting to over $19 billion conducted through the bank's US office over a period of seven years. The bank did not disclose that the funds were being sent to Iran.
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Narco-banking

The reports cities HSBC’s activities in Mexico, highlighting the fact that the country was treated as a long-risk client despite being a known hub for drug trafficking and money laundering.
It gives reference to the banking conglomerate’s Mexican affiliate transporting a total of $7 billion in hard cash to HBUS from 2007 to 2008. The sheer quantity of capital transferred raised concerns that some of it came from illegal drugs sales in the US.

The report also implicates the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC), a US financial regulator, for failing to regulate HSBC’s activities.

The OCC reported multiple failings on the part of HSBC in 2010 to implement anti-money laundering measures, namely its failure to monitor $60 trillion in bank transfers and 17,000 account alerts detailing suspicious activity.

The Senate report lays the blame for HSBC’s negligence over the past six years partly at the feet of the OCC for its lack of action in spite of consistent evidence of the banks money laundering issues.
"We have learned a great deal working with the subcommittee on this case history and also working with US regulatory authorities, and recognize that our controls could and should have been stronger and more effective in order to spot and deal with unacceptable behavior,” HSBC said in a statement. The bank also emphasize that they had already taken “concrete steps” to address the issues including drastic changes to “strengthen compliance, risk management and culture."

The new report comes after the UK’s largest bank revealed it would have to pay a $1 billion fine to US authorities for money laundering offenses committed between 2004 and 2010.

http://www.rt.com/ne...ate-report-344/



HSBC laundered billions of dollars for Mexican drug cartels, Senate investigation finds

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HSBC released a statement saying its executives will offer a formal apology at the Senate hearing.

WASHINGTON—Lax controls at Europe’s largest bank, HSBC, allowed Mexican drug cartels to launder billions of dollars through its U.S. operations, a Senate investigation has found.

The extensive report on London-based HSBC Holdings PLC by the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations also says U.S. regulators knew the bank had a poor system to detect problems but failed to take action.

HSBC executives brushed off complaints from other bank employees, so that the problems persisted for eight years, the report says.

In addition, some HSBC bank affiliates skirted U.S. government bans against financial transactions with Iran and other countries, according to the report. And HSBC’s U.S. division provided money and banking services to some banks in Saudi Arabia and Bangladesh believed to have helped fund Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups, the report said.

The subcommittee released the report Monday ahead of a Tuesday hearing on the topic. HSBC released a statement saying its executives will offer a formal apology at the hearing.
“We will apologize, acknowledge these mistakes, answer for our actions and give our absolute commitment to fixing what went wrong,” the statement said.
The U.S. Justice Department said it is conducting a criminal investigation into HSBC’s operations but declined to confirm that the bank is in settlement talks.

HSBC’s net income last year was $16.8 billion. It operates in about 80 countries around the world. Its U.S. division is among the top 10 banks operating in the United States. It has assets of roughly $210 billion in its U.S. operations.
Money laundering takes profits from the trafficking of drugs, arms or other illicit activities and passes them through bank accounts to disguise the illegal activity.

The bank used its U.S. operation as a “gateway” into the U.S. financial system for other HSBC affiliates, Sen. Carl Levin, the subcommittee’s chairman, told reporters Monday. Because of lax controls against money laundering, HSBC Bank USA “exposed the United States to Mexican drug money” and other suspicious funds, Levin said.

The report says the drug cartels laundered money through the bank’s U.S. division from 2002 through 2009.
“In an age of international terrorism, drug violence in our streets and on our borders, and organized crime, stopping illicit money flows that support those atrocities is a national security imperative,” Levin said Monday.

The bank said in its statement that it changed its senior management last year and has made changes to strengthen its compliance with rules to prevent money laundering.
“We ... recognize that our controls could and should have been stronger and more effective in order to spot and deal with unacceptable behaviour,” the statement said.
Levin also blasted the federal agency supervising the bank’s U.S. operations, the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency. He said the agency “tolerated” HSBC’s weak controls against money laundering for years.

Thomas Curry, who heads the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, also will testify at Tuesday’s hearing.
Compliance with anti-money laundering laws “is crucial to our nation’s efforts to combat criminal activity and terrorism,” Curry said in a statement. He said the agency expects banks to have adequate programs in place to comply with the laws.

The Wall Street Journal reported Monday that HSBC and the Justice Department have been in settlement talks and an accord could be struck within weeks.
Justice Department spokeswoman Alisa Finelli acknowledged that an investigation is under way but declined to comment on possible settlement discussions or a deal.

http://www.thestar.c...stigation-finds


Edited by key2thecup, 19 July 2012 - 09:19 PM.

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#2 Anti-Bettman

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:34 PM

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#3 Drybone

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:55 PM

Good read. Thanks for posting.
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#4 stexx

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:01 PM

wow, shocking thanks for posting.
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#5 Watermelons

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:17 PM

On a side note, too bad the $1 billion fine can only pay off 0.00714% of the US national debt....
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#6 Vapourstreak

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:24 PM

On a side note, too bad the $1 billion fine can only pay off 0.00714% of the US national debt....

Jesus everything's messed up.
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#7 nucklehead

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:28 PM

The investigation claims the Saudi bank has links to financing terrorism based on evidence gathered after the September 11 attacks

So the next logical step was to invade Iraq? It's all coming clearer now.
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#8 key2thecup

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:33 PM

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The investigation claims the Saudi bank has links to financing terrorism based on evidence gathered after the September 11 attacks


So the next logical step was to invade Iraq? It's all coming clearer now.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpP7b2lUxVE

Edited by key2thecup, 19 July 2012 - 10:34 PM.

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#9 key2thecup

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:45 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvtmofE85IU


'Invisible' minister who ran HSBC dodges questions over scandal

Lord Green urged to explain how much he knew about shamed bank's money laundering

Britain's Trade Minister, Lord Green, is under mounting pressure to reveal what he knew about the money laundering scandal at HSBC when he was the bank's chief executive and chairman.

Lord Green was branded "the invisible man" yesterday as the bank was also implicated in the interest rate fixing scandal which has rocked the City of London. Labour said Lord Green should make an urgent statement in the House of Lords after evidence emerged in a US Senate inquiry that he was told in 2005 about the money laundering affair.

Labour seized on an email sent to Lord Green by David Bagley, HSBC's chief compliance officer, who resigned this week over allegations that the bank inadvertently allowed the laundering of drug and terrorist money.

Ed Miliband, the Labour leader, said people were appalled by the "shocking" allegations. "I think the very least he needs to do is come and answer questions about it," he said.
HSBC and Lord Green's problems were compounded after it emerged that the bank is one of four under scrutiny as watchdogs probe a ring of traders who conspired to fix Euribor interest rates, based on what eurozone banks are paying to borrow from each other.

Yesterday Philippe Moryoussef was named as the trader at the centre of a ring while working for Barclays which involved four other banks, including HSBC. They are said to have conspired to fix Euribor rates to boost their trading books, though these allegations have not been substantiated. The other banks were Deutsche Bank, Crédit Agricole and Société Gé*érale, but the final two claim that no wrongdoing has been found at their banks – piling more pressure on HSBC.

A former trader at Crédit Agricole was suspended from trading by his current employer, Lombard Odier, pending investigation into Euribor allegations, the Swiss bank said.
News that HSBC has been implicated in that affair will raise more questions about the tenure of Lord Green, who had overseen HSBC investment bank, as the head of the business. Although the Commons is in recess, the Lords is sitting until Wednesday and Labour argues that the Trade Minister has a duty to appear before then.

"He is the invisible man," a Labour source said. "His submarine strategy of staying below the surface won't work." Last night Lord Green was spotted in the House of Lords, where he is believed to have met with Lord Strathclyde, the Tory Leader of the House.

Mr Bagley told Lord Green, then HBSC chief executive, in January 2005 that "senior persons within the compliance function fabricated records of certain anti-money laundering meetings".
In 2008, as the bank's executive chairman, he was warned that the Mexican authorities had unearthed evidence of money laundering that "may imply criminal responsibility of HSBC".
The Senate report makes no allegation of wrongdoing by Lord Green.

The minister is set to play a key role in the drive to use the Olympics to seal lucrative trade contracts for Britain.

Profile: The banker who balances God and Mammon

Lord Green is not your everyday banker. He couldn't be further from the profession's image of immoral, bonus-fuelled money-grubbers.

Unfailingly courteous, cerebral and deeply religious, the tall and bone-thin peer sometimes seemed like one of the better sorts of civil servant when he was running the world's local bank. Which is what he was for a number of years (at the Ministry of Overseas Development) having first spent a year working in a hostel for alcoholics where he met his wife, Joy. From there, he joined McKinsey, the management consultancy, where he spent five years and earned a passport into the fast track of finance. He joined HSBC in 1982 and was on the board within 16 years with responsibility for investment banking. He became chief executive in 2003, and, three years later, executive chairman.
Yet the contradictions presented by his faith – he is an ordained minister – and his career never left him.

He found the time to pen two books – Serving God, Serving Mammon, reconciling his career with this faith, and Good Value: Choosing a Better Life in Business. Perhaps some of his colleagues should have read them, then the bank's issues may not have arisen.

http://www.independe...al-7960150.html




HSBC Executive Resigns at Senate Money Laundering Hearing

HSBC Holdings Plc (HSBA)’s head of group compliance, David Bagley, told a Senate hearing he will step down amid charges the bank gave terrorists, drug cartels and criminals access to the U.S. financial system by failing to guard against money laundering.
Bagley was among at least six HSBC executives who testified before the Senate’s Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations today after the panel released a 335-page report describing a decade of compliance failures by Europe’s biggest bank. London- based HSBC enabled drug lords to launder money in Mexico, did business with firms linked to terrorism and concealed transactions that bypassed U.S. sanctions against Iran, Senate investigators said in the report.
“As I have thought about the structural transformation of the bank’s compliance function, I recommended to the group that now is the appropriate time for me and for the bank for someone new to serve as the head of group compliance,” Bagley said. “I have agreed to work with the bank’s senior management towards an orderly transition of this important role.” ....

http://www.businessw...els-probe-shows


Edited by key2thecup, 19 July 2012 - 10:46 PM.

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#10 Rypien37

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:49 PM

A corrupt bank.....no way.
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#11 thedestroyerofworlds

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 11:10 PM

Drug dealers, etc. using banks to "deposit" or "transfer" their proceeds, nothing new. Early 80's Miami was build on coke profits. Duffle bags of cash made their way into bank vaults and skyscrapers went up using laundered drug money.
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#12 dank.

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 11:26 PM

Get your "money" out of the bank. Invest in a safe.
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#13 Edler's Mind Tricks

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 11:45 PM

They don't actually steal your money. They may do unethical things with it and use it to do things that contribute to the destabilization of the world economy.... But it will still be there!
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#14 DefCon1

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 02:20 AM

lol @ $1 Billion slap-on-the-wrist


Hey now, they used those money to fund the HSBC Celebration of Light. So they really had a cause for it :bigblush:
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QUOTE (Rye and Kesler @ Jun 29 2009, 10:24 PM) Where is Celebrities? I am tryin to find it on Club vibes but i can't find it. Is it relatively new? Sounds good though we will have to check it out.

I think Germany is the exception because they should know how to use their own balls.

QUOTE (pacecar @ Aug 2 2009, 11:53 AM) Sheep are ok but horses, ewww.


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#15 DefCon1

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 02:21 AM

Get your "money" out of the bank. Invest in a safe.


Or put it under the mattress like some people do.
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QUOTE (Rye and Kesler @ Jun 29 2009, 10:24 PM) Where is Celebrities? I am tryin to find it on Club vibes but i can't find it. Is it relatively new? Sounds good though we will have to check it out.

I think Germany is the exception because they should know how to use their own balls.

QUOTE (pacecar @ Aug 2 2009, 11:53 AM) Sheep are ok but horses, ewww.


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#16 JLumme

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 06:43 AM

Or put it under the mattress like some people do.


Tel Aviv search for mattress containing $1M life savings

http://articles.cnn....ngs?_s=PM:WORLD
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#17 Blame Obama

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 01:44 PM

told you HSBC sucks!
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#18 key2thecup

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 01:45 PM

Former HSBC Boss Turned UK Minister Says Won't Resign

A former chairman of HSBC Holdings PLC (HBC) Tuesday expressed regret over alleged money-laundering at the bank during his time in charge, but said he won't resign from his current role as a U.K. government minister.

Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint tells Sky News' City Editor Mark Kleinman he had "acted appropriately" and had "no case to answer" after a U.S. Senate committee found that HSBC had performed inadequate checks between 2006 and 2009, which allowed drug cartels and terrorist organizations to allegedly launder money through HSBC's U.S. bank.
Lord Green was chief executive of HSBC from 2003-2006 and then chairman until 2010. He took up the role of trade minister in the coalition government at the beginning of last year.

"As and when issues were drawn to our attention, as we were seeking to grapple with the issues, we took action," he said. "I think we must acknowledge there were some failures of implementation. HSBC has expressed its regret for that. I share that regret."

In a separate development, he also expressed regret over the HSBC scandal in a letter to Labour treasury spokesman Chris Leslie. But Mr. Leslie said Lord Green hadn't addressed the concerns he had raised and that the peer should address parliament over the allegations.

"The House of Lords remains in session. He must now come to Parliament and explain what he knew, when he knew it and what action he took," Mr. Leslie said.
Lord Green also quashed speculation he was in the running as a possible successor to Mervyn King as governor of the Bank of England, saying he had "no interest in any other public service jobs."

http://www.foxbusine.../#ixzz21Zge9IS6


Senate Report: UK Bank Dealt Illegally With Iran, Saudi Radicals, and Mexican Drug Dealers


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Last week, the U.S. Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations released a report and held hearings on the giant British-based HSBC bank. HSBC Holdings was ranked as the sixth-largest public company in the world by Forbes in 2011, with assets of $2.5 trillion.

The Senate subcommittee, led by Carl Levin (D, Mich.) and Tom Coburn (R, Okla.), conducted a yearlong probe of HSBC Bank USA, N.A., known as HBUS, a major platform for HSBC’s expansive operations. According to the subcommittee’s press release, HSBC “exposed the U.S. financial system to a wide array of money laundering, drug trafficking, and terrorist financing risks.”

The results of the HSBC inquiry are both damning and enigmatic. The subcommittee’s report, running 340 pages, is titled, “U.S. Vulnerabilities to Money Laundering, Drugs, and Terrorist Financing: HSBC Case History.” The report is supplemented, separately, by 539 pages of exhibits.


HSBC is charged with laxity in its anti-money laundering (AML) controls. This issue was aggravated by the inadequacy of its federal regulator, the Office for the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC), in monitoring “$60 trillion in wire transfer and account activity; a backlog of 17,000 unreviewed account alerts regarding potentially suspicious activity; and a failure to conduct AML due diligence before opening accounts for HSBC affiliates. Subcommittee investigators found that the OCC had failed to take a single enforcement action against the bank, formal or informal, over the previous six years, despite ample evidence of AML problems.”
The subcommittee investigated five “areas of abuse.” These included, first, “service to high-risk affiliates,” notably HSBC Bank Mexico (HBMX), which was maintained as a “low-risk client.” HBMX transferred $7 billion in U.S. paper money to HBUS in 2007-08, income that Mexican and U.S. authorities surmised came from illicit drug sales.

The bank was next accused of evading oversight by the U.S. Treasury’s Office of Foreign Asset Control (OFAC). The Subcommittee press release stated bluntly, “Foreign HSBC banks actively circumvented U.S. safeguards at HBUS designed to block transactions involving terrorists, drug lords, and rogue regimes. In one case examined by the Subcommittee, two HSBC affiliates sent nearly 25,000 transactions involving $19.4 billion through their HBUS accounts over seven years without disclosing the transactions’ links to Iran.”

Third, the subcommittee charged HBUS with “Disregarding Terrorist Financing Links. HBUS provided U.S. dollars and banking services to some banks in Saudi Arabia and Bangladesh despite links to terrorist financing.”
The two final areas of scrutiny appear of lesser significance when compared with services to drug smugglers, Iran, and Saudi-based radicals. They involve “Suspicious Bulk Travelers Checks,” in which HSBC “cleared $290 million in obviously suspicious U.S. travelers cheques for a Japanese bank, benefiting Russians who claimed to be in the used car business,” and “Offering Bearer Share Accounts.” Under the latter heading, the subcommittee states that “HSBC offered more than 2,000 accounts to bearer share corporations, despite the high risk of money laundering and illicit conduct that results since their ownership can be readily transferred without a trail.”

In dealing with Iran, the subcommittee found that “from 2000 to 2010... HSBC affiliates sending OFAC sensitive transactions involving Iran through their U.S. dollar correspondent accounts at HBUS took steps to conceal them, including by deleting references to Iran from the payment instructions or by characterizing the transaction as a transfer between banks in permitted jurisdictions without disclosing any Iranian connection.”

The Senate investigators additionally found HSBC doing business with Burma, Cuba, North Korea, and Sudan, along with individuals on the roster of “specially designated nationals” (SDN) maintained by the Treasury Department, “although to a much lesser extent than those related to Iran.” The SDN list includes “individuals, groups, and entities, such as terrorists and narcotics traffickers designated under programs that are not country-specific."

....continued

http://www.weeklysta...ers_648905.html


Edited by key2thecup, 24 July 2012 - 01:46 PM.

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#19 ronthecivil

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 03:07 PM

Or put it under the mattress like some people do.


Meh if we keep on the policy of zero interest rates there's a good chance your pile of money will simply be rendered useless via inflation. If your going to be a doomer at least stock up on some gold or something.
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#20 ronthecivil

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 03:09 PM

They don't actually steal your money. They may do unethical things with it and use it to do things that contribute to the destabilization of the world economy.... But it will still be there!


If governments lived within their means they wouldn't need to keep interest rates low and there would be no reason to allow the banks to do half the crazy stuff they do now as it would not be profitable.

But alas years of worldwide deficit spending is now coming due so the witch hunts will begin when in fact it's all way way too late.
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#21 key2thecup

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 02:00 PM


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#22 kyledude

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 02:34 PM

If corporations were people, this one would be in jail.
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#23 Electro Rock

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:27 PM

Water wet, sky is blue, big finance is corrupt.

And if you think they're bad now, just wait another 20 years when technological advances will make them utterly unaccountable.
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#24 Wetcoaster

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:51 PM

Water wet, sky is blue, big finance is corrupt.

And if you think they're bad now, just wait another 20 years when technological advances will make them utterly unaccountable.


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#25 Electro Rock

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:10 PM

Wecoaster must have killed has Sunday bottle of scotch if he thinks the banking elite aren't the single most powerful group of people in the world, don't benefit from circumstances that are detrimental to the rest of us, and that technological advancements of all kinds aren't going to replace human labor to an ever increasing degree.
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"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."

Norman Thomas

#26 Wetcoaster

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:16 PM

Wecoaster must have killed has Sunday bottle of scotch if he thinks the banking elite aren't the single most powerful group of people in the world, don't benefit from circumstances that are detrimental to the rest of us, and that technological advancements of all kinds aren't going to replace human labor to an ever increasing degree.

Are you wearing you Sunday go to meeting tin foil hat?
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

Illegitimi non carborundum.

Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#27 Electro Rock

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:22 PM

Are you wearing you Sunday go to meeting tin foil hat?


No, I'm wearing the superhero costume of my alter-ego, Captain Obvious.
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"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."

Norman Thomas

#28 Wetcoaster

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:24 PM

No, I'm wearing the superhero costume of my alter-ego, Captain Obvious.

Appears you have chosen the wrong costume.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

Illegitimi non carborundum.

Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#29 canucks since 77

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:57 PM

No, I'm wearing the superhero costume of my alter-ego, Captain Obvious.

Can I be your sidekick? How does Corporal Apparent sound? If not can I at least have your autograph? ::D
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Politeness is the first step to respect!

#30 Wetcoaster

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 06:25 PM

Can I be your sidekick? How does Corporal Apparent sound? If not can I at least have your autograph? ::D

It would look something like this.eh?

Posted Image
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

Illegitimi non carborundum.

Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.




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