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Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences


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#1591 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:35 AM

^Scientology. Is that related to atheism? Or is that a cult? Is there a God in scientology named Xenu? Whatever. It's an example of how anyone can make a religion out of anything these days. Cha-ching!
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#1592 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:46 AM

Are there things that can't be explained though? You simply can't say that for certain. And please note I'm not saying that there definitely AREN'T "supernatural" phenomena (though I'd love for you to offer up some examples).

But it's also equally possible that we simply lack the knowledge AT THIS TIME to explain "X" phenomena. As I noted earlier, two thousand years ago we may have lacked the knowledge to explain seemingly "supernatural" acts like those earthquakes or say the aurora borealis. Yet we can explain them now. A lack of knowledge about a thing does not equate a quality of "supernatural" to it.

Interesting. If you aren't denying the existence of supernatual phenomena, then you are rejecting science. What empirical and measurable evidence is there for you to believe in supernatural phenomena? If you are rejecting science, then what are you in fact using to explain your believed supernatural phenomina?

Relax, i'm not saying that you have to use religion to explain these, but some do. Why? Because science cannot.

Perhaps science isn't the end-all to gaining true knowledge afterall. If that's the case, then who gives a frack if religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences?
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#1593 J.R.

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:01 AM

Interesting. If you aren't denying the existence of supernatual phenomena, then you are rejecting science. What empirical and measurable evidence is there for you to believe in supernatural phenomena? If you are rejecting science, then what are you in fact using to explain your believed supernatural phenomina?

Relax, i'm not saying that you have to use religion to explain these, but some do. Why? Because science cannot.

Perhaps science isn't the end-all to gaining true knowledge afterall. If that's the case, then who gives a frack if religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences?


Leaving my mind open to possibility isn't scientific? :blink: Just like the existence of "god" i think the truly "supernatural" is VERY unlikely. But with out science to refute (or support) it, I can not say with certainty it doesn't (or does) exist. Based on present knowledge, it's VERY unlikely. This is EXACTLY what science does.

As for your last point, it's not science that has the burden of proof of god/supernatural. Also, do you not believe religion exists? I do. Science can easily prove that. Once again you're talking out of your buttocks.

And I'm still waiting for your examples ;)

Edited by J.R., 27 September 2012 - 11:38 AM.

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#1594 Sharpshooter

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:27 AM

Interesting. If you aren't denying the existence of supernatual phenomena, then you are rejecting science. What empirical and measurable evidence is there for you to believe in supernatural phenomena? If you are rejecting science, then what are you in fact using to explain your believed supernatural phenomina?

Relax, i'm not saying that you have to use religion to explain these, but some do. Why? Because science cannot.

Perhaps science isn't the end-all to gaining true knowledge afterall. If that's the case, then who gives a frack if religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences?


Science is a process, not an absolutism. Science can be used to accept or reject claims about the natural world, even supernatural truth claims when they are purported to exist in the natural world.

You continue to make logical, and I use that word ever so sparingly in your case, leaps about what JR is asserting. No where did he say that he was :"rejecting science". That's your own fallacious inference from a faulty critical thinking skill-set. Science is the best game in town when it comes to acquiring 'real' and 'true' knowledge about the natural world. Critical thought is the game in town in identifying religion as nonsensical. But i'm sure you'll interpret that to mean that I have concluded that critical thought is just a 'game'.

Keep on trollin, trollin, trollin.
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#1595 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:37 AM

Science is a process, not an absolutism. Science can be used to accept or reject claims about the natural world, even supernatural truth claims when they are purported to exist in the natural world.

You continue to make logical, and I use that word ever so sparingly in your case, leaps about what JR is asserting. No where did he say that he was :"rejecting science". That's your own fallacious inference from a faulty critical thinking skill-set. Science is the best game in town when it comes to acquiring 'real' and 'true' knowledge about the natural world. Critical thought is the game in town in identifying religion as nonsensical. But i'm sure you'll interpret that to mean that I have concluded that critical thought is just a 'game'.

You've just explained why science cannot be used to disprove religion. All it can do is prove/disprove 'supernatural truth claims when they are purported to exist in the natural world.'

I think your problem isn't really with religion. It's with some of their followers' actions throughout history. You may or may not agree with their actions. That's your right. However, it's hardly scientific.

'Yawn' at the rest of your post. But at least it wasn't another animated gif or memegenerator pic.
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#1596 Sharpshooter

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:39 AM

You've just explained why science cannot be used to disprove religion. All it can do is prove/disprove 'supernatural truth claims when they are purported to exist in the natural world.'

I think your problem isn't really with religion. It's with some of their followers' actions throughout history. You may or may not agree with their actions. That's your right. However, it's hardly scientific.

'Yawn' at the rest of your post. But at least it wasn't another animated gif or memegenerator pic.


:picard:

That's what religion is, Trolly McTrollerton.
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#1597 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:45 AM

Leaving my mind open to possibility isn't scientific? Just like the existence of "god" i think the truly "supernatural" is VERY unlikely. But with out science to refute (or support) it, I can not say with certainty it doesn't (or does) exist. Based on present knowledge, it's VERY unlikely. This is EXACTLY what science does.

As for your last point, it's not science that has the burden of proof of god/supernatural. Also, do you not believe religion exists? I do. Science can easily prove that. Once again you're talking out of your buttocks.

And I'm still waiting for your examples

Hey, if you open up your mind to possibilities, then go for it. It's just not scientific method.

Oh, but if science doesn't have the burden of proof anyway, then i guess nobody has to give a frack if religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences. Good. Science and religion are mutually exclusive, or are supposed to be, anyway.


Funny that some supernatural phenomena are okay, but God is not. This is antitheism at it's most hypocritical.
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#1598 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:46 AM

That's what religion is, Trolly McTrollerton.


Nope.
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#1599 J.R.

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:48 AM

I think your problem isn't really with religion. It's with some of their followers' actions throughout history.


Finally, you wrote something sensible!

I'm not sure how I can make this any clearer. The problem with religion isn't a belief in fairy tales and silly stories, That's mostly comical and if that's where it stopped would be largely harmless. Like believing in Santa Claus. It's when people try to use those silly, non-reality based stories to try to bend, twist and otherwise influence everyone else's reality that we have problems.

It affects my government, my kids education, it starts wars, it gets abortion clinics blown up. Just like drug addiction, the problem isn't the substance it's the addict that is the problem. If anything religious people deserve our pity, compassion and help to get them over their addiction to archaic beliefs, fairy tales and hocus pocus.
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#1600 Nevlach

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:49 AM

"Religious people aren't crazy, they just believe crazy things."

-Hitchens
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#1601 J.R.

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:54 AM

Hey, if you open up your mind to possibilities, then go for it. It's just not scientific method.

Oh, but if science doesn't have the burden of proof anyway, then i guess nobody has to give a frack if religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences. Good. Science and religion are mutually exclusive, or are supposed to be, anyway.


Funny that some supernatural phenomena are okay, but God is not. This is antitheism at it's most hypocritical.


Yes it is EXACTLY scientific. If people didn't open their minds to anything being possible we'd still be living in caves.

And for the second time religion exists. It would take very little proof to prove that. Religion =/= god. ANd yes, science and god/supernatural are SUPPPOSED to be mutually exlsuive. It's people who keep trying to thrust god/supernatural in to science.

Do neither you or Heretic actually read posts? I'm just as "ok" with the "possibility" of god as I am with the supernatural. I simply lack and evidence to show me that either are at all, remotely likely. This is going to be a short discussion if you lack the skills to actually read/comprehend information,
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#1602 Sharpshooter

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 12:15 PM

Nope.


So religion isn't belief in supernatural claims whose existence is purported to be active on and in the natural world we live in???

Ah, that's right, according to you religion is non-belief in supernatural claims.....i forgot. :rolleyes:
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#1603 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 12:22 PM

^Scientology. Is that related to atheism? Or is that a cult? Is there a God in scientology named Xenu? Whatever. It's an example of how anyone can make a religion out of anything these days. Cha-ching!


Scientology makes as much sense as the bible does to me.
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#1604 Heretic

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 12:45 PM

For I believe the 4th time now. I'm not an anti-theist. You seem to have ignored my previous 3 rebuttals on the matter so I won't bother with another one. How typical of you to ignore facts and logic and continue to spout of senseless and baseless comments though. I'd expect nothing different from a person who ignores science and believes in fairy tales though.


Sorry - but for the 5th time, IMHO (and others) you are an anti-theist.
This is based on how you have replied in this thread.
Even you have said "Atheists don't try to disprove god (or anything else really) we simply lack belief one exists due to a lack of any evidence or data." yet you insist on calling me and others that we believe in "fairy tales" etc...

I do not ignore facts nor science - you have me confused with those you spew hatred towards.

You seem to ignore the truth - the truth hurts doesn't it?
That is, you appear to be offended by being labeled an anti-theist as opposed to just an atheist.
Maybe if you change your tune towards believers (like myself - not those creationists/right wing Bible pushing God hates _____ signs) then I'll change my opinion of you.
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#1605 J.R.

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 12:59 PM

Sorry - but for the 5th time, IMHO (and others) you are an anti-theist.
This is based on how you have replied in this thread.
Even you have said "Atheists don't try to disprove god (or anything else really) we simply lack belief one exists due to a lack of any evidence or data." yet you insist on calling me and others that we believe in "fairy tales" etc...

I do not ignore facts nor science - you have me confused with those you spew hatred towards.

You seem to ignore the truth - the truth hurts doesn't it?
That is, you appear to be offended by being labeled an anti-theist as opposed to just an atheist.
Maybe if you change your tune towards believers (like myself - not those creationists/right wing Bible pushing God hates _____ signs) then I'll change my opinion of you.


Contrary to the blueprint religion has given you, simply repeating something over and over does not make it so. I'm no more an "anti-theist" than you are a Leprechaun. Stating that there is no evidence of something and hence it is unlikely and also stating that that is no evidence that it doesn't exist as well, is not anti-theist. You obviously don't understand your own term.

And I'm far from offended. In a state of sheer disbelief and awe of your inability to comprehend seemingly simple information would be more accurate.
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#1606 Heretic

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:05 PM

Contrary to the blueprint religion has given you, simply repeating something over and over does not make it so. I'm no more an "anti-theist" than you are a Leprechaun. Stating that there is no evidence of something and hence it is unlikely and also stating that that is no evidence that it doesn't exist as well, is not anti-theist. You obviously don't understand your own term.

And I'm far from offended. In a state of sheer disbelief and awe of your inability to comprehend seemingly simple information would be more accurate.


Just stay away from my lucky charms.

You obviously don't understand me.
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#1607 J.R.

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:08 PM

You obviously don't understand me.


Oh I understand you just fine Leprechaun. As I said earlier, you have my pity for your addiction. Help is out there if you take it Leprechaun.
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#1608 Kass9

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:12 PM

Popcorn. Check.
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#1609 Heretic

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:12 PM

Oh I understand you just fine Leprechaun. As I said earlier, you have my pity for your addiction. Help is out there if you take it Leprechaun.


Then why are you calling me a Leprechaun? You have no scientific evidence for that.

You will feel a lot better if you just accept yourself.

Have a cookie.

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#1610 J.R.

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:26 PM

Then why are you calling me a Leprechaun? You have no scientific evidence for that.


:picard: Try and follow along now...

Exactly. Or does the term "illustrating a point" now also fly over your head Leprechaun?

I'm not sure this is sad or funny....
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#1611 Heretic

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:30 PM

:picard: Try and follow along now...

Exactly. Or does the term "illustrating a point" now also fly over your head Leprechaun?

I'm not sure this is sad or funny....


What's sad is that you won't admit that you're an anti-theist.

It's okay....there are alcoholics out there that won't admit they are one neither.

Oh! You were illustrating a point? really? I wouldn't have guessed. :picard:

Course mine must have been an airplane to you. :frantic:
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#1612 Sharpshooter

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:46 PM

Then why are you calling me a Leprechaun? You have no scientific evidence for that.

You will feel a lot better if you just accept yourself.

Have a cookie.


Here's some evidence:

Just stay away from my lucky charms.

You obviously don't understand me.


And its corroborative evidence:

Posted Image


You are therefore a self-identified leprechaun as hypothesized and now theorized through data collection and observation.

Let's see if you get the 'magically delicious' point of logic over the roar of your own imaginary airplane.
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#1613 Nevlach

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:47 PM

To help Heretic and JR here is the definition of anti-theism from The Skeptics Dictionary:

"Anti-theism is active and vocal opposition to belief in gods of any sort and to institutions built around belief in a deity. Anti-theists are not passive atheists; they delight in atheism and delight in exposing the errors, absurdities, and pretensions of theists. Anti-theists consider all gods to be false gods and any benefits from belief in gods to be far outweighed by the harm done by such beliefs to the individual and to society. Anti-theists don't deny that there may be some benefits to some people some of the time due to their delusional belief in a deity or two, but they adamantly deny that faith in religious books or ideas is a good thing."

Is this or is this not your stance JR?

If yes --> end debate

If no --> end debate

Some famous anti-theists include Lawrence Krauss and Christopher Hitchens.
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#1614 Nevlach

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:49 PM

Here's some evidence:



And its corroborative evidence:

Posted Image


You are therefore a self-identified leprechaun as hypothesized and now theorized through data collection and observation.

Let's see if you get the 'magically delicious' point of logic over the roar of your own imaginary airplane.

Silly Sharpshooter Trix are for kids...oh wait wrong cereal...
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#1615 J.R.

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:50 PM

What's sad is that you won't admit that you're an anti-theist.

It's okay....there are alcoholics out there that won't admit they are one neither.

Oh! You were illustrating a point? really? I wouldn't have guessed. :picard:

Course mine must have been an airplane to you. :frantic:


FFS Heretic! An anti-theist is someone who is CERTAIN there is no god.

Myself, being a person open to the possibility of their being god/supernatural, would NOT fall under that description, would I?

Can you please, reconcile for me the gaping discrepancy there in what you're saying?
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#1616 Nevlach

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:53 PM

FFS Heretic! An anti-theist is someone who is CERTAIN there is no god.

Myself, being a person open to the possibility of their being god/supernatural, would NOT fall under that description, would I?

Can you please, reconcile for me the gaping discrepancy there in what you're saying?

Oh thats why you are adamantly opposed to being labelled an anti-theist. I don't think anti-theists claim to be certain there is no god - they are just against all theistic beliefs more so than atheists who generally only lack a belief in a deity.
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#1617 Heretic

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:54 PM

Here's some evidence:



And its corroborative evidence:

Posted Image


You are therefore a self-identified leprechaun as hypothesized and now theorized through data collection and observation.

Let's see if you get the 'magically delicious' point of logic over the roar of your own imaginary airplane.



I didn't think you believed in corroborative evidence! ;)
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#1618 J.R.

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:54 PM

To help Heretic and JR here is the definition of anti-theism from The Skeptics Dictionary:

"Anti-theism is active and vocal opposition to belief in gods of any sort and to institutions built around belief in a deity. Anti-theists are not passive atheists; they delight in atheism and delight in exposing the errors, absurdities, and pretensions of theists. Anti-theists consider all gods to be false gods and any benefits from belief in gods to be far outweighed by the harm done by such beliefs to the individual and to society. Anti-theists don't deny that there may be some benefits to some people some of the time due to their delusional belief in a deity or two, but they adamantly deny that faith in religious books or ideas is a good thing."

Is this or is this not your stance JR?

If yes --> end debate

If no --> end debate

Some famous anti-theists include Lawrence Krauss and Christopher Hitchens.


if that is in fact the "standard" definition then by all means I apologize. I was working under the premise of it being adamantly opposed to the possibility/existence of god(s)
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#1619 Nevlach

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:55 PM

if that is in fact the "standard" definition then by all means I apologize. I was working under the premise of it being adamantly opposed to the possibility/existence of god(s)

Yeah I think that's a gnostic atheist...
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#1620 J.R.

J.R.

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:57 PM

Yeah I think that's a gnostic atheist...


Well then by all means I'll go buy an ant-theist t-shirt and bumper sticker now ;) :lol:
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"Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you."
- Neil deGrasse Tyson

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