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Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences


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#751 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:39 PM

Dude, solid post.

I think humans being related to chimps doesn't present inherent problem within my religion though.

Weren't you saying earlier in the thread that Islam doesn't allow for humans to be anything but specially created separate from the animals? Obviously this can be adjusted for by taking a metaphorical view of the Adam and Eve story, but it does discredit the strictly literalist interpretation of the Quran.
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#752 Super19

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:42 PM

Weren't you saying earlier in the thread that Islam doesn't allow for humans to be anything but specially created separate from the animals? Obviously this can be adjusted for by taking a metaphorical view of the Adam and Eve story, but it does discredit the strictly literalist interpretation of the Quran.

Maybe I was wrong, and perhaps your latter point isn't as blasphemous as I once thought. It's something ii hope modern islamic scholarship pursues to understand and may God guide them in it, ameen.
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#753 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:44 PM

How do the facts of ToE disprove Islam?


You said before you believed in Adam and Eve and I asked for clarification but you disappeared. I assumed you took the advice in that quote you posted from the Muslim handbook on internet protocol and took your leave. If you explain your/your religions stance with regard to origin of human beings perhaps I can help shed some light on the matter or at least help foster the discussion.
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#754 dajusta

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:44 PM

Maybe I was wrong, and perhaps your latter point isn't as blasphemous as I once thought. It's something ii hope modern islamic scholarship pursues to understand and may God guide them in it, ameen.


Super19 what is your faith?
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#755 Bitter Melon

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:46 PM

Weren't you saying earlier in the thread that Islam doesn't allow for humans to be anything but specially created separate from the animals? Obviously this can be adjusted for by taking a metaphorical view of the Adam and Eve story, but it does discredit the strictly literalist interpretation of the Quran.


Somewhat unrelated, but interestingly enough, Adam and Eve did exist. Every human alive today carries the genes from one male and one female in their family line. But they lived thousands of years apart.

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#756 Super19

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:48 PM

Super19 what is your faith?

I believe in Allah, the Abrahamic God, brotha. Islam is my religion, and just for clarity, I do believe in following the sunnah.
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#757 dajusta

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:52 PM

Here's another micro-evolutionary example of how common ancestry works with a very high degree of probability:



Genetics....one of the best evidences for establishing common ancestry.


Francis Collins, one of the scientists who was on the Human Genome Project, is an evangelical Christian.

"“To get our universe, with all of its potential for complexities or any kind of potential for any kind of life-form, everything has to be precisely defined on this knife edge of improbability…. [Y]ou have to see the hands of a creator who set the parameters to be just so because the creator was interested in something a little more complicated than random particles.”
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#758 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:52 PM

Super19 what is your faith?


Uh oh, here we go. Which one of you is wrong?
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#759 dajusta

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:54 PM

I believe in Allah, the Abrahamic God, brotha. Islam is my religion, and just for clarity, I do believe in following the sunnah.


Super19, I really want to say, that I apologize immensely for the stupid anti-Muslim film. It's over the top, unneeded, and extremely offensive. I wish I could go Libya and personally apologize to every Muslim there..
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#760 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:54 PM

Maybe I was wrong, and perhaps your latter point isn't as blasphemous as I once thought. It's something ii hope modern islamic scholarship pursues to understand and may God guide them in it, ameen.

Good on you for being open to adjusting your views if the evidence supports it.

As Galileo said,
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."

Somewhat unrelated, but interestingly enough, Adam and Eve did exist. Every human alive today carries the genes from one male and one female in their family line. But they lived thousands of years apart.

They're "Adam and Eve" in name only, obviously. In addition to living tens of thousands of years apart, our most recent common male and female ancestors weren't the only members of their respective genders at that time, either.

Edited by VICanucksfan5551, 18 September 2012 - 12:08 AM.

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#761 dajusta

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:55 PM

Uh oh, here we go. Which one of you is wrong?


We both believe in God. We are both right ;)
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#762 Bitter Melon

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:58 PM

Francis Collins, one of the scientists who was on the Human Genome Project, is an evangelical Christian.

"“To get our universe, with all of its potential for complexities or any kind of potential for any kind of life-form, everything has to be precisely defined on this knife edge of improbability…. [Y]ou have to see the hands of a creator who set the parameters to be just so because the creator was interested in something a little more complicated than random particles.”


And 97% of the National Academy of Science Members are atheist. And 1% of the prison population is atheist.

Who believes it is irrelevant to making to truthful or not.

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#763 Bitter Melon

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:03 AM

They're only "Adam and Eve" in name only, obviously. In addition to living tens of thousands of years apart, our most recent common male and female ancestors weren't the only members of their respective genders at that time, either.


They are Adam and Eve in that every modern human can trace their roots patrilineally or matrilineally to them. Obviously. I wasn't saying "Hurr durr, this means religion is true." Just pointing out an interesting fact.

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#764 dajusta

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:06 AM

And 97% of the National Academy of Science Members are atheist. And 1% of the prison population is atheist.

Who believes it is irrelevant to making to truthful or not.


Francis Collins was a self proclaimed atheist before his research in genetics. He converted after his findings.

How many of those members were born in atheist families?
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#765 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:07 AM

We both believe in God. We are both right ;)


Only if you are both heretics.
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#766 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:13 AM

They are Adam and Eve in that every modern human can trace their roots patrilineally or matrilineally to them. Obviously. I wasn't saying "Hurr durr, this means religion is true." Just pointing out an interesting fact.

Oh, I know. That's why I added the "obviously".
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#767 dajusta

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:16 AM

Only if you are both heretics.


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#768 Bitter Melon

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:18 AM

Francis Collins was a self proclaimed atheist before his research in genetics. He converted after his findings.

How many of those members were born in atheist families?



Given that's a US statistic, not many I would assume.

And you're using this argument that one smart guy believes in god therefore we all should. What about the myriad of brilliant scientists who don't believe in god?

Stephen Hawking, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc don't believe in god, therefore you shouldn't either.

Makes perfect sense, right?

Edited by CAPSLOCK, 18 September 2012 - 12:19 AM.

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#769 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:20 AM

Francis Collins was a self proclaimed atheist before his research in genetics. He converted after his findings.

How many of those members were born in atheist families?


Even the quickest research on Collins shows his collegues do not share his views and he is allowed to continue his work amongst them under the terms that they never come up.
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#770 dajusta

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:20 AM

Given that's a US statistic, not many I would assume.

And you're using this argument that one smart guy believes in god therefore we all should. What about the myriad of brilliant scientists who don't believe in god?

Stephen Hawking, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc don't believe in god, therefore you shouldn't either.

Makes perfect sense, right?


You have a point, but the original point was to refute the research of the human genetics as evidence against God.

And so I brought up a genetics expert to put more weight on the fact that the research does not necessarily disprove God.
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#771 Sharpshooter

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:22 AM

Yeah I think Lennox deals with Hawking's view pretty well in his book "God and Stephen Hawking: Whose Design is it Anyway?" Great little book only 96 pages and not expensive I would recommend it. I read it in a day last Spring. Check out the reviews on Goodreads or Amazon anyway.

Plus even if it were given that the universe could create itself out of nothing (and that's a big given) it still wouldn't answer the questions of whether a god was necessary for life or consciousness. Not to mention if "laws like gravity" existed then that would be something and not nothing. Which just raises the question are the laws of physics eternal? Did they always exist or did they have a cause? Anyway you look at it, whether god, or the laws of nature, something had to always exist and we don't seem to be in a position to say what that something was for sure.


How does Lennox 'deal' with Hawking's point about the laws of physics being necessary for this universes creation and not the need of a creator?

If you've read it, great, you can give me a summarized version of his point that address Hawking.


Although, you still didn't address the false equivalency issue. Do you actually think that I require a 'faith' in gravity in order to observe it, or to understand(some of us) how gravitational forces allow for the creation of universes, particularly ours, since we can observe, but also other one as theorized in M-Theory?

If you misspoke, then that's fine, but if you want to full-throatedly defend that statement, you're going to have to do better than an unquoted Lennox anecdote.

If the laws of physics can necessarily be shown through calculations, which they have been, that quantum fluctuations can give rise to our universe, then that also shows the unnecessary requirement that a God literally had a hand in the creation of the universe, let alone the creation of humans, or stars, or light, or light before the stars as he apparently is said to have accomplished, somehow.

Consciousness is an evolutionary by-product. I'm really surprised that you of all people are attempting to attribute that to a divine designer. You seem to go through periods of lunacy and lucidity. I'm guessing there's a full moon out tonight. ;)

And many of the laws of physics were created after the big bang. There was no magnetism for example, even immediately after the big bang, as there weren't other physics principles at the very start, of before-hand.

Even if we assume that 'something' always existed, you cannot make the logical leap that that thing was 'god', or any other mythical figurine of the cosmos. That's just bad logic.

Edited by Sharpshooter, 18 September 2012 - 12:31 AM.

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#772 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:23 AM

He believes in God

I believe in God


Do you think he is allowed to gloss over the chapter on creation like evangelical christians do with the book of genesis.
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#773 Bitter Melon

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:24 AM

You have a point, but the original point was to refute the research of the human genetics as evidence against God.

And so I brought up a genetics expert to put more weight on the fact that the research does not necessarily disprove God.


It doesn't necessarily disprove god. But it sure disproves a lot of things espoused by holy books and churches.

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#774 dajusta

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:26 AM

Do you think he is allowed to gloss over the chapter on creation like evangelical christians do with the book of genesis.


I don't understand. What do you mean? I'm assuming you think Genesis contradicts everything science is finding? If so, then trust me, I don't believe in young earth theory at all. Nor do I think Adam and Eve were the absolute first two human beings on the earth. But I still believe Genesis 1+2 as the infallible Word of God. How is this possible? The bible isn't a recording of God's mechanical how-to book on creation. It's more of "who, what, where, when".. not "how".

It doesn't necessarily disprove god. But it sure disproves a lot of things espoused by holy books and churches.


read up

Edited by dajusta, 18 September 2012 - 12:31 AM.

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#775 Super19

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:28 AM

Super19, I really want to say, that I apologize immensely for the stupid anti-Muslim film. It's over the top, unneeded, and extremely offensive. I wish I could go Libya and personally apologize to every Muslim there..

It was also low budget, poorly produced, and poorly scripted. Surely did not deserve this much attention and certainly not this much chaos. I'd like to apologize for the stupid actions of the ummah.. I'm sure this video was only a trigger to many other frustrations they had, but that is no way to act. The movie was stupid, but there are patient, iintellegent and tactful ways to deal with it. Not like babies.
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#776 Super19

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:30 AM


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#777 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:31 AM

I don't understand. What do you mean? I'm assuming you think Genesis contradicts everything science is finding? If so, then trust me, I don't believe in young earth theory at all. Nor do I think Adam and Eve were the absolute first two human beings on the earth. But I still believe Genesis 1+2 as the infallible Word of God.


Pickin and choosin, the evolution of the bible.
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#778 Bitter Melon

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:33 AM

read up


On? The part where man was created out of dust? Or where god made woman out of his rib? Or the part where bats are birds?

And what did those pesky giants get up to? Haven't seen them in a while.

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#779 dajusta

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:34 AM

Pickin and choosin, the evolution of the bible.


Really, you're educated in the area of ancient scripture and biblical interpretation?
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#780 dajusta

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:35 AM

On? The part where man was created out of dust? Or where god made woman out of his rib? Or the part where bats are birds?

And what did those pesky giants get up to? Haven't seen them in a while.


Yeah it's called poetry and literary devices.

Yao Ming looks pretty big for someone who's only 5 foot tall, no?
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