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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#2281 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:04 PM

When condescending upon all, it results in isolation for the individual and unified defense from the crowd.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 10 December 2012 - 01:06 PM.

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#2282 TmanVan

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:06 PM

Yes Kadri is the second coming of Sakic I was wrong I will bow to you and your tribe of donkey's views..

done?


Idiot as for the banning? Same thing happened I made a point about Schnieds being better, got flamed, called a troll like you're saying now because I stated an opinion based on actual knowledge of hockey talent, vs I love my Lou Lou that's on here..got flamed by people etc....and know what buddy, mr I'll call you a troll because I can't handle the fact that mr.BuretoMogilny is right...you know what, guess what?

I WAS RIGHT


Once again you go straight back to saying how crappy Kadri is , when all I asked was what is a better option? Seems like you don't have an answer but can't admit it. You're so smart, everybody else is wrong, you know best, we're idiots.......make you feel better? Can you actually contribute something useful now??? What option is better than Kadri if we're dealing with the leafs?
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#2283 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:12 PM

Once again you go straight back to saying how crappy Kadri is , when all I asked was what is a better option? Seems like you don't have an answer but can't admit it. You're so smart, everybody else is wrong, you know best, we're idiots.......make you feel better? Can you actually contribute something useful now??? What option is better than Kadri if we're dealing with the leafs?


Better option don't trade to Toronto if all you're getting is Bozak and Kadri

Keep Lou until another team's starter goes down or Toronto gets a bit more desperate and gives up more (ie when they start seeing their goalies fail again).

Pretty simple. If you're giving up an All Star goalie no matter what the contract issues you should be getting back a player who is at least a projected Stud. You don't get a "maybe, a reclamation project, a potential 2nd liner if the stars align and his head gets in it"...sounds to me like an unloading of baggage.

Bozak sure, but he's a 3C on this team and a good addition to a package. You have to see at least a Reilly, Gardiner (highly doubtful), or Grabo (possible) coming back and depending on which potentially a pick in there as well.

Otherwise you wait...you don't give away strong assets for junk if you want to remain a contender long term.

Edited by BuretoMogilny, 10 December 2012 - 01:13 PM.

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#2284 TmanVan

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:17 PM

Better option don't trade to Toronto if all you're getting is Bozak and Kadri

Keep Lou until another team's starter goes down or Toronto gets a bit more desperate and gives up more (ie when they start seeing their goalies fail again).

Pretty simple. If you're giving up an All Star goalie no matter what the contract issues you should be getting back a player who is at least a projected Stud. You don't get a "maybe, a reclamation project, a potential 2nd liner if the stars align and his head gets in it"...sounds to me like an unloading of baggage.

Bozak sure, but he's a 3C on this team and a good addition to a package. You have to see at least a Reilly, Gardiner (highly doubtful), or Grabo (possible) coming back and depending on which potentially a pick in there as well.

Otherwise you wait...you don't give away strong assets for junk if you want to remain a contender long term.


Hey cool man, a post that isn't just bashing other people, and a half decent view at that! Wasn't so hard was it? No need to get banned calling people idiots every post!
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#2285 TmanVan

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:28 PM

Better option don't trade to Toronto if all you're getting is Bozak and Kadri

Keep Lou until another team's starter goes down or Toronto gets a bit more desperate and gives up more (ie when they start seeing their goalies fail again).

Pretty simple. If you're giving up an All Star goalie no matter what the contract issues you should be getting back a player who is at least a projected Stud. You don't get a "maybe, a reclamation project, a potential 2nd liner if the stars align and his head gets in it"...sounds to me like an unloading of baggage.

Bozak sure, but he's a 3C on this team and a good addition to a package. You have to see at least a Reilly, Gardiner (highly doubtful), or Grabo (possible) coming back and depending on which potentially a pick in there as well.

Otherwise you wait...you don't give away strong assets for junk if you want to remain a contender long term.


The only problem with that is its kind of a "perfect world" situation, the longer we wait the more problems that could potentially arise. As you mentioned Reilly and Gardiner are highly unlikely, so I don't see how much more we would get in holding out. Remember also that this could really piss off Luongo if we sit him on the bench as a back for half a season.

Just out of curiosity, why would you want grabovski and his cap hit, and not Kadri, who plays a similar game and appears to have a higher ceiling?
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#2286 King of the ES

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:04 PM

Better option don't trade to Toronto if all you're getting is Bozak and Kadri

Keep Lou until another team's starter goes down or Toronto gets a bit more desperate and gives up more (ie when they start seeing their goalies fail again).


Once again, you're showing a serious inability to think about these things.

If Ryan Miller goes down to an injury, do you really think that Buffalo will have interest in bringing in a guy with 9 years left on his deal? Wake up - they'd then just be in the exact same position that we're in when Miller comes back. Luongo's contract is nearly an impossible one to move. Look at how stubborn the NHL is being in the CBA negotiations with contracting rights; "the hill we'll die on" is 5 year terms. That should send a pretty strong signal that the owners are not keen on the idea of lifetime contracts, which does not bode well for Luongo's marketability.

You still have yet to explain how holding onto Luongo is in our interests. He will be worth even less in 2013. If the Canucks want to hang on to him because it's a shortened season, fine, but just be aware that the tradeoff for that is that you still have to move a goalie, probably Roberto, and it'll be even more difficult to move him in 2013 than it was in the summer. And the return will be less.
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#2287 sampy

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:31 PM

Better option don't trade to Toronto if all you're getting is Bozak and Kadri

Keep Lou until another team's starter goes down or Toronto gets a bit more desperate and gives up more (ie when they start seeing their goalies fail again).

Pretty simple. If you're giving up an All Star goalie no matter what the contract issues you should be getting back a player who is at least a projected Stud. You don't get a "maybe, a reclamation project, a potential 2nd liner if the stars align and his head gets in it"...sounds to me like an unloading of baggage.

Bozak sure, but he's a 3C on this team and a good addition to a package. You have to see at least a Reilly, Gardiner (highly doubtful), or Grabo (possible) coming back and depending on which potentially a pick in there as well.

Otherwise you wait...you don't give away strong assets for junk if you want to remain a contender long term.



Good post, hope you are right. Odds are 1 of 29 teams will give up a good players for a veteran all star starting goalie.

Edited by sampy, 10 December 2012 - 02:36 PM.

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#2288 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:56 PM

The only problem with that is its kind of a "perfect world" situation, the longer we wait the more problems that could potentially arise. As you mentioned Reilly and Gardiner are highly unlikely, so I don't see how much more we would get in holding out. Remember also that this could really piss off Luongo if we sit him on the bench as a back for half a season.

Just out of curiosity, why would you want grabovski and his cap hit, and not Kadri, who plays a similar game and appears to have a higher ceiling?


Grabo is a much better player than Kadri and completely disagree on the ceiling. Grabo was one of the few guys who played 100% every night for the leafs and I have 1/2 season tickets. Even the games he didnt produce the effort was there. He is a leader and underrated in the league. You put him on a line with Kesler and Booth and you'll see what you're thinking/hoping you'd see from Kadri.

He's had three 20+ goal seasons with the leafs 29 goals 2 yrs ago, 23 last year and had a terrible start where he was just snakebitten. He has a ton of speed, goes into traffic (yet isn't that big 5'11) plays with the type of intensity Bure did. Clearly, not the same talent level but you can see him use his speed and intensity every shift and is a good playmaker.

Shift him to the wing, and play him with Booth and Kesler, and that line will be a handful. Booth provides the size on the boards, Kelser the shot and backchecking, and Grabo the passing an speed. Not to mention, Grabo is a good defensively, only a minus player his first year with the leafs (and thats on a team that sucks so it says alot)...

He'd fit in, understand and be willing to play a two way system, has shown he can score at the NHL level and while it doesn't solve our depth issue in terms of youth, he's a piece that could certainly help us win a cup, and given he's 28, when the Sedin's leave, he and Kesler would still be around for another 4-5 years giving us time / a stop gap to find that elusive next number one.

Edited by BuretoMogilny, 10 December 2012 - 03:37 PM.

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#2289 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:02 PM

Once again, you're showing a serious inability to think about these things.

If Ryan Miller goes down to an injury, do you really think that Buffalo will have interest in bringing in a guy with 9 years left on his deal? Wake up - they'd then just be in the exact same position that we're in when Miller comes back. Luongo's contract is nearly an impossible one to move. Look at how stubborn the NHL is being in the CBA negotiations with contracting rights; "the hill we'll die on" is 5 year terms. That should send a pretty strong signal that the owners are not keen on the idea of lifetime contracts, which does not bode well for Luongo's marketability.

You still have yet to explain how holding onto Luongo is in our interests. He will be worth even less in 2013. If the Canucks want to hang on to him because it's a shortened season, fine, but just be aware that the tradeoff for that is that you still have to move a goalie, probably Roberto, and it'll be even more difficult to move him in 2013 than it was in the summer. And the return will be less.


Firstly, I don't have a serious inability to think about things, in fact I am thinking alot deeper than most who simply say, make the trade for Kadri, the kid has points in the AHL and there's nothing better, no better offers. That's pretty much the depth of your argument sir. And to clarify, you should read my posts, there is not one instance where I suggested Lou would go to Buffalo if Ryan Miller went down. Clearly, if you thought as deep as you think you do, you would realize I am talking about the "usual suspects" here, ie Toronto, FLA and perhaps one or two others that have shown interest ie Tampa etc. And who's to say if Washington's goalies don't have great starts they won't start looking either? Young unproven goalies throughout the league sir, some could succeed, some could flop, all of a sudden a market appears right????

Ok so on to the response and to counter...so what if one of FLA's goalies goes down or Markstrom doesn't give the team what they saw last year, or Tampa who's betting on a back up to show he can start, etc etc...Alot of things can change.

More importantly, you don't sell when the market is weak if you're running a business and have a strong asset. You either hold the asset till the market improves or you only sell now if you have a SOLID offer, not take the best one available just because its available, but still weak. That's called being raped, schooled, owned, taken, whatever your choose to use.

End of the day, Toronto needs Lou more than it hurts us to keep him for a season. That is our bargaining spot, and its easy to forget it and listen to Burke and allow him to send us his junk for a steal. Toronto makes the playoffs with Lou, without, ya maybe in a shortened season if they get off to a good start sure. But come playoff time they're done.

Followed by a miss the next year bc Burke did nothing to solve his goaltending issues and who looks bad? Mr. Burke. And we all know what his ego is like...he doesn;t like looking bad, and nor will the new owners accept another non playoff year.

Only think helping Burke right now is a shortened season, which may or may not work in his favour.

Also, don't forget, most of the guys on the leafs have never even seen the playoffs. Let alone their goalies. They have a real leadership void on that team and this is likely another reason why Burke wants Lou. If arguably the most important player on the team has the most playoff experience, has been to the Stanley Cup, won a gold medal, its probably helpful in the room when you finally get there, on how to prepare, deal with the pressure, let the bad games go etc...There is huge value there that offsets his age/contract. And its not like he's Rolouson and 41 yrs old. He's 33.

Burke isn't trying to get Lou just because he is a top ten goalie, he also wants him for his leadership and experience, something that team is severely lacking. That's value...so when I hear we get Toronto castoffs/spares and a 3rd liner for that I have to question what ganga people are smoking.

Edited by BuretoMogilny, 10 December 2012 - 03:15 PM.

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#2290 sampy

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:38 PM

Firstly, I don't have a serious inability to think about things, in fact I am thinking alot deeper than most who simply say, make the trade for Kadri, the kid has points in the AHL and there's nothing better, no better offers. That's pretty much the depth of your argument sir. And to clarify, you should read my posts, there is not one instance where I suggested Lou would go to Buffalo if Ryan Miller went down. Clearly, if you thought as deep as you think you do, you would realize I am talking about the "usual suspects" here, ie Toronto, FLA and perhaps one or two others that have shown interest ie Tampa etc. And who's to say if Washington's goalies don't have great starts they won't start looking either? Young unproven goalies throughout the league sir, some could succeed, some could flop, all of a sudden a market appears right????

Ok so on to the response and to counter...so what if one of FLA's goalies goes down or Markstrom doesn't give the team what they saw last year, or Tampa who's betting on a back up to show he can start, etc etc...Alot of things can change.

More importantly, you don't sell when the market is weak if you're running a business and have a strong asset. You either hold the asset till the market improves or you only sell now if you have a SOLID offer, not take the best one available just because its available, but still weak. That's called being raped, schooled, owned, taken, whatever your choose to use.

End of the day, Toronto needs Lou more than it hurts us to keep him for a season. That is our bargaining spot, and its easy to forget it and listen to Burke and allow him to send us his junk for a steal. Toronto makes the playoffs with Lou, without, ya maybe in a shortened season if they get off to a good start sure. But come playoff time they're done.

Followed by a miss the next year bc Burke did nothing to solve his goaltending issues and who looks bad? Mr. Burke. And we all know what his ego is like...he doesn;t like looking bad, and nor will the new owners accept another non playoff year.

Only think helping Burke right now is a shortened season, which may or may not work in his favour.

Also, don't forget, most of the guys on the leafs have never even seen the playoffs. Let alone their goalies. They have a real leadership void on that team and this is likely another reason why Burke wants Lou. If arguably the most important player on the team has the most playoff experience, has been to the Stanley Cup, won a gold medal, its probably helpful in the room when you finally get there, on how to prepare, deal with the pressure, let the bad games go etc...There is huge value there that offsets his age/contract. And its not like he's Rolouson and 41 yrs old. He's 33.

Burke isn't trying to get Lou just because he is a top ten goalie, he also wants him for his leadership and experience, something that team is severely lacking. That's value...so when I hear we get Toronto castoffs/spares and a 3rd liner for that I have to question what ganga people are smoking.



I agree with most of your posts. So what are a couple different trades you'd think were fair from the Leafs?
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#2291 sampy

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:40 PM

Firstly, I don't have a serious inability to think about things, in fact I am thinking alot deeper than most who simply say, make the trade for Kadri, the kid has points in the AHL and there's nothing better, no better offers. That's pretty much the depth of your argument sir. And to clarify, you should read my posts, there is not one instance where I suggested Lou would go to Buffalo if Ryan Miller went down. Clearly, if you thought as deep as you think you do, you would realize I am talking about the "usual suspects" here, ie Toronto, FLA and perhaps one or two others that have shown interest ie Tampa etc. And who's to say if Washington's goalies don't have great starts they won't start looking either? Young unproven goalies throughout the league sir, some could succeed, some could flop, all of a sudden a market appears right????

Ok so on to the response and to counter...so what if one of FLA's goalies goes down or Markstrom doesn't give the team what they saw last year, or Tampa who's betting on a back up to show he can start, etc etc...Alot of things can change.

More importantly, you don't sell when the market is weak if you're running a business and have a strong asset. You either hold the asset till the market improves or you only sell now if you have a SOLID offer, not take the best one available just because its available, but still weak. That's called being raped, schooled, owned, taken, whatever your choose to use.

End of the day, Toronto needs Lou more than it hurts us to keep him for a season. That is our bargaining spot, and its easy to forget it and listen to Burke and allow him to send us his junk for a steal. Toronto makes the playoffs with Lou, without, ya maybe in a shortened season if they get off to a good start sure. But come playoff time they're done.

Followed by a miss the next year bc Burke did nothing to solve his goaltending issues and who looks bad? Mr. Burke. And we all know what his ego is like...he doesn;t like looking bad, and nor will the new owners accept another non playoff year.

Only think helping Burke right now is a shortened season, which may or may not work in his favour.

Also, don't forget, most of the guys on the leafs have never even seen the playoffs. Let alone their goalies. They have a real leadership void on that team and this is likely another reason why Burke wants Lou. If arguably the most important player on the team has the most playoff experience, has been to the Stanley Cup, won a gold medal, its probably helpful in the room when you finally get there, on how to prepare, deal with the pressure, let the bad games go etc...There is huge value there that offsets his age/contract. And its not like he's Rolouson and 41 yrs old. He's 33.

Burke isn't trying to get Lou just because he is a top ten goalie, he also wants him for his leadership and experience, something that team is severely lacking. That's value...so when I hear we get Toronto castoffs/spares and a 3rd liner for that I have to question what ganga people are smoking.



I agree with most of your posts. Burke has more to lose than MG. So what are a couple different trades you'd think were fair with the Leafs?
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#2292 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:45 PM

Better option don't trade to Toronto if all you're getting is Bozak and Kadri

Keep Lou until another team's starter goes down or Toronto gets a bit more desperate and gives up more (ie when they start seeing their goalies fail again).

Pretty simple. If you're giving up an All Star goalie no matter what the contract issues you should be getting back a player who is at least a projected Stud. You don't get a "maybe, a reclamation project, a potential 2nd liner if the stars align and his head gets in it"...sounds to me like an unloading of baggage.

Bozak sure, but he's a 3C on this team and a good addition to a package. You have to see at least a Reilly, Gardiner (highly doubtful), or Grabo (possible) coming back and depending on which potentially a pick in there as well.

Otherwise you wait...you don't give away strong assets for junk if you want to remain a contender long term.


Rielly and Gardiner will never happen.

Even Grabo is unlikely, he would be nice but unlikely.

We are stuck with Bozak + Picks/prospects which to me isnt all that bad.
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#2293 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:51 PM

I agree with most of your posts. Burke has more to lose than MG. So what are a couple different trades you'd think were fair with the Leafs?


Well the problem is Burke is stubborn and he doesn't like going against his 'public' word and so now that he has tried to walk down Lou's price in the media it is hard for him to pay fair value without looking bad, which he hates because of his ego. And lets not discount that factor, ego in this.

My view, you aren't getting anything close to Lou's worth unless a team gets in trouble. Ie Toronto has a bad start and goalies are playing bad, Tampa, FLA etc.

Personally, I don't like sending Lou to Toronto because they just don't have the depth of youth that we need to help our team and ex Grabo, really nothing they have on their roster they would give up (and even grabo would be tough i recognize).

I think you have to wait. Shortened season will take all the media stupidity away from Lou, we have two terrific goalies, great insurance policy, and if the right trade comes up you do it, or you wait till the draft.
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#2294 King of the ES

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:52 PM

Firstly, I don't have a serious inability to think about things, in fact I am thinking alot deeper than most who simply say, make the trade for Kadri, the kid has points in the AHL and there's nothing better, no better offers. That's pretty much the depth of your argument sir.


"The kid has points in the AHL".

That is not at all the depth of my argument. He's a young player, who was drafted very high, and who has high potential. You talk about how great a talent evaluator a guy like Brian Burke is; if that's the case, explain the Tim Connolly signing. I won't even bother asking for an explanation of the Komisarek's, the Beauchemin's, the JM Liles', etc. Kadri's not getting a chance with the Leafs because they've shown a desire to just "patch it up" and hope that Kessel becomes their Crosby, carrying them to greatness.

And to clarify, you should read my posts, there is not one instance where I suggested Lou would go to Buffalo if Ryan Miller went down. Clearly, if you thought as deep as you think you do, you would realize I am talking about the "usual suspects" here, ie Toronto, FLA and perhaps one or two others that have shown interest ie Tampa etc. And who's to say if Washington's goalies don't have great starts they won't start looking either? Young unproven goalies throughout the league sir, some could succeed, some could flop, all of a sudden a market appears right????


Maybe, but probably not. Tampa gave up 2 2nds and a 3rd for Lindback; not a lot of teams that I know are willing to give up that sort of package for a backup. He'll be given a shot.

And due to the fact that there are so few buyers for Luongo, the offers just aren't going to go up very much, if they even would at all - IMO, wishful thinking on the part of the Canuck fan. This is a guy with 9 years left on his deal, at big money, who's just lost his starting job on a team where he fits in best for a first-time starter. Gillis is under pressure to move him, everyone knows this, and there's just no urgency to acquire him. If there was, the trade would've been made already.

More importantly, you don't sell when the market is weak if you're running a business and have a strong asset. You either hold the asset till the market improves or you only sell now if you have a SOLID offer, not take the best one available just because its available, but still weak. That's called being raped, schooled, owned, taken, whatever your choose to use.


OK, Jim Cramer, explain to me how "the asset" - 33 year-old goaltender with a 9-year contract that you're under pressure to move - is going to appreciate over the course of a season as our backup. You're saying that he'll be worth more in the summer of 2013, as a 1-year NHL backup with 8 years remaining at $5.3M per? Explain that one.

To build on your market analogy, losses are OK, if they are kept small. This one will be a loss. Bozak & Kadri would be an excellent return.

End of the day, Toronto needs Lou more than it hurts us to keep him for a season. That is our bargaining spot, and its easy to forget it and listen to Burke and allow him to send us his junk for a steal. Toronto makes the playoffs with Lou, without, ya maybe in a shortened season if they get off to a good start sure. But come playoff time they're done.


End of the day, you're still not thinking. What if Gillis' asking price is too high, Toronto backs off, gives Reimer a shot, Reimer excels, Leafs make the playoffs? What then, for Vancouver, in 2013? Hope and pray that some team that's desperate to acquire a 34 year-old backup goaltender for $5.3M per year until 2022 shows up as a white knight? Don't hold your breath.

Burke isn't trying to get Lou just because he is a top ten goalie, he also wants him for his leadership and experience, something that team is severely lacking. That's value...so when I hear we get Toronto castoffs/spares and a 3rd liner for that I have to question what ganga people are smoking.


"Leadership" = record of folding when it counts, stripped of captaincy, former well-documented diva...
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#2295 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:01 PM

"The kid has points in the AHL".

That is not at all the depth of my argument. He's a young player, who was drafted very high, and who has high potential. You talk about how great a talent evaluator a guy like Brian Burke is; if that's the case, explain the Tim Connolly signing. I won't even bother asking for an explanation of the Komisarek's, the Beauchemin's, the JM Liles', etc. Kadri's not getting a chance with the Leafs because they've shown a desire to just "patch it up" and hope that Kessel becomes their Crosby, carrying them to greatness.



Maybe, but probably not. Tampa gave up 2 2nds and a 3rd for Lindback; not a lot of teams that I know are willing to give up that sort of package for a backup. He'll be given a shot.

And due to the fact that there are so few buyers for Luongo, the offers just aren't going to go up very much, if they even would at all - IMO, wishful thinking on the part of the Canuck fan. This is a guy with 9 years left on his deal, at big money, who's just lost his starting job on a team where he fits in best for a first-time starter. Gillis is under pressure to move him, everyone knows this, and there's just no urgency to acquire him. If there was, the trade would've been made already.



OK, Jim Cramer, explain to me how "the asset" - 33 year-old goaltender with a 9-year contract that you're under pressure to move - is going to appreciate over the course of a season as our backup. You're saying that he'll be worth more in the summer of 2013, as a 1-year NHL backup with 8 years remaining at $5.3M per? Explain that one.

To build on your market analogy, losses are OK, if they are kept small. This one will be a loss. Bozak & Kadri would be an excellent return.



End of the day, you're still not thinking. What if Gillis' asking price is too high, Toronto backs off, gives Reimer a shot, Reimer excels, Leafs make the playoffs? What then, for Vancouver, in 2013? Hope and pray that some team that's desperate to acquire a 34 year-old backup goaltender for $5.3M per year until 2022 shows up as a white knight? Don't hold your breath.



"Leadership" = record of folding when it counts, stripped of captaincy, former well-documented diva...


1. Kadri has shown his potential = 3 yrs can't break one of the worst lineups in the NHL, and you named a bunch of players that have who you say suck...so...kinda argued against yourself there hey? Again, look at my points about transition from AHL to NHL, his issues, the oppty he's had given the lack of a center in Toronto and the crap team they have, yet he hasn't made it. Its not from anything other than a lack of the ability to make the jump. He is not going to be a top 2 line NHL'er.

2. Yes Lindback will get a shot, but if that team gets bad goaltending early, Stevie Y starts rethinking. As with FLA.

3. Big money total sure, big money cap hit no. He is actually paid reasonably compared to the other top ten goalies in the league on a cap hit basis, its an excuse, teams care more about cap hit so they can stay competitive vs. total dollars, as much as the owners complain about the issues right now with the CBA, a team like toronto really doesn't care what it pays if it can win, they are the richest team in the NHL, Tampa, FLA sure, but if it means the playoffs and a cup run, and that for an extended period (ie you have stamkos, hedman, and a legitimate number one goalie, you're gonna have a shot for the next 5-7 years min that Lou is around and number 1. Rolouson is playing well and he's 41, Brodeur is 40, Hasek played to 40 on an on).

4. As for appreciation of an asset I didn't state that. I stated that the market for a number one goalie would / can improve in that time given changes in the dynamics of such stated market. I would assume if Lou is here, the Nucks will split games or pretty close so not to hurt his asset value, and keep both sharp for the playoffs should either player go down. That being said, if you read my other posts about how many unproven goalies there are in the league, Tampa, Fla, Wash, issues in Philly etc, Toronto, a market can open rather quickly when a team has issues and there;s a guy name Roberto Luongo available simply for a depth roster player, a strong prospect and a pick.

5. You want to question Lou's leadership, experience, work ethic, etc that's fine. Its absurd and reeks of I hate Lou vs I love Lou. I actually prefer Schnieder and think trading Lou is right, just not for nothing. If Schnieds wasn't around we'd all still be very happy with mr. Loungo as our goalie. He is the best goalie in nucks history has been to game 7, has won a gold medal, not many goalies can say that. You don't do that by being garbage.

Edited by BuretoMogilny, 10 December 2012 - 04:03 PM.

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#2296 King of the ES

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:14 PM

1. Kadri has shown his potential = 3 yrs can't break one of the worst lineups in the NHL, and you named a bunch of players that have who you say suck...so...kinda argued against yourself there hey? Again, look at my points about transition from AHL to NHL, his issues, the oppty he's had given the lack of a center in Toronto and the crap team they have, yet he hasn't made it. Its not from anything other than a lack of the ability to make the jump. He is not going to be a top 2 line NHL'er.


Not arguing against myself. Toronto's management team have simply been too impatient. In Kadri's 51 NHL games, he has 19 points, which is encouraging. And his AHL numbers speak for themselves. Your "points" about transitioning from the AHL to the NHL have no basis to them, they're just your opinion. Either size or speed is not needed, as evidenced last year here by Cody Hodgson.

3. Big money total sure, big money cap hit no. He is actually paid reasonably compared to the other top ten goalies in the league on a cap hit basis, its an excuse, teams care more about cap hit so they can stay competitive vs. total dollars, as much as the owners complain about the issues right now with the CBA, a team like toronto really doesn't care what it pays if it can win, they are the richest team in the NHL, Tampa, FLA sure, but if it means the playoffs and a cup run, and that for an extended period (ie you have stamkos, hedman, and a legitimate number one goalie, you're gonna have a shot for the next 5-7 years min that Lou is around and number 1. Rolouson is playing well and he's 41, Brodeur is 40, Hasek played to 40 on an on).


Cap hit is big enough that he'll be expected to start over the duration of his contract. Not many teams that I know of will be keen to allocate $5.3M of their cap to a guy who would otherwise play 25 - 30% of games as a backup. Again, wishful thinking and denial. The cap hit is significant, far moreso than the actual dollars, of which a disproportionate share have been paid for already.

4. As for appreciation of an asset I didn't state that. I stated that the market for a number one goalie would / can improve in that time given changes in the dynamics of such stated market. I would assume if Lou is here, the Nucks will split games or pretty close so not to hurt his asset value, and keep both sharp for the playoffs should either player go down. That being said, if you read my other posts about how many unproven goalies there are in the league, Tampa, Fla, Wash, issues in Philly etc, Toronto, a market can open rather quickly when a team has issues and there;s a guy name Roberto Luongo available simply for a depth roster player, a strong prospect and a pick.


What if they split games, and Schneider badly outplays him? Then what? Whoops!

...and if he badly outplays Schneider, another "Whoops!" occurs, because we're then trading the better-playing goaltender, which makes little sense on a veteran team. All the while, we have two pissed off goaltenders. How do you think Schneider will feel about having the franchise's best goaltender, of all time, watching over his shoulder as a backup, highly, highly motivated to perform, so as to GTFO of the city as fast as possible? Warm welcome to the guy being handed the football, indeed.
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#2297 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:21 PM

Not arguing against myself. Toronto's management team have simply been too impatient. In Kadri's 51 NHL games, he has 19 points, which is encouraging. And his AHL numbers speak for themselves. Your "points" about transitioning from the AHL to the NHL have no basis to them, they're just your opinion. Either size or speed is not needed, as evidenced last year here by Cody Hodgson.



Cap hit is big enough that he'll be expected to start over the duration of his contract. Not many teams that I know of will be keen to allocate $5.3M of their cap to a guy who would otherwise play 25 - 30% of games as a backup. Again, wishful thinking and denial. The cap hit is significant, far moreso than the actual dollars, of which a disproportionate share have been paid for already.



What if they split games, and Schneider badly outplays him? Then what? Whoops!

...and if he badly outplays Schneider, another "Whoops!" occurs, because we're then trading the better-playing goaltender, which makes little sense on a veteran team. All the while, we have two pissed off goaltenders. How do you think Schneider will feel about having the franchise's best goaltender, of all time, watching over his shoulder as a backup, highly, highly motivated to perform, so as to GTFO of the city as fast as possible? Warm welcome to the guy being handed the football, indeed.


Kadri does not have the skill set the Hodgson had. Kadri was not the captain of a world junior team if we're going to go there. Big difference in committment, effort, etc. Hodgson, works out with Roberts, Kadri works out with a bag of potato chips.

I don't think any team in the NHL beleives Luongo is 5.3 ml for a backup, that's not why you trade for him, and its a bit of a falacious argument. Every team knows he is still a top 10 goalie, its just that we have another one now and there's not really room for both - ie the reason Toronto is trying to hold us ransom, not bc Lou is a backup sir.

And know what, if Lou plays and pulls what Thomas did on Rask and wins a Cup here I don't think anyone would really care. So its a win win for us. Schnieds will know Lou is going unless that happens and will suck it up in a shortened season to ensure the team gets the best outcome if he's team guy, which he has clearly shown he is.
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#2298 King of the ES

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:57 PM

Kadri does not have the skill set the Hodgson had. Kadri was not the captain of a world junior team if we're going to go there. Big difference in committment, effort, etc. Hodgson, works out with Roberts, Kadri works out with a bag of potato chips.


Actually, Kadri also works out with Roberts.

You and Dallas Eakins clearly aren't aware of how "bulking up" works. There's no such thing as adding weight that is "pure" muscle. If you're deliberately adding weight, it's going to show up as both muscle and fat. Gary Roberts' magical diet of superfoods will not trump the laws of thermodynamics. If the goal is to gain weight, some of that weight will be fat. Period.

And know what, if Lou plays and pulls what Thomas did on Rask and wins a Cup here I don't think anyone would really care. So its a win win for us. Schnieds will know Lou is going unless that happens and will suck it up in a shortened season to ensure the team gets the best outcome if he's team guy, which he has clearly shown he is.


In 95 years of the NHL, how often has that happened? There are exceptions to every rule. It's usually not a good bet to wager on the exception happening.

Edited by King of the ES, 10 December 2012 - 04:57 PM.

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#2299 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:03 PM

Actually, Kadri also works out with Roberts.

You and Dallas Eakins clearly aren't aware of how "bulking up" works. There's no such thing as adding weight that is "pure" muscle. If you're deliberately adding weight, it's going to show up as both muscle and fat. Gary Roberts' magical diet of superfoods will not trump the laws of thermodynamics. If the goal is to gain weight, some of that weight will be fat. Period.



In 95 years of the NHL, how often has that happened? There are exceptions to every rule. It's usually not a good bet to wager on the exception happening.


Lol I guess the rest of the world has it wrong and more body fat is better than less. buddy did you do the analysis for kadri at camp? do you think they probably look at multiple measures of fitness? maybe maybe? and just maybe he was not ready thus the comments in the press?

are people really this stupid? wow our education system is failing miserably

Edited by BuretoMogilny, 10 December 2012 - 05:05 PM.

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#2300 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:03 PM

I have provided numerous points based in fact


No not really, your "facts" have been:

KADRII CAN'T MAKE THE LEAFS!!! ZOMG!!! IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTNAD!!!!

Then when I reply and give you facts, you balantly ignore what you have no response to and continue with the Caps lock schrade.

ZOOOMMMMGGGGG!!!! NO!!!!

You can't handle dealing with that and its fine.

Good on ya 21 yr old...go ask mommy for the keys to her car and your allowance.


Thanks.. that hurt.... I think I'm going to cry myself to sleep tonight. :emot-parrot:

3 years isnt a chance? Invited to main camp 3 years running isnt a chance? Playing 50 games in the NHL isnt a chance? Plenty of depth scoring? The leafs? What bizzaro land are you in dude. Why is JVR being moved to center if they have a plethora of scoring centers moron? why did they sign a mellon head in Connoly if they were strong down the middle? Why is a guy who people agree would be a third line center in Vancouver (Bozak) playing their first line if they are strong down the middle.


Omg he was invited to main camp!!! Why didn't he make the team!!! Frank Corrado was invited to our main camp last year!! Was that a fair shot aswell???

Is getting called up only when the injuries are so bad, that there is no one else to call up a fair shot?

Then despite him coming up and being one of the better players, he still gets sent down. Is that fair?


I guess you didn't read (again), what I said was:

"A star goalie like Lu or for Kadri to step up as a depth scorer? (Which they have plenty of, all of which are unpreforming)"

You think: McArthur, Lombardi, Connolly, Kulemin, Grabovski, JVR, Bozak, Frattin exc. Aren't capable of being prpductive top 9/top 6 players? Give me a break. They all can, and they are all being paid be money so they will get the chances above a guy like Kadri anyways. It's called politics. It's become a sad reality of sports.


now the implication of all the above since i have to repeat it time and time again for you is this.

1. If you have a crappy team
2. An abesence of strong centers who can score

This equals opportunity for a young scoring center to take a spot. Why you can't comprehend this I have no idea but I have said it over and over and over.

3. He has not made the team, and yet the leafs are still in need of that player so much so they signed a guy with concussion problems, moved a third line center to first, and traded for a winger they are moving to center.

AGAIN this means for three years there has been opportunity

HAS NAZEM KADRI TAKEN ADV OF THAT OPPTY??????? No!!!!!!!!!!!

Has he come to camp out of shape? YES!!!!!!!

What does that say to his ability and comittment?????? All of those issues combined along with my view on his talent....

But you don't accept that, your argument is he got points in the ahl, he got points in the ahl, he got points in the ahl....they traded ma cody, they tradin ma lou...

Again, you don't seem to quite get what it takes for an athlete to jump from the junior ranks, to minor pro, to pro. You can state all you want about his points in the AHL, you can even argue they haven't been nicey nicey to him and poor little Nazem needs his coaches and gm to be nicey nicey to him because he is fragile like a pretty and delicate flower that needs to bloom.

However, committment, desire and effort separate those who make it from those who don't. You have a very simple view on what it takes to make it = points. And that's fine you don't get it..its ok.


If you don't think he has committment you should look a little closer into this entire situation.

You are so ignorant that you refuse to even consider my points on these subjects, so all I have left to say for now is this.

1. has he made the most of his opportunity you ask? He hasn't broken out, but he hasn't been terrible either. Infact I don't see any reason why he was sent down last time aside from politics, he was playing better than alot of players on the club, he was a + so he wasn't a liability, the team was winning, and they send him down. I'm still puzzled as to why.

He has made strides by leaps and bounds, comes up and plays well, brings some consistentcy & is a + player there, they are winning and playing well as a team. yet on a team full of inconsistentcy & huge defensive liabilites (minus's players) he get's sent down in the middle of a winning stretch.

Does that make sense to you? Damn sure doesn't to me.
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#2301 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:06 PM

I think if i sharted a retarded digested clam out of my behind it would be smarter than smashian kassian and king of es.

wow great comp frankie corrado, a perfect example of your lack of critical thinking. you see kid when you try to frame an argument try to use a similar player at least.

1. Don't choose a first year dman for whom there is no spot on the roster vs a 3rd year player who has had a spot open for 3 years and shows up out of shape
2. Don't choose a what 6th round draft pick? vs a 6 th overall
3. Don't choose a player that has gone from 6th round pick to invitee to the world juniors bc in fact it shows you up, bc he is exceeding expectations while your choice is failing miserably.

that's just some basic simple logic you might want to employ going forward as you have a real lack of ability to think critically.

"You think: McArthur, Lombardi, Connolly, Kulemin, Grabovski, JVR, Bozak, Frattin exc. Aren't capable of being prpductive top 9/top 6 players? Give me a break. They all can, and they are all being paid be money so they will get the chances above a guy like Kadri anyways. It's called politics"

LOL!!

Lombardi is a concussion away from the end of his career and plays the 4th line
Connolly (see above on the concussions as well) was brought in because they had no other choice since the kid they drafted to fill that offensive center spot sucked balls - his name is Kadri
Grabo is their second and there solidly yes
Frattin has done nothing and is fringe
Bozak is a third line center on any other team and even many on this site say 3rd in van, again because no one else took the spot.

the rest aren't centers :)

learn to argue / debate with well thought out points not because I think so's.

I really don't understand why you think politics is the reason a player isn't given a chance and not his ability. It really speaks to an entitelement attitude of gen y that thinks you don't have to earn things. That you have a right to a spot in this world, and if you don't get it, its not your fault but someone elses. It speaks to an internal view that people are 'owed' things and if they don't get them well its not because they didn't earn it, its because they were screwed over.

As I said, go get mommy's keys and get your allowance and take your girlfriend in mommy's bmw to earls and have a nice evening acting important. One day you'll learn you have to EARN things kid.

Edited by BuretoMogilny, 10 December 2012 - 05:21 PM.

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#2302 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:07 PM

wow...lol...now you and your kadri lover friends are just reaching new lows with that comment

Lol...Brian Burke knows less about talent evaluation than people on this board...wow...ok...good for you, I am glad you live in your happy neverland place..must be nice there, are there sunny skies, bunnies, and streams of chocolate there too?


:lol: As have you.

Obvious trolling is obvious.

Idiot as for the banning? Same thing happened I made a point about Schnieds being better, got flamed, called a troll like you're saying now because I stated an opinion based on actual knowledge of hockey talent, vs I love my Lou Lou that's on here..got flamed by people etc....and know what buddy, mr I'll call you a troll because I can't handle the fact that mr.BuretoMogilny is right...you know what, guess what?

I WAS RIGHT


What was your comment then? and we will assess if it was worth of the ban of not.
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#2303 King of the ES

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:07 PM

Lol I guess the rest of the world has it wrong and more body fat is better than less. buddy did you do the analysis for kadri at camp? do you think they probably look at multiple measures of fitness? maybe maybe? and just maybe he was not ready thus the comments in the press?

are people really this stupid? wow our education system is failing miserably


At reading comprehension, and in your case, apparently yes.

Show me where I said that bodyfat was "better". I'm saying that it's an unavoidable derivative of bulking.
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#2304 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:10 PM

I think if i sharted a retarded digested clam out of my behind it would be smarter than smashian kassian and king of es.


You probably have the IQ of that clam, but unfortuantly for you myself and King seem to be able to provide a much more logical argument than your personal attacks. lol
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#2305 Vansicle

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:17 PM

wow...lol...now you and your kadri lover friends are just reaching new lows with that comment

Lol...Brian Burke knows less about talent evaluation than people on this board...wow...ok...good for you, I am glad you live in your happy neverland place..must be nice there, are there sunny skies, bunnies, and streams of chocolate there too?

I've never even heard of the kid, so to suggest that I am a "Kadri lover" is a stretch. A stretch that allows you to know all there is to know.
You aren't allowing for the fact that you may be wrong. I am allowing for the fact that I may be. You see, when you paint the world as black and white, as you have, you allow for only two possible realities. Whereas, if you paint the world in the various shades of gray that make up reaity, the world is made up of numerous possibilies. In this world it is both possibe that Kadri is much better than you claim he is, and that you know far less about hockey than you claim to.
It's called a false dichotomy, and you have constructed a giant one, wherein anyone who disagrees with you must a) want to have intimate relations with Kadri, B) knows nothing about hockey, and c) lives in a land that is nice and where chocalate flows like rivers and there are sunny skies and bunnies (actually, most places are nice and have sunny skies and bunnies from time to time - maybe if you lived in such a place you wouldn't be so filled with hate and bile).
In the world I live in, I am allowing for the possibility that Brian Bruke doesn't know everything there is to know about talent, as indicated by the sword of Damocles that hangs over his job. I am saying, no matter how bad you think Kadri may be, he most certainly has NHL potential. But however good he may be, it's also quite possible Brian Burke's head is so far up his own keester that he can't see that. I didn't say Kadri was the next Joe Sakic, that was you. But I did say he could be, and for you to say that he absolutely is not, shows that you know far less about hockey than you claim.
Now I must go. I have streaming chocolate to feed my sunshine bunnies.

Edited by Vansicle, 10 December 2012 - 05:19 PM.

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Snake Doctor, on 23 May 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:snapback.png

Miller is not on our list. It's Lack as our #1. There is no reason we would have traded both Schnieder and Luongo if we never intended to give Lack the #1 starting job.  Furthermore, the salary and term Miller is looking for is not in our favor.

 


#2306 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:23 PM

You probably have the IQ of that clam, but unfortuantly for you myself and King seem to be able to provide a much more logical argument than your personal attacks. lol


Lmao...oh ok Nazem Kadri hasnt made the NHL because he is soo goood ,but the crap leafs don't want to win that's not their job, they've been trying to lose to stack up on first overall picks, so they will play worse players bc they are out to get him, and then they can screw him over some more by getting high picks and playing them instead...ya that's the ticket.

makes sense, you're right you win.

and read the whole post not just the part on sharting...no reference to that hey since it kinda just knocks your silly points out of the water, pretty much like everything else i have said.

I win you lose.

Now go gas up momma's car.

Edited by BuretoMogilny, 10 December 2012 - 05:27 PM.

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#2307 smurf47

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:27 PM

:lol: As have you.

Obvious trolling is obvious.



What was your comment then? and we will assess if it was worth of the ban of not.

:lol: As have you.

Obvious trolling is obvious.



What was your comment then? and we will assess if it was worth of the ban of not.

Don;t engage him...hes well on his way to another banishment !!
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#2308 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:29 PM

At reading comprehension, and in your case, apparently yes.

Show me where I said that bodyfat was "better". I'm saying that it's an unavoidable derivative of bulking.


...one word

implication
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#2309 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:31 PM

Don;t engage him...hes well on his way to another banishment !!


lol...seems like that happens when the gang of 21 yr olds can't handle arguments that show how simple their logic is huh? Just like the -27 hits i got on my schnieder will stay lou will be traded thread 2 yrs ago and all the vitreol that came with it...

yet back then i was told i didn't judge talent, know what i was talking about, etc etc...

sounds familiar hey? lol

yup...
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#2310 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:34 PM

Don;t engage him...hes well on his way to another banishment !!


I certainly hope so.
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