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#91 MoneypuckOverlord

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:39 PM

I smell b.s. Because of the ever improving image of the country, they are trying to pin this blame onto the bhuddists. B.S. Bhuddist fate is never about killing. It's done by the government, wanting to blame the Bhuddists, because if they are caught doing this, sanctions will be put on them again.

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#92 Sharpshooter

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:50 PM

I smell b.s. Because of the ever improving image of the country, they are trying to pin this blame onto the bhuddists. B.S. Bhuddist fate is never about killing. It's done by the government, wanting to blame the Bhuddists, because if they are caught doing this, sanctions will be put on them again.


I'm not sure there is any doubt that some of the people who identify themselves as buddhists have killed other people who identify themselves as muslims.....the issue for me at least was the disingenuousness nature of the Pakistani reports of the situation as one of 'Buddhists killing Muslims'. That's b.s....because religion doesn't seem to be a factor, once one digs into the story through sources other than those of a muslim propaganda type that was offered in the OP.

I suspect the thread's creator was attempting to show examples whereby muslims aren't the protagonists, like they've been shown to be on occasion in other threads, but that they too are victims of religiously motivated violence. He just failed to smell the b.s. that he should have been aware of, had he used some critical thinking skills and sought out more info before deciding to take the Pakistani 'unsourced report' at face value and then offer it as a legitimate report for the point that I believe he was attempting to make.

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#93 D-Money

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:41 PM

I have Canadian friends who lived in Burma. Beautiful place, but corrupt as anything.

Whatever is happening to Muslims in Burma pales in comparison to what Islamic governments in Sudan and Syria have been up to lately. But I wouldn't expect much attention to be drawn to that at pakobserver.net.

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#94 Super19

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:37 PM

This is making me tear up.


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#95 Sharpshooter

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:50 PM

So, where are all the Islamic state gov'ts to help these people by putting pressure on the Burmese gov't?

Where's the Red Crescent to drop in aid and supplies?

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#96 Super19

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:54 PM

I smell b.s. Because of the ever improving image of the country, they are trying to pin this blame onto the bhuddists. B.S. Bhuddist fate is never about killing. It's done by the government, wanting to blame the Bhuddists, because if they are caught doing this, sanctions will be put on them again.

I know what you mean, Islam doesn't support terrorism yet Muslim terrorists seem to think so. But the fact is, none of this is BS, this is real, it's happening, and apparently it's been happening for a long time. The Rohingya's are one of the most persecuted minorities in the world and this has nothing to do with dampening the 'improving image of the country' - infact it couldn't be further from the truth as on the contrary, in this piece from The Economist, it wholly says otherwise to your sentiments:

"There is so much justified excitement about Myanmar’s reforms and emergence, that the chances the Rohingyas’ suffering will be taken seriously are even lower than usual. But it is hard to quibble with the analysis of Brad Adams, Human Rights Watch’s Asia director: “If the atrocities in Arakan had happened before the government’s reform process started, the international reaction would have been swift and strong. But the international community appears to be blinded by a romantic narrative of sweeping change in Burma [Myanmar], signing new trade deals and lifting sanctions even while the abuses continue.”"
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#97 Super19

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:57 PM

So, where are all the Islamic state gov'ts to help these people by putting pressure on the Burmese gov't?

Where's the Red Crescent to drop in aid and supplies?

You already know my sourness and expressed anger towards the state of the Arab and so called Islamic leaders. It's pathetic.

With that being said, Turkey and Saudi Arabia have both done a little something somethiing. Turkey first gave a shipment of aid and then Saudi's King followed suit with 50 million in aid. Let me see if I can dig up sources, but I'm pretty sure I can back it up.

Muslims need to wake up to all this, but at least there is some campaigning going on by the umma at large. Plus, this has opened my eyes to other minorities in Burma, such as the Chinese Muslims and even a minority of Buddhists I think. It just goes to show that if you're poor enough, you don't seem to get the attention, as I'm sure there are other minorites being abused as well - it just seems as if not up to the scale of that in Burma.

Edited by Super19, 13 August 2012 - 07:00 PM.

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#98 Super19

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:04 PM

In one of the brothers mosques I know , they raised 80,000+lbs in a charity dinner towards Burma and Syria one of these past nights in Ramadaan. There is a collective effort being done on behalf of the Ummah.

Our so called "leaders" (not) are not doing a good job, including the ones in Bangledesh which is a joke. And not to mention the other leaders who are oppressing their own people (ie Syria)

Edited by Super19, 13 August 2012 - 07:05 PM.

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#99 Super19

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:15 PM

I have Canadian friends who lived in Burma. Beautiful place, but corrupt as anything.

Whatever is happening to Muslims in Burma pales in comparison to what Islamic governments in Sudan and Syria have been up to lately. But I wouldn't expect much attention to be drawn to that at pakobserver.net.

No Islamic government would oppress their own people like that, especially with the brutal amount that's happening in Syria. Infact, no Islamic government should oppress their own people regardless of religion or ethnicity. No government should damnit!

But what makes you say the Rohingyas plight in Burma pales to that of those being oppressed in Syria (or Sudan)? No need to compare... but if you must, if it means anything to you, the UN and other humanity groups have gone to the lengths of saying "rohingyas = one of most persecuted minorities in the world".

I'll be honest, i never even knew that community existed up till, earlier this week.
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#100 Sharpshooter

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:20 PM

In one of the brothers mosques I know , they raised 80,000+lbs in a charity dinner towards Burma and Syria one of these past nights in Ramadaan. There is a collective effort being done on behalf of the Ummah.

Our so called "leaders" (not) are not doing a good job, including the ones in Bangledesh which is a joke. And not to mention the other leaders who are oppressing their own people (ie Syria)


I applaud the effort, but why aren't muslims such as yourself putting pressure on islamic gov't with your protests and words of indignation, since they're the ones who will be able to do anything meaningful. 80k lbs of food is great, but how do they plan on getting any of that into Burma?

It's a tragedy what's being done to them...but I still don't see how you and frankly other media outlets such as Al Jazeera, whom I normally think do a decent journalistic job, can tie what's being done to these people with religion. It seems like this is a case of ethnic cleansing by the Burmese gov't moreso than a clash of religions. That is until the Islamists turn it into a religious issue. Is that the only way some muslims in Pakistan seem to bring themselves to help? It's a shame if it is, because I think it will only make the situation worse. Adding religious fueled outrage is like pouring gasoline on an open flame.

Edited by Sharpshooter, 13 August 2012 - 07:26 PM.

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#101 لني

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:47 PM

Its reported as such because its lazy, some dont bother to dig into the history.

Its easy to sell the idea as "Muslims Killed" as opposed to

"Deep seated long standing racism towards darker skinned people in SE Asia rears it ugly head against people of disputed origin who no one claims as their own but are living in a country who has used racial tensions to divide one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the world that has recently emerged from years as an pariah state etc etc etc"


And yes some in the muslim community would like to turn this into muslims vs ???.
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It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#102 Sharpshooter

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:49 PM

Its reported as such because its lazy, some dont bother to dig into the history.

Its easy to sell the idea as "Muslims Killed" as opposed to

"Deep seated long standing racism towards darker skinned people in SE Asia rears it ugly head against people of disputed origin who no one claims as their own but are living in a country who has used racial tensions to divide one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the world that has recently emerged from years as an pariah state etc etc etc"


And yes some in the muslim community would like to turn this into muslims vs ???.


Now that makes a lot of sense to me....much moreso than 'Militant Buddhists kill Muslims'.

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#103 Super19

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:55 PM

I applaud the effort, but why aren't muslims such as yourself putting pressure on islamic gov't with your protests and words of indignation, since they're the ones who will be able to do anything meaningful. 80k lbs of food is great, but how do they plan on getting any of that into Burma?

Muslims such as myself are making a buzz on social media. I'm sure some communities around the world have done some peaceful protests but I'm only guessing there. And some of these Arab countries are seeing revolutions and change where they are literally trying to force the oppressors out GodWilling.

How they getting it in to Burma? I don't know, I sure hope it's all legit though. It's good of you to ask that though.

It's a tragedy what's being done to them...but I still don't see how you and frankly other media outlets such as Al Jazeera, whom I normally think do a decent journalistic job, can tie what's being done to these people with religion. It seems like this is a case of ethnic cleansing by the Burmese gov't moreso than a clash of religions. That is until the Islamists turn it into a religious issue. Is that the only way some muslims in Pakistan seem to bring themselves to help? It's a shame if it is, because I think it will only make the situation worse. Adding religious fueled outrage is like pouring gasoline on an open flame.

First off, my apologies if it seemed like I tied this to religion. I don't think I did wholly, but I know I did it a bit. I've also mentioned that this was ethnic as well. Truth is, it seems to be a bit of both, though the ethnic reason far outweighs the religious one.

Now , this is a religious issue in the sense that it's almost an obligation on the rest of the Ummah to help the Muslims being prosecuted in Burma. We are an ummah afterall. And it's not like we would deny help to the minority in Burma who isn't Muslim.

I understand that these persecutions are not exclusively religious based because the majority of it seems to be ethnic.

Why haven't you said anything to the posters making tongue in cheek comments about "imagine no religion" and "religions is stupid" and blah blah blah when you for the past couple of pages have been telling me that religion isn't related to this persecution?

True to your last statement.

Edited by Super19, 13 August 2012 - 07:57 PM.

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#104 Super19

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:14 PM

Very Informative lecture so far already discussing many points discussed in this thread.




I haven't seen this entire video, but Sharpie (+Lonny and others) direct your attention to the first 5 minutes or at least 4:50, kudos. The speaker said it very well.

Edited by Super19, 13 August 2012 - 08:22 PM.

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#105 Sharpshooter

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:26 PM

I watched it. I agree with him, or he does with me, that this isn't an issue of Buddhism vs.Islam.

I also couldn't help but notice his hypocrisy is suggesting that Muslims stand up for those being oppressed, wherever they may be and give justice to humanity when the truth is that Islamic states oppress segments of their own populations and mete out oppressive justice to women while suppressing their fundamental human rights of equality and freedom.

Again, i recognize what this man is saying, and I'd agree with him on some levels....on other levels, he's clearly tone-deaf.

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#106 Super19

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:36 PM

I watched it. I agree with him, or he does with me, that this isn't an issue of Buddhism vs.Islam.

I also couldn't help but notice his hypocrisy is suggesting that Muslims stand up for those being oppressed, wherever they may be and give justice to humanity when the truth is that Islamic states oppress segments of their own populations and mete out oppressive justice to women while suppressing their fundamental human rights of equality and freedom.

Again, i recognize what this man is saying, and I'd agree with him on some levels....on other levels, he's clearly tone-deaf.

I'm sure he is quite aware of all that and more. And I'm sure he himself speaks out against the Islamic oppressors no matter if it's in Burma or Arab states - I wouldn't put it past him.

He means "Muslim" in the theological sense, which should put an end to his hypocrisy.

Thanks.

Edited by Super19, 13 August 2012 - 08:36 PM.

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#107 Sharpshooter

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:37 PM

I'm sure he is quite aware of all that and more. And I'm sure he himself speaks out against the Islamic oppressors no matter if it's in Burma or Arab states - I wouldn't put it past him.

He means "Muslim" in the theological sense, which should put an end to his hypocrisy.

Thanks.


I hope he does speak out about it when it happens in his own community. That would be very refreshing.

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#108 لني

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:40 PM

Very Informative lecture so far already discussing many points discussed in this thread.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcNOPaj8utk

I haven't seen this entire video, but Sharpie (+Lonny and others) direct your attention to the first 5 minutes or at least 4:50, kudos. The speaker said it very well.


Dont know which is worse his arabic or english accent.lol



I particularly liked the 15 minute mark where he talking about arbitrary taxes, restrictions on marriage etc and all I can think is, dhimmah anyone?
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It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#109 لني

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:43 PM

Very Informative lecture so far already discussing many points discussed in this thread.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcNOPaj8utk

I haven't seen this entire video, but Sharpie (+Lonny and others) direct your attention to the first 5 minutes or at least 4:50, kudos. The speaker said it very well.


Not sure what you wanted me to see in particular.

Maybe him saying it wasnt a muslim vs buddhist thing?
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It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#110 taxi

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 09:22 PM

No Islamic government would oppress their own people like that, especially with the brutal amount that's happening in Syria. Infact, no Islamic government should oppress their own people regardless of religion or ethnicity. No government should damnit!

But what makes you say the Rohingyas plight in Burma pales to that of those being oppressed in Syria (or Sudan)? No need to compare... but if you must, if it means anything to you, the UN and other humanity groups have gone to the lengths of saying "rohingyas = one of most persecuted minorities in the world".

I'll be honest, i never even knew that community existed up till, earlier this week.


Are you serious?  Besides the examples of Syria and Sudan already given, this problem is partially the result of the Bangladeshi government, which is an islamic government.  Burma gives citizenship to all Rohignya who entered the country prior to 1948.  All Rohignya who entered after did so illegally.  They are a Bangladeshi ethnic group.  Here's the kicker, they want to go back to Bangladesh, but Bangladesh won't let them.  Who do you think they are reffering to when they refer to "our brothers" in your video.  They're talking about the Bangladeshi who won't let them back in.  So yes, a muslim government is taking full part in all of this.Edit: While we're on the topic of islamic governments supressing their own people, should we bring up the Shia vs. Sunni conflict. How many tens of millions have died as a result of that?

Edited by taxi, 13 August 2012 - 09:26 PM.


#111 Super19

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 09:35 PM

Are you serious? Besides the examples of Syria and Sudan already given, this problem is partially the result of the Bangladeshi government, which is an islamic government. Burma gives citizenship to all Rohignya who entered the country prior to 1948. All Rohignya who entered after did so illegally. They are a Bangladeshi ethnic group. Here's the kicker, they want to go back to Bangladesh, but Bangladesh won't let them. Who do you think they are reffering to when they refer to "our brothers" in your video. They're talking about the Bangladeshi who won't let them back in. So yes, a muslim government is taking full part in all of this.Edit: While we're on the topic of islamic governments supressing their own people, should we bring up the Shia vs. Sunni conflict. How many tens of millions have died as a result of that?

Yes yes, agreed. But I don't agree that those are Islamic governments... I agree that they are oppressive and pathetic ones.
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#112 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 09:36 PM

Yes yes, agreed. But I don't agree that those are Islamic governments... I agree that they are oppressive and pathetic ones.

I'm genuinely curious. What would be your definition of an Islamic government?
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#113 لني

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 09:43 PM

Yes yes, agreed. But I don't agree that those are Islamic governments... I agree that they are oppressive and pathetic ones.


Aaaand here we go.

Unfortunately Super you dont get to decide whos a muslim and whos not.

Im also curious as to which previous dynasty, muslim empire would be classified as Islamic? The ones that applied different rules for the dhimmah?
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It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#114 taxi

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 09:49 PM

Yes yes, agreed. But I don't agree that those are Islamic governments... I agree that they are oppressive and pathetic ones.


So basically, whenever a muslim person does something bad, they aren't true muslims, so a muslim can never do anything wrong...right.You realize that Sudan desfines itself as an islamic state and uses Sharia law. That didn't stop them from killing millions of black muslims. Sudan may be the most islamic government in the world. Bangladesh is a country that is 90% muslim and about 150 million muslims live there. Islam is the state religion in Bangladesh. Even if the government is not islamic enough for you, why aren't the citizens helping out their fellow muslims and offering their homes?I'm not trying to single out muslims here. Jews, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, and Buddhists have all commited their share of attrocities (as I'm sure you'll let us know about any moment). But how can you possibly take this stance that muslims are capable of commiting no wrong? It's quite baffling.

#115 Sharpshooter

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 09:59 PM

Aaaand here we go.

Unfortunately Super you dont get to decide whos a muslim and whos not.

Im also curious as to which previous dynasty, muslim empire would be classified as Islamic? The ones that applied different rules for the dhimmah?



The Mughals?

Oh wait, they were responsible for the systematic slaughter of Hindus and Sikhs....so they weren't 'true' muslims........or were they??

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#116 Super19

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:12 PM

I'm genuinely curious. What would be your definition of an Islamic government?

One with an established Caliphate and it's not my definition.

Aaaand here we go.

Unfortunately Super you dont get to decide whos a muslim and whos not.

Im also curious as to which previous dynasty, muslim empire would be classified as Islamic? The ones that applied different rules for the dhimmah?

Of course, and I haven't. But I can certainly say what's an Islamic government or not which is what we were talking about. And I haven't said those leaders who call themselves Muslim as being not.

Ottomans - they were successful.

So basically, whenever a muslim person does something bad, they aren't true muslims, so a muslim can never do anything wrong...right.You realize that Sudan desfines itself as an islamic state and uses Sharia law. That didn't stop them from killing millions of black muslims. Sudan may be the most islamic government in the world. Bangladesh is a country that is 90% muslim and about 150 million muslims live there. Islam is the state religion in Bangladesh. Even if the government is not islamic enough for you, why aren't the citizens helping out their fellow muslims and offering their homes?I'm not trying to single out muslims here. Jews, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, and Buddhists have all commited their share of attrocities (as I'm sure you'll let us know about any moment). But how can you possibly take this stance that muslims are capable of commiting no wrong? It's quite baffling.

No not at all.
Sudan can define itself as an Islamic state just as America can call itself the land of the free (bad analogy), but the irony here of course is that Islamically it is not.

I see some Muslims committing wrong and I've called them out on it in this very thread, on this very page.

The Mughals?

Oh wait, they were responsible for the systematic slaughter of Hindus and Sikhs....so they weren't 'true' muslims........or were they??

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#117 لني

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:16 PM

So basically, whenever a muslim person does something bad, they aren't true muslims, so a muslim can never do anything wrong...right.You realize that Sudan desfines itself as an islamic state and uses Sharia law. That didn't stop them from killing millions of black muslims. Sudan may be the most islamic government in the world. Bangladesh is a country that is 90% muslim and about 150 million muslims live there. Islam is the state religion in Bangladesh. Even if the government is not islamic enough for you, why aren't the citizens helping out their fellow muslims and offering their homes?I'm not trying to single out muslims here. Jews, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, and Buddhists have all commited their share of attrocities (as I'm sure you'll let us know about any moment). But how can you possibly take this stance that muslims are capable of commiting no wrong? It's quite baffling.


No true canuck fan would trash downtown vancouver.

No true scotsman would pass pass up a pint, a wee dram, and a fight. Nor a chance to puke all over themselves shortly there after.
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It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#118 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:21 PM

One with an established Caliphate and it's not my definition.

Define an established caliphate, then. It's certainly not the opinion of the various governments around the world who consider themselves to be ruling in accordance with the Quran and hadith.
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#119 لني

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:23 PM

One with an established Caliphate and it's not my definition.

Of course, and I haven't. But I can certainly say what's an Islamic government or not which is what we were talking about. And I haven't said those leaders who call themselves Muslim as being not.

Ottomans - they were successful.

No not at all.
Sudan can define itself as an Islamic state just as America can call itself the land of the free (bad analogy), but the irony here of course is that Islamically it is not.

I see some Muslims committing wrong and I've called them out on it in this very thread, on this very page.

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Thank you for using an example. So how would dhimmah be treated under said caliphate should one be established? As they were during ottoman rule?
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It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#120 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:24 PM

No true canuck fan would trash downtown vancouver.

No true scotsman would pass pass up a pint, a wee dram, and a fight. Nor a chance to puke all over themselves shortly there after.

Beat me to the punch. The no true Scotsman fallacy gets pulled out pretty often in religious discussions.
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